I just had an idea, to combine the bombs of an Alchemist, to a Rogue.. is this good, or no?
Not much synergy in combat abilities, but flavor wise it sounds nice. Not sure you'll get much out of it outside of combat either.
Not much synergy in combat abilities, but flavor wise it sounds nice. Not sure you'll get much out of it outside of combat either.
Hmm, okay.. So sneak attack would not affect the damage a bomb does?
Sneak attack doesn't work with splash weapons and by extension it doesn't work with bombs.
Okay, thank you for clearing that up for me. :) Glad I wasn't missing anything.
Works better for a feral mutagen type, really, as sneak attack for 3 attacks per round can add up.
Taking ONE level of rogue as an alchemist allows you more use of Disable Device, as you can find and remove magical traps.
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Works better for a feral mutagen type, really, as sneak attack for 3 attacks per round can add up.
Yep, a 2 level dip into alchemist is about the best natural attacks you can get, the 1d6/ 1d8 is awesome, particularly when you enlarge. Much better than two weapon fighting... but being stuck at 20 minutes per day would kind of suck.
I think going the other way is the better bet, pick up a level of rogue (2 if you need trap finding and evasion) so you can add sneak attack damage to your feral mutagen.
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Works better for a feral mutagen type, really, as sneak attack for 3 attacks per round can add up.Yep, a 2 level dip into alchemist is about the best natural attacks you can get, the 1d6/ 1d8 is awesome, particularly when you enlarge. Much better than two weapon fighting... but being stuck at 20 minutes per day would kind of suck.
I think going the other way is the better bet, pick up a level of rogue (2 if you need trap finding and evasion) so you can add sneak attack damage to your feral mutagen.
Why would he be limited to 20 minutes per day? All he needs to do is spend an hour after every fight to make another dose of mutagen.
Why would he be limited to 20 minutes per day? All he needs to do is spend an hour after every fight to make another dose of mutagen.
Or a discovery and a lot of down time to have them prepared before hand.
I'd go with two levels of alchemist. A rogue who knows about poison and smoke bombs is going to do very well.
Works better for a feral mutagen type, really, as sneak attack for 3 attacks per round can add up.Yep, a 2 level dip into alchemist is about the best natural attacks you can get, the 1d6/ 1d8 is awesome, particularly when you enlarge. Much better than two weapon fighting... but being stuck at 20 minutes per day would kind of suck.
I think going the other way is the better bet, pick up a level of rogue (2 if you need trap finding and evasion) so you can add sneak attack damage to your feral mutagen.
agree 3 attacks at your full BAB can't be underestimated consider how many penalties you take for TWF and iterative attacks and the fact you can't match 3 attacks until 8th level
+6/+6/+6 ferral vs +4/+4/-1 TWF , I know which I'd prefer ;)oh and just on the 20 minutes per day I don't think thats entirely correct, dosen't acutally say you can only brew once per day it says takes 1 hour to brew so as long as your party gives you an hour after a fight you can brew another mutgaen in the same day.
I've also come to realise poison really only works if you not only coat your weapons but everyone elses weapons in the group and you focus attack to turn weak poisons into poisons with large DC's for a cheap cost as per this post I made last night
Group Poisoning
in fact I go as far as saying an alchemist poisioneer would work better poisoning other people weapons over his own since you just don't get that many attacks per round.
sticky poison also improves the economics, 1/3 cost to craft and then 4 uses per craft for a total of 1/12 cost per application.
of course you have to take at least 6 alchemist levels to get all the poison discoveries and poison abilites.
still an alch 6/rogue 14 would still be decent
Sometimes spending twenty minutes adventuring and an hour prepping is not practical. But it is certainly an option.
well you don't need to pop the mutgaen until the fight starts I guess it would depend how many encoutners a GM normall tries to run in a single day
1 and its not a problem
2 and you've got to take an hour out to handel both adequately
3 or more it starts beocmming an issue, so I guess its game specific.
It's an issue if/ when you have time constraints but not all encounters fit under that 20 minute window. Seems like bigger dungeon crawls are likely the worst, where picking a place to rest might be problematic.
*shrug* As you say it's campaign specific.
Playing Kingmaker at the moment and for the most part its 1 encounter per day or longer since the party sets the pace and travel time between locations allow for enough break time to get a mutgaen brewed, even night time encounters arn't an issue beucase you just brew a mutgaen before bed.
A thought on archetype synergy -- the poisoner rogue does give you the option for changing poison types -- once you have poison immunity it might be worthwhile to surround yourself in a fog of inhaled poisons instead of relying on injury based poisons.
A thought on archetype synergy -- the poisoner rogue does give you the option for changing poison types -- once you have poison immunity it might be worthwhile to surround yourself in a fog of inhaled poisons instead of relying on injury based poisons.
once you have poison immunity you can throw cloud kill bombs which are superior to pretty much every poison listed are free and with fast bombs can blanket a pretty precise area in cloudkill.
best part about cloudkill, you save and still take 1/2 dmg to your CON which reduces your Fort saves which means next round your less likely to make the Fort save and take more CON dmg which means next round your less likely to make the Fort save and take more CON dmg which means next round your less likely to make the Fort save and take more CON dmg
hehehe you get the idea ;)
A thought on archetype synergy -- the poisoner rogue does give you the option for changing poison types -- once you have poison immunity it might be worthwhile to surround yourself in a fog of inhaled poisons instead of relying on injury based poisons.once you have poison immunity you can throw cloud kill bombs which are superior to pretty much every poison listed are free and with fast bombs can blanket a pretty precise area in cloudkill.
best part about cloudkill, you save and still take 1/2 dmg to your CON which reduces your Fort saves which means next round your less likely to make the Fort save and take more CON dmg which means next round your less likely to make the Fort save and take more CON dmg which means next round your less likely to make the Fort save and take more CON dmg
hehehe you get the idea ;)
Which is great -- if you are of the appropriate level and burn through three of your discoveries, while not being in an anti-magic zone. However if you want to do it without going off on the detect magic radar and 2 levels earlier the synergy above is there. It's also good for times when you don't want to deal Con damage.
All in all what I'm saying is if you want to poison people the the combination of the poisoner rogue ability and the alchemist's poisoning abilities is rather nice.
A thought on archetype synergy -- the poisoner rogue does give you the option for changing poison types -- once you have poison immunity it might be worthwhile to surround yourself in a fog of inhaled poisons instead of relying on injury based poisons.once you have poison immunity you can throw cloud kill bombs which are superior to pretty much every poison listed are free and with fast bombs can blanket a pretty precise area in cloudkill.
best part about cloudkill, you save and still take 1/2 dmg to your CON which reduces your Fort saves which means next round your less likely to make the Fort save and take more CON dmg which means next round your less likely to make the Fort save and take more CON dmg which means next round your less likely to make the Fort save and take more CON dmg
hehehe you get the idea ;)
Which is great -- if you are of the appropriate level and burn through three of your discoveries, while not being in an anti-magic zone. However if you want to do it without going off on the detect magic radar and 2 levels earlier the synergy above is there. It's also good for times when you don't want to deal Con damage.
All in all what I'm saying is if you want to poison people the the combination of the poisoner rogue ability and the alchemist's poisoning abilities is rather nice.
are there any rules for how inhaled poisons can be delivered ? I mean how far does the gas spread what is considered multiple doses, say you left a vial of inhaled poison open on your person does the gas fill your entire 5ft square ? all adjacent squares ? how long does it last etc etc
Currently the only delivery method for inhaled poisons is from traps.
The only weird thing about cloud kill is it constantly moves away from you so you have to keep moving at 10' round.
There's this new spell in the APG called rampart, that can surround the target with a wall of earth and stone. Toss a cloudkill into it from above, and keep replenishing the rampart as needed. =)
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There's this new spell in the APG called rampart, that can surround the target with a wall of earth and stone. Toss a cloudkill into it from above, and keep replenishing the rampart as needed. =)Currently the only delivery method for inhaled poisons is from traps.
The only weird thing about cloud kill is it constantly moves away from you so you have to keep moving at 10' round.
Or the pit spells... or just walls. It just gets a little weird is all.
There's this new spell in the APG called rampart, that can surround the target with a wall of earth and stone. Toss a cloudkill into it from above, and keep replenishing the rampart as needed. =)Currently the only delivery method for inhaled poisons is from traps.
The only weird thing about cloud kill is it constantly moves away from you so you have to keep moving at 10' round.
the various wall spells stone iron and force work just as well especially in dungeon crawls there nothing quite as amusing as splitting half the encounter off diagonally in a corner of the room and popping a cloudkill behind it with them.
Kill off the other half then get front row seats and watch as the other half try to break through a wall of force as they slowly lose CON until they die ;)
for a new trick
cast one of those new pit spell have some hapless critter fall in and send down some cloudkill for him to suck on ;)
I really like all of these ideas. Cloudkill seems hella fun!
Sure... take an hour after every fight to prepare your mutagen.. No problem at all. *DM starts reaching for his dice and starts rolling for random encounters*Why would he be limited to 20 minutes per day? All he needs to do is spend an hour after every fight to make another dose of mutagen.
I think it's not very good gamemastering if the gamemasters rolls random encounters just because a character has an ability that needs an hour to prepare. It's kind of a same thing when someone casts resist energy fire and the GM uses that information to decide that monsters have attacks that deal acid damage... Kingmaker is a great campaign for Alchemist. It's a lot of exploration that takes a lot of time. If someone makes a good character for a certain type of campaign, I don't think there is a need to punish him for that by trying to stop him to prepare his resources. Of course the lands in Kingmaker are a dangerous place, there is a strong possibility that random encounters happen when alchemist is preparing his mutagen, someone is sleeping to regain his hitpoints and what ever, but a good GM should roll those encounters fairly and realistically, not when it's just a good time to punish the alchemist for playing his character.
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Sure... take an hour after every fight to prepare your mutagen.. No problem at all. *DM starts reaching for his dice and starts rolling for random encounters*Why would he be limited to 20 minutes per day? All he needs to do is spend an hour after every fight to make another dose of mutagen.
Depending on the group, an hour isn't that much time. Between the rogue wanting to search each enemy thoroughly, and the cleric or ranger wanting to bury enemies (for religious or sanitary reasons), you could have more than enough time to whip up a mutagen.
the various wall spells stone iron and force work just as well especially in dungeon crawls there nothing quite as amusing as splitting half the encounter off diagonally in a corner of the room and popping a cloudkill behind it with them.
You would have to cast the cloudkill then the wall of force since wall of force will block your line of effect and prevent you from placing the cloudkill where you want.
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I think it's not very good gamemastering if the gamemasters rolls random encounters just because a character has an ability that needs an hour to prepare. It's kind of a same thing when someone casts resist energy fire and the GM uses that information to decide that monsters have attacks that deal acid damage... Kingmaker is a great campaign for Alchemist. It's a lot of exploration that takes a lot of time. If someone makes a good character for a certain type of campaign, I don't think there is a need to punish him for that by trying to stop him to prepare his resources. Of course the lands in Kingmaker are a dangerous place, there is a strong possibility that random encounters happen when alchemist is preparing his mutagen, someone is sleeping to regain his hitpoints and what ever, but a good GM should roll those encounters fairly and realistically, not when it's just a good time to punish the alchemist for playing his character.
Ehh... It's also not very good game mastery to let players camp in the middle of a hostile dungeon with a free pass to take whatever time they want to do things. Dungeons in particular are 'live' places not a bunch of static encounters that occur when the PCs find it convenient.
If the players are attacking a goblin fort and the players decide to barricade themselves in a room those goblins aren't sitting around waiting for them. Outside a dungeon things are different, Kingmaker in particular makes things easy for alchemists because many of the encounters are isolated and spread way out. A GM shouldn't be rolling encounters there except during the windows where they are supposed to roll them. I haven't read KM because I'm not playing it. I suspect random encounters are rolled a couple times a day at specific times.
You would have to cast the cloudkill then the wall of force since wall of force will block your line of effect and prevent you from placing the cloudkill where you want.
the various wall spells stone iron and force work just as well especially in dungeon crawls there nothing quite as amusing as splitting half the encounter off diagonally in a corner of the room and popping a cloudkill behind it with them.
only if you don't leave a little space at the top of the wall and using flying to exploit that gap
or alternatively the best way is the 1,2 punch, quicken rod and fire off both in the same round ;)
only if you don't leave a little space at the top of the wall and using flying to exploit that gap
or alternatively the best way is the 1,2 punch, quicken rod and fire off both in the same round ;)
All true... but how is your alchemist going to do that? :D
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All true... but how is your alchemist going to do that? :Donly if you don't leave a little space at the top of the wall and using flying to exploit that gap
or alternatively the best way is the 1,2 punch, quicken rod and fire off both in the same round ;)
I think what he meant is the wizard should ready an action to cast wall of force as soon as your bomb goes off ;)
I think what he meant is the wizard should ready an action to cast wall of force as soon as your bomb goes off ;)All true... but how is your alchemist going to do that? :Donly if you don't leave a little space at the top of the wall and using flying to exploit that gap
or alternatively the best way is the 1,2 punch, quicken rod and fire off both in the same round ;)
ya line up your fast bombs to blanket a line of 20ft squares , which is more targeted than a normal cloudkill then have the wiz wall it up nice n tight,
delay action so you and the wiz are at the same initiative so there no chance pesky critter can run out of the death trap before it closes ;)
swift wall means the wiz can throw something else nasty in there as well ;)
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By a twist of fate, I've come upon this very same class combination and locked myself into playing one in Serpent's Skull.
It's alright, I guess. Trapfinding is a nice enough feature to get with a single level dip(my starting level), but everything else doesn't have much in the way of synergy.
The worst thing though, is Will saves. Or rather, the utter lack of them. I took Iron Will as a 1st lvl feat, but beyond that it's an uphill battle. Fighters, for instance, and certainly rangers and barbarians have it easier, far easier. Everyone of them and the rogue too, can easily come upon a headband of wisdom or pump points into wisdom to get higher will saves. Heck the ranger gets the benefit of spellcasting from it, so for him it's even easier. Barbarians have huge saves against spells, fighters against fear(so very very common) and rogues at least get slippery mind, but what does the alchemist get?
Nothing. They kinda have this one weakness and it's going to cost me, let me tell you. Paizo APs are rampant with fear auras, enchantments and hauntings. I'm immune to poison and will have a humongous Reflex save, but only need one difficult to resist mesmer to mess myself up.
By a twist of fate, I've come upon this very same class combination and locked myself into playing one in Serpent's Skull.
It's alright, I guess. Trapfinding is a nice enough feature to get with a single level dip(my starting level), but everything else doesn't have much in the way of synergy.
The worst thing though, is Will saves. Or rather, the utter lack of them. I took Iron Will as a 1st lvl feat, but beyond that it's an uphill battle. Fighters, for instance, and certainly rangers and barbarians have it easier, far easier. Everyone of them and the rogue too, can easily come upon a headband of wisdom or pump points into wisdom to get higher will saves. Heck the ranger gets the benefit of spellcasting from it, so for him it's even easier. Barbarians have huge saves against spells, fighters against fear(so very very common) and rogues at least get slippery mind, but what does the alchemist get?
Nothing. They kinda have this one weakness and it's going to cost me, let me tell you. Paizo APs are rampant with fear auras, enchantments and hauntings. I'm immune to poison and will have a humongous Reflex save, but only need one difficult to resist mesmer to mess myself up.
Boarded in Shackles +1 will
Iron Will +2 willWis 12+ +1 will or more (you want to find the traps, no?)
And yes, you want as high will as possible in SS. Trust me.
By a twist of fate, I've come upon this very same class combination and locked myself into playing one in Serpent's Skull.
It's alright, I guess. Trapfinding is a nice enough feature to get with a single level dip(my starting level), but everything else doesn't have much in the way of synergy.
The worst thing though, is Will saves. Or rather, the utter lack of them. I took Iron Will as a 1st lvl feat, but beyond that it's an uphill battle. Fighters, for instance, and certainly rangers and barbarians have it easier, far easier. Everyone of them and the rogue too, can easily come upon a headband of wisdom or pump points into wisdom to get higher will saves. Heck the ranger gets the benefit of spellcasting from it, so for him it's even easier. Barbarians have huge saves against spells, fighters against fear(so very very common) and rogues at least get slippery mind, but what does the alchemist get?
Nothing. They kinda have this one weakness and it's going to cost me, let me tell you. Paizo APs are rampant with fear auras, enchantments and hauntings. I'm immune to poison and will have a humongous Reflex save, but only need one difficult to resist mesmer to mess myself up.
Master Chysmit Dual Mind is your friend ;) allows you to reroll failed save 1 round later at the cost of a mutate use.
couple that with improved Iron Will which also allows a retry you could potentially get 3 rerolls at a will save.
even with a low base this gives you a solid chance of rolling high at least once.
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and rogues at least get slippery mind, but what does the alchemist get?
Yeah, it's definitely a weakness, this is what I've done:
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The trait is nice, but the rogue character was originally in our RotRL campaign, until death and resurrection brought him to a new campaign for a fresh start. Of course he boarded in Varisia(Magnimar).
Iron Will and Improved Iron Will are a given for any low-Will, low-Wis character. Your idea about rising Wis is sound though. I forgot about Perception being (Wis) so it fits too. Thanks.
Gawd, I wish there was a discovery that increased saves, but other than that mutation in the Master Chymist class, which I'm not headed towards, I'm bummed.
Heroism is a great find, so thanks 0gre. I feel kind of wary about dipping into master chymist, for a variety of reasons, but will consider it. With Heroism+Owl's Wisdom, he's already pretty feasable Will-wise when obviously dangerous places are entered.
Went with dropping str to 15(stat array: 15 14 14 14 12 10), since his to-hit will be massive as it is. Mutagens, spells, Heirloom Weapon, etc.
Thanks for all the help, guise.
The trait is nice, but the rogue character was originally in our RotRL campaign, until death and resurrection brought him to a new campaign for a fresh start. Of course he boarded in Varisia(Magnimar).
Iron Will and Improved Iron Will are a given for any low-Will, low-Wis character. Your idea about rising Wis is sound though. I forgot about Perception being (Wis) so it fits too. Thanks.
Gawd, I wish there was a discovery that increased saves, but other than that mutation in the Master Chymist class, which I'm not headed towards, I'm bummed.
you other option is to invest in specific items and spells to counter specific will effects.
for example being deaf against sound based will effects = immunity
Owl wisdom is a highly overlooked spell as well its a +2 to your will save
Ioun stone of pale green +1 will
Luck Stone +1 will
etc
etc
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The biggest Will save hack I've seen is in Seeker of Secrets. Assuming your GM uses the preset Ioun stone/ Wayfinder resonances you get the Clear Spindle Ioun stone and drop it into a wayfinder to pick up immunity enchantment and compulsion as if you had protection from evil going all the time (Just the immunities though but not the +2 bonus).
Isn't there some bardic ability that allow others in the group to use the bard will save as their own or something similar ?
i.e. alchy's should grab a bard ;) or even bard cohort ;)
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Woah, we had our first session yesterday, which contained enough combat effectiveness by yours truly to make up for the lost Str. Suddenly realised the character to be the only one in the group with both Int and Wis, so ended up scratching my head and playing an unwanted mentor character for the high-charisma, low int, but high combat effectiveness party we had scrounged up together. This I enjoy.
The character is here and it's partly thanks to you that he's doing so well so far. I've certainly made more Heal and Perception checks so far than swung that sword, heh.
A final question, if it is not too much to ask for, does the extract alchemical allocation, which allows you to spit back into the container any a potion or an elixir, work with mutagens? It's as if I'm getting hundreds of rage round a day, but only one chance to use them. I'd like to see if I can rectify it, since this campaign seems to have a lot of walking around.
If the players are attacking a goblin fort and the players decide to barricade themselves in a room those goblins aren't sitting around waiting for them.
Bare minimum the goblins do their level best to block the PCs in the room.
DM: While you're resting and what not, you hear banging outside the door. Also, what sounds like heavy objects being dragged around and goblins giggling.
Player: I go check it out.
DM: As you move toward the door, a puddle of something spreads across the floor under the crack between door and the floor. It smells a lot like alchemist's fire.
:)
Woah, we had our first session yesterday, which contained enough combat effectiveness by yours truly to make up for the lost Str. Suddenly realised the character to be the only one in the group with both Int and Wis, so ended up scratching my head and playing an unwanted mentor character for the high-charisma, low int, but high combat effectiveness party we had scrounged up together. This I enjoy.
The character is here and it's partly thanks to you that he's doing so well so far. I've certainly made more Heal and Perception checks so far than swung that sword, heh.
A final question, if it is not too much to ask for, does the extract alchemical allocation, which allows you to spit back into the container any a potion or an elixir, work with mutagens? It's as if I'm getting hundreds of rage round a day, but only one chance to use them. I'd like to see if I can rectify it, since this campaign seems to have a lot of walking around.
read the mutgaen text again
where does it say once per day ?exactly it just says 1hour to brew, which means as long as the group gives you an hour to brew or you've got 4 hours travelling to work on it you can brew another mutagen on the same day you'ev laready used it
other alternaives later include infuse mytagen (costly) or a level of Master Chymist = mutate 2/day