Those poor human male sailors...Now, if the Bestiary followed the ideas of the Monster Girls Encyclopedia, that would be a different story...Quite right. So, you're working on a Monster Girls Encyclopedia PFRPG book with creature stats, right?
For those who don't know what this is, here's a link: Monster Girls Encyclopedia page 1 (WARNING: NSFW!)
I truly love the Monster Girls Encyclopedia. Truly...
It's not the occasional cleavage, or even Seoni's ridiculous outfit that bugs me. It's the fact that so many iconics seem to be able to carry every possession, even the house they inherited six years ago, strapped to their friggin backs! How many dagumb weapons does one man really need?
Ironically, one of my players loves the Pathfinder art for exactly that reason -- because PCs tend to do exactly what the ironics are pictured doing.
Put me down as another that isn't bothered by fanservice, but would appreciate a greater variety in female character art. It's frustrating how many men and women seem to believe that while men are allowed a wide range of acceptable appearances and body types, women are are far more restricted. Dudes get designed to be primarily badass all the time with little regard for sex appeal. Female characters? Get ready for complaints from people about how she "looks like a man". Or "looks butch" or "like a lesbian"(which begs the question, what precisely is wrong with either of those?).
Why yes I am a bit bitter about backwards ass people making such remarks about women for having something as trivial as short hair. God help you if they actually have visible muscle tone.
And I'm still disappointed that my female Shepard in Mass Effect doesn't even have the option to have scars as horrific as the male Shepard's options. Oh no, never mind that you survived a Thresher Maw massacre! You only get dainty "cute" scars! Freakin' Bioware...
Keep Seoni around, but let her sister in the full body chainmail suit have her time in the sun as well. (there's another reason Seelah and Kyra are among my favorite Iconics)
Also, Artesia is very, very good. Albiet rather dry. And full of group sex.*
*less full of it than people make it out to be though
I agree and I think its the disparity between the sexes in the art that makes the issue more hot than it should be.
@Mothman - as for the cup size, I imagine that is based on bra sales. Which means breast enlargement surgery is a factor in that. I bet if you checked older trends it would only be a B cup before that procedure became popular.
Just saying.
Not to mention that a large percentage of American women are considered over weight in some way which would also factor into breast size. Generally speaking more weight=bigger breasts.
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It's not the occasional cleavage, or even Seoni's ridiculous outfit that bugs me. It's the fact that so many iconics seem to be able to carry every possession, even the house they inherited six years ago, strapped to their friggin backs! How many dagumb weapons does one man really need?
Well, I doubt many of them have permanent homes, and it does accumulate as you go along, so carrying your stuff about makes sense to me. At least until they can get a Bag of Holding.
Ironically, one of my players loves the Pathfinder art for exactly that reason -- because PCs tend to do exactly what the ironics are pictured doing.It's not the occasional cleavage, or even Seoni's ridiculous outfit that bugs me. It's the fact that so many iconics seem to be able to carry every possession, even the house they inherited six years ago, strapped to their friggin backs! How many dagumb weapons does one man really need?
Yeah, exactly :)
Larry Elmore is the man who pretty much formed the image of D&D in the 80ies singlehandedly, during his time as a TSR employee. His art will forever be connected to D&D, I guess. Yes, quite some of his art was (80ies) cheesy, probably more so than todays PF art is. This topic seems to be part of fantasy RPG as long as it exists, I guess.
Aww man, Elmore is the shiz KNIGHT! Every year at DragonCon, he sings that old song, "The Gambler" at karaoke. It's extra cool because with the white beard and all he kinda looks like Kenny Rogers. The man is always covered in hotties too! At least one of my more scantily clad cosplaying friends has modeled for one of his pieces (trying to remember the name of the piece).
I have a number of his prints framed in my home, each one relevant to a memorable moment in my gaming history:
- Dragon Blade: The painting that was the most meaningful to my best-friend from his D&D 'childhood'.
- Dragon Slayers and Proud of It: From the inside cover of the 2E PHB — my first D&D book. That image alone sold me on D&D, it let me know I'd found where I belonged.
- The Power and the Protector: After having not had any D&D for several years, this was the cover of Dragon Magazine that was out when I got back into things. I think this was the issue with the Wayne Reynolds DM screen.
- The Last Dragon Mage: Final cover of Dragon Magazine under Paizo. End of an era but the beginning of the current 'golden age' we now find ourselves in. :)
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Aw man, this topic again?Preach it Lilith!
Has any called dibs on being insufferably self-righteous yet? If not - DIBS!!!
You're calling dibs on this? When did we start calling dibs on things that are basic features of our personality?
Hey has anyone called dibs on being a sarcastic white male yet? if not- DIBS
It's not the occasional cleavage, or even Seoni's ridiculous outfit that bugs me. It's the fact that so many iconics seem to be able to carry every possession, even the house they inherited six years ago, strapped to their friggin backs! How many dagumb weapons does one man really need?
Yup. One of the things I hate the most about 3.5, as opposed to 3.0, is that the handling of DR necessitates the "golf bag" mentality. I don't want to have to lug around tons of weapons just in case I find a monster who can only be harmed by a particular kind. In fact, when I first read about the major changes in 3.5 from 3.0, and I read about DR, I literally, physically felt nauseous. I'm reminded of a certain parody of Conan, in which the Conan-based character says "[I] brought you back here so you could take care of my weapons! Hand me my Hackenstabber #4 iron -- and hurry!"
But to get back on topic...
The man is the beef/cheese cake king, G-Strings, thigh highs, boobs. I love Elmore's work but it had its time and place (80/90's and on the side of a shagging wagon).
Yeah, seriously, someone on these boards once posted a link to a site that listed the 10 hottest babes in D&D. I strongly disagreed with 9 out of 10 of those choices. I started to work on my own list, but stopped when I realized that the vast majority of my "Top 10" list would have been drawn by Larry Elmore. Seriously.
Thats the Companion Set Cover, right? Thats awesome.
I have a number of his prints framed in my home, each one relevant to a memorable moment in my gaming history:
- Dragon Blade: The painting that was the most meaningful to my best-friend from his D&D 'childhood'.
I put it this way: The only chance you have is to kill a dragon that young, otherwise, it kills you.
Dragon Slayers and Proud of It: From the inside cover of the 2E PHB — my first D&D book. That image alone sold me on D&D, it let me know I'd found where I belonged.
Hmm, can´t recall that one - and I´m too lazy digging through the dragons right now
The Power and the Protector: After having not had any D&D for several years, this was the cover of Dragon Magazine that was out when I got back into things. I think this was the issue with the Wayne Reynolds DM screen.
The Last Dragon Mage: Final cover of Dragon Magazine under Paizo. End of an era but the beginning of the current 'golden age' we now find ourselves in. :)
I don´t really recall that one, either.
To the OP:
Get over it.
Someone needs to make another "How do we get more women into gaming???" thread so it can be bumped to appear side by side with this thread, and I can laugh and laugh and laugh.
To me this is somewhat straight forward, fantasy RPG's drew a lot of inspiration from fanatasy pulp novels from 1930 - 1975, and in those novels cheescake was the rule.
So of course, no matter evolved the game gets, there is always going to be a throwback to that image of the chainmail bikini.
I do think from a practical point chainmail bikini's are stupid, I would rather have my heroine wearing something tight and stylish and and easy to move in, and have a ring of warmth and a ring of protection +15 to explain anyway the practical defencies.
Ah, yes: this touchy little issue.
On the one hand, I can (to some degree, at least) see where she's coming from. On the other...yeah, I can't help but wonder if she's looking for an excuse to get offended. While I won't deny that there may be underlying social issues here, cheesecake is not a social issue in its own right.
...well, selling moderate amounts of sex to the target audience (single males, and yes I've been to GenCon once).
Well. That's out of date.
The various local groups I've been with are usually half women, or the majority are women. The ones I've seen advertised in Meetups have a mixture.
Online, I find it similar. While some of it is a man trying to play a woman, the majority of the time this isn't the case.
I do have access to registration information.
I've found that women gamers tend to avoid areas where they feel they aren't welcome, or for instance, where it can appear the main purpose of the store, event, or product is to stare at breasts. Note, I said main purpose.
However, many women like RPGs and are involved with them. And that number is growing.
That's my sole contribution to this topic. The market isn't changing: it already has and will continue to do so. In sum, we get to figure out how to address that.
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Someone needs to make another "How do we get more women into gaming???" thread so it can be bumped to appear side by side with this thread, and I can laugh and laugh and laugh.I dont think cheesecake has anything to do with that. I dont think It even bothers most women.
As a counter-point to that, my girlfriend was interested in playing a rogue who was more tricksy and a little less combat-oriented.
I suggested that she take a look at two 3rd party publisher products:
The Genius Guide to the Shadow Assassin
and
The Genius Guide to the Time Thief
She was interested in both classes as I described them but she looked first at the Time Thief and immediately rejected them both because of the art.
So, some women are actively put off by too much cleavagetastic art.
That said: I don't think the OP was interested in patronising other people by talking about what they might or might not be comfortable with, He was talking about his own desire for greater verisimilitude in Pathfinder art.
Although there have been a great many good posts on this thread it is a shame that some people have twisted the OP's words to create conflict and/or negative insinuations.
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In my gaming group it IS the women that play the scantily clad and questionable sexuality characters. The girls play the most womanising male character i have seen too, the female president of our gaming club plays a male sorcerer we refer to as the "man-slut". Most women get jokes and advetising gimmicks, but some of ours will seriously hurt you if you imply that a bikini is required atire for a female PC.
Give them the choice with out harrassment though and many might take it on their own......
My prediction for this thread is that the usual suspects will turn up yell at each other, go round in circles, fail to reach any middle ground, resort to generalising and personal insults, then Lilith or Ross will lock the thread.
Its taken a lot longer than I thought it would, I wonder if it is taking so long to devolve into a flaming quagmire because its in a less frequented part of the boards.
Although it looks like the trolling has just begun...
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God I miss Elmore's works.
I hope you are being facetious.... The man is the beef/cheese cake king, G-Strings, thigh highs, boobs. I love Elmore's work but it had its time and place (80/90's and on the side of a shagging wagon).
His dragons were the best, and I tear up every time I see the picture of Laurana standing over Sturm.
No I'm not being facetious. The cheese/beefcake thing doesn't bother me that much. I just really prefer the old school art over this.
Don't get me wrong, WAR is an amazing talent, but his style doesn't appeal to me. But I don't really buy Paizo products for the art. I buy, when I can afford it that is, for the awesome content.
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Now for the cheescake issue, both my wife and I play female characters in our current campaign. (Yes I'm one of those guys, lol)
My Sorceress adventures in a blouse, long skirt split to allow movement, and a vest.
Solnes' Druid of the same name adventures in a short cloak with hood, leather corset thigh high boots and a green linen mini skirt, "cut as to show the bottom curve of her perfect elven bottom". Her words not mine.
So I guess everyone has their own idea of what constitutes too much skin in their fantasy.
I removed some posts and the replies to them. Let's try not to guess & judge others' motives.
[EDIT]
To clarify: All the stuff I said refers to that gomakemeasandwich blog, not the thread starter. I forgot that this thread didn't start discussing that blog.
[/EDIT]
To start this off with a nice, sexist insult (to get the blood really boiling):
I want more pictures of naked chicks with humongous breasts bearing trays with refreshments, especially sandwiches, in Pathfinder. And put some feather dusters into their G-string so they fulfil all the roles God wants women to fulfil! Or something!
Ha!
Seriously: Who can't see that? Calistrian priestesses would totally do that! When you're staring at their boobs, you don't see them put poison onto the sandwiches, or draw a dagger to sneak attack the heck out of you!
Touche!On a serious note - I like the art. I can appreciate that some are bothered by it, but the crusades against it (such as the blog posted by the OP) bother me.
Bah, don't sweat it. She's far too out there to be taken seriously.
While I agree that using nothing but cheesecake for female characters is wrong, she seems to crusade for eliminating such pictures altogether. "Thou shalt not have pictures of women who are sexy and show it!"
She's to a reasonable person who wants women to be more then eye-candy what PETA is to someone who just doesn't like to eat meat and doesn't want senseless cruelty to animals.
As others have said: She doesn't really want to improve things, she just wants something to complain about.
I'd say that most people will figure that out fast enough and then either tune her out or use her as a source of amusement.
Plus, I can't take anyone seriously who wants her gender to be considered smart and not just sex objects, but then does a horrible job championing her sex by being stupid to realise that "fail" is a verb, not a noun. Pathfinder can't be full of "gender fail", because there is no such thing as gender fail. It's "failure" if you want to use a noun.
Repeat after me kids: "She fails. She's a failure." :D
(Yes, that "repeat after me kids" is aimed at her "Sing it with me kids! One of these things is not like the other, one of these things just doesn't belong..." where she accuses Paizo of being racist because one of their white fans dares to cosplay as Seoni. Talk about biting irony.)
To Paizo, I can only say: Keep up the good work! The iconics and other characters run the gamut from brains to breasts, which is as it should be. There is good balance here, with characters that flaunt their charms (and use them as weapons) but also with characters nobody could take exception too. And both should be there, since both are in demand, and both are extant in the real world.
Plus, no sensible person could accuse you of racism, sexism, or any other -ism. You don't bash non-white people, you don't bash homosexuals, you don't bash anybody.
From me, you gain a resounding BRAVO!
I removed some posts and the replies to them. Let's try not to guess & judge others' motives.
Awh, c'mon Ross. Women in burqa showing leg is the hawtness. ;-)
Actually, point of order, but "fail" in modern slang is indeed a noun. As in the phrase "This argument is made of fail."
There's also a shade of meaning between "fail" as a noun and "failure" as a noun, as "fail" is a particularly spectacular and egregious example of failure, or to put it another way: fail > failure
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Someone needs to make another "How do we get more women into gaming???" thread so it can be bumped to appear side by side with this thread, and I can laugh and laugh and laugh.I dont think cheesecake has anything to do with that. I dont think It even bothers most women.As a counter-point to that, my girlfriend was interested in playing a rogue who was more tricksy and a little less combat-oriented.
I suggested that she take a look at two 3rd party publisher products:
The Genius Guide to the Shadow Assassin
and
The Genius Guide to the Time ThiefShe was interested in both classes as I described them but she looked first at the Time Thief and immediately rejected them both because of the art.
<snip>
Which is ironic in a way, since the lady who posed for that picture *is* a gamer IRL :-)
Actually, point of order, but "fail" in modern slang is indeed a noun. As in the phrase "This argument is made of fail."
There's also a shade of meaning between "fail" as a noun and "failure" as a noun, as "fail" is a particularly spectacular and egregious example of failure, or to put it another way: fail > failure
Just because something is slang doesn't make it good grammar, or something that's otherwise excusable in terms of what constitutes proper speech.
I personally can't stand it that what we consider "correct" English is defined by what's in the various dictionaries, which are themselves easily swayed by what's "kewl" among people. Having "ginormous" appear in the dictionary makes me groan and shake my head.
I know language evolves over time, and from practical use, but there's a difference between the evolution of language and poor language.
It makes we wish we had a regulatory body for what is and is not proper English, the same way other Romance languages do.
We do have regulatory bodies in the form of the editors of the various dictionaries.
I have here my family's old 1920s edition of Webster's Unabridged. It has at the beginning a supplementary dictionary of new words considered for inclusion in the main dictionary, including the word "television" and the related word "televised." It also includes "Superman" with reference to Nietsche for the original word and G.B. Shaw for using the translation of the German.
Also, it should be pointed out, in matters of grammar, it does not matter whether modern diction is used, or slang, archaisms, and/or colloquialisms. So long as all the parts of speech are in the proper place, the grammar is correct. "W00t! I haz found epic fail!" is the same grammar as Huzzah! I hath witnessed a most excellent misadventure! One is slang, the other is archaic, but the grammatical construction of both is the same.
I know what you meant, but knowing what someone means is the whole point of the exercise, that being communication.
There's regular plain speech, academic diction, medical speech, legalese, professional jargon from every other trade, slang from multiple subcultures, colloquialisms from various regions, archaisms, poetic diction and on and on.
Calling something "incorrect usage" is not incorrect when it's layering a new meaning to an existing word.
Dictionaries are generally edited to report popular usage. The editors do research to find the evolution of a word and the history of its etymology. Sometimes a new thing needs to be named. Sometimes an old name is forgotten so a new term is invented. Sometimes words become so popular so quickly that they're catapulted into the dictionary--"bling" is a good example. Sometimes words languish in obscurity for a long while. Sometimes they fall out of popular usage and become obscure slang of a certain time and place. It varies.
"Improper usage" is best reserved for things such as calling diction grammar.
Plus, I can't take anyone seriously who wants her gender to be considered smart and not just sex objects, but then does a horrible job championing her sex by being stupid to realise that "fail" is a verb, not a noun. Pathfinder can't be full of "gender fail", because there is no such thing as gender fail. It's "failure" if you want to use a noun.Repeat after me kids: "She fails. She's...
english is a living language without a single governing body which decrees what is 'proper english.' Common usage shapes, and dialects shape the larger language.
When the blogger says that paizo are 'full of gender fail' it is perfectly acceptable, because she is using a term from net dialect, which is understood by digital natives (I.E. the people most likely to be reading her blog.)
Fail is very likely to start making its way into the dictionaries as a noun soon, as the term is starting to cross over into meat space. If you hadn't been born 100 years ago, you'd get this ;)
English is in itself a fictitious entity, as there is not one English. American English and British English are the most well known parts, but even within these parts are huge differences - otherwise, there would be no English known as Queen´s or Oxford English, for example. This shows that there can be no single governing body for the English (or any other) language. In the end, the users define the language, not some governing body (probably consisting of linguistic scientists). Dictionaries usually document the current use, they don´t regulate a living language (other than for official uses). A language is used correctly if the user is understood by his audience.
Stefan
English is in itself a fictitious entity, as there is not one English. American English and British English are the most well known parts, but even within these parts are huge differences - otherwise, there would be no English known as Queen´s or Oxford English, for example. This shows that there can be no single governing body for the English (or any other) language. In the end, the users define the language, not some governing body (probably consisting of linguistic scientists). Dictionaries usually document the current use, they don´t regulate a living language (other than for official uses). A language is used correctly if the user is understood by his audience.
Stefan
When I was trying to learn ancient Greek, my lecturer used to say "You are lucky you aren't learning a living language, living languages morph and evolve they borrow words, pilfer rules and make things up as they go along. Ancient Greek doesn't do any of this any-more because its dead and any language that doesn't change is dead".
Plus, I can't take anyone seriously who wants her gender to be considered smart and not just sex objects, but then does a horrible job championing her sex by being stupid to realise that "fail" is a verb, not a noun. Pathfinder can't be full of "gender fail", because there is no such thing as gender fail. It's "failure" if you want to use a noun.
Repeat after me kids: "She fails. She's a failure." :D
I contend that ANY English word can be a noun, because every word has a meaning that you won't find in the dictionary: a reference to the word itself. The sentence...
Fail is not a noun.
...disproves itself. What's the subject of that sentence?
The iconics and other characters run the gamut from brains to breasts, which is as it should be.
Run the gamut from brains to breasts?!? Who the heck says that the two are mutually exclusive, let alone that they're opposite extremes?!? I know plenty of women with ample supply of both. I know that you deliberately worded your post to sound controversial as a joke, but I think that's going too far.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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We made it to page 5 already?
Did we succeed in driving out sexism in rpg's yet? Did we finally answer the riddle of whether social responsibility to gender equality should drive art more than how well it sells a product?
I'm just going to assume we did.
Hooray internet! Another victory for you!
We made it to page 5 already?
Did we succeed in driving out sexism in rpg's yet? Did we finally answer the riddle of whether social responsibility to gender equality should drive art more than how well it sells a product?
I'm just going to assume we did.
Hooray internet! Another victory for you!
No, it's just become a discussion on what is and isn't proper English, that's all...
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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No, it's just become a discussion on what is and isn't proper English, that's all...We made it to page 5 already?
Did we succeed in driving out sexism in rpg's yet? Did we finally answer the riddle of whether social responsibility to gender equality should drive art more than how well it sells a product?
I'm just going to assume we did.
Hooray internet! Another victory for you!
That ain't right.
Did we succeed in driving out sexism in rpg's yet? Did we finally answer the riddle of whether social responsibility to gender equality should drive art more than how well it sells a product?
What, you think that we hope to ACCOMPLISH something by writing in threads like this one?!?
Actually, point of order, but "fail" in modern slang is indeed a noun. As in the phrase "This argument is made of fail."
There's also a shade of meaning between "fail" as a noun and "failure" as a noun, as "fail" is a particularly spectacular and egregious example of failure, or to put it another way: fail > failure
Everyone's failing. Doesn't make it right.
And I'm not buying the fail = failure² argument, either. When "epic fail" is used to describe the most trivial crap, a regular fail is even less significant.
In fact, I'd say that "failure" has the stronger meaning, if only because this "epic fail" nonsense has completely cheapened fail, and, indeed, epic.
"ROFLCOPTER, THIS GUY ASKED FOR A BIG MAC IN BURGER KING! EPIC FAIL!"
It's a failure, but not that big. Surely far from epic. A guy sleeping on the job and causing the death of hundreds I might see as an epic failure, but not a guy who doesn't care enough about different fast food chains to remember the name of the hamburger he intents to order.