It's obvious a lot (most [all]) of the people on the forums hate them. But what the heck are they?
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It's obvious a lot (most [all]) of the people on the forums hate them. But what the heck are they?
Boring answer: Halflings with slightly different fluff
Common answers: annoying klepto midgets, pure awesome, kill it with fire, troll bait, and that thing we tied to a 10 ft pole and use to find traps
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It's obvious a lot (most [all]) of the people on the forums hate them. But what the heck are they?
They're the equivalent to halflings from the Dragonlance setting. Their racial inclination toward kelptomania is one of the traits that earns them the common hate.
More info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kender
Kender aren't the problem. The problem is the player who thinks that they can use playing a kender as an excuse to steal from the party. Instead of taking an interesting race and using it for its role playing opportunities, they wreak havoc on a game. It's too bad because it could really make for a fun campaign if used right.
Every "kinder" player I have played with (thankfully not for decades now, whew) stole from the party and was a general PITA. I know its not the kinder concepts fault...but its like the paladin, it takes a special player to play them without someone wanting to abandon them to rot grubs.
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Kender are basically a pet race, both of the writers and the gods, who were meant to embody innocent curiosity but unfortunately just ended up being kleptomaniacs with ADHD. It's like someone took the casts of Oliver! and Peter Pan and and did forced mating to make a race out of them, creating children who steal everything in sight and never grow up.
In a world that follows the logic of G-rated children's musical theatre, they're fine, but if they ever stray into any other genre, they either wreck it or are brutally killed or both.
For standard Sword & Sorcery, they can be reasonably played as the comic sidekick, but the more they annoy the party, the faster they fall into the role of the expendable sidekick. When the kender dies, there's generally even more rejoicing than when someone eats Sir Robin's minstrels.
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I heard of one kender in one game a friend played that sounded about right. The DM would roll randomly whenever the kendar came into contact with another player, and determine some object the kender would happen to "find". When the player would go to get their mirror or firebuilding kit or stowed potion, the DM would sometimes say "No you don't. You can't find it." Then kender character would then immediately say "Hey! I have this thing I found. Do you want it?" and offer it to the other player in question.
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I'll proudly go on record - I have no problem with Kender at all! As others have said, some people playing one in a D&D game might have been annoying but as written in the original Dragonlance trilogy, they are fine.
In fact, Tasslehoff Burrfoot is a wonderful character
If you haven't read the original Dragonlance trilogy, you should check them out. The books are certainly not The Lord of the Rings but they are very good books!
I'll proudly go on record - I have no problem with Kender at all! As others have said, some people playing one in a D&D game might have been annoying but as written in the original Dragonlance trilogy, they are fine.
In fact, Tasslehoff Burrfoot is a wonderful character
If you haven't read the original Dragonlance trilogy, you should check them out. The books are certainly not The Lord of the Rings but they are very good books!
SPOILER ALERT FOR DRAGONLANCE
the problem they developed with tasselhoff was after the first trilogy (dragonlance chronicles) they decided they were gonna kill him off every other book or so!, and then explain why he's alive is because of some time travel quirk they thought of because he was their only compelling character.
i used to have a kender for dragonlance, briar thistlepatch, he was chaotic good so i never had him steal from other party members i did have him be really annoying and ask innane questions like "what'cha doin'?, and "are we there yet?".
its important to see kender as either like a 6 year old or as a previous poster said a teenager with a.d.d. and a strong case of kleptomania, i did not like them very much,
nor did i care for dragonlance,
like when you reached 18th level in 1st edition krynn the gods kicked you off the planet because they were worried you would try to overthrow them (seriously), they only allowed one mortal to ascend past 18th level, that was a wizard they were scared of (again, seriously).
I'll proudly go on record - I have no problem with Kender at all! As others have said, some people playing one in a D&D game might have been annoying but as written in the original Dragonlance trilogy, they are fine.
In fact, Tasslehoff Burrfoot is a wonderful character
He's a character alright, nearly got us killed umpteen times!
And i swear he still has my flint and steel :/
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It's obvious a lot (most [all]) of the people on the forums hate them. But what the heck are they?They're the equivalent to halflings from the Dragonlance setting. Their racial inclination toward kelptomania is one of the traits that earns them the common hate.
More info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kender
Kender aren't the problem. The problem is the player who thinks that they can use playing a kender as an excuse to steal from the party. Instead of taking an interesting race and using it for its role playing opportunities, they wreak havoc on a game. It's too bad because it could really make for a fun campaign if used right.
Every "kinder" player I have played with (thankfully not for decades now, whew) stole from the party and was a general PITA. I know its not the kinder concepts fault...but its like the paladin, it takes a special player to play them without someone wanting to abandon them to rot grubs.
These posts all touch on the real issue, which isn't exactly a misunderstanding of the race itself so much as a misunderstanding of kleptomania.
Merriam-Webster[/url]]KLEPTOMANIA: a persistent neurotic impulse to steal especially without economic motive.
Kender generally pick things up because they are 'interesting', not because they are 'valuable'. Do the two qualities sometimes coincide? Sure they do, but most of the time they do not. A
Kender is far more likely to steal one of the barbarians fetishes than the party's gems.Granted, the Kender's 'habits' aren't exactly kleptomania but it's close enough to provide a real world basis which people can research if they care to even attempt to play the race as the creators intended.
Sadly, most people who want to play a Kender use greed as a motivation rather than curiosity, falling back on the excuse, "But I'm a Kender, this is how I'm supposed to act", when the rest of the party is upset that their valuables are constantly disappearing.
What is a Kender?
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Kender aren't the problem. The problem is the player
A-MEN!
Tasslehoff was a cool character in the novels. Especially the first.
It's the dickless Players that think one has to play a Kender like Tasslehoff that give Kender a bad AS-A-PC-Race reputation.
Good character -- bad PC.
Run your Kender without being a swamp donkey and Kender is a pretty good Race. Though, still exactly the same as Halfling.
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I always enjoyed playing Kender. Yes I would indeed "find" things the other party members "lost". Things like the wizard's hat (it was neat and pointy), the knights cameo of his late sister (she was really pretty wasn't she?), etc.
Between that and the constant curiosity, like looking over the wizards shoulder when he prepped his spells, or even trying to cast spells from his book when he wasn't looking, generally got a laugh out of the group. Would I very rarely do something stupid? Yes, he once snuck up on the BBEG, and shouted at him "Are the mean guy? You are in so much trouble!".
I miss Kender when played right, when they're not I make sure to aim better. ;)
Kender are the Dragonlance version of Halflings.
If played correctly, they are actually fun and interesting characters, unfortunately most people who play a kender are not imaginative enough to play them as anything other than irritating klepto trouble makers.
Kender are not kleptos, they are however curious in the extreme. Their culture has little concept of personal ownership, and value of an object or experience is based on their curiosity level, not intrinsic value, so if something catches their eye....they can't help but become interested.
This same curiosity is what drives them to see what's on the other side of every door. The greater the steps taken to prevent intruders, to a Kenders mind... means that what's on the other side must be all the more worth experiencing.
They are also fearless, and as a result the possible consequences of an action generally do not override their curiosity, as would happen in the case of most other races.
Anyone who has had a pet Ferret, has had a Kender in furry form ;)
Kender ar the way to move the plot line along... Hmm what happens when I pull this lever... hmm whats behind this dore....
`Where`s my boot` `Here, I`m using it to catch fish...`
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Never played in the Dragonlance setting, though the Dragons of Autumn Dawning is what originally drew me into fantasy as a genre back when I was in grade school. I woudlnt be playing DnD if I hadnt read that book. Tasslehoff is EASILY my favorite character. He is 50 kinds of awesome.
That being said, as a lot of people have already pointed out, I can absolutely see how a player can play a kender and have it be distracting to say the least. It would take some veteran RP and good control to play one properly, and I agree with the sentiment that its the players that give kender their reputation, not the race itself.
It's obvious a lot (most [all]) of the people on the forums hate them. But what the heck are they?
Really? I didn't think many hated Kender. Most of the reason I bothered reading Dragonlance novels was because of the kender race. I think they're awesome. My handle is a shortened version of my first kender's name :D
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I think the reason that someone is thinking kender hate is from my thread called "help me build a kender without kender hate"
I got a few helpful posts and a bunch of jackwagons who just wanted to hate and say things like cherry-picking and meta-gaming.....
Also outright dismissed anyone else's opinion such as "tongue in cheek" nature of the entire racial "write-up"....
My favorite is that you're metagaming if you enter a room and don't stuff absolutely everything in it into your pockets. [rolls eyes]
I played a tag team game with our group, we each played two characters.
I played a Minotaur and a Kender team. let me tell you, those two got into so much trouble do to the Kender that the Minotaur and the rest of the pary had to fight their way out of.
The Kender is actually a great race as long as the player isnt a dick about it. My kender would taunt the crap out of the enemy and that allowed the rest of the group to kick its but. Sure I ended up with some of the other party members stuff on occasion, but it wasnt his coin or gems that always ended up in my pockets. Though the cleric was really pissed when they found out I had their Holly symbol in my hands when he went to go pray....lol
Kender are disliked as they are borderline unplayable. They have no fear of death, act foolish as they are will pull a rope with a sign saying "do not pull trap"
They are kleptomaniacs that steal anything and everything not nailed down and lie about it. In fact they believe whatever lie they told you. They don't even remember stealing what ever they have. All kender steal and lie and simply can not stop.
This can be comic in a goofy g rated game or more likely the kender player is a dick and without massive amounts of metagaming or GM pity it will always cause issues and get the party killed.
Incorrect I created a character "Trapdodger barefoot" asking that people who were interested in helping with the build could click on the profile and read it......
My default name is this one, and once the thread degenerated, I went with my default alias....is this an issue?
In fact I often pbp on here and have several aliases (mostly PC's for games), so you are mad at my character and/or me personally and if so for what reason?
You are also incorrect in stating that I asked people to respond to the OP, when I was the OP....
Well, according to the account listing, your main account is "Freddy Honeycutt."
If you use two or more aliases in the same thread--apart from things like obvious jokes--it does look a lot like sockpuppeting.
I don't care which alias you use, but if two posters in the same thread are the same person, it's at very best confusing.
Incorrect I created a character "Trapdodger barefoot" asking that people who were interested in helping with the build could click on the profile and read it......
My default name is this one, and once the thread degenerated, I went with my default alias....is this an issue?
In fact I often pbp on here and have several aliases (mostly PC's for games), so you are mad at my character and/or me personally and if so for what reason?
You are also incorrect in stating that I asked people to respond to the OP, when I was the OP....
Well, according to the account listing, your main account is "Freddy Honeycutt."
If you use two or more aliases in the same thread--apart from things like obvious jokes--it does look a lot like sockpuppeting.
I don't care which alias you use, but if two posters in the same thread are the same person, it's at very best confusing.
Not really but did you have any advice on this character since really in PF terms it is a halfling rather than a kender, thus the can you help build a kender without kender hate....
Also freddy honeycutt is not an alias it is an actual name!
Kender are pretty much halflings or hobbits with different fluff as far as I can see. A few abilities may be moved around, but pretty much the same thing.
As to why people hate them? Does it really matter? I personally don't hate any race, I just have some I prefer to play (or not play). Somebody earlier mentioned a kender being a ferret in humanoid form (as far as personality). I think that is a perfect description.
Kender are strange beasts with the nearly unique ability to cause rocks to fall from the clear blue sky to strike them, terminally, on the head when played incorrectly.
Which is better than 95% of the time. :)
-S
They are one of those things that were invented so "smart" people can say they understand them better then "idiots" that just do it wrong. IMO if way more then half of people interpret something wrong it probably wasn't done too well in the first place.
They were totally worth all the kleptomania and annoyance for the vampire cannibal Kender in Sithicus.
I miss the Ravenloft Gazeteers... :'(
In the right hands, greatness. In the wrong ones, a scarring experience that will turn every player in the group off from the race forever.
In the right hands, greatness. In the wrong ones, a scarring experience that will turn every player in the group off from the race forever.
See my previous post
I admit that I like kender and ran one for quite a while in high school which was 2nd edition rules back at the time. We used the old Dragonlance Adventures book which had specific rules for kender pouches and kender theft. Basically, the player wasn't in control of what he/she stole. The kender had a list of pouches and the DM rolled what randomly ended up in them. Much like in the books, Tas never specifically stole anything, but a lot of things randomly ended up in their pouch. That way the player could genuinely act surprised if the another player's gem/ring/magic item/etc. ended up in the kender's pouch. Also, the kender fearlessness was a product of being immune to fear spells. Even a kender wouldn't willing walk into an obvious trap or ambush. As an example, in the first Dragonlance book when the Companions are captured by hobgoblins, Tas doesn't just walk fearlessly walk into the middle of the hobgoblin war band. Instead, he sneaks into a wicker dragon and takes control of it to try to get his friends free. So that being said, I never played my kender as a chaotic stupid klepto. However, I've never played in a group with someone else running a kender and I haven't played in the DL setting in over a decade (even though I bought the unsupported 3E hard cover book).
They are one of those things that were invented so "smart" people can say they understand them better then "idiots" that just do it wrong. IMO if way more then half of people interpret something wrong it probably wasn't done too well in the first place.+1 the orginal write up is very misleading and filled with contradictions.....
Example
1st edition wrote:
"Kendermore is only a short distance away from the remains of an old human city-state called the Ruins by the kender who explore it in droves. It is said that finding artifacts in the ruins is easy"1st edition wrote
kender philosophy
Four things make a kender's personality drastically different from that of a typical human. Kender are utterly fearless, insatiably
curious, unstoppably mobile and independent, and will pick up anything that is not nailed down (though kender with claw ham- mers will get those things as well).So how is it possible there is anything remaining in the ruins?
Because the gods continually restock it like a giant Walmart, obviously. There's at least one official dungeon like that in Forgotten Realms, so why should the ruins be any different?
There's also the case that if the Kender are continually appropriating stuff and misplacing it, but never apparently getting rid of anything, Kendermore should be somewhere between a giant garbage dump and antique store, and occasionally sheer avalanches of pilfered grot should bury kender alive.
Apparently the gods tidy up after the kender as well, because they look mentally incapable of cleaning up after themselves.
+1 the orginal write up is very misleading and filled with contradictions.....
No it was not. It may not match what you think a kender is but it does not contradict itself or mislead. It states plainly and clearly what a kender is. You kept saying it was different then the 2e/3e write up, saying they added things. So I posted the whole of the 1e write up, which was almost word for word the 2e/3e write up. They added nothing. It does not contradict itself, it shows that the kender are well insane. It tells you in great detail how they must be played. It tells you how they act and why they act that way. You do not have the option of not acting that way and play a kender.
The claw hammer thing you kept calling hyperbole, yet the rest of the write up back that up. It was not a random statement at all. The kender are thieves and can be nothing else. It is in their very souls, the stealing, the lies, the believing the lies they tell. It is what makes them kender.
Woh a dungeon or ruin in a fantasy world that isn't picked clean..I am shocked...your right this proves kender steal nothing and the write up from 1e is wrong.
My guess the same gods that have kept kender from being wiped out by other races for being kender keep restocking it as it amuses them.
Woh a dungeon or ruin in a fantasy world that isn't picked clean..I am shocked...your right this proves kender steal nothing and the write up from 1e is wrong.
My guess the same gods that have kept kender from being wiped out by other races for being kender keep restocking it as it amuses them.
Actually...this raises an interesting question. I know we don't agree on Kender(and I may have brought this up in the other thread), but issues of scale make me wonder whether or not you and other are viewing Kender not as natural thieves, but instead as locusts. If they truly do steal everything(due to oversimplified math, every 20th time you go for something, a Kender has already stolen it), then how does anything in said society exist? How was it made in the first place if somehow, some way, a kender has ready made away with the tools for said item before it was even made? How do you have much of anything beyond 20 days?
Are Kender black holes? Interesting.
Woh a dungeon or ruin in a fantasy world that isn't picked clean..I am shocked...your right this proves kender steal nothing and the write up from 1e is wrong.
My guess the same gods that have kept kender from being wiped out by other races for being kender keep restocking it as it amuses them.
Actually...this raises an interesting question. I know we don't agree on Kender(and I may have brought this up in the other thread), but issues of scale make me wonder whether or not you and other are viewing Kender not as natural thieves, but instead as locusts. If they truly do steal everything(due to oversimplified math, every 20th time you go for something, a Kender has already stolen it), then how does anything in said society exist? How was it made in the first place if somehow, some way, a kender has ready made away with the tools for said item before it was even made? How do you have much of anything beyond 20 days?
Are Kender black holes? Interesting.
Nah kender create an infinite loop stealing from each other.
From the write up kender "society" is much like someone left the inmates out of the asylum. If they need a tool they simply take it, not like they believe in owning anything, besides they way they see it they will bring it back..as long as no one asks where it came from, then they lie and believe the lie..so oops.
I don't think anyone who dislikes them is saying it makes sense, the issue you bring up is why kender do not make sense. They just could not exist long term outside of some G rated Disney like setting.
Harold Johnson created kender and Tasslehoff Burrfoot to annoy people. He bragged it in print.
He did a great job then.