Cheesecake factor- too much?


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I am not going to discuss things with people who are engaging in personal attacks. Most people here have been civil and friendly.


Mikaze wrote:

I actually rather like "Eyepatch Lady" in the Dragon Warrior art.

But then I like Cultists of Kalavei too.

It'd be nice to have both without one or the other constantly being knocked.

Yeah, 'eyepatch lady' is nice. I'm not sure if there are other pics of her in the book. I pulled that one from an image search.


Dark_Mistress wrote:


I've heard of it. I was merely saying sex in RPG has nothing to do with cheesecake art is all. So wasn't sure why you brought it up is all.

Heh, just a joking reference to a game that really went overboard in a demented attempt to make things 'sexy.' Have you seen the cover? Yuck. No, not cheesecake- unless it's cheesecake that's been sitting in a warm dumpster for a week and is now full of squirming maggots.

The 'game' is horrifying in other ways, as well. The charts, the charts! FATAL isn't to be taken seriously, ever. It might create a portal to a dimension of pure evil, pure chaos, if ever anyone were to take it too seriously...or worse...play it. Ewwwww...


ewan cummins wrote:
It might create a portal to a dimension of pure evil, pure chaos, if ever anyone were to take it too seriously...or worse...play it. Ewwwww...

At least we agree on something! ;)


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Sebastian wrote:

This is a Very Serious Topic. It deserves nothing less than 10 pages of discussion.

Who wants to race to 10?

First! :p

Well, at least before Sebastian. ;)


hunter1828 wrote:
ewan cummins wrote:
It might create a portal to a dimension of pure evil, pure chaos, if ever anyone were to take it too seriously...or worse...play it. Ewwwww...
At least we agree on something! ;)

I read the RPG.NET review and looked at an image of the cover art. To be perfectly honest, I couldn't bring myself to go further than that. That's probably why I'm still more or less sane. The soul-blasting horror of 'the game' has destroyed others who were less cautious.


ewan cummins wrote:
hunter1828 wrote:
ewan cummins wrote:
It might create a portal to a dimension of pure evil, pure chaos, if ever anyone were to take it too seriously...or worse...play it. Ewwwww...
At least we agree on something! ;)
I read the RPG.NET review and looked at an image of the cover art. To be perfectly honest, I couldn't bring myself to go further than that. That's probably why I'm still more or less sane. The soul-blasting horror of 'the game' has destroyed others who were less cautious.

Having seen the contents inside, I will say this: the amount of work they put into that game is staggering. It is unbelievable the amount of time alone they spent in the numerous charts & tables present there. In its entirety, the whole content is just shy of a thousand pages.

Again, it's practically the De Sade of RPG games. As twisted as it sounds, some of the contents are so over the top absurd that I simply laugh at it because it's insane. But that's me.

Anywhoo...


I would never insult the Marquis by comparing him to FATAL.

Sovereign Court

Ewan,

Aside from the fact that you seem to talk even more than me or my most verbose players, I think the issue of cheesecake/non cheesecake is not necessarily the best.

So hey, you want the pics to be more gritty. And I like them as they are.

So, given all this, have you given a look at the latest "Tomb Raider" video game preview ? (sorry no link-saw them in mag).

Lara Croft is still hot, but on the pictures, she is obviously wounded and bleeding. So that's gritty ... but on the other hand, that's still LAra Croft, and I can't think of any better word for her than "cheesecake".

To me, the two need not be exclusive.

So, where are you on this ?


Stereofm wrote:

Ewan,

Aside from the fact that you seem to talk even more than me or my most verbose players, I think the issue of cheesecake/non cheesecake is not necessarily the best.

So hey, you want the pics to be more gritty. And I like them as they are.

So, given all this, have you given a look at the latest "Tomb Raider" video game preview ? (sorry no link-saw them in mag).

Lara Croft is still hot, but on the pictures, she is obviously wounded and bleeding. So that's gritty ... but on the other hand, that's still LAra Croft, and I can't think of any better word for her than "cheesecake".

To me, the two need not be exclusive.

So, where are you on this ?

I'd have to see the preview first. If you have read my posts, you know that I'm not against any and all illustrations of 'sexy women.' I'm just put off by the sheer amount of cheesecake in certain RPG product lines. Cheesecake 'armor' irks me, as well. Some posters here (not you) have chosen to ignore my actual positions and attack a position that I have never taken.

It's interesting to me that you have brought up a video game. Video games have had little or no impact on my tabletop gaming experience. About the only game that ever held my attention for very long was Civilization, and I eventually got burned out on that one. I was never a big arcade fan; as a kid I preferred to save my money for books, .22 LR, fireworks, etc.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Urizen wrote:
Lyingbastard wrote:

I just find the logic amusing.

After all, it's perfectly acceptable in game to summon demons, fist-fight werewolves, slay undead tyrants, and raid the lairs of dragons. But having a female character showing some skin while doing so is obviously unrealistic...

I love the irony of our country:

Janet Jackson nipple slip during Super Bowl Half Time: BAD!

Rape and murder being acted out on prime time network television followed by the display of said carnage on a typical crime drama procedural: GOOD!

We're long overdue for an enema. ;-)

I always thought the issue was a) It wasn't expected (I watch a football game for sports, and usually change the channel during the halftime show) and b) the 'slip' later turned out to be manufactured and planned.


Matthew Morris wrote:
Urizen wrote:
Lyingbastard wrote:

I just find the logic amusing.

After all, it's perfectly acceptable in game to summon demons, fist-fight werewolves, slay undead tyrants, and raid the lairs of dragons. But having a female character showing some skin while doing so is obviously unrealistic...

I love the irony of our country:

Janet Jackson nipple slip during Super Bowl Half Time: BAD!

Rape and murder being acted out on prime time network television followed by the display of said carnage on a typical crime drama procedural: GOOD!

We're long overdue for an enema. ;-)

I always thought the issue was a) It wasn't expected (I watch a football game for sports, and usually change the channel during the halftime show) and b) the 'slip' later turned out to be manufactured and planned.

Planned or accident; either way. I can't see that being worse compared to a rape/murder reenactment on television. One may argue that they weren't prepared / intending to see nipple on a sports program, and to them I'd ask, but were you planning on watching a rape/murder reenactment and explain why the latter is okay, but the former is not.

To each their own, I suppose. I'll take nipple. =)

Contributor

Urizen wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:
Urizen wrote:
Lyingbastard wrote:

I just find the logic amusing.

After all, it's perfectly acceptable in game to summon demons, fist-fight werewolves, slay undead tyrants, and raid the lairs of dragons. But having a female character showing some skin while doing so is obviously unrealistic...

I love the irony of our country:

Janet Jackson nipple slip during Super Bowl Half Time: BAD!

Rape and murder being acted out on prime time network television followed by the display of said carnage on a typical crime drama procedural: GOOD!

We're long overdue for an enema. ;-)

I always thought the issue was a) It wasn't expected (I watch a football game for sports, and usually change the channel during the halftime show) and b) the 'slip' later turned out to be manufactured and planned.

Planned or accident; either way. I can't see that being worse compared to a rape/murder reenactment on television. One may argue that they weren't prepared / intending to see nipple on a sports program, and to them I'd ask, but were you planning on watching a rape/murder reenactment and explain why the latter is okay, but the former is not.

To each their own, I suppose. I'll take nipple. =)

We're bizarrely ritualized in what is considered "risque." Seeing multiple breasts jiggled up and down in formation is considered standard in cheerleading. Seeing breasts naked except for a pasty covering up the nipple? Not legally "indecent exposure." Having the pasty replaced with a piercing and body jewelry? Eek! A nipple! Children as young three days old might see it and think...um.... Lunch?

Then again, there are parts of the world where the taboo is seeing bare ankles. Whatever....


Stebehil wrote:
Lyingbastard wrote:
And yes, Note to artists: more side boob.
I can actually live without art depicting silicone "enhanced" females.

Wait, women with real boobs don't have side boob? Since when?


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens Subscriber
Dire Mongoose wrote:
Stebehil wrote:
Lyingbastard wrote:
And yes, Note to artists: more side boob.
I can actually live without art depicting silicone "enhanced" females.
Wait, women with real boobs don't have side boob? Since when?

I take the bait. If I look at the pics of Seoni or that Cultist, these girls sure have a D cup at least, and their clothes show enough of it (the side boob) to see that there is nothing in the pic to support them (no bra or whatever). Now, D (or bigger) cups that just stand firm on their own without any visible support are most probably "enhanced", or they just defy gravity for whatever reason (yeah, I know Seoni is a sorceress - Seoni´s Invisible Bra or what?). It has more to do with cup size than side boob, really. Perhaps surprising, D or bigger is not natural for most women...

Contributor

Stebehil wrote:
Dire Mongoose wrote:
Stebehil wrote:
Lyingbastard wrote:
And yes, Note to artists: more side boob.
I can actually live without art depicting silicone "enhanced" females.
Wait, women with real boobs don't have side boob? Since when?
I take the bait. If I look at the pics of Seoni or that Cultist, these girls sure have a D cup at least, and their clothes show enough of it (the side boob) to see that there is nothing in the pic to support them (no bra or whatever). Now, D (or bigger) cups that just stand firm on their own without any visible support are most probably "enhanced", or they just defy gravity for whatever reason (yeah, I know Seoni is a sorceress - Seoni´s Invisible Bra or what?). It has more to do with cup size than side boob, really. Perhaps surprising, D or bigger is not natural for most women...

Maybe it's a side benefit of the Mage Armor spell. It gives you an invisible corset and bustierre.

This is my explanation for why you never see any underwire support in Jean Grey either. You think the world's most powerful telekinetic isn't going to use it to go braless?


Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
This is my explanation for why you never see any underwire support in Jean Grey either. You think the world's most powerful telekinetic isn't going to use it to go braless?

FTW! :D


Let's face it, Seoni is an Iconic so is --Cough, cough--larger than life. The artwork displays her high charisma as a sorcerer.

So Seoni shops at Victoria's Secret...It's not a billion dollar company for nothing.

As for those who say a chainmail bikini is not armor, I beg to differ.
It should add a Psychological bonus to armor against males = to the charisma bonus of the wearer ;)

As far as males go, Conan would not be Conan if the artwork displayed him in full plate mail all the time.

Heroic fantasy and sword and sorcery have always had nude and semi-nude characters in the artwork going back to the tales of the ancient greek and roman heroes.
Why change the tradition now?

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
Then again, there are parts of the world where the taboo is seeing bare ankles. Whatever....

<Wash> Some people juggle geese...</Wash>

Sovereign Court

Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:


This is my explanation for why you never see any underwire support in Jean Grey either. You think the world's most powerful telekinetic isn't going to use it to go braless?

LOL :)

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
This is my explanation for why you never see any underwire support in Jean Grey either. You think the world's most powerful telekinetic isn't going to use it to go braless?

Your quote is so ... uplifting!


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
This is my explanation for why you never see any underwire support in Jean Grey either. You think the world's most powerful telekinetic isn't going to use it to go braless?

Best idea to come out of this thread yet.


ewan cummins wrote:


I am not going to discuss things with people who are engaging in personal attacks. Most people here have been civil and friendly.

It's a simple matter really. All of us - myself included - just need to remember to always follow Wheaton's Law.


hunter1828 wrote:
ewan cummins wrote:


I am not going to discuss things with people who are engaging in personal attacks. Most people here have been civil and friendly.
It's a simple matter really. All of us - myself included - just need to remember to always follow Wheaton's Law.

That's a good rule, agreed.

Any love for the girl on the cover of Dragon # 126? I'd say that she is good looking, but not sexualized and not wearing skimpy clothing.

Shadow Lodge

Alzrius wrote:
Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
This is my explanation for why you never see any underwire support in Jean Grey either. You think the world's most powerful telekinetic isn't going to use it to go braless?
Best idea to come out of this thread yet.

Seoni's favorite spell is Bigby's Uplifting Grope. It's a cantrip that allows her to defy gravity.


Kthulhu wrote:
Alzrius wrote:
Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
This is my explanation for why you never see any underwire support in Jean Grey either. You think the world's most powerful telekinetic isn't going to use it to go braless?
Best idea to come out of this thread yet.
Seoni's favorite spell is Bigby's Uplifting Grope. It's a cantrip that allows her to defy gravity.

Every time I try to cast that spell on a girl, everyone gets mad at me. Maybe it's because I'm using Freehold's Uplifting Grope, not Bigby's. I wonder how his spell differs from my own?


Interesting thread, I'll have to read it more thoroughly later. One thing I'll say though is I'm just glad that Paizo's artists don't got for all the funky piercings and all like 3 and 3.5's artists did.

I've seen a couple of references to the old AD&D "rogue" character with the exposed chest in the middle of her chainmail. If that's who I'm thinking it is, she only ware that armor one time and it had a purpose. She was some kind of created superhuman and the armor was put on her before she was to be scrificed by having her heart cut out on an altar. There was a reason for her to be wearing said armor but I don't remember why.

Silver Crusade

Thane36425 wrote:

Interesting thread, I'll have to read it more thoroughly later. One thing I'll say though is I'm just glad that Paizo's artists don't got for all the funky piercings and all like 3 and 3.5's artists did.

I wish some did. Figured the witch would be rocking a pierced brow at least.

What can I say, I like variety.

I miss Kylie from Planescape.

The Exchange

Freehold DM wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:
Alzrius wrote:
Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
This is my explanation for why you never see any underwire support in Jean Grey either. You think the world's most powerful telekinetic isn't going to use it to go braless?
Best idea to come out of this thread yet.
Seoni's favorite spell is Bigby's Uplifting Grope. It's a cantrip that allows her to defy gravity.
Every time I try to cast that spell on a girl, everyone gets mad at me. Maybe it's because I'm using Freehold's Uplifting Grope, not Bigby's. I wonder how his spell differs from my own?

His is a force effect shaped like a hand. Yours.... is just a hand.


Dear gawd, I just lol'ed myself.


Thane36425 wrote:

Interesting thread, I'll have to read it more thoroughly later. One thing I'll say though is I'm just glad that Paizo's artists don't got for all the funky piercings and all like 3 and 3.5's artists did.

I've seen a couple of references to the old AD&D "rogue" character with the exposed chest in the middle of her chainmail. If that's who I'm thinking it is, she only ware that armor one time and it had a purpose. She was some kind of created superhuman and the armor was put on her before she was to be scrificed by having her heart cut out on an altar. There was a reason for her to be wearing said armor but I don't remember why.

Alias.

Yeah, yeah, I know the funny explanation that the author gave. TVTropes call that 'lampshading.

The real reason she's in a mail-kini is because Clyde Caldwell likes to paint pictures of sexy pin up girls with swords and 80s hair -dos.


Hurray for Clyde Caldwell!

So, back to the important part - how to convince Paizo to include more cheesecake.


Lyingbastard wrote:

Hurray for Clyde Caldwell!

So, back to the important part - how to convince Paizo to include more cheesecake.

That'd be a great way to convince many of us to buy fewer of their products, I suspect.

:)

It'd be cool to see some Caldwell stuff in Paizo products at some point.

I'd like to see these artists used:

Erol Otus- bizarre monsters, caves, very old school feel

David Trampier- never gonna happen, sad to say :( Wormy!

Jim Holloway- nice detail, medieval looking armor and gear, everyman heroes, good sense of humor, does dwarves really well, action in many pics/not just standing around looking cool

Jim Roslof- illustrated some great monsters, pen and ink goodness

Rebecca Guay- watercolors, mythological themes, can draw beautiful women without cheesecake/softcore

Dark Archive

I would love some Lois Royo myself, but I imagine he would cost way way to much. Not to mention I think most of his art would be more than Paizo would want to push things. But he is one of my favorite artist. :)


One person is not "many".

I'd like to see Ramon Perez - I always thought that his work was among the best artwork in the RIFTS books. Him and Kevin Long were basically responsible for the way RIFTS looks to me.

And of course, Talon Dunning - though we're lucky enough to have some of his work in the upcoming Tome of Monsters.

Contributor

Mikaze wrote:
Thane36425 wrote:

Interesting thread, I'll have to read it more thoroughly later. One thing I'll say though is I'm just glad that Paizo's artists don't got for all the funky piercings and all like 3 and 3.5's artists did.

I wish some did. Figured the witch would be rocking a pierced brow at least.

What can I say, I like variety.

I miss Kylie from Planescape.

Unfortunately, 3.0 had the BoVD or as I've referred to it as "The Book of Vile Nipple Rings" where you could count how "eeevil" the demon lords were by counting their visible piercings.

They were also sporting pretty darn banal body jewelry. When Janet "Miss Jackson if you're nasty" Jackson has more intriguing taste in body jewelry than the assembled fiends of Hell, there's something wrong with the picture.


Lyingbastard wrote:

One person is not "many".

I'd like to see Ramon Perez - I always thought that his work was among the best artwork in the RIFTS books. Him and Kevin Long were basically responsible for the way RIFTS looks to me.

And of course, Talon Dunning - though we're lucky enough to have some of his work in the upcoming Tome of Monsters.

True, you are just one guy, but I'm sure a few others agree with you, LB. Don't despair, you are not alone.


Dark_Mistress wrote:
I would love some Lois Royo myself, but I imagine he would cost way way to much. Not to mention I think most of his art would be more than Paizo would want to push things. But he is one of my favorite artist. :)

Royo? I only know him vaguely. Looking up his stuff...

Yeah, definitely not my cup of tea. ;()


Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:


Unfortunately, 3.0 had the BoVD or as I've referred to it as "The Book of Vile Nipple Rings" where you could count how "eeevil" the demon lords were by counting their visible piercings.

They were also sporting pretty darn banal body jewelry. When Janet "Miss Jackson if you're nasty" Jackson has more intriguing taste in body jewelry than the assembled fiends of Hell, there's something wrong with the picture.

LOL!

Vile nipple rings...that's going to stick in my head.


F. Wesley Schneider wrote:
Sebastian wrote:

This is a Very Serious Topic. It deserves nothing less than 10 pages of discussion.

Who wants to race to 10?

Yawn.

Why, you can't even yawn in this thread without your lascivious drool running in great rivers out of your mouth!

The Exchange

Thane36425 wrote:

Interesting thread, I'll have to read it more thoroughly later. One thing I'll say though is I'm just glad that Paizo's artists don't got for all the funky piercings and all like 3 and 3.5's artists did.

I've seen a couple of references to the old AD&D "rogue" character with the exposed chest in the middle of her chainmail. If that's who I'm thinking it is, she only ware that armor one time and it had a purpose. She was some kind of created superhuman and the armor was put on her before she was to be scrificed by having her heart cut out on an altar. There was a reason for her to be wearing said armor but I don't remember why.

I think you are referencing the Curse of the Azure Bonds novel/mod.


Andrew R wrote:
I think you are referencing the Curse of the Azure Bonds novel/mod.

That's right. Ewan got the name, which I remembered shortly after posting. Funny that I could remember her companion's name but not hers. She was the main character in the novel but had only a passing role in the computer game.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Lyingbastard wrote:

One person is not "many".

I'd like to see Ramon Perez - I always thought that his work was among the best artwork in the RIFTS books. Him and Kevin Long were basically responsible for the way RIFTS looks to me.

And of course, Talon Dunning - though we're lucky enough to have some of his work in the upcoming Tome of Monsters.

I agree with the sentiment that one person isn't many...in the original context of it. That is, there's really only been a half-dozen or so people in this entire thread who are down on cheesecake as a whole (with one very vociferous person championing that view). Most everybody else seems quite happy with it.

And also, Talon Dunning's artwork is great; more of it would be most welcome.


Lyingbastard wrote:

And of course, Talon Dunning - though we're lucky enough to have some of his work in the upcoming Tome of Monsters.

Yes, but his contributions are very "un-cheesecake" trolls and clockwork familiars. :D


Alzrius wrote:
Most everybody else seems quite happy with it.

Or at least unconcerned by it.

I think one thing about me that has been misinterpreted by others in this thread (not you) as I defended sexy art and the desire of people to view sexy art is that just because I like sexy art and I don't mind seeing it in RPG books doesn't mean that it is ALL I want in RPG art. If that were the case, I certainly wouldn't have had Talon Dunning do art of ugly trolls and clockwork familiars for 4WFG's upcoming Tome of Monsters. I'd have had him do art of sexy trolls (ow. I just made my eyes bleed...)


Lyingbastard wrote:


I'd like to see Ramon Perez - I always thought that his work was among the best artwork in the RIFTS books. Him and Kevin Long were basically responsible for the way RIFTS looks to me.

You mean this Ramon Perez?

Dark Archive

I never really thought about the "cheesecake" factor in Pathfinder. All in all it doesn't seem that bad, at least to me. Mostly cause I know it's not real, it a fantasy, pretend, & an imagining. The artist probably sits down and draws what he would like to see in his world. I'm sure a majority of us have seen far worse example of cheesecake in public, especially you warm weather climate people. Is it bad or good, it's neither probably its just there.

Personally, I love all but a few instances of Paizo's art work and I hope they continue to create awesome art paired with a great gaming system.


Gruuuu wrote:
Lyingbastard wrote:


I'd like to see Ramon Perez - I always thought that his work was among the best artwork in the RIFTS books. Him and Kevin Long were basically responsible for the way RIFTS looks to me.
You mean this Ramon Perez?

The very same. Even if you don't like RIFTS, I would wholly recommend his RIFTS graphic novel, Machinations of Doom.


hunter1828 wrote:
Alzrius wrote:
Most everybody else seems quite happy with it.

Or at least unconcerned by it.

I think one thing about me that has been misinterpreted by others in this thread (not you) as I defended sexy art and the desire of people to view sexy art is that just because I like sexy art and I don't mind seeing it in RPG books doesn't mean that it is ALL I want in RPG art. If that were the case, I certainly wouldn't have had Talon Dunning do art of ugly trolls and clockwork familiars for 4WFG's upcoming Tome of Monsters. I'd have had him do art of sexy trolls (ow. I just made my eyes bleed...)

So I suppose the Orc swimsuit edition is off, then? :-P


<post to assert dwarven superiority in all things cheesecake, and (in a suitably dignified dwarven manner) to grab post number 500>

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