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Something that has always bugged me...
Why are Gnomes/Halflings nerfed to 20ft movement? If it's because they are small, then why do goblins/kobolds get "normal" movement of 30ft?
On a related note, why are dwarves, medium creatures, nerfed to 20ft, but then get to move normally when wearing restricted armor? Why not just give them standard movement, 30ft, for a medium creature?
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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It sounds like you want some in-character justification for these rules, rather than "we don't want the party to be able to outpace the threatening kobolds that easily."
Goblins and (to a lesser extent) kobolds aren't just small; they're wiry and frantic. Their manic insanity and hunger give them a boost of speed.
Dwarves are a speacial case: they can only move 20', but they can move that 20' even in full plate and carrying their full lifting capacity. They're more or less the "first gear" humanoids.
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If we want goblins and other small creatures to have the option to get away from the "big folk" then why not just give them something akin to a barbarian's speed boost rather than nerf the gnomes/halflings? Both races have great potential, but you rarely see a halfling/gnome fighter character. In my experience, it is due to the restricted movement. Yes, they can recover from heavy armor penalties with armor training, but they are still at a disadvantage vs. the "big folk." All I am getting at is this anything more than just, they have short legs so they should be slower?
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TK, I see lots of halfling and gnome fighters
Sorry, what I meant to say was when I encounter someone who does not want to play that combo, they usually site the movement penalty as the reason. Yes, that is a single aspect of the character and any player worth his salt should be able to make it work anyway.
In any case, I digress, my question still stands. Why did we need to nerf the gnomes/halfling's movement? Your original answer could apply to PF goblins, but I don't really see kobolds as a wild/frantic race. Although that could just be my interpretation. But it still doesn't explain other small humanoid races like Morlocks and Dark Creepers. What justifies their 30ft movement? It seems that the only nerfed small "monster" humanoids are mites and at least they get a climb speed. If the base reason is balance so the PC's cannot just outrun all the small monsters so none can ever go for reinforcements, I'm okay with that, but why punish the small PC's?
All I am getting at is this anything more than just, they have short legs so they should be slower?
No, that is pretty much the reason why. And because thats the way its been since the beginning.
I could easily see nerfing goblins before buffing the little races movements. Kobolds though are a different story as they in every picture that I've seen, have large leg muscles for a small creature and their leg structure could propel them as fast or faster than a taller race.
Goblins don't have this feature and would think that they would actually move as fast as a gnome or slower since they aren't represented with much muscle and have such large craniums in the pathfinder bestiary. Unless their bones like their weapons had holes in them to make them lighter even then I would debate that they would still move at the same speed as small races.
it really only stops making sense when you realize "enlarge person" doesn't increase movement speed
it really only stops making sense when you realize "enlarge person" doesn't increase movement speed
Agreed. And Reduce Person doesn't reduce it, either. So it really is something specific to those two races, apparently.
I think it mostly comes down to "smaller creatures are slower because their legs are shorter".
I had one GM who believed that kobolds and goblins had a speed of 30 due to evolutionary pressure. The kobold in the 20x30 room who had a speed of 20 was killed by the first group of PCs to come along. Some of the ones that had a speed of 30 were able to run away and thus lived to have more children. Eventually, the entire race consisted of their descendents, who have even forgotten the "slow ones" from ancient times.
I think it mostly comes down to "smaller creatures are slower because their legs are shorter".
I had one GM who believed that kobolds and goblins had a speed of 30 due to evolutionary pressure. The kobold in the 20x30 room who had a speed of 20 was killed by the first group of PCs to come along. Some of the ones that had a speed of 30 were able to run away and thus lived to have more children. Eventually, the entire race consisted of their descendents, who have even forgotten the "slow ones" from ancient times.
Then why aren't the halflings and gnomes gone? Goblins and Kobolds have a huge flanking advantage just from having a higher speed than both the those races, and breed faster too.
I think it mostly comes down to "smaller creatures are slower because their legs are shorter".
I had one GM who believed that kobolds and goblins had a speed of 30 due to evolutionary pressure. The kobold in the 20x30 room who had a speed of 20 was killed by the first group of PCs to come along. Some of the ones that had a speed of 30 were able to run away and thus lived to have more children. Eventually, the entire race consisted of their descendents, who have even forgotten the "slow ones" from ancient times.
That still doesn't explain why enlarging them to medium doesn't give them more speed, legs get longer speed stays the same
Does anyone out there have kids? I have a 4 year old who is a 36" halfling. No way can she keep up with me, average male human at 70".
I think the original creators had 4 year old kids, too. Anyway, I think the answer is obvious how they got a 20' movement... short legs.
Concerning fast goblins and such, *shrugs*. Have no idea.
I think the enlarge person speed thing doesn't look right, though. A 10' hill giant has 40' movement. I don't see why a enlarged halfling shouldn't get +10' move. Or an enlarged human for that matter.
Yeah... I think I have quicklings for children though...
The answer is the size of your legs. Longer legs means you move further with the exact same effort or movement. Now, as always there are exceptions.
Dwarves arent built for speed, but they are very sturdy.
Kobolds are built for speed, also reptiles in general are rather fast.
Goblins are frantic hyperactive creatures, which is why they are so terrifying.
I never really thought about the enlarge/reduce spells. They should really change your speed as well. But, magic works in some strange ways :P
As for the little folk being turned down because of their speed, just buy boots of springing and striding. Gets you back to 30 easily.
it really only stops making sense when you realize "enlarge person" doesn't increase movement speed
+1
There should be a +10/-10 modifier to speed when using Enlarge/Reduce.
If this is considered overpowered, one might add variants of Enlarge/Reduce at higher spell level.
Level 1: size+1
level 2: as level 1 & speed+10 & natural armor+1
Level 3: as level 2 & size +2
Level 4: as level 3 & speed+100% & natural armor +4
$0.02
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I would be interested to hear from a developer on this. Are the speed choices, just carry over from older concepts? Are gnomes/halflings slower just because they always have been? If goblins got faster due to evolutionary advancement, why didn't the gnomes/halflings do the same? They typicall live in areas where goblinoid/Orc creatures exist and compete for space. And it still doesn't explain why Morlocks and Dark Creepers are faster. The one that really baffles me is Dwarves. Despite being a medium creature, their speed is nerfed. This seems like an unnecessary penalty. And then the armor boost is added back in which seems odd since, stereotypically there primary role is fighter in heavy armor. Feels like just hosing the dwarves on movement, except when they are working along side humans/elves where their speed is the same (at least until armor training kicks in and restores the "big folk" to a faster speed).
As far as the Enlarge/Reduce issue goes, I would equate it being uncoordinated with your new size. Similar in concept to size penalties to AC. Although that idea breaks down when you look at bonuses for becoming smaller. I think it just boils down to being too much a bonus to add a speed increase on top of the other benefits for enlarge.
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Bestiary p292 states: "Most Medium creatures have a base speed of 30 feet. Quadrupeds and Large creatures increase this by 10 feet each. Smaller creatures decrease this base speed by 10 feet. If a creature is particularly fast or slow, modify the base speed by 10 feet. Burrow and climb speeds are usually half a creature’s base speed, while flying speeds are roughly double. Remember to give a creature the appropriate skills for any unusual movement methods."
Dwarves aren't seen traditionally as athletic or fast, but they also spend their life in armour.
Goblins and kobolds are apparently just fast for their size...