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Why do the monsters have a complete character stats/sheet? Not to start any kind of flame war at all BUT when I run PFRPG it is a task! Has there ever been any though on simplifying monsters? It would make is much easier to run and write adventures.
What do you think?
Personally, one of the things I love about 3.5 is exactly this. That monsters use the same rules mostly as a PC. I love working on the monsters and NPCs.
That said, Have you looked at 4e D&D? I part of 4e was to simplify that.
Why do the monsters have a complete character stats/sheet?
Because anything that can be done to the PCs can be done to monsters. Thus, if they take ability damage or are shrunk or enlarged, you have to know the base stats so it can be applied; if the monster is charmed or dominated, it becomes an ally of the PCs, and they can have it do things you, as the DM, never had in mind.
In a straightforward combat, you may never need anything but To Hit and Damage, but there's no guarantee every party will just fight everything. If the PCs do something out of the ordinary, you have to know what the monster is capable of besides fighting.
Also, what Dragnmoon just said while I was typing. :)
Well, you could pare the stat block down to combat essentials. However, you'll want most of the other information as well: skills, feats, spells/abilities, etc.
One thing I've started doing is transferring stat blocks to a Word document; I built a template that has all stat block info and fill in the blanks, deleting what I don't need, for each individual monster. I write up monsters I'll be using that session, plus some additional ones when time permits. This allows me to simply print up the documents without having to flip through the book all the time. Hope this helps! :)
EDIT: Also, what Joana and Dragonmoon said!
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I have to say, in 30 years of gaming, half of which has been as DM, I've almost never done a full stat block for a monster.
Why in HELL would I?!?
'Bout the only thing I really do the math on these days is the monsters' ACs. I browse a monster's CR & stats then write out whatever the hell I want.... Arbitrarily come up with a DEX for REF, Init & AC; arbitrarily come up with a CON for HP & Fort, think through a reasonable attack modifier -- jot down a few things and write out specifically what he's likely to try the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc rounds.
And keep an eye on what his CR was so it's about the same.
Done.
Why do the monsters have a complete character stats/sheet? Not to start any kind of flame war at all BUT when I run PFRPG it is a task! Has there ever been any though on simplifying monsters? It would make is much easier to run and write adventures.
What do you think?
If you look in the back of the bestiary it has a chart with the averages for each CR. You could take that and just "guesstimate" what the exact creature would have. Most ability damage/drain sort of stuff simply offers a penalty on one or more of those numbers.
If you learn the "logic" of the statblock format, it gets a lot easier.
The penny dropped for me when I realized the following: If it happens on the creature's turn, you find the numbers in Offense. If it happens off the creature's turn, you find the numbers in defense. Numbers you need at the beginning of the encounter for detection and awareness are at the top. It helps to know the statblock, because it helps to always look in the right place first. (I still move CMB to offense and CMD to defense on my own sheets, and I think this should be done in any revised edition of PF)
I think there used to be a design style in 2/3e, maybe older, where they really started to cram a lot of varied SLAs into the monsters who were supposed to be "impressive". That has, for the most part, been fixed by consolidating creature types and making a glossary for common abilities.
If you feel that monsters are still too complex, just ignore some of their capabilities. Pick a tactic at the start of combat and stick with it. Save some of the more varied abilities for another encounter in the future — either new creatures, or the same creatures escaped. As you play the monsters, you learn them.
It is more work, I suppose, than more generic monsters would be, but there's a reason you're the Game Master and not the Game Amateur.
I have to say, in 30 years of gaming, half of which has been as DM, I've almost never done a full stat block for a monster.
This is the way I GM, but I do stat up complete monsters now and again. Sometimes it can be very cool to see how powerful something is with full skills, items, etc.
It bothers me when rules require me to come up with fairly obscure monster stats (I'm looking at you Intimidate - Demoralize*) instead of just requiring a save or whatever.
* The DC of this check is equal to 10 + the target's Hit Dice + the target's Wisdom modifier. ugh.
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Yeah, I said "almost never" cuz when the monster is a really important BBEG I'll often do a nearly full stat blcok.
I don't think I've ever really done Skills or counted out Feats accurately. More like, "Well, he's a 12 HD Rogue; his Stealth & Acrobatics would probably be...." or "He's only 8 HD; I guess I'll have to stop at Dodge, Weapon Focus, Point Blank and Rapid Shot -- he'll have to do without...."
With the way my players are I have to get all the efficiency out I can, and they often do things that make me use things a normal "one use" NPC would never have to use. If you have a kill'em and keep it moving group you can probably drop a few things off.
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That's very true, Wraithstrike.
You gotta pretty much do what's best for your group style. I just neither have time nor desire to make out "real" or complete stat blocks. And I do think it's a waste of time. But certainly, to each his own.
To the OP, though, there are lots of DMs who agree with your sentiment -- and at least some of us don't deal too much with monster stat blocks.
It is complex and time-consuming, but accurate and allows full customization.
Kinda reminds me of the PC vs Mac argument. A PC is harder to master and not so user friendly, but a Mac is a joke if you compare relative potential.
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3.5, and by extension Pathfinder, follows the rule that monsters and PCs are built from the same set of Lego bricks. And this is, IMHO, one of the greatest strengths of the system.
+1. There are some things I genuinelly love about 4E, but making monsters challenging by inflating their HP to ludicrous levels far beyond what any PC could ever get near was not one of them.
3.5, and by extension Pathfinder, follows the rule that monsters and PCs are built from the same set of Lego bricks. And this is, IMHO, one of the greatest strengths of the system.+1. There are some things I genuinelly love about 4E, but making monsters challenging by inflating their HP to ludicrous levels far beyond what any PC could ever get near was not one of them.
Agreed. By forcing all battles to be resolved with HP damage, and then giving everything heaps and buckets does not make the battles interesting. It makes them tedious.
* The DC of this check is equal to 10 + the target's Hit Dice + the target's Wisdom modifier. ugh.
Must agree with this one, I always felt that the demoralize DC should be 10 + Will save. Similar but with less math.
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I somewhat disagree. Because of the strict rules, some monster concepts are "wrong". For instance, you can't have a very low HD monster that makes up for it's low HD by having tons of skill ranks and/or feats.
Of course, I have the same problem with NPCs, too. NPCs can't really manage to be good at anything without being of a high level...which makes them more competent in combat and harder to kill. So the best cobbler in the kingdom not only makes really nice shoes, he can also kick your ass until you're at least mid-level.
And since there's no reward for actually practicing a craft in terms of XP, he didn't become a master cobbler by spending years honing the craft of making shoes...he did it by killing orcs.
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What would you take out? Ability scores? Languages?
Well, me personally, EVERYTHING except HP, AC (I do the math, there), Saves, Attack & Damage, Initiative, a couple Feats if they're not about those other things, and a list of what they'll usually try to do in the first few rounds of a fight -- that's where I would put spells, SU, SP and such if applicable.
So....
Abyssal Minotaur
HP 181 (6d8 HD; 2d10 Ftr; 3d12 Bbn =104; +7 CON =77) Max HP, always
AC 24 (DEX +2; Nat +4; Dodge +1, Size -1; Profane +2; +1Armor +6)
Fort 19 (6+3+3+7...+1 Resistance)
Ref 8
Will 6
+23/+18/+13 Attack +3 Keen Greatsword Bane of Humans
2d6 +13 +2d6vs Humans (18-20 :: 4d6 +26 +2d6vs Humans)
Initiative 6
Move 50
I'll also give him Mobility & Combat Reflexes (other Feats, like Dodge, Improved Init & Weapon Focus I put in the stats in my head while I'm making 'em.
It takes me about 3 minutes to do a simple one like this. Figuring AC and attack are the longest.
Spellcasters take longer cuz I write out the MOST LIKELY TO BE CAST spells and look 'em up, write out what they do.
If I like it I'll keep it in a folder somewhere.
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I somewhat disagree. Because of the strict rules, some monster concepts are "wrong". For instance, you can't have a very low HD monster that makes up for it's low HD by having tons of skill ranks and/or feats.
Of course, I have the same problem with NPCs, too. NPCs can't really manage to be good at anything without being of a high level...which makes them more competent in combat and harder to kill. So the best cobbler in the kingdom not only makes really nice shoes, he can also kick your ass until you're at least mid-level.
And since there's no reward for actually practicing a craft in terms of XP, he didn't become a master cobbler by spending years honing the craft of making shoes...he did it by killing orcs.
There are very explicit rules on awarding XP for non-combat encounters. Your high-level NPCs with NPC-only classes probably got 90% of their XP from non-combat encounters (haggling, dealing with the local thugs wanting their protection money, outbidding the competition, etc.).
Well to be honest, as DM i cheat when it comes to monster stat block.
Usually just take monster as listed in Bestiary.
Then i up or lower its HP, saves, # of spells, or damage depending on what level i am shooting for.
Never bother changing the feats, skills, or other stuff. After all, most of the time, the creature going to be dead by next game play. So usually do not bother.
But then again, home brew games do not need to be that accurate.
...............
For those who publish there settings, modulars, etc. Well you have my respect and my condolences on keeping all the rules working together in a neat orderly fashion.
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There are very explicit rules on awarding XP for non-combat encounters. Your high-level NPCs with NPC-only classes probably got 90% of their XP from non-combat encounters (haggling, dealing with the local thugs wanting their protection money, outbidding the competition, etc.).
Which contributes to increased BAB, saving throw bonuses, hit points, etc. NPCs just don't end up making sense in a level based system. If I were to create an RPG system, I'd probably go with a level system for combat/class abilities, but for skills use a system akin to Chaosium's BRP (where skill "ranks" increase with use, irrespective of level). I'd also open up monsters to whatever the designer envision, not really having many stats be linked to many others.
Well to be honest, as DM i cheat when it comes to monster stat block.
Usually just take monster as listed in Bestiary.
Then i up or lower its HP, saves, # of spells, or damage depending on what level i am shooting for.
Never bother changing the feats, skills, or other stuff. After all, most of the time, the creature going to be dead by next game play. So usually do not bother.
But then again, home brew games do not need to be that accurate.
...............
For those who publish there settings, modulars, etc. Well you have my respect and my condolences on keeping all the rules working together in a neat orderly fashion.
Some players can reverse engineer monsters if the saves, hp, and so on are too far apart. Keep that in mind when inviting new players. Now if you reskin the monsters it is easier to get away with.
Some players can reverse engineer monsters if the saves, hp, and so on are too far apart. Keep that in mind when inviting new players. Now if you reskin the monsters it is easier to get away with.
True
Johnny the Mighty Lizard
See page 131 Lizard enter in Bestiary
Only change: Hp = 300 hp
:) Mighty Mighty Johnny the lizard, he climbs up your pants, climbs up your staff, up your back pack, be warry of his 1 hp damage bite. Smash him, bash him, flip all a round, till he drops and comes back to bite you on the tush.... its Might Johnny the lizard, on your trail, on your tail, on the way to find you today !!
:D
i must be one of the black sheep, i like detailed monster stats. while yes it provides more info than you will USUALLY need it's not so cluttered that you can't quickly find what you need at the time. plus what you usually need isn't the same as what you sometimes THINK you will need, my players constantly surprise me. One time i got this, the players were fighting a troll in kingmaker and the troll was above there CR. so it comes to the dwarven barbarians turn, "ok windigo it's your turn what are you going to do?". player "im going to grapple him and try to pin it!". ok roll for attack and..."wait WTF are you doing!?". In the end he actually managed to pull it off, the CMD and CMB came in handy, as did the stats. The player took a knowledge roll to try and discern how strong an avg troll was compared to a dwarf. other times my players have wanted to know, on avg how intelligent is the monster? or On avg how hardy are they are. stats come in handy, also stats come in handy how to RP a monster. If you have stats sometimes and not others then the format changes and isn't as quick to follow. Plus, i like mixing up monsters to surprise players. changing stats with advanced monster template is a good way to do that, and the template changes A LOT about the monster from power to behavior. even changing around feats can catch a player off guard and provide a surprise. I wouldn't mind actually having MORE stat block, i don't know how many times i've run an app and gotten "the players need to make a perception check vs the monsters stealth" then go to the stat block and there is no Stealth rating as the monster doesn't have ranks in stealth, and it slows me down looking for soemthing that isn't there and i need to remind myself what it is, which slows the game. And sometimes there are monsters that you think would be sneaky but aren't. since most encounters depend on detecting one party or the other to determine encounter distance i think STEALTH should be in every stat block even if it's the same as there DEX, as some creatures have penalties you need to calc in.
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If it happens on the creature's turn, you find the numbers in Offense. If it happens off the creature's turn, you find the numbers in defense. Numbers you need at the beginning of the encounter for detection and awareness are at the top.
And you have just changed the way I use, look at, and think about monster stat blocks.
I don't have much trouble with the stat blocks, I just haven't gotten used to referencing the glossary for how each monster's abilities work. It slows my encounters down and has lead to confusion with my other GMs. The most common complaint is that a save DC will be listed but you have to look elsewhere to find which save. I would say the inclusion of "Fort" "Ref" or "Will" in the stat block would cut five to ten minutes of reference time off encounters we run.
If it happens on the creature's turn, you find the numbers in Offense. If it happens off the creature's turn, you find the numbers in defense. Numbers you need at the beginning of the encounter for detection and awareness are at the top.And you have just changed the way I use, look at, and think about monster stat blocks.
I don't have much trouble with the stat blocks, I just haven't gotten used to referencing the glossary for how each monster's abilities work. It slows my encounters down and has lead to confusion with my other GMs. The most common complaint is that a save DC will be listed but you have to look elsewhere to find which save. I would say the inclusion of "Fort" "Ref" or "Will" in the stat block would cut five to ten minutes of reference time off encounters we run.
Normally the DC and the specific save are in the monster ability description.
Example: Bebilith
Dismantle Armor (Ex) If a bebilith hits a foe with both claw attacks, it can attempt to peel away the target's armor and shield as a free action by making a CMB check. If the bebilith is successful, the target's armor and shield are torn from his body and dismantled, falling to the ground. Armor subjected to this attack loses half its hit points and gains the broken condition if the target fails a DC 25 Reflex save. The save DC is Strength-based.
I'm with RunebladeX. I like detailed stats on NPCs. I usually copy and paste them in a word (well, wordperfect) document and update them to reflect any changes that the scenario called for or that I thought would be fun. I also copy and paste the appropriate description(s) from the Universal Monster Rules and the Creature Type section.
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Normally the DC and the specific save are in the monster ability description.
Sure, when the ability is in the description.
This is the kind of thing I'm talking about:
web (+6 ranged, DC 15, hp 4)
I have to reference the web universal monster rule to find out that is a DC 15 Escape Artist or Strength check. There's a good chance I would need to reference web anyway, but the less often I need to leave the page detailing the monster I'm on, the happier I am and the smoother my encounters run.
Here's the problem -- if the bestiary did that for each monster then we would have less monsters with lots of repeated text. Instead they said "This ability shows up often enough that we'll make it universal and you can just check it in the back."
Now no one ever said the GM's job was easy -- it isn't. This is part of what makes it difficult -- you have all the monsters you must know as well as abilities, while the players only have one character.
It is also why the GM is supposed to receive more respect and generally get a pass while at the table. Because he does have more to think about and do.
Normally the DC and the specific save are in the monster ability description.
Sure, when the ability is in the description.
This is the kind of thing I'm talking about:
web (+6 ranged, DC 15, hp 4)
I have to reference the web universal monster rule to find out that is a DC 15 Escape Artist or Strength check. There's a good chance I would need to reference web anyway, but the less often I need to leave the page detailing the monster I'm on, the happier I am and the smoother my encounters run.
I think they try to not reprint information every time if it is a common monster abilities. After a while such things generally get memorized.
Why do the monsters have a complete character stats/sheet?
Long ago, they didn't provide complete PC-like information for monsters, and it made a lot of GMing tasks harder. With this system, Paizo has done all the hard work and you can just ignore all the parts you don't want.
I will say that they layout is a bit crowded. It would be nice if, instead of saving a few pixels (or pages) they'd spread out some of the 'blocks' into columns.
Why do the monsters have a complete character stats/sheet? Not to start any kind of flame war at all BUT when I run PFRPG it is a task! Has there ever been any though on simplifying monsters? It would make is much easier to run and write adventures.
What do you think?
As much as some people would love to go back to the days of 2E, where a monster stat block could be fit in 2 lines, the game would be boring very quickly when the PCs are fighting cookie-cutter monsters whose only difference is their AC, attack bonus, and hp and maybe a special ability.
Personally, I wish more monsters had more unique abilities to better separate them apart, or at least a host of abilities in a sidebar and the DM can pick and choose which ones he wants for the creature.
4E does it where each monster is specifically tied to a specific niche. An Ogre Basher, for example, will be the perfect large creature you'd want that just wants to bash, and all its stats and abilities will be based solely on bashing. An Ogre Defender, however, will be built for endurance and high AC and abilities tied to being unmovable and unrelenting.
While this leaves very little room for customization (adding elite, solo, or a template to the creatures are the only quick ways to tailor 4E monsters), it makes a DM's job simpler. The other problem, though, is the reason why you see over 4,273 monsters in 4E, most of which are all the same creature (10+ ogres, 30+ goblins, 10+ hill giants, etc.)
I like one base creature and one only, maybe 1 or 2 different types if necessary. Give them abilities to make them unique, and alternate abilities, and you're fine. It also leaves room for tons of tailoring more from templates, skills, feats, ability scores, size, class levels, etc.
Very few people ever tapped the full potential of 2E monster manual because they never understood the full 2E rules. There are no situation in 3.5 that can not be solved with 2E rules effectively and simply. I still play 2E games as well as pathfinder games.
Here's the problem -- if the bestiary did that for each monster then we would have less monsters with lots of repeated text. Instead they said "This ability shows up often enough that we'll make it universal and you can just check it in the back."
Now no one ever said the GM's job was easy -- it isn't. This is part of what makes it difficult -- you have all the monsters you must know as well as abilities, while the players only have one character.
It is also why the GM is supposed to receive more respect and generally get a pass while at the table. Because he does have more to think about and do.
Well said, sir. Well said.
Greg
Here's the problem -- if the bestiary did that for each monster then we would have less monsters with lots of repeated text. Instead they said "This ability shows up often enough that we'll make it universal and you can just check it in the back."
For a dead tree book this makes sense as you're paying by page.
For a computerized version however it would be nice to generate 'a monster character sheet' so to speak automatically from the bestiary. Would be a nice thing to see the SRD do without links (think of them all as expanded) as a DM aide.
As to the breaking down of bonuses (skills especially) this would be helpful in spotting errors and building on top of standard monsters.
-James
Well get busy then! I'm half way serious with that by the way -- Paizo makes the dead tree version -- if you want to see an electronic copy that does everything for you there, then you should help make one in such a way. It's volunteer labor that makes such things happen.
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Why do the monsters have a complete character stats/sheet? Not to start any kind of flame war at all BUT when I run PFRPG it is a task! Has there ever been any though on simplifying monsters? It would make is much easier to run and write adventures.
What do you think?
As much as some people would love to go back to the days of 2E, where a monster stat block could be fit in 2 lines, the game would be boring very quickly when the PCs are fighting cookie-cutter monsters whose only difference is their AC, attack bonus, and hp and maybe a special ability.
Well back in the 2E (and 1E, Basic, and 0E) monsters were very simple and it worked fine just a different style of play. Don't get me wrong with the explanations here I am warming back up to the big ol stat block just as long as it never becomes like 4th which I played until a few months ago. I hate combats that last all night. I like in the old days making it through 10-20 encounters a night. AT least with Pathfinder you still can make a megadungeon! You can with 4th but it would take years to go through.
The only time I fully stat out a monster is if it is a big bad guy.
The monsters are complex if you need them to be, but you usually don't need it. 90% of my monsters are scaled to the party and I often change them on the fly. I've only done full stats for NPCs or monsters if they were going to be recurring characters and even then, I kind of stat them as I go so they fit my needs. Otherwise, I just keep the books handy for anything weird that pops up. Inevitably, someone will say something like, "why is his touch AC so high? Did he drink Cat's Grace?" The answer will always be, "obviously!" ;)