| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Over on EN World, there seems to be a great deal of speculation about the health, direction, and even the future ownership of 4e and Dungeons & Dragons as a brand. While I attribute 80% of it to Internet-forum "I'm bored" or "Sky is falling" -type posts, apparently there is little new 4e product appearing on WotC's 2011 publishing schedule.
Some are even speculating that WotC might sell-off or license the intellectual property of the D&D brand. (I don't believe this at this point.) In a delicious turn of irony, some are suggesting that if this comes to pass, the "best case" scenario is that Paizo picks up D&D.
While I find the irony of pro-4e fans speculating a Paizo licensing/purchase of the unstoppable D&D juggernaught amusing, if this highly unlikely situation would arise, I wish to express the following, sincere plea to Paizo:
Don't f-ing do it. Please.
Frankly, you don't need it. While D&D has a large brand recognition within the RPG industry, outside of it, the value of the brand is questionable. Novels - there are far more valuable IPs/brands out there. Video Games - Warcraft trumps D&D by huge orders of magnitude.
If you keep doing what you've been doing with Pathfinder, I think there is a strong possibility that Pathfinder could ultimately eclipse D&D within the hobby.
Clearly, Paizo is already bucking the conventional wisdom:
"3e/OGL games are done" - yet here we have a flourishing Pathfinder game that evolved out of that vintage. All while competing against the current edition of D&D.
"Modules don't sell" - yet APs are Paizo's biggest sellers
"GMs want to make their own fluff"/"Settings need a focused hook/theme" - yet Golarion sourcebooks continue to sell and be developed, despite being a "kitchen sink" setting
Your recipe is working! Keep it up!
My kids have NEVER played Dungeons & Dragons. They do, however, LOVE playing Pathfinder.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Paizo acquiring D&D would allow them to select and re-publish a variety of closed content 3.5 material, not to mention iconic monsters and settings.
Sounds good to me.
If they can aqcuire the name and make sure they keep it (no give back clauses) then I'm all for it, as long as they BURN 4e.
From a profitability standpoint, they could double their staff and keep both lines alive. Who knows.
4E is teh debil!!
The problem is WotC, and by WotC I mean Hasbro, can't figure out what the hell they are doing with 4e.
My advice: Don't listen to people trying to read the future in tea leaves.
The simple fact of the matter is unless you are pretty high up in the ranks of Hasbro you really have no solid understanding of sales, profitability, strategic vision, etc for the WotC division much less the D&D brand within the WotC division.
Reducing the number of new products isn't really a bad thing if doing that frees up resources to work on alternative projects. 4e and Essentials is a mature product line at this point and it's inevitable that there will be a certain decline in sales at this point.
That doesn't mean that the brand is dying or is going to be sold off or anything. It just means that from a financial perspective fewer products make more business sense.
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
|
While I attribute 80% of it to Internet-forum "I'm bored" or "Sky is falling" -type posts, apparently there is little new 4e product appearing on WotC's 2011 publishing schedule.
You're correct to discount the speculation. People have been speculating about WotC being sold to other companies or being spun off by Hasbro ever since Pokemon lost its top spot to Yu-Gi-Oh! and WotC stopped publishing it. I even remember a "source" within Upper Deck (the former publishers of the World of Warcraft Trading Card Game) telling me that Upper Deck was within weeks of purchasing WotC. Anyone know what Upper Deck publishes anymore? Nothing relevant is the correct answer.
WotC is doing what every company out there is doing: figuring out how to survive during a downturn in the economy. D&D kept them alive during a drop in Magic sales. Now, Magic is keeping them alive during a drop in D&D sales (and they're selling more Magic than they've ever sold in their history - don't let anyone tell you differently). Essentials is revitalizing interest in D&D, and that brand will be fine, as well. They have stopped production of side projects because, face it, side projects don't work during times when people are spending less money.
Furthermore, I suspect Paizo smiled broadly when they read the idea that they will purchase WotC. They're doing well, but I'd be very surprised if they had the buying power to acquire a company such as Wizards from its parent company, Hasbro. Fun as that turnabout would be, don't bet on ever seeing it.
Not to mention they are trying to milk money out of consumers in a way less related to actually producing content in the way of books.
ASIDE: Did Pokemon tank before or after Nintendo took it back in house and started screwing with the rules?
As a pure speculation...
If they could, they should. Paizo already has stewardship of the traditions in all but name. I have no idea the reality of the scenario, but I am sure that Paizo would be the best company to manage the sacred IP.
Not to mention they are trying to milk money out of consumers in a way less related to actually producing content in the way of books.
+1.
I get the feeling that someone at WotC decided: "Well, kids can pirate our books, but they can't pirate this Castle Ravenloft board game! We'll make more stuff like that instead."
Not to mention they are trying to milk money out of consumers in a way less related to actually producing content in the way of books.
+1.
I get the feeling that someone at WotC decided: "Well, kids can pirate our books, but they can't pirate this Castle Ravenloft board game! We'll make more stuff like that instead."
That's also why they stopped releasing updates for their external character creator in October.
I'm all for Paizo keeping the Pathfinder and letting the D&D go it's own way. Not that I believe that the there is some apocalypse approaching the D&D. I think they may be focusing on something else at the moment and... well, not chrunning out inceasingly bad products.
|
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
|
ASIDE: Did Pokemon tank before or after Nintendo took it back in house and started screwing with the rules?
It gave up the number one spot in sales to Yuckyho about seven years ago. It's still one of the top selling games due to its presence at Target and Wal-Mart, but is nearly nonexistent in the hobby channel for that exact same reason. Hasbro owned WotC dropped it when it became apparent that this was going to happen, and Nintendo began its stewardship. There may have been another publisher in between, but I don't recall.
Ironically, the largest reason WotC was acquired by Hasbro was because of Pokemon.
And even being owned by Habro, D&D stuff isn't getting into big box stores. Not in any notable quantity at least.
|
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
|
And even being owned by Habro, D&D stuff isn't getting into big box stores. Not in any notable quantity at least.
Sure it is. Next time you go to Target, Borders, or Barnes & Noble, look for the Essentials line. It's there, and in a lot of stores, front and center. That's why Essentials was created: to have an easy to maintain POP product in big box stores that will drive new customers into the hobby. We're seeing the results every day at my store as kids come in after seeing it at one of those stores and buying the Red Box. Their appetite gets whetted, and they come to the hobby stores to get their questions answered.
And then I switch them to Pathfinder >evil grin<
Getting the D&D brand would mean Paizo could start using beholders and Planescape. That is enough for me to be completely possitive about such a thing.
But as previously mentioned, all the supposed evidence of this is based on extremely short-term information about the performance of the company, something that means very little in practical terms.
|
Getting the D&D brand would mean Paizo could start using beholders and Planescape. That is enough for me to be completely possitive about such a thing.
But as previously mentioned, all the supposed evidence of this is based on extremely short-term information about the performance of the company, something that means very little in practical terms.
Honestly, I hope that someday Hasbro sells off the D&D IP a'la carte and Paizo picks Planescape up.
Yes, I knew it!
After the countless threads on EN a year ago about the mad crazy amount of new 4e material published by WotC, now, that they seem to focus on other things D&D (Ravenloft Boardgame going very strong fi.) the fans on EN predict the sell out of the entire brand...
Seems to be premature, but what do I know.
Does anybody have links to actual numbers? Sales of books, regular players, etc.?
|
That doesn't mean that the brand is dying or is going to be sold off or anything. It just means that from a financial perspective fewer products make more business sense.
Exactly. Which is why they dropped the Star Wars license last year, which dropped the Star Wars Saga Edition rpg and Star Wars Miniatures. Oh, and Heroscape, too. Also, if they havent dropped Axis and Allies Miniatures yet, it's likely on the chopping block as well.
The only things they are concerned with are MtG and DnD. Both product lines continuE, but are slowing down, and giving less than they used to. Magic just stopped its rewards program thing they had going, and as previously discussed, they are releasing fewer 4e books.
Im not saying they are tailspinning out of control and gonna close up shop anytime soon or anything, but there is a reason (aside from 4e just sucking compared to 3.5/PF) that PF was tied in sales with 4e recently.
My question is if WotC ends up selling the license to DnD, and someone other than Paizo buys it, can this new mystery company decide to end the OGL? I would imagine they couldnt do anything about Paizo products that have already been released under it, but would new product be allowed to use those same OGL rules, or would that come to an end?
And even being owned by Habro, D&D stuff isn't getting into big box stores. Not in any notable quantity at least.Sure it is. Next time you go to Target, Borders, or Barnes & Noble, look for the Essentials line.
Book stores don't count. They already had a number of at least D&D books for years. Every find any D&D books or miniatures in Target or Wal-Mart? Anywhere?
My bet is after a year or two, D&D is turned entirely into a Board + Card game like they are doing through their revival of Gamma World. Collectible Card Game RPG Board Game? $$$$$$$$
|
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
|
But as previously mentioned, all the supposed evidence of this is based on extremely short-term information about the performance of the company, something that means very little in practical terms.
It's not even based on that. There are no public figures available for WotC's viability. There are figures for Hasbro and, guess what, that company is doing just fine. But they don't have to break each division down, so finding out how WotC is doing is next to impossible.
There is no evidence. It's rampant speculation.
My question is if WotC ends up selling the license to DnD, and someone other than Paizo buys it, can this new mystery company decide to end the OGL? I would imagine they couldnt do anything about Paizo products that have already been released under it, but would new product be allowed to use those same OGL rules, or would that come to an end?
My understanding is no -- that the OGL toothpaste is already out of the tube and can't be stuffed back in, so to speak.
|
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
|
Book stores don't count. They already had a number of at least D&D books for years. Every find any D&D books or miniatures in Target or Wal-Mart? Anywhere?And even being owned by Habro, D&D stuff isn't getting into big box stores. Not in any notable quantity at least.Sure it is. Next time you go to Target, Borders, or Barnes & Noble, look for the Essentials line.
I have a personal policy of not setting foot inside a Wal-Mart, so I can't answer that. But, yes, you can find it at Target.
Now, why don't Borders and Barnes & Noble count? They are the definition of "Big Box" when it comes to books and games. They are an enormous player in the hobby game industry, even if their staff has no idea. I can point to numerous games that sold incredibly well in my store until one day appearing at one of those stores. At that very moment, sales on that product stopped being "automatic" and we had to start competing.
My understanding is no -- that the OGL toothpaste is already out of the tube and can't be stuffed back in, so to speak.
My question is if WotC ends up selling the license to DnD, and someone other than Paizo buys it, can this new mystery company decide to end the OGL? I would imagine they couldnt do anything about Paizo products that have already been released under it, but would new product be allowed to use those same OGL rules, or would that come to an end?
Yep, by all accounts that I've read, including gamers who are lawyers weighing in, that Genie is out of the bottle for good. If WotC could have killed the OGL, they would have done so.
In my opinion WotC's frequent shifts in direction do not bode well for D&D -- at least not in its present incarnation.
They are just slowing down production as to focus on the release of 4.5 Edition.
I have a personal policy of not setting foot inside a Wal-Mart, so I can't answer that. But, yes, you can find it at Target.
I have never seen a single book or miniature pack at Target or Wal-Mart or any other big box store.
They are an enormous player in the hobby game industry, even if their staff has no idea.
Being exactly why they don't count.
|
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
|
Im not saying they are tailspinning out of control and gonna close up shop anytime soon or anything, but there is a reason (aside from 4e just sucking compared to 3.5/PF) that PF was tied in sales with 4e recently.
Why is the reason not because Paizo put out a good product that people like? Why is it because D&D fell? Yes, it's a combination of both, but it is not exclusively because D&D has "no sales potential." Not that Paizo will share any more than WotC, but if they were to give sales figures, the increases year over year are probably pretty impressive. You don't catch up to the leader by waiting for them to drop back.
My question is if WotC ends up selling the license to DnD, and someone other than Paizo buys it, can this new mystery company decide to end the OGL?
Unequivocally, no.
Besides when has HASBRO ever sold an IP? They sit on it, bring it back out in a few years. If 4E tanks they shut the RPG line down, license out the Video game rights, t-shirts, card, minis, board game and anything else they can milk it for.
I can't recall Hasbro ever simply selling an IP they could milk or shelf and milk again 10 or 20 years later.
|
|
My understanding is no -- that the OGL toothpaste is already out of the tube and can't be stuffed back in, so to speak.
My question is if WotC ends up selling the license to DnD, and someone other than Paizo buys it, can this new mystery company decide to end the OGL? I would imagine they couldnt do anything about Paizo products that have already been released under it, but would new product be allowed to use those same OGL rules, or would that come to an end?Yep, by all accounts that I've read, including gamers who are lawyers weighing in, that Genie is out of the bottle for good. If WotC could have killed the OGL, they would have done so.
Yup. OGL is un-revoke-able. Thanks, Ryan and Peter !
|
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
|
I have never seen a single book or miniature pack at Target or Wal-Mart or any other big box store.
I have a personal policy of not setting foot inside a Wal-Mart, so I can't answer that. But, yes, you can find it at Target.
Go look again. You'll find it. I did. I even took pictures to show my staff.
They are an enormous player in the hobby game industry, even if their staff has no idea.Being exactly why they don't count.
As tempting as it is to discount them due to this reason, doing so is death to any store selling product they carry. I certainly don't consider them an equal in terms of knowledge and customer retention on these products, but any single store's sales in this category blow my store's sales away, I'm sure. And I do $500k per year.
I have never seen a single book or miniature pack at Target or Wal-Mart or any other big box store.
I have a personal policy of not setting foot inside a Wal-Mart, so I can't answer that. But, yes, you can find it at Target.Go look again. You'll find it. I did. I even took pictures to show my staff.
Never seen it around here, but online walmart has the 4e DMG,, MM but no PHB
But walmart.com also has pathfinder as well.
Edit: It also says non of that is sold in stores
Go look again. You'll find it. I did. I even took pictures to show my staff.
Not unless they are somewhere either than the toys/games section, the TC/TCG/CCG section, and the book section.
As tempting as it is to discount them due to this reason, doing so is death to any store selling product they carry. I certainly don't consider them an equal in terms of knowledge and customer retention on these products, but any single store's sales in this category blow my store's sales away, I'm sure. And I do $500k per year.
You don't see the point I am making. They don't count because they have been carrying D&D products for years. It isn't some magical thing that just started when the "We can't decide if we want to cater to new-to-D&D or old-fogey players" Redbox came out.
Joking aside though, it has been repeatedly observed on other threads that Hasbro doesn't part with Intellectual Property - so it seems to me that when 4e does reach the 'out of print permanently' status (which may well be several years off yet) a Hasbro 5e is the likeliest outcome that would keep a game legally entitled to use the D&D trademark on shop shelves.
I disagree. It will be a combination of starter sets and Gamma World - a Collectible Card Game RPG Collectible Piece Board Game. A complete and total money making venture that will make the video game industry's "DLC" system look virginal in comparison.
|
I have a personal policy of not setting foot inside a Wal-Mart, so I can't answer that. But, yes, you can find it at Target.I have never seen a single book or miniature pack at Target or Wal-Mart or any other big box store.
I have seen miniature packs at Wal-Mart. I have not seen books there, but I have seen ads for the Red Box that proclaim that it is available at Target. If the Red Box is there, it seems logical that they would also sell at least the Essentials books there.
Go look again. You'll find it. I did. I even took pictures to show my staff.Not unless they are somewhere either than the toys/games section, the TC/TCG/CCG section, and the book section.
Target if I recall is set to carry the red box, wal-mart only carries it online however.
Besides when has HASBRO ever sold an IP?
They don't sell, but sometimes they license. At least, WotC did/does.
Example: Ravenloft licensed to Arthaus during the early 3.X years.
|
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
|
Go look again. You'll find it. I did. I even took pictures to show my staff.Not unless they are somewhere either than the toys/games section, the TC/TCG/CCG section, and the book section.
As tempting as it is to discount them due to this reason, doing so is death to any store selling product they carry. I certainly don't consider them an equal in terms of knowledge and customer retention on these products, but any single store's sales in this category blow my store's sales away, I'm sure. And I do $500k per year.You don't see the point I am making. They don't count because they have been carrying D&D products for years. It isn't some magical thing that just started when the "We can't decide if we want to cater to new-to-D&D or old-fogey players" Redbox came out.
Okay, point made. They're not new to the scene.
But the Essentials line gives them a more easily merchandised item that takes next to no maintenance. This changes what they will do, in terms of how and where they sell it. It definitely bends their outlook on this product back toward a Big Box mentality. They no longer *have* to know what that product is. They merely need to know that any player can play D&D, in its entirety, by purchasing one of each of the ten Essentials products. Their staff can do this with no issues.
They don't sell, but sometimes they license. At least, WotC did/does.
Example: Ravenloft licensed to Arthaus during the early 3.X years.
Yeah I know they Licenses. but they do not sell IP. So its kinda pointless to hope someone will buy when its not for sale.
Go look again. You'll find it. I did. I even took pictures to show my staff.I have never seen a single book or miniature pack at Target or Wal-Mart or any other big box store.
I have a personal policy of not setting foot inside a Wal-Mart, so I can't answer that. But, yes, you can find it at Target.
+1. I was considering going there to get miniatures not that long ago before I discovered dragonfire laser studios.
I can tell why you don't need to bother counting B&N. The company is dropping like a stone and has closed almost every one of its numerous stores in my region. They may very well be going Net-only like Amazon.
Now, why don't Borders and Barnes & Noble count? They are the definition of "Big Box" when it comes to books and games. They are an enormous player in the hobby game industry, even if their staff has no idea. I can point to numerous games that sold incredibly well in my store until one day appearing at one of those stores. At that very moment, sales on that product stopped being "automatic" and we had to start competing.
They've rolled back in my area too, but not by much- the gigantic ones in Brooklyn and Manhattan are still open.
Yeah I know they Licenses. but they do not sell IP. So its kinda pointless to hope someone will buy when its not for sale.
They don't sell, but sometimes they license. At least, WotC did/does.
Example: Ravenloft licensed to Arthaus during the early 3.X years.
If you read the original post of the thread, it's in part about licensing the D&D IP.
I have noticed any contraction in Barnes & Noble. Perhaps you are thinking of Borders/Waldenbooks? We never had a Borders here and we had a tiny Waldenbooks in the mall and that got pulled.
|
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
|
I can tell why you don't need to bother counting B&N. The company is dropping like a stone and has closed almost every one of its numerous stores in my region. They may very well be going Net-only like Amazon.
The dichotomy this creates in my brain is almost painful. I hate Amazon almost as much as I hate Wal-Mart, but the idea of watching them destroy Barnes & Noble's brick and mortar viability with the thoroughness of the Mongol Horde makes me grin with anticipation.
|
|
Book stores don't count. They already had a number of at least D&D books for years. Every find any D&D books or miniatures in Target or Wal-Mart? Anywhere?
Actually back in the day I used to find the odd TSR product in Kmarts, KB Toys and other shops. Got some Darksun products from a strip mall KB Toys and then I had some Dragon Dice at a Kmart.
That was sometime in the late 1990's too. So it's not like that kind of thing hasn't happened in the past, though that might be partially responsible for TSR's and GDW's downfall in the form of mass returned product.
I wouldn't be against Paizo picking up the brand if somehow it were offered for sale (which seems improbable) and they somehow had the cash to buy it (which seems unlikely given the scale of it) and actually wanted to do something with it.
That said it would be awesome to see new stuff for Greyhawk, Planescape and Birthright using the Pathfinder RPG rules.
I have noticed any contraction in Barnes & Noble. Perhaps you are thinking of Borders/Waldenbooks? We never had a Borders here and we had a tiny Waldenbooks in the mall and that got pulled.
Yeah, B&N is INCREDIBLY strong at the moment. They're not having issues.
Borders is hemorrhaging horribly, and quite a few of it's suppliers have stopped shipping product to them.
On-topic, while it's not going to happen, and I think Paizo has said (or would say) that they're not interested, it'd be nice to see them acquire the brand and the IP to use in Pathfinder, and to "protect" the brand.
I wouldn't want them to rebrand Pathfinder at this point. Pathfinder has it's own success, and doesn't "need" the D&D name.
D&D-branded products in the future, though? Might be cool.