So, I was looking at the Chainbreaker alternate racial weapon familiarity for Half-Orcs. And it occurred to me that the Dire Flail might actually be the most heavily feat-and-attribute taxed piece of equipment in the game - even if you get the affinity for free.
To get its full potential, you must have the following attributes:
DEX 19 (Greater Two Weapon Combat)
INT 13 (Combat Expertise)
...plus the STR needed to use it effectively.
Now, let's look at the feats:
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Optional if Half-Orc)
Combat Expertise
Improved Trip
Greater Trip
Combat Reflexes
Improved Disarm
Greater Disarm
Two Weapon Fighting
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Double-Slice
Two Weapon Rend
Two Weapon Defense
Weapon Focus
Greater Weapon Focus
Weapon Specialization
Greater Weapon Specialization
Improved Critical
Color me impressed - 17(!) feats tied into getting the most out of ONE piece of equipment.
However, by the time you've got it all (around level 12...)
Two Weapon Fighting, Combat Expertise
Improved Trip
Double Slice
Weapon Focus (Dire Flail)
Improved Disarm
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Greater Trip
Greater Weapon Focus (Dire Flail)
Greater Disarm
Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Weapon Specialization (Dire Flail)
Combat Reflexes
...you're doing BABs of +12/+12/+7/+7/+2/+2. If you're doing Disarms or Trips, you're doing +16/+16/+11/+11/+6/+6. To qualify for the Greater Two Weapon Fighting, you'll have a DEX that allows you to do 5 AoAs minimum, and probably 6.
So - 6 trips, 6 AoAs, and if you're willing to give up a trip/AoA, you can always use a general attack, or for the last one, try for a disarm. Just so you leave them lying on the floor with their weapon 15' away. :)
I'm not sure that's the *best* use for 13 feats. I'm pretty sure I'd get bored with the character's combat style well before we got to 12th level. :)
I can only guess that the dire flail doesn't have three different weapon traits so it can be versatile - it's a matter of choice for the user. If say, a Half-Orc Fighter were going to use it, he may not focus on combat maneuvers; it'd be more efficient to focus on feats that increase damage output or survivability.
Personally, if I were going to use it, I'd just slap it onto a Half-Orc Fighter that has the Two Weapon Fighter archetype from the APG. In that case however, I'd more likely go with the Orc double axe, given its higher crit multiplier and slash damage. Like I said, unless you're going to invest feats to trip or disarm enemies, you really don't need to use them.
All those options, and for a ridiculous made-up weapon that would be nearly impossible to use in a fight.
All those options, and for a ridiculous made-up weapon that would be nearly impossible to use in a fight.
The single shaft with two spiked balls on the ends form of the dire flail would be unwieldy but the 3 shafts connected by chain ala the three section staff is a decent flail weapon.
We are just used to seeing the spiked ball flail when the footman's military flail more closely resembled an agricultural threshing flail.
The exotic double weapons (well exotics in general) are deeply problematic from a game balance perspective and a double weapon that is also a trip weapon only heightens those problematic elements.
From a purely visual perspective the three-section staff dire flail model is pretty cool but it is incredibly feat and ability score intensive when using those same resources to maximize a couple of martial weapons would actually give a better return on investment.
|
So, I was looking at the Chainbreaker alternate racial weapon familiarity for Half-Orcs. And it occurred to me that the Dire Flail might actually be the most heavily feat-and-attribute taxed piece of equipment in the game - even if you get the affinity for free.
To get its full potential, you must have the following attributes:
DEX 19 (Greater Two Weapon Combat)
INT 13 (Combat Expertise)...plus the STR needed to use it effectively.
Now, let's look at the feats:
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Optional if Half-Orc)
Combat Expertise
Improved Trip
Greater Trip
Combat Reflexes
Improved Disarm
Greater DisarmTwo Weapon Fighting
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Double-Slice
Two Weapon Rend
Two Weapon DefenseWeapon Focus
Greater Weapon FocusWeapon Specialization
Greater Weapon Specialization
Improved CriticalColor me impressed - 17(!) feats tied into getting the most out of ONE piece of equipment.
However, by the time you've got it all (around level 12...)
Two Weapon Fighting, Combat Expertise
Improved Trip
Double Slice
Weapon Focus (Dire Flail)
Improved Disarm
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Greater Trip
Greater Weapon Focus (Dire Flail)
Greater Disarm
Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Weapon Specialization (Dire Flail)
Combat Reflexes
You don't need combat reflexes at all
Combat Reflexes synergizes nicely with Greater Trip.
Greater Trip allows you to make an AoA against anyone you successfully Trip. Combat Reflexes gives you enough AoAs to do this to a bunch of opponents.
Note that I'm not saying this is an optimized build in any way, shape, form or mad ramblings of Cthulhu. Or even that it's a Good Idea. (It probably isn't).
I'm just entertained that with one weapon I can soak 17(!) feats.
And figuring that it's gotta look like something out of a Jet Li movie when that Full Attack action rips. :)
You see, what it looks like is this:
"Trip, AoA (Disarm), Trip, AoA (Disarm), Trip AoA (Disarm)"
"Trip, AoA (Disarm), Trip, AoA (Disarm), Trip AoA (Disarm)"
Now, you've doing no damage to anyone. But you've now got 6 opponents potentially laying on their kiesters, with their weapons 15' away from them.
Just for Wuxia Style Points, that's tempting.
Of course, by 12th level, everyone is flying anyway, so it's nowhere near as cool as it might seem. :)
|
To get its full potential
Getting its FULL potential isn't exactly the same as a feat tax. A feat tax is something that is so baseline, so necessary to be able to do something effectively, that you basically have to take it in order to have a worthwhile character. Nitpicky, yet, but I can't stand how often the term is thrown around these days.
Adding notes in bold
Now, let's look at the feats:
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Optional if Half-Orc)
Combat Expertise -This feat has nothing to do with the Dire Flail specifically, whatsoever. Not sure why it's on the list of feats that are needed.
Improved Trip -Good if you took the dire flail to be able to do combat maneuvers, but not required to get use out of the weapon.
Greater Trip -See Improved Trip
Combat Reflexes -A good feat for any melee character with decent dex, but again, has nothing to do with the dire flail specifically.
Improved Disarm -See Improved Trip
Greater Disarm -See Improved TripTwo Weapon Fighting
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Double-Slice
Two Weapon Rend
Two Weapon Defense
All of these are pretty standard issue for anything with two weapons or a double weapon. These are no more a tax for a dire flail user than for any other two-weapon fighter.Weapon Focus
Greater Weapon FocusWeapon Specialization
Greater Weapon Specialization
Improved Critical[b]These are all standard issue for Fighters, and again, they have no specific tie to a dire flail.
I guess my point is that the thread could use a different name. Dire flail can make use of a ton of feats, but the OP implies that you essentially have to have all of these to be able to use it effectively, which is just not true.
Try two-weapon fighting with two whips instead. Then you can add Weapon Finesse and Improved/Greater Steal to your list of feats (not to mention various non-Core+APG feats and traits...).
Hogarth, that's a full 20 feats! Woo!
Can we add a 21st? :)
Oh, and Ogre - agreed. The Heavy Crossbow is saddening. (That said, I still have a character using one in PBP. Admittedly, he's a Sorcerer who has two of them, casts Unseen Servant and Gravity Bow.
Alternate with the Servant loading the crossbow and swapping them out. It's having a shooter-and-loader. The way Gravity Bow works, it isn't cast on the bow, it's cast on the person using the ability.)
The Double Heavy Crossbow is crazy.
I do agree that "Feat Tax" was the wrong term (and I am the Original Poster). Let's call it "Getting The Most Out Of Your Toy."
No, not all of the feats are required for the Dire Flail.
Getting its FULL potential isn't exactly the same as a feat tax. A feat tax is something that is so baseline, so necessary to be able to do something effectively, that you basically have to take it in order to have a worthwhile character.
+1
If you want to see a feat tax look at the heavy crossbow where you have to take 2 feats for it to be as useful as the longbow is at first level.
+1
Two-handed flails with long handles were more common in medieval warfare than single-handed flails.
A two-handed flail is common in many parts of the world. A two-headed flail is quite different, and I doubt it ever existed as a tool.
The single shaft with two spiked balls on the ends form of the dire flail would be unwieldy but the 3 shafts connected by chain ala the three section staff is a decent flail weapon.
It's not just the 3.0 & 3.5 art that makes the dire flail look like a pair of horseman's flails on a staff. From PF Core, "Flail, Dire: A dire flail consists of two spheres of spiked iron dangling from chains at opposite ends of a long haft."
A three section staff isn't wielded by holding the middle section and swinging the ends around. You can flourish and twirl them around for show that way, but except for the occasional strike, they're wielded by holding the two end sections. The "balls and chains" version is silly.
The exotic double weapons (well exotics in general) are deeply problematic from a game balance perspective
I've never seen double weapons pose a game balance problem, and while there are a few exotic weapons that are written too powerful, I don't think they pose a problem in general.
Could you explain that a little or give me an example?
The exotic double weapons (well exotics in general) are deeply problematic from a game balance perspectiveI've never seen double weapons pose a game balance problem, and while there are a few exotic weapons that are written too powerful, I don't think they pose a problem in general.
Could you explain that a little or give me an example?
In my mind the benefits of say a double sword (slightly better average damage, being able to use as a two-handed weapon instead of two-weapon fighting) aren't really worth the opportunity cost associated with the exotic weapon proficiency.
The cost-benefit of a doublesword over using two short sword, or orc double axe over two hand axes is simply too low.
The Dire Flail is unusual in this regards because it doubles up two flails (which have no light martial equivalent) and thus has the additional benefit of giving a double + trip weapon only one Weapon Focus/Imp Critical/Weapon Specialization chain to invest in.
In cases were you get weapon familiarity for free (Orc Double Axe,Gnome Hooked Hammer, Curveblade, Waraxe) the benefits of a virtual exotic weapon proficiency are nice but often illusory (curveblade being a finesseable exotic falchion is exceedingly dubious though- elven exceptionalism at work D:<)
IMHO the double weapons outside of the quarterstaff are "cool" options that simply don't deliver on their promises. The coolness of them in relation to their actual utility makes them traps.
Plus many of them are beyond stupid ;)
What if their promise is just the promise to be cool?
I like cool weapons.
You shouldn't have to pay a feat tax in order to get what is essentially a flashy special effect.
Either give the exotic weapon mechanical benefits equivalent to other feats or get rid of the exotic weapon proficiency completely and make exotic weapons equivalent to martial weapons.
The double sword would then be two short sword with a shaft connecting the blades, etc.
+1 avg damage per surface considering all the other feats necessary to use double weapons (TWF at a minimum) simply isn't a good deal.
And being a Darth Maul clone is passe ;)
|
|
What if their promise is just the promise to be cool?
I like cool weapons.
You shouldn't have to pay a feat tax in order to get what is essentially a flashy special effect.
Either give the exotic weapon mechanical benefits equivalent to other feats or get rid of the exotic weapon proficiency completely and make exotic weapons equivalent to martial weapons.
The double sword would then be two short sword with a shaft connecting the blades, etc.
+1 avg damage per surface considering all the other feats necessary to use double weapons (TWF at a minimum) simply isn't a good deal.
And being a Darth Maul clone is passe ;)
Passe is classic waiting to happen :b
Fair point though, cool should not hold you back.
What if their promise is just the promise to be cool?
I like cool weapons.
You shouldn't have to pay a feat tax in order to get what is essentially a flashy special effect.
Either give the exotic weapon mechanical benefits equivalent to other feats or get rid of the exotic weapon proficiency completely and make exotic weapons equivalent to martial weapons.
They tried that: was called the spiked chain. It had reach (+attack up close), 2d4 damage, finess, and trip.
Pathfinfer has a exotic Heavy Flail called Spiked Chain though (no idea why you'd use exotic proficiency unless hate Heavy Flail).It was nerfed: Paizo doesn't seem to agree that feat taxes shouldn't be required for a flashy special effect.
Spiked Chain was worth the feat, but not longer.
IMHO the double weapons outside of the quarterstaff are "cool" options that simply don't deliver on their promises. The coolness of them in relation to their actual utility makes them traps.
Plus many of them are beyond stupid ;)
This - I think the purpose of this thread was to plumb the most tempting of the trap double weapons (the Dire Flail) and see how many feats you could justify into dumping into the weapon.
Though the Double Heavy Crossbow is another "Why, Paizo, WHY?!" weapon. :)
The biggest feat tax in the game is EWP, because it's literally a tax on wanting to have a cool looking weapon. And nothing else.
Death to EWP.
The biggest feat tax in the game is EWP, because it's literally a tax on wanting to have a cool looking weapon. And nothing else.
Well, it can alternatively be a "+1 to damage" feat -- the bastard sword vs. longsword.
The biggest feat tax in the game is EWP, because it's literally a tax on wanting to have a cool looking weapon. And nothing else.Well, it can alternatively be a "+1 to damage" feat -- the bastard sword vs. longsword.
I don't think anyone takes it for that, though. I haven't seen a bastard sword in forever.
|
|
I don't think anyone takes it for that, though. I haven't seen a bastard sword in forever.The biggest feat tax in the game is EWP, because it's literally a tax on wanting to have a cool looking weapon. And nothing else.Well, it can alternatively be a "+1 to damage" feat -- the bastard sword vs. longsword.
Clerics of Ragathiel will have them, and the odd villain.
Bastard swords (without EWP) are a good arcane bond weapon for fighter/wizards, since you can wield it two-handed for melee attacks at no penalty, and switch to one-handed for spellcasting (at a -4 to attack with the sword, which you aren't doing anyway).
|
Clerics of Ragathiel will have them, and the odd villain.I don't think anyone takes it for that, though. I haven't seen a bastard sword in forever.The biggest feat tax in the game is EWP, because it's literally a tax on wanting to have a cool looking weapon. And nothing else.Well, it can alternatively be a "+1 to damage" feat -- the bastard sword vs. longsword.
My Playtest Magus used one... The mini that I based the character on had one (And I worked from the Mini... creating the character based upon it, which was very fun). I would go with one hand when casting with the off hand, then double grip it for the Power-Attacked (And True Strike'd) attack.
I didn't actually have to worry about the EW feat, as I (Gnome) took Master Tinkerer, and made the weapon myself, thus gaining proficiency with it.
-Uriel
PS:I also made a bunch of bizarre items, as the race Archetype was chosen for more than just skipping burning as Feat.
|
Using a large bastard sword with a minus -2 to hit, a la the iconic barbarian, is pretty ballsy as well. Or ovary(-sy? -ry?).
When it comes to double weapons, there's also a few other pros not yet mentioned:
1. Using a double weapon instead of two separate arms, say a dagger and a foil, allows one to get full advantage with a single instance of a each weapon feat - Focus, Improved Critical(), etc. It's basically the same as having for instance two daggers or two kukris, but...
2. ...double weapons can be wielded two-handed as well, dealing 1.5 str/PA damage. No need to throw a weapon away to chance to two-handed fighting. Not to mention, you can't wield a kukri that way anyhow. Hope you have a one-handed weapon ready somewhere.
And I totally like those free racial weapon proficiencies. Sure, a half-orc ranger with a double axe is a ridiculous-looking spectacle, but works great from the get-go. An urgrosh is also one of most versatile weapons in the game, so dwarves aren't left in the dust either.
As for feat taxes - look up the Dwarven Dorn-degar. To be able to get all it's abilities, you must first pick up the proficiency with a feat, which doesn't come free to dwarves either. Then get 3 feats, Darting Viper, Two-Weapon Fighting and DD Mastery, to fill in the list of abilities. Naturally, you don't have to use it a as a double weapon, but then why did you pick the thing up anyway? A super-cool armament, but I wish there was an easier way to get reach-adjacent somehow. Other than Catch Off-Guard, I mean.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
So is the original post with its list of feats an example of Epic Flail? ;-)
And Prof, I use the Bastard Sword/Katana/Great Scimitar (when I can include the later) a lot, just personal prefrence. IRL I'm big enough that I can easily use it in one hand, and that's one attribute I don't mind spending a feat to bring to my characters. :-)
The biggest feat tax in the game is EWP, because it's literally a tax on wanting to have a cool looking weapon. And nothing else.
Death to EWP.
If you take a look at the exotic weapons, there are a few categories:
- Monk weapons that nobody every takes EWP for
(Kama, Nunchaku, Sai, Siangham) - Double weapons
(Orc Double Axe, Dire Flail, Gnome Hooked Hammer, Two-Bladed Sword, Dwarven Urgosh)
Most of these are silly, but neither too powerful nor too weak. They're slightly better than using two identical weapons for TWF, but they require a feat. - Good weapon choices
(Bastard Sword, Dwarven Waraxe)
For certain characters, these are excellent weapons. One feat for +1 damage and 1H/2H options. - Weapons you take to get multiple special maneuvers
(Whip, Spiked Chain)
For a character who wants to do a lot of maneuvers, these can be worth while. - Some writer's pet character
(Elven Curve Blade)
Seriously, where did this come from? Every other weapon on this list was in the 3.5 PHB. This had to be somebody's pet.
At the same time, which weapons are considered simple vs. marshal are frequently nonsensical. For example, a sickle is a light, simple, trip weapon, although if you've every used one they're really not made for combat and would be quite difficult to wield. Conversely, light hammer & handaxe are marshal, although they convey no special abilities and are quite simple to use.
What I'd really like to see is a system like TSR came up with for gladiators in Darksun. Every gladiator was considered proficient with every gladiator weapon, just like martial classes with martial weapons. Each gladiator weapon had one or more special abilities that were only usable by someone who took an additional proficiency with it.
Following along with some what others are saying, I think the cool thing about the dire flail are the potential ways you can take expertise in the weapon (or a similar weapon) but it doesn't mean you have to or should take all of them. It's about giving you options, not necessarily about maxing them out. Of course, you want to play a half-orc Fighter and build a complex series of feat trees "to the max" and have the opportunity to do so, go for it.
If I were thinking of making a dire flail user, I would use it primarily as a double weapon (and thus focus on taking the TWF trees) but with the option to easily perform a few cool combat maneuvers if I wanted to, when it made sense. Maybe down the line I'd take Combat Expertise and either Improved Trip or Improved Disarm. Say, for example, make a secondary trip build.... but I could always use it to disarm if I wanted and get that nice +2 (plus all my fighter bonuses to CMB) and provoke an AOO (no big deal to a tough half orc fighter)---it's awesome to have that choice---but generally speaking, just because I had the versatility wouldn't mean I would use every aspect of a versatile weapon, to the max, all the time (indeed, it's rather difficult to--even if you're capable, there's only so many things you can trip and disarm). That's just me.
If I wanted a chain weapon and REALLY focus on trip and disarm feats, I would forget about the TWFing and go with the heavy flail or spiked chain, the former if I also wanted to focus on 2-handed damage, and the latter if I wanted a finesse build that focused on disabling and harrying enemies rather than just pounding on them.
This thread does remind me of the suggestion, however, of making Two Weapon Fighting a feat that simply increases in its number of attacks as you gain levels and Dexterity, rather than having to take the additional Improved and Greater feats. There's a similar suggestion out there for the Vital Strike Tree. I have to imagine it wouldn't be too broken, especially since the upper levels of the feats/feat trees are only seen in high level games, which are in the minority of games that occur (and few PFRPG related materials like APs notably support campaigns for over 15th level anyway).
This thread does remind me of the suggestion, however, of making Two Weapon Fighting a feat that simply increases in its number of attacks as you gain levels and Dexterity, rather than having to take the additional Improved and Greater feats. There's a similar suggestion out there for the Vital Strike Tree. I have to imagine it wouldn't be too broken, especially since the upper levels...
+1
Or, subsequent feats of the chain should add more than a simple scale.
IMHO pathfinder is on the good way for a lot of things - there are several feats and class features scaling - the thing just needs to be streamlined a bit.
OP: you spent 5 feats on the weapon. Other feats can be used with other weapons and options. You can use combat expertise while disarmed and using just gauntlets and total defense, waiting for the rogue to flank and dispathc the threat.
You can use TWF with a quarterstaff you just grabbed to defend yourself from a surprise attack. You can use TWF to trow two handaxes you had in hand. You can trip with a glaive. And so on.
The problem is that the primary benefit of EWP (monk weapons excluded which generally suck for anything other than a monk) is the +1 avg damage over the base weapon/weapons. Some exotics have additional benefits (one-handed/two-handed, CMB status, Double Weapon) and some have a ton of benefits (Elven Curvblade D:<) but the primary tangible benefit is +1 dmg.
Comparing this to other feats we know that +1 to hit is better than +1 to damage so EWP < WF.
Weapon Specialization has 3 pre-requisites (Fighter only, 4th level, WS- and is arguably weak) but provides 2x the average benefit of EWP. So do the pre-requisites justify that much of a discount?
For me personally I disliked the feat tax of going with a Bastard Sword (which was my personal favorite for human fighters back in the day). Basically the game is telling me I need to spend a bonus feat to get a somewhat cool and flexible weapon that is mechanically inferior to a greatsword?
My personal solution is to abandon the EWP completely and just fold weapons back into the martial category, eliminating the overpowered and stupid EWs at the same time. Another alternative would be to make EWP a trait because most assessments of the EWP feat indicate it's roughly 1/2 the value of other feats which is coincidentally equivalent to a trait ;)
This thread does remind me of the suggestion, however, of making Two Weapon Fighting a feat that simply increases in its number of attacks as you gain levels and Dexterity, rather than having to take the additional Improved and Greater feats. There's a similar suggestion out there for the Vital Strike Tree. I have to imagine it wouldn't be too broken, especially since the upper levels...
I agree that TWF, Trip, Sunder, Bull Rush, Disarm, Feint, Overrun, Vital Strike, Spell Focus, and a few other feats should all scale with levels.
The problem is that the primary benefit of EWP (monk weapons excluded which generally suck for anything other than a monk) is the +1 avg damage over the base weapon/weapons. Some exotics have additional benefits (one-handed/two-handed, CMB status, Double Weapon) and some have a ton of benefits (Elven Curvblade D:<) but the primary tangible benefit is +1 dmg.
I disagree. The "additional benefits" are quite important.
For me personally I disliked the feat tax of going with a Bastard Sword (which was my personal favorite for human fighters back in the day). Basically the game is telling me I need to spend a bonus feat to get a somewhat cool and flexible weapon that is mechanically inferior to a greatsword?
The Bastard Sword isn't an inferior greatsword, it's a superior Longsword. By spending a feat, you get +1 damage in one hand, built on top of what is already one of the most optimized martial weapons, to make the best 1-handed weapon.
This thread does remind me of the suggestion, however, of making Two Weapon Fighting a feat that simply increases in its number of attacks as you gain levels and Dexterity, rather than having to take the additional Improved and Greater feats. There's a similar suggestion out there for the Vital Strike Tree. I have to imagine it wouldn't be too broken, especially since the upper levels...I agree that TWF, Trip, Sunder, Bull Rush, Disarm, Feint, Overrun, Vital Strike, Spell Focus, and a few other feats should all scale with levels.
Personally, I wouldn't extend the concept to all of those.
What makes TWF and Vital Strike specifically stand out to me is
1. All they give you is "more of the same that you had before"--additional bonus dice, an additional attack at a suitable penalty, etc.
2. If you think of the abilities as one continuum of an ability--which they basically are--they are abilities that scale with BAB/Level---very much in the way that Power Attack and Combat Expertise scale. Yet they don't make you take Improved/Greater/Advanced Power Attack every 5 levels. This is inconsistent.
3. They increase at the same rate, roughly, as you gain multiple attacks (+6/+11/+16 BAB). And in the case of TWF, have VERY high Stat prerequisites. You won't see the upper end of them--much in the way you won't see a full maxed power attack--save in the rare high level campaign.
I would NOT apply the same concept to the Combat Maneuver feats (Trip, Disarm, Sunder, etc.) because they are not just iterative bonuses--you are getting something totally new for each feat in the tree (e.g., tripped characters provoke AOOs with "Greater"). I would find it awkward to make one single feat give a whole new ability when you gain 6th level or something. The only thing I don't like about the CM trees is how they all require you to start with Power Attack or Combat Expertise, abilities which have very little to do with the combat maneuvers they lead to (and how come you gotta be strong to knock someone back but not to trip them, and how come you gotta be smart to trip someone but not overrun them?). At the same time, I am uncomfortable house ruling away the prerequisite...
I can kind of see increasing Spell Focus/Spell Penetration, but it would require adding level requirements to feats that don't have level requirements. You can take spell focus at 1st level and greater spell focus at 3rd if you wanted and not be much worse for the wear. And iteratively increasing them beyond +2 advances into easily unbalancing territory (though it would reduce caster ability score dependence, but to what degree do you want to do that?).
Sorry all I know I'm going OT, but ever since that thread awhile back about combining and rebalancing feats, this has been on my mind.
What makes TWF and Vital Strike specifically stand out to me is
1. All they give you is "more of the same that you had before"--additional bonus dice, an additional attack at a suitable penalty, etc.2. If you think of the abilities as one continuum of an ability--which they basically are--they are abilities that scale with BAB/Level---very much in the way that Power Attack and Combat Expertise scale. Yet they don't make you take Improved/Greater/Advanced Power Attack every 5 levels. This is inconsistent.
This is how we've rewritten Vital Strike for our home game:
VITAL STRIKE (STRIKE)
Prerequisite: BAB +6
Benefit: When making a single attack as a standard action, or as part of a Spring Attack or charge, you deal an additional +2d6 damage. If your BAB is +11 or higher, the bonus damage increases to +4d6. At BAB +16, it increases to +6d6.
Special: If you also have the Skirmish feat, you can apply your Vital Strike damage to iterative attacks made while moving.
Special: A fighter with the Foehammer talent doubles the bonus damage from Vital Strike when making a single attack, and also ignores the target's DR.
Notice the minor scaling with BAB, and the major synergy with other feats/talents.
I really abhor the use of the term "feat tax".
Feat taxes are real, unfortunately, although you're correct that nothing in the OP is a feat tax. All ranged weapons have at least a two-feat feat tax, for example: if you want to actually use a ranged weapon in combat regularly instead of just "well it's flying and I can't get to it", you have to take Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. They're absolutely required to be effective in ranged combat. As mentioned before, a crossbow user also has an additional feat tax in Rapid Reload.
Well, had I been as clever as Matthew Morris, I'd've titled this thread "Epic Flail" and not mentioned the Feat Taxes.
I am still trying to figure out why anyone would spend a feat to use a Double Crossbow, given that the feat reduces your NonProficiency Penalty from -8 to -4.
(I'm also one of the many GMs who has ruled that the repeating and hand crossbows are Simple weapons.)
EWP for the benefit it provides is astonishingly weak.
YOu keep saying it gives "the best one handed weapon in the game," but it really doesn't.
Lesson 1 of 3.x: weapon damage past level 2 or maybe 3 doesn't mean that much.
Your main damage will be from strength or power attack or other assorted modifiers. A bastard sword compared to a longsword gets +1 damage on average. But, if you're using a one handed weapon, that means you are either a) a magus, and thus you have a lot of other feats you'll want to get, and your weapon choice doesn't matter that much due to spells, or b) you are using a shield, at which point, again, there's a lot of other feats you'll want first.
Exotic weapons fall into three catagories.
1) It's not "European." Monk weapons or the bizarre idea of the "Exotic" repeating crossbow fall into place. The problem is simple - a repeating crossbow is pretty much literally the easiest weapon in all of D&D to use, and yet it somehow requires specialized training?
2) It requires specialized training. I think the Dire Flail and a few others fall into here. The problem is: what decides what does and does not need specialized training? Welsh longbows needed specialized training, for years, at that, and yet they're given away free to any fighter or paladin who wants them.
3) They're "better" then other weapons. The issue here is that, well, they usually aren't. Weapon damage doesn't matter all that much in the long term. Here's what matters. a) crit range. b) Special modifiers. c) Handedness. And that's it. The crit range, special abilities tagged on like reach or +2 to tripping, and if it's light/one hand/two hand. Most of the exotic weapons give such a paltry increase that it doesn't really matter.
The biggest issue is that all three are crammed into the same feat. So exotic crossbows are somehow difficult to use? Bastard swords are considered "exotic?" The end result seems to be "These weapons are ones you probably won't use because they needlessly cost a feat."
Death to EWP.
you cant make the repeating xbow a simple weapon, who would use a regular xbow?
essentially repeaters give away a free feat (limited to ammo) with the similarity to rapid reload.
never knew why hand xbow was so special..
I think a paladin or a barb knowing how to effectively use every martial and simple weapon ever in existence is stupid.
It should go back to weapon groups (maybe lesser and greater, so you need the lesser to get the greater of the same group type)
fighters should start with three groups, pallys/barbs/rangers 2 groups.
others 1 group...get more groups as you go up in level.
handing out "I know all weapons" was always a mistake.
Personally, I wouldn't extend the concept to all of those. . .Sorry all I know I'm going OT, but ever since that thread awhile back about combining and rebalancing feats, this has been on my mind.
I'm going to stay slightly off-topic with you, since the original post has been fully answered more than once and we're not derailing anything productive, and because I think a discussion of combining feats is still fairly on-topic for a discussion of "feat taxes". It's been on my mind for a while too.
First, I agree with you that Combat Expertise and Power Attack are annoying prerequisites that could easily be done away with. Power Attack is good enough in it's own right that it won't be forgotten, and Combat Expertise is bad enough that it was essentially a feat tax anyway. In both cases, the prereq is different enough from the maneuver to be obviously a game mechanic limitation rather than a simulationist limitation. Also, the idea that only people with greater than average intelligence can learn to effectively trip opponents, or that only people with greater than average strength can throw all their weight behind a single attack? Silly and obviously unrealistic.
As to making various feats scale with level rather than requiring multiple related feats, I'm a fan of the change in general. For example, I think having Skill Focus and the 2-skill feats double their benefit at 10 ranks was an outstanding choice. (I'd have them double again at 20 ranks, not that I'm likely to play at 20th much.)
I like to imagine feats as things a character is particularly good at. Many feats that are early parts of series become obsolete or insignificant if you don't continue to take the follow-ups. I'd rather have a shorter list of feats, each of which stays exciting as characters progress.
Similarly, I'd combine certain other feats that are less obviously series. Craft Wand, Craft Rod, and Craft Staff I would combine into a single feat, "Craft wands, rods, and staves". At 5th it would only let you make wands, but at 9th you could also make rods, and at 11th you could also make staves. Craft Wondrous Item should include rings, since it already includes all other clothing and jewelry, and constructs.
There are 340 feats the core book and APG alone, and many of them are rarely used while others are ubiquitous. My preference would be to see the number reduced somewhat, and the scalability increased.
As to making various feats scale with level rather than requiring multiple related feats, I'm a fan of the change in general.
You'd probably enjoy our houserules, then, if you haven't already seen them.
Most of the combat feats scale and/or synergize (see "Feats" document), and the problem of Exotic Weapon Proficiency solved (see "Weapons" document).
you cant make the repeating xbow a simple weapon, who would use a regular xbow?
Nobody, because they're still more terrible then any standard bow is.
Death to iterative attacks.
You'd probably enjoy our houserules, then, if you haven't already seen them.
Wow, I only spent ten minutes with them, but I love what I've seen so far!
EWP = Better
Finesse fighting = Better
Metamagic = Better