Ok, so I'm looking at potential eidolon builds and came across a question. I know it may not be the smartest move, but I wanted to know what the consequences are. Lets say I have an eidolon with both feats in the thread title, +6 BAB, 18 str, and 4 arms: longsword in primary, shortsword in one off-hand, and two claws. So, what would a full attack look like?
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Full attack would be +8/+3 main hand, +8 off hand, +3/+3 claws.
I'd have thought it would be +8/+3 main hand, +8 off hand, +5/+5 claws.
(i.e. the -2 for using two weapons doesn't carry over to the natural attack, which is just a flat -5)
I could be wrong.
When you get the 7th BAB, it'd then be +9/+4 main hand, +9 off hand and +9/+9 claws.
The off hand and the claws would only get 1/2 strength bonus to damage.
I'd like to add a question, as I'm currently thinking about playing a summoner.
With my summoner at 8th level, my eidolon is a slam type biped with a total of 6 arms and the large size evolution. It has multiweapon fighting, exotic wpn. pro. (sawtooth sabre) and wpn. focus (sawtooth sabre). Wielding 6 Mwk. Sawtooth sabres, how many attacks would it get and with what bonuses?
Relevant stats: 30 str, 13 dex, BAB +6.
Also, sorry if this has been asked before. I did a search of the forums and it just felt a bit overwhelming.
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You can't make weapon attacks with a limb that is making a natural attack and slam uses two of your arms. You'd need 8 arms to wield 6 weapons and make a slam.
With 8 arms it would be:
+15/+10 main hand, +15 off hands, and +11 slam.
At 9th level it would get Multiattack making it:
+16/+11 main hand, +16 off hands, and +15 slam.
The slam and off hand attacks only get 1/2 strength bonus to damage.
Thank you for the reply. I have a couple of follow up questions, though.
Is there anyway to lose the slam attack? Will all of the biped forms lose 2 potentiel attacks to their natural attacks?
Another source had gotten me the same result for the attack bonuses, but I don't understand why the offhand bonus is as big the mainhand. Could you explain it for me, possible show me the math?
Thanks in advance :)
Is there anyway to lose the slam attack?
Just don't buy it. (When you say 'slam type', is that one of the pre-built options? I don't see it listed in Ultimate Combat section)
Will all of the biped forms lose 2 potentiel attacks to their natural attacks?
Biped eidolon starts with: Free Evolutions claws, limbs (arms), limbs (legs).
If it uses a weapon in whatever limb has claws, it can only attack with one of them. Claw or sword.
Your DM may allow you to put the claws on it's feet, and allow you to then use the foot-claws in a full attack, so you can attack with arms normally, and feet-claws as secondary natural attacks. Many DMs will bristle at this suggestion.
I don't understand why the offhand bonus is as big the mainhand. Could you explain it for me, possible show me the math?
Two-Weapon Fighting: "If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways. First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light. Second, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6."
If the Eidolon has Exotic Weapon Proficiency in Sawtooth Saber, it's considered a light weapon. If it also has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, that means his total TWF penalties are -2/-2, the same penalties for each hand.
BAB +Misc -2 main hand
BAB +Misc -2 off hand
When the main hand gets iterative attacks due to high bab, each subsequent attack reduces the BAB by 5. (BAB +6/+1 for example)
So with Str+10 and BAB+6 his attacks would be
Main hand: +15/+10
BAB(6)+Misc(11)-TWF(2) / BAB(1)+Misc(11)-TWF(2)
Off hand: :+15
BAB(6)+Misc(11)-TWF(2)
(Misc: Str(10)+WF(1)+MW(1)-Size(1))
FootClaw(or bite etc): +10
BAB-5(1)+Str(10)-Size(1) [It's BAB-5 because it's a secondary natural attack on account of how you're mixing it with iterative attacks]
Even though he has two claws, he has a maximum of 4 attacks per round.
Thank you for the reply. I have a couple of follow up questions, though.
Is there anyway to lose the slam attack? Will all of the biped forms lose 2 potentiel attacks to their natural attacks?
Another source had gotten me the same result for the attack bonuses, but I don't understand why the offhand bonus is as big the mainhand. Could you explain it for me, possible show me the math?
Thanks in advance :)
In regard to losing the slam attack -- basically, each time you gain a level, your eidolon's evolutions are stripped away, leaving it with only the free evolutions granted by its base form. You can now spend your evolution points however you wish -- you are not constrained in any way by what you did at prior levels.
Since claws are a free evolution for the biped form, they take up two of your maximum attacks. You can reduce that cost to one by buying the slam attack to replace the claw attacks, but that does not really help you much if you are intent on wielding a weapon. Your best bet is to have a pair of arms without claws to wield the weapons, either by putting the claws on your feet or by acquiring a second set of arms.
Frankly, I prefer to avoid manufactured weapons with an eidolon below 9th level, since the penalty for attacking with secondary weapons is so steep. You are probably better off maxing out your natural attacks and getting the eidolon an amulet of might fists to boost those attacks.
Thank you all the answers, that helped a lot. I think I had gotten a bit confused regarding the base forms, but it makes sense now.
Final question, then. If my eidolon is limited to, say, 4 natural attacks, does that mean it won't get all the attacks that it would otherwise have with six arms wielding weapons and multiweapon fighting?
So with Str+10 and BAB+6 his attacks would be
Main hand: +15/+10
BAB(6)+Misc(11)-TWF(2) / BAB(1)+Misc(11)-TWF(2)Off hand: :+15
BAB(6)+Misc(11)-TWF(2)(Misc: Str(10)+WF(1)+MW(1)-Size(1))
FootClaw(or bite etc): +10
BAB-5(1)+Str(10)-Size(1) [It's BAB-5 because it's a secondary natural attack on account of how you're mixing it with iterative attacks]Even though he has two claws, he has a maximum of 4 attacks per round.
Note: Max Attacks specifically stated does not apply to attacks with weapons.
Grand total Attacks then are totaled as normal and then add all other natural attacks that are not being occupied with weapons as secondary attacks.
According to the level 6 example you gave:
Weapon Attacks first 3 followed by secondary attacks (bite, claw, claw): 15/15/10/10/10/10.
This leaves room for 1 more natural attack. I recommend getting the extra limbs and training out TWF for MWF adds a lot more weapon attacks.
Hi everyone,
I'm completely new to the concept of building a Summoner and am trying to understand the rules of multiattack correctly.
I'm building at level 1, and am making a biped. I am thinking about having it wield a sword in one hand, so would it be able to do two attacks? Str at 20 (+5 bonus, I have feat of augment summoning), so would the attack be +6 for attack with sword and then +1 with claws on other hand?
Or, if I took the bite evolution and tail evolution, would the Bite, Tail, and free-hand with claws count as three natural attacks + the sword attack, thus giving me a total of four attacks?
I tried to understand what was being mentioned above in regards to my question, but it didn't click. Sorry if I'm asking anyone to repeat something that might appear obvious.
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I've never made a Summoner, and I've rarely been around one, so I'll just address one thing you mentioned and leave the rest for others to advise:
Str at 20 (+5 bonus, I have feat of augment summoning)
The Augment Summoning feat doesn't increase your Eidolon's Str and Con*. The feat augments creatures you summon via spells like Summon Nature's Ally and Summon Monster. Basically, since you're not using a spell to summon your Eidolon it doesn't benefit from the feat.
*There is a 2nd level Summoner spell called Summon Eidolon that will work in conjunction with Augment Summoning, and similar feats, but the drawback is that its duration is only 1 minute/level.
Thanks for all of the advice! That really helps to clear things up for me and to rethink my build.