That said it would be awesome to see new stuff for Greyhawk, Planescape and Birthright using the Pathfinder RPG rules.
THAT is where a Paizo-owned D&D brand would be fantastic!
Keep Pathfinder, but some limited re-releases of classic campaign settings under the D&D name? Very sweet.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Hmmm...
Interesting. WotC has been experimenting with stand-alone products in their Magic line, and those have apparently been doing well given the number of such products released. Magic is a different beast entirely, and I can't imagine those products would replace the core line, but the argument could be made that this is the same strategy being applied to D&D. Effectively, you try and break the market into two segments - those who play the game on an on-going basis and purchase all products/have a subscription, and casual gamers who will pick up a stand-alone product with the D&D brand.
So, in theory, this isn't a sign that the rpg brand is doing poorly, it's just an attempt to refocus, but I'm not a subscriber to that theory. You don't mess with success, and if anything WotC had tried to roll out for D&D before were working, they'd keep doing it. Plus, Magic is a significantly stronger product line than D&D. D&D is still being run in an erratic manner and looks more like they're throwing everything they can think of at the wall to see what sticks.
Oh well. Best of luck to them and their players in finding their way.
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Why is the reason not because Paizo put out a good product that people like? Why is it because D&D fell? Yes, it's a combination of both, but it is not exclusively because D&D has "no sales potential." Not that Paizo will share any more than WotC, but if they were to give sales figures, the increases year over year are probably pretty impressive. You don't catch up to the leader by waiting for them to drop back.
I didnt say that it wasnt both, but Paizo's quality of prduct isnt the issue here; WotC's slow collapse in selling quality product is.
Edit: And thanks for all the quick answers about the OGL. That makes me happy lol.
Why is the reason not because Paizo put out a good product that people like? Why is it because D&D fell? Yes, it's a combination of both, but it is not exclusively because D&D has "no sales potential." Not that Paizo will share any more than WotC, but if they were to give sales figures, the increases year over year are probably pretty impressive. You don't catch up to the leader by waiting for them to drop back.
I didnt say that it wasnt both, but Paizo's quality of prduct isnt the issue here; WotC's slow collapse in selling quality product is.
Yeah, that's not the issue either.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Paizo acquiring D&D would allow them to select and re-publish a variety of closed content 3.5 material, not to mention iconic monsters and settings.
Sounds good to me.
if that's the case, then they would be able to finish maure castle.
and if that's the case, then i say "sounds great to me!"
Yeah, that's not the issue either.Issue the OP was making, no. Issue that I was making, yes. So thanks.
Your subjective impression of 4e as a game is not remotely relevant here.
So, in theory, this isn't a sign that the rpg brand is doing poorly, it's just an attempt to refocus, but I'm not a subscriber to that theory. You don't mess with success, and if anything WotC had tried to roll out for D&D before were working, they'd keep doing it. Plus, Magic is a significantly stronger product line than D&D. D&D is still being run in an erratic manner and looks more like they're throwing everything they can think of at the wall to see what sticks.
This +1. For all the claims that 4e is healthy & that nothing can touch the D&D brand, you don't rock the boat if it's making revenue. Expand it by trying new things? Absolutely. To my uniformed-outside view of things, however, current events don't strike me as expansion or re-focusing, but rather desperation or a foundational shift.
They've rolled back in my area too, but not by much- the gigantic ones in Brooklyn and Manhattan are still open.I can tell why you don't need to bother counting B&N. The company is dropping like a stone and has closed almost every one of its numerous stores in my region. They may very well be going Net-only like Amazon.
Now, why don't Borders and Barnes & Noble count? They are the definition of "Big Box" when it comes to books and games. They are an enormous player in the hobby game industry, even if their staff has no idea. I can point to numerous games that sold incredibly well in my store until one day appearing at one of those stores. At that very moment, sales on that product stopped being "automatic" and we had to start competing.
Theres also still a large one on staten island.
Theres also still a large one on staten island.They've rolled back in my area too, but not by much- the gigantic ones in Brooklyn and Manhattan are still open.I can tell why you don't need to bother counting B&N. The company is dropping like a stone and has closed almost every one of its numerous stores in my region. They may very well be going Net-only like Amazon.
Now, why don't Borders and Barnes & Noble count? They are the definition of "Big Box" when it comes to books and games. They are an enormous player in the hobby game industry, even if their staff has no idea. I can point to numerous games that sold incredibly well in my store until one day appearing at one of those stores. At that very moment, sales on that product stopped being "automatic" and we had to start competing.
We (as a city and not general area) have 2 B&N and 2 BAMM (3 technically due to weird zoning), and I don't live in any place half so large as any of those.
D&D is still being run in an erratic manner and looks more like they're throwing everything they can think of at the wall to see what sticks.
+1.
It really feels like there's some management churn there and that each new group making decisions either doesn't understand or doesn't agree with the reasons for previous decisions.
For example, it really feels to me that at some point management began to see the OGL as a liability and didn't understand (or didn't care about) the mileage they'd gotten out of it.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Re: Licensing
Hasbro might license out the D&D brand, I'm not sure who would make an RPG based on it though. Look at the way they pulled all their licenses back with 3.x. Would anyone want to invest the time and capital into a new RPG/Setting only to have the license pulled and it become 'Generic RPG 2348'?
Hasbro won't sell. If I were to hazzard a guess <wild speculation> They might take a hint from Marvel, and roll out new producs to tie in to the Book of Vile Darkness movie we're hearing rumours about. </wild speculation>
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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This +1. For all the claims that 4e is healthy & that nothing can touch the D&D brand, you don't rock the boat if it's making revenue. Expand it by trying new things? Absolutely. To my uniformed-outside view of things, however, current events don't strike me as expansion or re-focusing, but rather desperation or a foundational shift.So, in theory, this isn't a sign that the rpg brand is doing poorly, it's just an attempt to refocus, but I'm not a subscriber to that theory. You don't mess with success, and if anything WotC had tried to roll out for D&D before were working, they'd keep doing it. Plus, Magic is a significantly stronger product line than D&D. D&D is still being run in an erratic manner and looks more like they're throwing everything they can think of at the wall to see what sticks.
There is no claim that needs to be made. I have seen increases in D&D sales every year since 4E came out. And the increases are not small. And I am not alone in this. Is the player base stagnant? Yes. That's why they're doing Essentials: to revitalize the old base and bring in new players. And it is working. I agree that it a fundamental shift, but it is certainly not desperate. It is doing exactly what they want it to do.
As for the "nothing can touch it" part - you're correct. That's silly. Everything is vulnerable. And if you don't adapt, you get left behind. WotC is doing a very good job of adapting.
Paizo does the same thing. They rebranded their Companion and Chronicles line recently. I saw no doom and gloom posts about that. And it worked, as well. I see far less confusion about what product goes to what buyer, now.
Even if Hasbro were to licence out D&D, I don´t think that paizo should pick up any of it, as it would force them to divert their attention (or hire a lot more staff on short notice...), which would spell trouble. The licence conditions would most probably not that lenient - I guess that even if the D&D brand were to be licenced, a rules system would be part of the package, and Hasbro/WotC would keep the copyrights of anything the licencee produces (see Dragon/Dungeon as an example). Some folks at paizo stated that they won´t go back to that. So, licensing is just straight out. As Hasbro most probably won´t sell anything, the chance of the D&D brand going anywhere is zero for all practical purposes.
This is fine with me, actually. As much as I would love to see, say, Greyhawk back in print, it would just cause paizo to lose focus, which I would consider a bad thing. So, anybody wanting a specific setting will have to swallow used-market prices for quite a long time (planescape, I look at you...)
Stefan
My dream scenario would be Paizo releasing what would amount to a slightly cleaned up / second edition of Pathfinder but being able to brand it is D&D 5th edition, and then we would pretend 4E never happened.
(I think 4E is a beautifully designed games in many ways. I just don't want to play it. To be clear, I have played it in the past, but I don't think I want to again.)
As some one who has actually played 4e, I'd say the game could use some updating to deal with the way powers are handled and limited.
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I was just looking at the Wizards catalog and I counted eight D&D products being released in the first six months of the year. While there does seem to be some slowing but nothing that indicates that the roof is about to collapse anytime soon. There are no new core rulebooks on the list right now, but that may have been played out by now. Certainly not everything that is coming out would appeal to me, the dungeon tiles are a prime example, but at least two of the supplements (Heroes of Shadow and Threats of the Nentir Vale) are on my list to at least consider buying.
My dream scenario would be Paizo releasing what would amount to a slightly cleaned up / second edition of Pathfinder but being able to brand it is D&D 5th edition, and then we would pretend 4E never happened.
(I think 4E is a beautifully designed games in many ways. I just don't want to play it. To be clear, I have played it in the past, but I don't think I want to again.)
I would never want to see that. I like pathfinder as its own thing, it is no longer just a d&d clone to me and I do not want to see it shackled as such.
That and I do not think paizo has any interest in giving up pathfinder to be shackled with the threat of losing a license again.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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My dream scenario would be Paizo releasing what would amount to a slightly cleaned up / second edition of Pathfinder but being able to brand it is D&D 5th edition, and then we would pretend 4E never happened.I would never want to see that. I like pathfinder as its own thing, it is no longer just a d&d clone to me and I do not want to see it shackled as such.
That and I do not think paizo has any interest in giving up pathfinder to be shackled with the threat of losing a license again.
I absolutely agree with the first statement. And Paizo has said multiple times, in multiple discussions, that their stance is in agreement with the second statement.
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My dream scenario would be Paizo releasing what would amount to a slightly cleaned up / second edition of Pathfinder but being able to brand it is D&D 5th edition, and then we would pretend 4E never happened.
(I think 4E is a beautifully designed games in many ways. I just don't want to play it. To be clear, I have played it in the past, but I don't think I want to again.)
I would never want to see that. I like pathfinder as its own thing, it is no longer just a d&d clone to me and I do not want to see it shackled as such.
That and I do not think paizo has any interest in giving up pathfinder to be shackled with the threat of losing a license again.
+1 Seeker.
Yes, I think that Pathfinders future lies apart from D&D and that a totally separate development of the two brands has a good chance of producing something great on the pathfinder side.
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Paizo has repeatedly said that if they do expand to another campaign setting, that would be YEARS in the future. And really, other than adding a few WotC IP monsters / demon lord / etc, I think that's all that could really be gained by purchasing the D&D brand. While I'd love to see Greyhawk get a Paizo treatment (again...Paizo employees were pretty much the only people putting out Greyhawk stuff from 3.5 onwards), it won't happen.
And, as has been stated a few times already, Pathfinder is doing well on it's own. It may not have the immediate name recognition that D&D has even amongst non-gamers, but most gamers that I have met have know what it was, even if they hadn't tried it themselves. Hell, there's a SrA here in Kuwait who was one of the first ones that I met who hadn't heard of it...but he has now :)
Dare I speculate: 4.5ed!?
Dare I speculate: 4.5ed!?
Didn't they just make that? Ducks things thrown by 4e fans
Theres also still a large one on staten island.They've rolled back in my area too, but not by much- the gigantic ones in Brooklyn and Manhattan are still open.I can tell why you don't need to bother counting B&N. The company is dropping like a stone and has closed almost every one of its numerous stores in my region. They may very well be going Net-only like Amazon.
Now, why don't Borders and Barnes & Noble count? They are the definition of "Big Box" when it comes to books and games. They are an enormous player in the hobby game industry, even if their staff has no idea. I can point to numerous games that sold incredibly well in my store until one day appearing at one of those stores. At that very moment, sales on that product stopped being "automatic" and we had to start competing.
The Borders here in boulder is having weekly DND Essentials new player nights. So to say that after so many years that the big books stores still arent at least trying to gain some measure of knowledge base is also not entirely true.
Why yes this and thier carrying of games like Dominion and Catan are putting serious pressure on the game store my wife manages.
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Yep. Already out. It's called Essentials. >>hides behind seekerofshadowlight<<Dare I speculate: 4.5ed!?Didn't they just make that? Ducks things thrown by 4e fans
Are you talking about Red Box Essentials, Non-Red Box Essentials, or Barebones 4e Patched to Essentials, because that's at least three versions of the game ... ;-)
If you think things are bad with B&N, you've not been following what's been going on with Borders. Long and the short of it is that Diamond, who stock Borders with Graphic Novels, along with Fantasy Flight and Paizo Products, is no longer shipping stock to the chain, due to unpaid bills.
Yep. Already out. It's called Essentials. >>hides behind seekerofshadowlight<<Dare I speculate: 4.5ed!?Didn't they just make that? Ducks things thrown by 4e fans
They do get upset when that is called but look at places that talk about it. If you need to use an aberration like 4eE{ which is the one I see most} then it is a revision no matter if ya want to call it 4.5 or not.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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The Borders here in boulder is having weekly DND Essentials new player nights. So to say that after so many years that the big books stores still arent at least trying to gain some measure of knowledge base is also not entirely true.
Why yes this and thier carrying of games like Dominion and Catan are putting serious pressure on the game store my wife manages.
Absolutely. Again, that's why WotC did Essentials. It gives chain stores a way to present their product that takes next to no effort. If they land a player who wants to do weekly events, that's a huge bonus, and makes them even more of a competitor to hobby stores.
B&N recently did a Learn to Play Magic night, and was fully supported by WotC, who even offered exclusive product to judges who were willing to go to the stores and teach players how to play.
This just illustrates how much of an impact those stores can have on sales, and demonstrates why WotC pays attention to their model. They're not grasping at straws to survive; they're exploring options to increase their viability.
Theres also still a large one on staten island.They've rolled back in my area too, but not by much- the gigantic ones in Brooklyn and Manhattan are still open.I can tell why you don't need to bother counting B&N. The company is dropping like a stone and has closed almost every one of its numerous stores in my region. They may very well be going Net-only like Amazon.
Now, why don't Borders and Barnes & Noble count? They are the definition of "Big Box" when it comes to books and games. They are an enormous player in the hobby game industry, even if their staff has no idea. I can point to numerous games that sold incredibly well in my store until one day appearing at one of those stores. At that very moment, sales on that product stopped being "automatic" and we had to start competing.
The Borders here in boulder is having weekly DND Essentials new player nights. So to say that after so many years that the big books stores still arent at least trying to gain some measure of knowledge base is also not entirely true.
Why yes this and thier carrying of games like Dominion and Catan are putting serious pressure on the game store my wife manages.
If your wife's store can hold out, I don't think Borders will be a problem for much longer. The chain is in dire financial straits, and has tried to sell itself off on numerous occasions (even B&N won't touch it with a barge pole). In the medium term, I expect it to close it's doors. It will suck for the Publishing Industry, but frankly, it's just not "too big to fail".
EDIT: As further proof, Borders is shutting down one of their three national distribution centers. As of right now, the chain is being propped up by the larger publishing houses, but in the long term, the situation is pretty untenable. Don't get me wrong, I loved my local Borders, but it was far too genteel and unresponsive in this current market, so was unsurprised when I found myself at their closing down sale last January.|
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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If your wife's store can hold out, I don't think Borders will be a problem for much longer. The chain is in dire financial straits, and has tried to sell itself off on numerous occasions (even B&N won't touch it with a barge pole). In the medium term, I expect it to close it's doors. It will suck for the Publishing Industry, but frankly, it's just not "too big to fail".
Once again the different voices in my head rejoice and mourn, both at the same time.
As much as I hate to see bookstores fail, the publishing industry has been undergoing drastic revisions in how they do business for some time. Borders (and, hopefully, B&N brick and mortar stores) doesn't cut the mustard. I will not be unhappy to see them leave due to the reasons Dragonsong and I have pointed out.
However, I have doubts that a company that recently opened up a brand-new flagship store in a major mall near me will fail completely. Borders, too, will be around after figuring things out, I'm sure.
[Edit] Due to firbolg's edit: As I said, I'll happily watch if that happens. My doubts are not based on research or firsthand knowledge; merely a "too good to be true" mentality...
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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3rd Edition was a big step in the direction of mandatory use of grid maps and miniatures, 4E is the end of that step.
IMO It is killing the pen&paper RPG industry, specially nowadays, not everyone wants to spend money in minis, and many people dislike pseudo-board games that aren't really board-games.
Yes, I know that 3rd Ed sold very well, but it had little or nothing to do with it being grid-map oriented.IMO As long as D&D keeps trying to be an hybrid of a board game and a rpg game it will slowly sell worse.
O.o
But...it's not selling worse. None of it is.
IMO It is killing the pen&paper RPG industry, specially nowadays, not everyone wants to spend money in minis, and many people dislike pseudo-board games that aren't really board-games.
No, the problem is Hasbro/WotC decided to super monetize miniatures and the custom miniature makers like Reaper aren't going to improve it by managing to be more expensive than D&D Miniatures.
Just wait until they turn it COMPLETELY into a CCG like Gamma World - they have already tested it out by adding (broken) powers to D&D miniature packs. They are going to hit it full bore with Gamma World then shift it to D&D. Though they might not because I expect most everyone to completely scoff at it in Gamma World, but I may be wrong from what I've heard and seen.|
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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IMO It is killing the pen&paper RPG industry, specially nowadays, not everyone wants to spend money in minis, and many people dislike pseudo-board games that aren't really board-games.No, the problem is Hasbro/WotC decided to super monetize miniatures and the custom miniature makers like Reaper aren't going to improve it by managing to be more expensive than D&D Miniatures.
Just wait until they turn it COMPLETELY into a CCG like Gamma World - they have already tested it out by adding (broken) powers to D&D miniature packs. They are going to hit it full bore with Gamma World then shift it to D&D. Though they might not because I expect most everyone to completely scoff at it in Gamma World, but I may be wrong from what I've heard and seen.
Have you seen the new Fortune Cards for 4e? They're a huge step in this direction.
O.oBut...it's not selling worse. None of it is.
In your store. I know others it does not sell well in. The bookstore around here says it does not move, they still have stock left from day 1. They have stopped ordering new 4e releases it does not move.
I have spoken with people who work for online stores who have told me the same thing, 4e sales for them are down.
Only wotc knows how they are doing over all.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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O.oBut...it's not selling worse. None of it is.
In your store. I know others it does not sell well in. The bookstore around here says it does not move, they still have stock left from day 1. They have stopped ordering new 4e releases it does not move.
I have spoken with people who work for online stores who have told me the same thing, 4e sales for them are down.
Only wotc knows how they are doing over all.
Yes, 4E sales are down. But Pathfinder sales are way up. Combine these two (and the constant hunt by some people for OOP 3.5e books), and more people are buying and playing D&D (the roleplaying game concept, not the brand) than ever before.
If your wife's store can hold out, I don't think Borders will be a problem for much longer. The chain is in dire financial straits, and has tried to sell itself off on numerous occasions (even B&N won't touch it with a barge pole). In the medium term, I expect it to close it's doors. It will suck for the Publishing Industry, but frankly, it's just not "too big to fail".Once again the different voices in my head rejoice and mourn, both at the same time.
As much as I hate to see bookstores fail, the publishing industry has been undergoing drastic revisions in how they do business for some time. Borders (and, hopefully, B&N brick and mortar stores) doesn't cut the mustard. I will not be unhappy to see them leave due to the reasons Dragonsong and I have pointed out.
However, I have doubts that a company that recently opened up a brand-new flagship store in a major mall near me will fail completely. Borders, too, will be around after figuring things out, I'm sure.
Sorry Drogon, I can't agree- a new Local Flagship may be part of this restructuring, but when distributors stop flogging a dead horse and won't ship any stock to you, because you can't pay your invoices, then it amounts to little more then folding out a lounge chair on the Titanic. I expect that if Borders does make it though the next few years, it'll be a ghost of itself, probably a few regional outlets. Books-a-Million (#3) may be taking a beating, but they've been pragmatic enough to ally themselves with the B&N Nook and haven't lost the faith of distributors like Borders has managed to do.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Ladies, Gentlemen, Gorbacz ;-)
Please let us not get bogged down in the merits or flaws of the 4x Mechanics. I personally think less product for WotC is a *good* thing in the long run, it (in theory) allows then to produce a higher quality product on that less frequent schedule.
(Paizo has been able to produce a monthly product line, but even they themselves will admit missteps and delays).
We don't have any concrete data on sales for any product, just local (and thus anecdotal) evidence. My FLGS has Pathfinder outselling 4.x, but other shops may report the opposite.
IF Hasbro is looking at shuttering 4.x and IF they were looking to sell/license the D&D brand I think most independents wouldn't touch it with a 10' pole. White Wolf might, but that's because they're owned by that MMO company and they'd want a MMO D&D game.
About Gamma World, I'm pretty sure that a CCD D&D will sell very well. But it will no longer be a P&P game.
You are demonstrably wrong.
The new generations of gamers think that RPG = miniatures and grid maps, because it is what the most famous RPG is becoming, it is really bad for the future of PnP games imho.
Also, demonstrably wrong.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I was referring to CCP, the Iceland group that 'merged' with White Wolf.
While I don't think 4.5 or 5.x D&D would be the Gamma World model Cartigan fears, I could see them taking a lesson from Catalyst.
When Classic Battletech started up again, they took embryonic steps towards the Dark Age. Now we’re up to 3085, the Jihad is over, and everyone’s rebuilding. We don’t ‘fear’ the Dark age anymore, at least in part because we now ‘know’ what happened in between. We know the Houses didn’t disarm, there wasn’t 50+ years of peace and love.
I could see a ‘mystic Gamma World’ type thing being done for Faerun. The 4e jump was similar “Gods go crazy, world blows up. It’s now 100 years later, everyone you love who isn’t a Chaotic Good Drow Ranger is dead or insane. This is the world.”
From what little I know about Gamma World mechanics, I could see them applying to a game set during that 100 years. It might help smooth over ruffled feathers, just as learning the ‘Hows’ of the Jihad have helped Battletech.
Well, unless you’re a home clan player, then you’re still going WTF happened?
Activision bought White Wolf?? When?
IF Hasbro is looking at shuttering 4.x and IF they were looking to sell/license the D&D brand I think most independents wouldn't touch it with a 10' pole. White Wolf might, but that's because they're owned by that MMO company and they'd want a MMO D&D game.
Not Activision, CCP, publishers of EVE Online. Unfortunately, since they're based out of Iceland, that's not looking too rosy either.
Well, unless you’re a home clan player, then you’re still going WTF happened?
I think that that will be addressed in the near futur
If PnP games with abstract movement rules sell better than 3.5&Company I want to know.
The new generations of gamers think that RPG = miniatures and grid maps, because it is what the most famous RPG is becoming, it is really bad for the future of PnP games imho.Also, demonstrably wrong.
You tell me that more concrete rules for how games work and easier methods for the visualization is bad for the hobby and I will tell you you are wrong.