I am almost getting the feeling that this might be worth just calling a brand new class. Mainly because the grit mechanic is a lot of the classes "thing," and its not really anything like what a fighter gets.
As an aside . . . deadly aim seems like it could be really nasty with a full BaB class that only has to hit touch AC at close range.
I'd be a lot happier with grit recharging on a natural 20 on things attempted outside of attack rolls or saves in combat. While its nice that a guideline (5% chance of working) is provided, it still seems kind of nebulous, and I'm not sure I want to have to stop and figure out if a given "long shot" really would only work 5% of the time.
I'm also kind of interested to see how this mechanic would work with hero points, since that would alter the actual likely outcome, but not the base % chance for something to succeed.
I think the brave and tough ability should just go back to bravery and allow them to have two good save throws. After all the combat style while really neat isn't quite as powerful as many others.
The brave and tough ability reads as a cop out to me since it just about gives the gunslinger a good fortitude save anyways (+11 instead of +12).
I thought it was a completely new class. Is it supposed to be a sub-class of fighter?
If it's a sub-class of fighter, then that means it qualifies for feats with fighter level requirements. That could be good or bad. On the other hand, if it's not, then it can't qualify for fighter feats, which again, can be a good or bad thing.
It's an alternate class for the fighter -- it is a fighter just with completely different abilities.
Which is needed I think -- it will be hard to make the gun's damage effective without weapon specialization and what not.
However, that opens up a bit of a can of worms. Perhaps not for the gunslinger, but for the Ninja. That is, archetypes. Some of them would be valid with a sub-class (depends on what features they replace) ,but those archetypes were not balanced against the sub-class. There could be some interesting synergies.
I like what we've seen of ultimate combat so far. The only thing that I personally would like to see for the gunslinger is the Safe Shot ability that the other two ranged fighter archetypes get (and yes I am aware there's a difference between archetypes and alternate classes). IMO a fighting style that completely revolves around a ranged weapon means that poor guy is gonna be in melee a lot Having to take a feat in order to spend one of their grit points to shoot freely puts a large limiter on how often they can avoid provoking aoos for effectively swinging their chosen sword. I'd be happier seeing it as a baseline deed to pick from, but I also noticed that the zen archer doesn't get safe shot (unless I overlooked it somehow) but then again they still have their fists of fury for when they're forced into melee.
To sum up I like what I'm seeing, my only actual concern is that with the short range on guns the gunslinger will be so close as to consistently be provoking aoos.
I'm not sure if I'm missing something, but it costs 11 GP (10 for Black Powder, 1 for the bullet) each time you make an attack roll. Gunslingers will be be burning party gold disproportionately. It seems like the equivalent of charging the Alchemists for their extracts.
I'd strongly recommend allowing gunslingers to craft their own ammunition, and potentially replacement weapons, otherwise, if a mishap occurs at 1st-2nd level, they're a well-armoured peasant with esoteric weapons lore.
You could limit the use of the ammunition they create by having it only work for their custom weapons - calibrated amounts of powder, specific bore for the bullets, etc.
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I'm not sure if I'm missing something, but it costs 11 GP (10 for Black Powder, 1 for the bullet) each time you make an attack roll. Gunslingers will be be burning party gold disproportionately. It seems like the equivalent of charging the Alchemists for their extracts.
I'd strongly recommend allowing gunslingers to craft their own ammunition, and potentially replacement weapons, otherwise, if a mishap occurs at 1st-2nd level, they're a well-armoured peasant with esoteric weapons lore.
You could limit the use of the ammunition they create by having it only work for their custom weapons - calibrated amounts of powder, specific bore for the bullets, etc.
Yeah, this is another big issue (at least in my eyes). 11 GP per attack until 11th level is a big expenditure until it doesn't matter anymore. Even then you have to take two feats (Secret Stash Deed and Signature Deed), and then the bullets and powder are just appearing from nothingness. Even a simple "Making a bullet takes a Craft (Firearms) DC XX check, which represents an hour of work. Making a dose of black powder takes a Craft (Firearms) DC YY, also representing an hour of work. Gunslingers get a +Z to these checks to make tailored ammunition usable only by themselves." would suffice.
However, regarding mishaps, I can see wanting to make sure that you always have a point of Grit ready in order to use the Quick Clear deed, even though it kinda goes against the "feel" of the class. I can also see Gunslingers with the Secret Stash Deed just blowing all of their remaining Grit points at the end of the night (if any) on magically finding extra doses of powder and extra rounds of ammo.
The Gunslinger doesn't share or mirror any abilities or class features with the Fighter, so I'm a bit confused as to how its supposed to be an archtype. I say just make it a separate class and give it a good Fort save. The grit and deeds abilities are too robust compared to all the archtypes that have been presented.
Overall I like the Gunslinger, but as presented it is a full base class.
Ninja - from what I've read, I like it. Its a hybrid Rogue/Monk with a few Alchemist type things (poison/bombs). Its a nice compromise between historical ninja and tropy anime ninja.
Samurai - I'm very happy with this. I was really worried this would be an unarmored, anime sword guy. Sword-guy is already covered by several builds. Instead, this Samurai hearkens back to the 3.5 Knight and its ability to not die.
Are Samurai and Cavalier orders meant to be interchangeable? If not, it might be better just to make Samurai and Ronin two different artchtypes (unless there are going to be more types of Samurai later)
The major thing that I'm concerned about is that I'm not sure the DPR if the gunslinger scales particularly well.
Touch Attacks are nice but the gunslinger's to hit with a full BAB is more than respectable. Against all but the very hardest foes he should be able to hit with his primary attack anyway.
It seems that even with the Vital Strike Chain he's going to lag way behind the archer build in terms of DPR.
Now if the final release weapons have greater capacity so that the gunslinger can actually make more then 1 attack per round then things change.
However that opens the issue of whether multiple ranged touch attacks at full BAB are properly scaled as the hit percentage of tertiary and quaternary iteratives will be much higher than they are with regular ranged attacks.
If you had the secret stash deed feat, you could spend any remaining grit when you go to bed to gain more ammo. also, starting at 11th level you could take signature deed and have unlimited ammo as long as you had at least 1 grit.
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The Gunslinger doesn't share or mirror any abilities or class features with the Fighter, so I'm a bit confused as to how its supposed to be an archtype. I say just make it a separate class and give it a good Fort save. The grit and deeds abilities are too robust compared to all the archtypes that have been presented.
That's why it's not an archetype; it's a sub-class!
Overall I like the Gunslinger, but as presented it is a full base class.
I dunno... "The gunslinger is an alternate class for the fighter core class." Seems like it is a sub-class to me...
All snark aside, I can see it as it's own base close as it really doesn't share too much with the Fighter class (Bonus feat on every forth level, Brave and Tough is similar to Bravery, and Gun Training is similar to Weapon Training), but honestly, I'm fine either way. I can see them not wanting people to mix Fighter/Gunslinger though, which I suspect is part of the reason it is a sub-class.Are Samurai and Cavalier orders meant to be interchangeable? If not, it might be better just to make Samurai and Ronin two different artchtypes (unless there are going to be more types of Samurai later)
Wrong forum, but...
"A samurai may instead elect to dedicate himself to one of the orders listed under the cavalier description (see page 34 of the Pathfinder RPG Advanced Player’s Guide), but such samurai are rare." So... yes. I can also see additional Samurai orders though, as "The samurai cannot change his order without undertaking a lengthy process to dedicate himself to a new cause. When this choice is made, he immediately loses all of the benefits from his old order. He must then follow the edicts of his new order for one entire level without gaining any benefits from that order." seems a bit much if you only have the Order of the Warrior and Ronin (which does something different anyways). Plus, there is the Cavalier Orders in the APG and (almost undoubtedly) additional Cavalier Orders in the APG
The major thing that I'm concerned about is that I'm not sure the DPR if the gunslinger scales particularly well.
Touch Attacks are nice but the gunslinger's to hit with a full BAB is more than respectable. Against all but the very hardest foes he should be able to hit with his primary attack anyway.
It seems that even with the Vital Strike Chain he's going to lag way behind the archer build in terms of DPR.
Now if the final release weapons have greater capacity so that the gunslinger can actually make more then 1 attack per round then things change.
However that opens the issue of whether multiple ranged touch attacks at full BAB are properly scaled as the hit percentage of tertiary and quaternary iteratives will be much higher than they are with regular ranged attacks.
I do agree Vuron with a lot of the concerns you raise.
I could see some interesting options using pin down from lvl 7 on to make this even more abusive if guns get a greater capacity.
My first impression is simply I love it, I want more to be done with it, and I believe it should be a BASE CLASS. Also, it makes sense for someone to multiclass Gunslinger/Fighter if they wanted to, I don't see why not?
If it remains an alternate class, this makes me ask one question --- will we see new feats, ability choices, etc. with Alternate Classes as we do Base Classes? If not, I don't even want to bother with Alternate Classes. If they're not being supported with even a little extra material, I can't see the point in playing one. While the base classes hog all the attention, the alternates get hosed.
No one wants to be the kid at the party not getting a share of the candy.
This is a Fighter alternate class? Really? That... just doesn't make sense. I think they are just pulling this "alternate class" stuff out of the air.
When I first read it, I was thinking to myself, "They could have just made this a fighter arch-type." As it turns out, they did.
This is a Fighter alternate class? Really? That... just doesn't make sense. I think they are just pulling this "alternate class" stuff out of the air.
On this one, I agree. You can only see the Fighter in the framework if you look really hard. With the grit, deeds, etc... I think this one really has the feel and makings of a great, memorable base class.
The Ninja and Samurai, however, are very clearly alternates for Rogue and Cavalier.
I'm not happy with it.
The fact that they can full attack with firearms of this time period just bothers me. I would have really preferred a system in which they dealt more damage with firearms (like the monk or the alchemist) and maintained the idea of shooting once per round (twice perhaps with the appropriate Deed). Being able to drop the cost of that particular Deed to 0 grit and fire off seven shots per round (if dual wielding pistols) is just too much for me.
I'm actually pretty sad, because my world has gunslingers (goblins are renowned engineers and love explosives). I'll probably be rewriting the class.
I like Grit and Deeds as the class's "thing," though.
You could take away the abilities to make full attack actions and give them the vital strike feat tree for free. probably the route I would go anyways.
i absolutely love this class and look forward to playing it very soon. in the game i run currently, the party is almost in Alkenstar and one of the major BBEG was going to be a fighter with guns, but with this class now, i will use it and it came at just the perfect time. he will be aroun 10th level or so, and i look forward to posting about this experience asap after using him this friday.
the only thing i dont like about the class is the Stunning Shot Deed at 19th level. i think you should be able to spend 1 grit point and get the effects of the stun along with the critical hit and no grit gained due to it. but thats just me. it can stay the same, but i wouldnt use it as it doesnt fit my play style. but i love the class. especially if you can get revolvers from Alkenstar ;)
i also love the iconic btw.
All I can think when I look at the gunslinger is, "Man, 1st level is going to suck."
1st level may suck . . . but you have a gun . . . ;)
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My first impression is simply I love it, I want more to be done with it, and I believe it should be a BASE CLASS. Also, it makes sense for someone to multiclass Gunslinger/Fighter if they wanted to, I don't see why not?
If it remains an alternate class, this makes me ask one question --- will we see new feats, ability choices, etc. with Alternate Classes as we do Base Classes? If not, I don't even want to bother with Alternate Classes. If they're not being supported with even a little extra material, I can't see the point in playing one. While the base classes hog all the attention, the alternates get hosed.
No one wants to be the kid at the party not getting a share of the candy.
Except your Gunslinger can take all those Fighter Feats, so he's being supported alongside the Fighter.
i love the Gunslinger, it is such a cool class, i cant wait to try it out, my only question is why is it a subclass to the fighter, it seems so unique why not just make it its own class. either way i just love the class.
i love the Gunslinger, it is such a cool class, i cant wait to try it out, my only question is why is it a subclass to the fighter, it seems so unique why not just make it its own class. either way i just love the class.
I'm going to guess that it's so they qualify for fighter only feats weapon spec etc.
I'm going to guess that it's so they qualify for fighter only feats weapon spec etc.
I really think this is the case -- many people are already getting a bit miffed that the "fighter only" feats are seeing so much action with other classes (zen archer, samurai, magus, eldritch knight, etc) that I believe they figured giving another class access without actually being a fighter could cause a small riot.
I love the way they did it. With quick draw, i just need to keep 8 guns (pistols) on me. Then Quick draw, fire, free action drop... full BaB, and that lets me get off 4 range attack per full attack round for 2 full attack rounds.
Like they do in the 3 musketeers.
i love the Gunslinger, it is such a cool class, i cant wait to try it out, my only question is why is it a subclass to the fighter, it seems so unique why not just make it its own class. either way i just love the class.I'm going to guess that it's so they qualify for fighter only feats weapon spec etc.
actually when i read the class i dont remember reading that they can qualify for those feats although i may have missed it. i am far from perfect. i actually like the class (and the players in my group would tell you this is true), not because of its abilities but because of its flavor. flavor first, mechanics second for me. I do like the abilities, but i dont like a class cause they get one ability that makes them good/broken (in some peoples opinions.) just like i dont focus too much on magic items. a lot of my gms have to GIVE me magic items cause i dont put so much emphasis on the importance of them. they are good, dont get me wrong, but im playing PF to play a character, kind of like acting in a play, and discovering more about the character in the story in which he is being played, not on the mechanics. mechanics do lead me to play more classes than others, but im not opposed to playing anything. ill just play some classes more than others.
I love the way they did it. With quick draw, i just need to keep 8 guns (pistols) on me. Then Quick draw, fire, free action drop... full BaB, and that lets me get off 4 range attack per full attack round for 2 full attack rounds.
Like they do in the 3 musketeers.
This post makes my head hurt.
That's even before you get into the DR vs materials issues. Do I have to purchase adamantite shot?
i love the Gunslinger, it is such a cool class, i cant wait to try it out, my only question is why is it a subclass to the fighter, it seems so unique why not just make it its own class. either way i just love the class.I'm going to guess that it's so they qualify for fighter only feats weapon spec etc.
The easiest solution to that and still keep it as a Base Class is to simply give it an ability to count its levels as a Fighter for the purpose of Fighter-only feats
The first "gun fighters" were known to wear what is referred to as a 'brace' of pistols.
They were quite adept at quick draw, as the pistols only had one (or some times two, because of more barrels) shots.
SO they would load, 2,4 or 6 pistols and fire and then drop the expended weapon.
Later cavalry versions of the gun fighter actually tied the pistols to sashes that hung from the necks, so they could drop the pistols and they would just dangle, allowing them to draw another, they would make "ride by attacks" with blaring pistols and then ride like hades to clear the combat.
In the early 'western'/civil war era days, the brace of pistols dropped down to two or three pistols because of the rotating cylinder technology that had been invented (or revolver)
the reason to keep 2 or 3 was, because they didnt reload very fast or easily until the advent of the self contained cartridge, what most modern day people refer to as 'bullets'.
Once the self contained cartridge become common place (mason/richards conversions of colt black powder revolvers, and the peace maker and remington revolvers) the "brace of pistols" disappeared due to the fact the they could be readily and easily reloaded, so the "drop pistols" were no longer needed, that and they cost a few months salary for most common folk.
Hollywood would have you beleive "gunfighters" ran about with a pair of peacemakers, but once the peacemaker was common, they only carried one.
The two gun (or more) fighter was in 1850-60s and earlier eras.
So the idea of rapid gun fire was around as soon as pistols were, "Carribean" Pirates were often told to have worn as many as six pistols specifically for this purpose.
The first "gun fighters" were known to wear what is referred to as a 'brace' of pistols.
They were quite adept at quick draw, as the pistols only had one (or some times two, because of more barrels) shots.SO they would load, 2,4 or 6 pistols and fire and then drop the expended weapon.
Later cavalry versions of the gun fighter actually tied the pistols to sashes that hung from the necks, so they could drop the pistols and they would just dangle, allowing them to draw another, they would make "ride by attacks" with blaring pistols and then ride like hades to clear the combat.In the early 'western'/civil war era days, the brace of pistols dropped down to two or three pistols because of the rotating cylinder technology that had been invented (or revolver)
the reason to keep 2 or 3 was, because they didnt reload very fast or easily until the advent of the self contained cartridge, what most modern day people refer to as 'bullets'.
Once the self contained cartridge become common place (mason/richards conversions of colt black powder revolvers, and the peace maker and remington revolvers) the "brace of pistols" disappeared due to the fact the they could be readily and easily reloaded, so the "drop pistols" were no longer needed, that and they cost a few months salary for most common folk.
Hollywood would have you beleive "gunfighters" ran about with a pair of peacemakers, but once the peacemaker was common, they only carried one.
The two gun (or more) fighter was in 1850-60s and earlier eras.
So the idea of rapid gun fire was around as soon as pistols were, "Carribean" Pirates were often told to have worn as many as six pistols specifically for this purpose.
this was actually very interesting and enlightening. thanks for sharing. i learned something new today.
this was actually very interesting and enlightening. thanks for sharing. i learned something new today.The first "gun fighters" were known to wear what is referred to as a 'brace' of pistols.
They were quite adept at quick draw, as the pistols only had one (or some times two, because of more barrels) shots.SO they would load, 2,4 or 6 pistols and fire and then drop the expended weapon.
Later cavalry versions of the gun fighter actually tied the pistols to sashes that hung from the necks, so they could drop the pistols and they would just dangle, allowing them to draw another, they would make "ride by attacks" with blaring pistols and then ride like hades to clear the combat.In the early 'western'/civil war era days, the brace of pistols dropped down to two or three pistols because of the rotating cylinder technology that had been invented (or revolver)
the reason to keep 2 or 3 was, because they didnt reload very fast or easily until the advent of the self contained cartridge, what most modern day people refer to as 'bullets'.
Once the self contained cartridge become common place (mason/richards conversions of colt black powder revolvers, and the peace maker and remington revolvers) the "brace of pistols" disappeared due to the fact the they could be readily and easily reloaded, so the "drop pistols" were no longer needed, that and they cost a few months salary for most common folk.
Hollywood would have you beleive "gunfighters" ran about with a pair of peacemakers, but once the peacemaker was common, they only carried one.
The two gun (or more) fighter was in 1850-60s and earlier eras.
So the idea of rapid gun fire was around as soon as pistols were, "Carribean" Pirates were often told to have worn as many as six pistols specifically for this purpose.
funny, im such a gun freak. I learn alot by joining SASS (single action shooting society) its kinda like live action role playing with real shootem up fire arms (can only use firearms whose design/patent is pre 1900)
Ive always thought i should have been an 1860's gun fighter and i was born too late.
Of course I think God made it up to me by allowing the invention of the jeep wrangler.
This post makes my head hurt.That's even before you get into the DR vs materials issues. Do I have to purchase adamantite shot?
If you need to overcome Damage Resistance or DR. Ya adamantite shoot is one way to go.
On the other hand, for the move and single shot fire, Greater Vital Strike for 4d8 is nice.
Also do not forget to enchant your pistol. +2 bonus (8000 gp).
Bane (creature) gun = +1 to hit, +3 to hit creature and +2d6 extra damage.
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Even with Rapid Reload, as it stands the gunslinger can only reload a pistol as a move and a musket as a standard action. Note that they only have "pistol" and "musket" listed as possible firearms right now...
So even though you attack vs. touch AC, you can only do so once a round for the purposes of this playtest... or twice if you have a pistol in each hand.
Note that they still have to revamp the "may not reload but may fire a pistol in each hand" blurb to fit the equivalent crossbow counterparts...
My guess is that they will reintroduce the 5-shooter in the Inner Sea World Guide... this is when the rubber will hit the road and gunslingers may turn out to be a little broken...
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Even with Rapid Reload, as it stands the gunslinger can only reload a pistol as a move and a musket as a standard action. Note that they only have "pistol" and "musket" listed as possible firearms right now...
So even though you attack vs. touch AC, you can only do so once a round for the purposes of this playtest... or twice if you have a pistol in each hand.
Note that they still have to revamp the "may not reload but may fire a pistol in each hand" blurb to fit the equivalent crossbow counterparts...
My guess is that they will reintroduce the 5-shooter in the Inner Sea World Guide... this is when the rubber will hit the road and gunslingers may turn out to be a little broken...
Personally, this is why I think they should have more guns in the playtest doc. Not only can you not actually build a full-fledged Gunslinger currently (as you have two open Gun Training slots), but even if they aren't testing the gun rules themselves, it would be a good idea to test the Gunslinger's effect on those rules.
Also, until the higher levels of play, I think I'll be only getting my ammo enchanted (or a musket) as I will be spend a crapload on a number of pistols just so I can fire off more than a round or two as a pistoleer.
Even with Rapid Reload, as it stands the gunslinger can only reload a pistol as a move and a musket as a standard action.Not so. They can take the Lightning Reload Deed feat to spend a point of grit to reload a single barrel as a free action while in light armor. At 11th level, they can then take the Signature Deed feat to reduce the grit cost of Lightning Reload Deed to 0 grit, allowing them to do it all the time.
We'll likely see some firearms with multiple barrels, though.
can u reduce the cost of a deed to lower than one if you have to spend a point to use it regularly?
This post makes my head hurt.That's even before you get into the DR vs materials issues. Do I have to purchase adamantite shot?
If you need to overcome Damage Resistance or DR. Ya adamantite shoot is one way to go.
On the other hand, for the move and single shot fire, Greater Vital Strike for 4d8 is nice.
Also do not forget to enchant your pistol. +2 bonus (8000 gp).
Bane (creature) gun = +1 to hit, +3 to hit creature and +2d6 extra damage.
But if you are having to carry 8+ pistols in order to spam full attacks the cost of enchanting them to even a minor degree is going to be cost prohibitive until very late in the game.
Considering you have no + to damage from strength, the damage per shot even with GVS is going to be relatively small unless you decide to be carrying around large or huge firearms as an enlarged gunslinger.
What's interesting is that I actually see the pistols as being very solid ranged weapon options for the rogue as ranged touch attacks + sneak attack make for a pretty decent strategy.
Without some method for getting decent precision damage in order to compensate for the reduction in DPR I'm just not sure a brace of pistols is a viable strategy.
funny, im such a gun freak. I learn alot by joining SASS (single action shooting society) its kinda like live action role playing with real shootem up fire arms (can only use firearms whose design/patent is pre 1900)
Ive always thought i should have been an 1860's gun fighter and i was born too late.
Of course I think God made it up to me by allowing the invention of the jeep wrangler.
I found it an interesting read too. I have met one man that could get three shots off in six seconds with a black powder weapon -- however he is out of practice now and I doubt he can do it that fast any more. Not someone I intend to cross anyway about it!
Of course I think God made it up to me by allowing the invention of the jeep wrangler.
Preach it, brother! Wrangler X for me. Best vehicle I've ever owned.
I believe that James has said that the two guns in the playtest are the two guns we get in the new World Guide, but he's also said there is a good chance of getting an Alkenstar book, and its possible Ultimate Combat will have more firearms as well.
The feat lists the minimum grit cost as 0, so yes.can u reduce the cost of a deed to lower than one if you have to spend a point to use it regularly?Even with Rapid Reload, as it stands the gunslinger can only reload a pistol as a move and a musket as a standard action.Not so. They can take the Lightning Reload Deed feat to spend a point of grit to reload a single barrel as a free action while in light armor. At 11th level, they can then take the Signature Deed feat to reduce the grit cost of Lightning Reload Deed to 0 grit, allowing them to do it all the time.
We'll likely see some firearms with multiple barrels, though.
thank you.
But these are heroic, fantasy gunslingers we're talking about here. The rules of physics go out the window. If a heroic, legendary gunslinger manages ten shots with a pistol in the span of a few seconds, who cares? No one asks how they curve bullets in the movie "Wanted"...they just do! It's the same with this game and we need to make sure we stick to that line of thought.
The video game "Devil May Cry" anyone? That's what I picture when I think about a fantasy TTRPG gunslinger class.