You can find some stats HERE (although i'd make them smaller- still tiny but NOT "the size of a hoysecat"
This is based (I think) on the stats for Giant scorpion on p. 242 of the Bestiary
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Cool, even tho its fan created, hope my DM Oks it.
Wow... Since im 4 lvl it would have 22 ac, thats about as high as the tanks in my group.
Trem sence!
I think in alot of citys since its the size of a cat i might run into some problems... So I think Ill let it walk in the ground beteen my robes... That way it would have trem since also...
50ft movement is also nice.
1d2-4 dmg, does that mean it does negitive dmg?
How does that work out?
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Cool, even tho its fan created, hope my DM Oks it.
Wow... Since im 4 lvl it would have 22 ac, thats about as high as the tanks in my group.
Trem sence!
I think in alot of citys since its the size of a cat i might run into some problems... So I think Ill let it walk in the ground beteen my robes... That way it would have trem since also...
50ft movement is also nice.
1d2-4 dmg, does that mean it does negitive dmg?
How does that work out?
If it does less than 1 damage it does 1 point of non lethal
I have to say that move 50' seems kinda stupid though,... I'd restat it myself for something more realistic!
Also constrict as an attack is dumb. In fact the whole stat block seems kind of off.
Go to the Bestiary and work it out using the rules there.
According to the Advanced Player's Guide (page 70), the scorpion familiar makes use of the greensting scorpion from the Bestiary (page 242).
You can also find the information here and here.
After making all the necessary adjustments, you should have this:
ARCANE FAMILIAR CR 1/4
Male Scorpion, Greensting
NN Tiny Magical Beast
Init +3; Senses Darkvision (60 feet), Tremorsense (60 feet); Perception +4
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 23, touch 15, flat-footed 20. . (+3 Dex, +2 size, +8 natural)
hp 3 (1d10)
Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +2
Immune mind-affecting
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 50 ft.
Melee Claw x2 (Scorpion, Greensting) -1 x2 (1d2-4/20/x2) and
. . Constrict (Scorpion, Greensting) -1 (1d2-4/20/x2) and
. . Sting (Scorpion, Greensting) -1 (1d2-4/20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike -1 (1-4/20/x2)
Space 2.5 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Special Attacks Grab, Poison: Sting-injury (DC 10)
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 3, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 2
Base Atk +1; CMB +2 (+6 Grappling); CMD 8
Feats
Skills Climb +0, Fly +7, Perception +4, Stealth +15
Languages
SQ Improved Evasion (Ex)
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Grab (Diminutive) (Ex) You can start a grapple as a free action if you hit with the designated weapon.
Immunity to Mind-Affecting attacks You are immune to Mind-Affecting attacks.
Improved Evasion (Ex) No damage on successful reflex save; half on failed save.
Poison: Sting-injury (DC 10) (Ex) Poison deals 1d2 STR damage, 1/round for 6rounds, cure 1 save.
Tremorsense (60 feet) Sense things and creatures without seeing them.
Created With Hero Lab® - try it for free at http://www.wolflair.com!
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Couple of things here. Bob's Heroforge stat block kicked out a couple of errors. Scaling down a monster and then turning it into a familiar isn't always as easy as running it through a formula.
Natural Armor drops down to +5 then gains +1 for being a familiar. Total AC 21 (+3 dex, +6 natural [including 1 from being a familiar] +2 size). Spd drops to 40. With an intelligence score as a familiar, a scorpion familiar is no longer mindless.
When determining a creature's speed, first decide if it has any alternative modes of movement, such as burrow, climb, fly, or swim. Most Medium creatures have a base speed of 30 feet. Quadrupeds and Large creatures increase this by 10 feet each. Smaller creatures decrease this base speed by 10 feet. If a creature is particularly fast or slow, modify the base speed by 10 feet. Burrow and climb speeds are usually half a creature's base speed, while flying speeds are roughly double. Remember to give a creature the appropriate skills for any unusual movement methods.
To get 50 move the scorpion had 30 +10 for large or quadraped, +10 for being particularly fast. -10 for being smaller = 40.
Still- as a CR 1/4 familiar the PF scaled down scorpion is way out of balance with other familiars and I can't understand why it was introduced with a "scale it down yourself" method.
Compare what you get by scaling that stat block down to the 3.5 version of a tiny scorpion:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/monstrousScorpion.htm
When that 3.5 version became a familiar option in Stormwrack, WotC stripped it of tremorsense. It was considered too powerful of an ability for free with your familiar from 1st level, and it is. A creature the size of a house cat can feel all vibrations in a 120 foot wide diameter allowing one PC to circumvent invisibility and potentially darkness at will from 1st level? Also a scorpion familiar is no longer mindless. It has an intelligence score so it is not immune to mind affecting effects anymore. This was also clarified in Stormwrack.
3.5 familiar version: AC 15, move 20, no tremorsense
PF familiar version (RAW scaled): AC 21, move 40, tremorsense 60 ft
Average AC for CR 1/2 in PFRPG: AC 11
require the improved familar feat for non witches.
A tiny creature is 1ft. - 2ft. in length and 1 - 8 lbs in weight.
A creature this size that is covered in chiten and armed with a stinger is not going to do subdual damage.
I would give 1 maby 2 points of damage for the stinger and drop constrict for aneything its size or larger and instead make a graple attempt.
Also a +5 natural armor seems a little off i mean is the chitin on a tiny creature as thick as the chitin on a huge creature?
Here are the official stats of a scorpion familiar:
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.
.
N Tiny magical beast (augmented vermin)
Init +3; Senses darkvision 60 ft., tremorsense 60 ft.; Perception +4
DEFENSE
AC 21, touch 15, flat-footed 17 (+3 Dex, +6 natural, +2 size)
hp 4 (1 HD)
Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +0
Defensive ABilities improved evasion
OFFENSE
Speed 50 ft. (10 squares)
Melee 2 claws +5 (1d2–3 plus grab) and
sting +5 (1d2–3 plus poison) or
Space 2½ ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Special Attacks constrict (1d2–3), grab, poison
STATISTICS
Abilities Str 3 (–3), Dex 16 (+3), Con 10 (+0), Int 6 (-2), Wis 10 (+0), Cha 2 (–4)
Base Atk +0; CMB –5 (–1 grapple); CMD 8 (20 vs. overrun and trip)
Feats Skill Focus (stealth)
Skills Climb +7, Perception +4, Stealth +19
Languages Empathic link
SQ familiar traits
Encumbrance light 7 lb. 8 oz., medium 15 lb., heavy 22 lb. 8 oz.
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I think all of these posts prove the point that they shouldn't have offered a familiar choice where you have to reverse engineer the build yourself. Everyone here and pfd20srd all have slightly different builds while being certain that they followed the rules to scale it down to tiny size correctly.
As far as natural armor of +5 seeming steep, it is, but it is what you get when you take the natural armor of the giant scorpion and work backward through the "Size Changes" chart in the Monster Advancement section. Going from Large to Medium is -2. Further size changes when becoming smaller do not reduce the Natural AC. +7 => +5
Large to Tiny also changes 19 str to 3 str and 10 dex to 16 dex.
So the tiny guy loses 2 Natural armor, gains one back for being a 1st level familiar, gains +3 from size based dex increases then +2 size for being tiny. So yep, against all reason the scorpion ends up a glass cannon tank at 1st level, except that it can only do NL damage and has to enter the square of an opponent to make an attack.
When determining a creature's speed, first decide if it has any alternative modes of movement, such as burrow, climb, fly, or swim. Most Medium creatures have a base speed of 30 feet. Quadrupeds and Large creatures increase this by 10 feet each. Smaller creatures decrease this base speed by 10 feet. If a creature is particularly fast or slow, modify the base speed by 10 feet. Burrow and climb speeds are usually half a creature's base speed, while flying speeds are roughly double. Remember to give a creature the appropriate skills for any unusual movement methods.To get 50 move the scorpion had 30 +10 for large or quadraped, +10 for being particularly fast. -10 for being smaller = 40.
I have NEVER seen rules for reduced (or increased) speed for size change in ANY edition of D&D. Where might I find your quoted rules from? I did a search for the word "speed" and it doesn't even appear in the monster advancement section (where the resizing rules are kept). EDIT: Found it in Monster Creation. As such it doesn't really apply here. We aren't making a new monster from scratch, but modifying an existing one.
Also, I think you will find that I followed the rules exactly, with the addition of adding a skill rank to Stealth and a feat, due to no longer being mindless.
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Lol. you think I made that up just for fun?
Monster Creation, Step 7, Last paragraph
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monsterCreation.html
Yet- you can't ignore it either. Those are the rules for determining the speed of a creature. You shouldn't skip them just because you are modifying an existing one. That bit on speed tells you where the base number came from when they made that monster from scratch. If the conditions no longer apply, you need to make note of that.
Lol. you think I made that up just for fun?
Monster Creation, Step 7, Last paragraph
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monsterCreation.html
No I don't.
Monster creation rules don't apply here. We aren't making a homebrew monster from scratch, we are modifying an existing monster. If his stat block is any indication, Bob and the creators of Her Lab agree with me.
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Ok. You can see the guideline they used to come up with the base number. It isn't cross referenced in the "advancing monsters section" because the entire section is written from the perspective of making monsters bigger and tougher. As such, they don't reference reducing speed for becoming smaller than Large or reducing anything to make a monster smaller. You have to work backwards for that.
Really though that isn't my main point. I really feel like something as integral as a familiar for a Base class should have been statted out in the book. I get that it is in the "advanced" player's guide, but monster scaling is pretty damn advanced for someone making a 1st level character and jumping in a game. Errors will abound.
EDIT: Hmm... the witch page in the prd now has a link for the greensting scorpion, but it says access denied when I click on it.
Additionally, (and it is entirely off the topic, but we're here so...) I don't really understand why there is one single familiar that is so vastly better than every other familiar available at 1st level:
AC 5 points higher than any other 1st level familiar
+10 move faster than any other familiar (if you count it at 50)
+2 Init for a caster
+tremorsense 60' radius
+poison
Why would anyone pick anything else given that option? Why is this one familiar so obviously out of balance with the rest of them?
EDIT: The owl and the hawk can fly at 60, so the scorpion isn't the fastest after all, but it is fully 20 feet faster than any other ground based familiar except the fox which has 40, if you go with 50.
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I'm glad Hero Lab is out there, but I don't think anyone would make the claim that it is infallible. For one thing hero lab listed that familiar as mindless, having an AC of 23, and all of its attacks are at seriously different bonuses than yours are, so it disagrees with your own stat block right there multiple times.
EDIT- and your numbers and stat block are more correct than Hero Lab's in each of those examples
After reading all this I went and looked at the rules from Paizo. Briefly here is what I used;
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monsterCreation.html
Core Rules p. 82 & 83 quote - " A familiar is an animal chosen by a spellcaster to aid him in his study of magic. It retains the appearance, Hit Dice, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, skills, and feats of the normal animal it once was, but is now a magical beast for the purpose of effects that depend on its type. Only a normal, unmodified animal may become a familiar."
Familiar Basics: Use the basic statistics for a creature of the familiar’s kind as described in the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary, but with the following changes.
Hit Dice: For HD use the char level or the familiar’s normal HD whichever is higher.
Hit Points: Familiar has half the char's regardless of actual HD
Attacks: Char's BAB as calculated from all his classes. Use the familiar’s Dex or
Str mod whichever is greater, to calculate the familiar’s melee attack bonus with natural weapons.
Damage equals that of a normal creature of the familiar’s kind.
Saving Throws: For each saving throw, use either the
familiar’s base save bonus (Fortitude +2, Reflex +2, Will
+0) or the master’s (as calculated from all his classes),
whichever is better.
Skills: each skill in which either the char or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the char’s skill ranks, whichever is better. regardless, the familiar uses its own ability modifiers. Familiars treat Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, Perception, Stealth, and Swim as class skills.
Minimum at 1st level the familar will get the following;
1st- 2nd +1 Natural Armor , Intelligence 6 - awarding 2 Skill points
FEATS: Alertness, improved evasion, share spells, empathic link
+2 Initiative Bonus
+2 Fort, +2 Reflex +0 Will Saves
Assumptions:
1. Large is equivalent to Giant
2. the difference between Large and giant scorpion template is +1 Str, +6 Dex, +2 Con
Applying all this I get using the monster creation template in conjunction with the giant scorpion template and extrapolating;
Greensting Scorpion CR 1/4
XP 100
N Tiny vermin {Augmented}
Init +5; Senses darkvision 30 ft., tremorsense 30 ft.; Perception +4
DEFENSE
AC [18] = 10 + 5 (dex) +1 (Natural) +2 (Size)
Touch: [17] Flat-Footed [13]
hp 4.5 (5) (1d8+0 ) <--- Use 1/2 Characters HP round down
Fort +4, Ref +2, Will +0 <--- May use Character Saves
Immune mind-affecting effects
OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft.
Melee 2 claws 1d2 +1 (plus grab) , sting 1 +2 (1 plus poison)
Space variable (1/2 to 2 1/2 ft.); Reach 0 ft.
Special Attacks constrict (1d2)
STATISTICS
Str 3, Dex 20, Con 10, Int [6], Wis 10, Cha 2
Base Atk +1; <--- Use Characters BAB
CMB [-5] = 1 (BAB) + -4 (str) -2 (Size) <-- Adj. By Char BAB
[-1] Grappling (+4 Grapple)
CMD [9] = 1 (BAB) + -4 (str) +2 (size) + 10 <--- Adj. By Char BAB
[13] vs. Trip
Skills Climb +2,
Perception +4,
Stealth +4;
Racial Modifiers +4 Climb, +4 Perception, +4 Stealth
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Poison (Ex): Sting-injury; save Fort DC 12; frequency 1/round for 6 rounds; effect 1 Strength damage; cure 1 save. The save DC is Constitutuion-based and includes a +2 racial bonus.
FEAT:
Improved Natural AC (1)
Environment: warm or temperate deserts, forests, plains, or underground
Organization: solitary
Treasure: none
Okay, having done all that, the familiar will level as the character does which will progress the abilities by HD increase. Off-hand not a bad scale down attempt I think. Thoughts?
Regards,
-DogBoy
If you look at the preview for Ultimate Magic HERE it looks like they have stated out all the new witch familiars for us (this specific entry has stat block for the fox). I would be interested to see how Paizo stats up the Scorpion vs. the several results we've gotten here.
Hmmmm. . .
Only a normal, unmodified animal may become a familiar.
The creatures represented by the Improved Familiar feat are exceptions to the rule above. But I'm curious if the designers remembered the above rule when they created the scorpion (vermin) familiar. . .
Also from the Improved Familiar text:
Improved familiars otherwise use the rules for regular familiars, with two exceptions: if the creature's type is something other than animal, its type does not change; and improved familiars do not gain the ability to speak with other creatures of their kind (although many of them already have the ability to communicate).
So that does indirectly support the fact that non-improved familiars must be created from a creature of the animal type.
I noticed this trying to make a familiar sized pony the other day. one of my players for a new game to introduce them to the game wanted a pony so i said she could ahve a teeny minitature pony as a familiar. Some of the stats worked out applyng double young template but its saves were too high.
though nothing like the scorpions armor :P
Here are the official stats of a scorpion familiar:
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.
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N Tiny magical beast (augmented vermin)
Init +3; Senses darkvision 60 ft., tremorsense 60 ft.; Perception +4DEFENSE
AC 21, touch 15, flat-footed 17 (+3 Dex, +6 natural, +2 size)
hp 4 (1 HD)
Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +0
Defensive ABilities improved evasionOFFENSE
Speed 50 ft. (10 squares)
Melee 2 claws +5 (1d2–3 plus grab) and
sting +5 (1d2–3 plus poison) or
Space 2½ ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Special Attacks constrict (1d2–3), grab, poisonSTATISTICS
Abilities Str 3 (–3), Dex 16 (+3), Con 10 (+0), Int 6 (-2), Wis 10 (+0), Cha 2 (–4)
Base Atk +0; CMB –5 (–1 grapple); CMD 8 (20 vs. overrun and trip)
Feats Skill Focus (stealth)
Skills Climb +7, Perception +4, Stealth +19
Languages Empathic link
SQ familiar traits
Encumbrance light 7 lb. 8 oz., medium 15 lb., heavy 22 lb. 8 oz.
Sorry to drag this up, but I'm trying to build my familiar, and clearly the stats here are... off.
Yours look more correct, but I have a question on that stealth skill/feat:Vermin, by subtype, generally don't have any skill points. If the scorpion doesn't have any skill points, then it can't make use of the Skill Focus feat. The write-up I've been using gives it the Weapon Finesse feat, which seems to make more sense. I don't have the actual Beastiary with the base creature, but which one is actually correct?
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Here are the official stats of a scorpion familiar:
.
.
.
N Tiny magical beast (augmented vermin)
Init +3; Senses darkvision 60 ft., tremorsense 60 ft.; Perception +4DEFENSE
AC 21, touch 15, flat-footed 17 (+3 Dex, +6 natural, +2 size)
hp 4 (1 HD)
Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +0
Defensive ABilities improved evasionOFFENSE
Speed 50 ft. (10 squares)
Melee 2 claws +5 (1d2–3 plus grab) and
sting +5 (1d2–3 plus poison) or
Space 2½ ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Special Attacks constrict (1d2–3), grab, poisonSTATISTICS
Abilities Str 3 (–3), Dex 16 (+3), Con 10 (+0), Int 6 (-2), Wis 10 (+0), Cha 2 (–4)
Base Atk +0; CMB –5 (–1 grapple); CMD 8 (20 vs. overrun and trip)
Feats Skill Focus (stealth)
Skills Climb +7, Perception +4, Stealth +19
Languages Empathic link
SQ familiar traits
Encumbrance light 7 lb. 8 oz., medium 15 lb., heavy 22 lb. 8 oz.Sorry to drag this up, but I'm trying to build my familiar, and clearly the stats here are... off.
Yours look more correct, but I have a question on that stealth skill/feat:
Vermin, by subtype, generally don't have any skill points. If the scorpion doesn't have any skill points, then it can't make use of the Skill Focus feat. The write-up I've been using gives it the Weapon Finesse feat, which seems to make more sense. I don't have the actual Beastiary with the base creature, but which one is actually correct?
Why do you think the stats on the PFSRD are incorrect? They're directly from the listing for the Grensting Scorpion in the Ultimate Magic book. They're correct.
I had a pet scorpion. They are fascinating to watch eat prey.
I assumed the stats were wrong because the CMB is wrong. (I actually thought CMD was wrong too, but I double-checked my math and it's right.)
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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I assumed the stats were wrong because the CMB is wrong. (I actually thought CMD was wrong too, but I double-checked my math and it's right.)
CMB looks correct to me...
BAB +0, Dex +3, Size -2 = +1.Edit: Don't forget that creatures of tiny size or smaller use the Dex to calculate CMB.
Edit: Don't forget that creatures of tiny size or smaller use the Dex to calculate CMB.
I found the rule that says to use Dex instead of Str for Climb and Swim, but where does it mention anything about CMB?
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Edit: Don't forget that creatures of tiny size or smaller use the Dex to calculate CMB.I found the rule that says to use Dex instead of Str for Climb and Swim, but where does it mention anything about CMB?
Sorry, you're correct, but it has Weapon Finesse, so I think that applies to all of its Combat Maneuvers since it uses natural attacks for those. Can someone verify that for me?
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Sorry, you're correct, but it has Weapon Finesse, so I think that applies to all of its Combat Maneuvers since it uses natural attacks for those. Can someone verify that for me?Edit: Don't forget that creatures of tiny size or smaller use the Dex to calculate CMB.I found the rule that says to use Dex instead of Str for Climb and Swim, but where does it mention anything about CMB?
It does use its Dex bonus, but not for the reason you think. There is a separate feat to allow the use of Dex with combat maneuvers - Agile Maneuvers.
Tiny or smaller creature automatically use their Dex for CMB; it's in the combat section of the core rules:
CMB = Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier
Creatures that are size Tiny or smaller use their Dexterity modifier in place of their Strength modifier to determine their CMB. The special size modifier for a creature's Combat Maneuver Bonus is as follows:...
Damn, I dunno how I missed that when I was checking. Thanks Ryric!
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Just in case someone needs this in 2020+
All or the above info is probably bad.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/vermin/scorpion/scorpion -greensting/
Has the stats.
Copied from pfsrd
"
Home >Bestiary >(Bestiary) By Type >Vermin >Scorpion >
Scorpion, Greensting
Though its pincers seem too small to harm anything larger than an insect, this scorpion’s stinger still appears dangerous.
Greensting Scorpion CR 1/4
XP 100
N Tiny vermin
Init +3; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +4
DEFENSE
AC 18, touch 15, flat-footed 15 (+3 Dex, +3 natural, +2 size)
hp 4 (1d8)
Fort +2, Ref +3, Will +0
Immune mind-affecting effects
OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft.
Melee sting +5 (1d2–4 plus poison)
Space 2-1/2 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Special Attacks poison
STATISTICS
Str 3, Dex 16, Con 10, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2
Base Atk +0; CMB +1; CMD 7 (19 vs. trip)
Feats Weapon FinesseB
Skills Climb +7, Perception +4, Stealth +15; Racial Modifiers +4 Climb, +4 Perception, +4 Stealth
SPECIAL ABILITIES
Familiar
A greensting scorpion familiar grants a +4 bonus on Initiative checks so long as the familiar is within 1 mile of the spellcaster. A greensting scorpion familiar loses the mindless trait and has an Intelligence score appropriate for its master’s level.
Poison (Ex)
Sting—injury; save Fort DC 10; frequency 1/round for 6 rounds; effect sickened for 1 round; cure 1 save. The save DC is Constitution-based.
ECOLOGY
Environment warm or temperate forests
Organization solitary, pair, or colony (3–6)
Treasure none
Deadly greensting scorpions normally live in forests, though they can survive nearly anywhere.
Section 15: Copyright Notice
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Bestiary 4 © 2013, Paizo Publishing, LLC; Authors: Dennis Baker, Jesse Benner, Savannah Broadway, Ross Byers, Adam Daigle, Tim Hitchcock, Tracy Hurley, James Jacobs, Matt James, Rob McCreary, Jason Nelson, Tom Phillips, Stephen Radney-MacFarland, Sean K Reynolds, F. Wesley Schneider, Tork Shaw, and Russ Taylor.
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