Ferryman's Toll
Gah!
*drops dead*
breath of life
Ah, well. I kinda was aware of that after all. I just hoper ( or better gambled) on the fact that most people ( especially gamers) are aware of the fact that a "Ferryman's Toll" might be something different from a fee for crossing a waterway. something linked to death, passage and burial rituals. I hoped that this connection would evoke a certain flair for the item, get the reader in the right "mood". Also a "Toll" implies that you gain something, but that you have to pay for it in the end (the item had a drawback).
But I knew it could be a problem, especially if the item was viewed in the wrong company. after all I wrote this, when I was reviewing all those items in the feedback thread.
One thing I noticed about naming your item. While some names might be great if standing for their own, they might get different implications when in the wrong company.My own item might be the perfect example for this:
the Ferryman's Toll
might be flavorful alone and gets one guessing about the implications of the item., but if it shows up in a great list of items:...
the Butchers Hook
the Watchmen's Whistle
the Ferryman's Toll
...you might get the wrong idea :)
But since I got feedback from the judges and it didn't include: "And your name was crappy too.", I don't think it was too much of an issue in this case.
Note that I'm not trying to defend my item, or making a point about how "Bad item names" are not necessarily bad.
I just thought that laying open my thought process on naming an item might be helpful and/or interesting for some people :).
You don't see the point in it, because you are still ignorant as to what the discussion was actually about. Now, before you respond, please take the time to read the points already made, or just leave the discussion behind. Plain and simple.
I'm only going to say this once.
Vistarius. Knock it off.
Turn the other cheek. Walk away. Take several deep breaths. And I recommend you think twice before hitting submit on any further posts. You're not doing yourself, nor anyone else, any favors with this type of response...no matter how right or unfairly besieged you feel.
And to everyone else. Stop drawing this out. This kind of discussion is not what RPG Superstar is about.
I'm going to see what sort of data-dump Ross and Gary can do with all the threads in the judges area, so I can just look up an item, see what I said before, and paste that, rather than having to re-analyze hundreds of entries (which is usually what causes my participation to fall off as later rounds' judging occurs...).
I think its awesomew that we will have the opportunity to see what the judges points of criticism and maybe complements are.
Will you/judges engage in (sober) discussion about the items in question?
Director of Brand Strategy
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But, again, just because they are not creative names, doesn't mean auto-reject. Sometimes a common name suits the item. As long as the item is Super Star quality, a name can be overlooked. But that was discussed in auto-reject rule #27: An awesome item may disregard the previous advice.
If you want to bank on rule #27, that's your prerogative, but I'd posit that an item with a boring name already has a knock against it regarding "being Superstar." Sure, the rest of the item could be mind-blowingly awesome, and perfectly executed in every way. If that's the case, why mar an otherwise perfect item with a boring name? Any contestant can enter an item with whatever name they want, but they do so knowing what we as judges are looking for. You make the rest of your job harder by purposely ignoring this advice (which, if one can pull it off, is a sign of Superstar potential). How each contestant balances taking advice and proving us wrong is a large part of the subjective aspect of judging the contest.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32
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If you want to bank on rule #27, that's your prerogative, but I'd posit that an item with a boring name already has a knock against it regarding "being Superstar." Sure, the rest of the item could be mind-blowingly awesome, and perfectly executed in every way. If that's the case, why mar an otherwise perfect item with a boring name? Any contestant can enter an item with whatever name they want, but they do so knowing what we as judges are looking for. You make the rest of your job harder by purposely ignoring this advice (which, if one can pull it off, is a sign of Superstar potential). How each contestant balances taking advice and proving us wrong is a large part of the subjective aspect of judging the contest.
I'm pretty sure naming my monster a crysalis in last year's Round 2 was a fatal blow right from the beginning I couldn't recover from. Don't *ever* name a rpg element after a real-world thing, even --or especially-- if you think it's a clever play on the word. And remember that the name (or the title of an adventure) is the first thing the reader will ever see, and a crappy name will immediately sour them on the entire piece.
Will you/judges engage in (sober) discussion about the items in question?
I suppose that depends on how many of us are driven to drink heavily following Round One. ;-)
Will you/judges engage in (sober) discussion about the items in question?
I suspect my participation is going to be limited to forwarding my original comments on the item; my responsibilities at work and for the rest of the contest won't leave me a lot of time to do any back-and-forth discussion about hundreds of items, especially as they'll all be nested in one thread....
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Yes, saw that. And when I clicked on "Images" on google, it showed me a bunch of pics with the caption "Tailor's needle". It's just a matter of doing a little digging.
I suspect if you Googled it now, the biggest hits for that term would be this here thread...
[EDIT] Hoho! Thread! I'm sew clever!
It seems I have an eye for a pun!
Yes, saw that. And when I clicked on "Images" on google, it showed me a bunch of pics with the caption "Tailor's needle". It's just a matter of doing a little digging.I suspect if you Googled it now, the biggest hits for that term would be this here thread...
Out of curiosity, I checked it out. The top hits are a book called The Tailor's Needle, and (in amusing irony) a magic item from Everquest.
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I'm pretty sure naming my monster a crysalis in last year's Round 2 was a fatal blow right from the beginning I couldn't recover from. Don't *ever* name a rpg element after a real-world thing, even --or especially-- if you think it's a clever play on the word.
I think the fact it's a real-world name isn't the issue; more that it suggests a creature that has gone to sleep and just sits there.
Doesn't strike fear into the hearts of players, like an active name, such as 'Raveningclaw Snarlbeast' or the like."Adjective-Noun Verb-Noun" seems to be all the rage with the kids of today, hence why it seems to have become the default naming convention for 4E...
Or the Cult of the ebon destroyers ;)I bet SKR gets tired of seeing, "---- of the ----"I sure as hell do.
That format is the MOST overused construction of all time for adventures, it seems. We make a VERY conscious effort to avoid building adventure titles like that today, and even then, we can't always avoid it entirely. (Witness the upcoming "Tomb of the Iron Medusa" or Kingmaker's "Sound of a Thousand Screams.)
Yup, pretty hard to get away from that convention really. Flipping it around to 'Ebon Destroyers Cult' makes it sound like the name-plaque on the noticeboard at the front entrance to a building also holding such conventions as 'Angst Dungeon Collaboration' and 'Devil Dragon Followers Anonymous'
...and Ebon Destroyers' Cult makes no sense either...
Will you/judges engage in (sober) discussion about the items in question?I suspect my participation is going to be limited to forwarding my original comments on the item; my responsibilities at work and for the rest of the contest won't leave me a lot of time to do any back-and-forth discussion about hundreds of items, especially as they'll all be nested in one thread....
This is probably too late for this year, but maybe next year the judges can surround the portions of comments that are ok to pass on to the participants with a special message board tag. Or even just a bold tag if that is good enough and avoids the programming time. So you can do that as you're judging to avoid the extra effort late. You could even make it the responsibility of the last judge to comment on the item to sanity check the comments designated for the submitter...
Then someone with more time than a judge can copy and paste as necessary... or do a query to automate it. Perhaps even add a "I want to see the judge's comments" checkbox when submitting that will automatically email the comments within the tag on the day after the winners are released.
Or the Cult of the ebon destroyers ;)
If you jump back to the 2010 SuperStar forum, you will see how much people didn't like the name. I really recommend you don't try 'something' of the 'something' for your adventure name this year.
It's about doing something new, something different, something innovative.
SKR says "Prove me wrong!"
I agree and also say, "Show me something I haven't seen before. Show me something I wouldn't have thought of myself."
This is probably too late for this year, but maybe next year the judges can surround the portions of comments that are ok to pass on to the participants with a special message board tag. Or even just a bold tag if that is good enough and avoids the programming time. So you can do that as you're judging to avoid the extra effort late. You could even make it the responsibility of the last judge to comment on the item to sanity check the comments designated for the submitter...
Then someone with more time than a judge can copy and paste as necessary... or do a query to automate it. Perhaps even add a "I want to see the judge's comments" checkbox when submitting that will automatically email the comments within the tag on the day after the winners are released.
It's really just easier to C&P *if* someone ask for feedback, rather than formatting hundreds of items just in case someone *might* ask for feedback.
I have a question about the item price range. Is there an ideal price range or is there a really no roof as long as it is an appropriate price and has good content? My item ended up being high end on price and I was wandering about that.
And to everyone else. Stop drawing this out. This kind of discussion is not what RPG Superstar is about.
I apologize, didn't mean to draw that out and insult anyone.
speed66,
I think there is a 200,000 gp market price cap (not sure it's official, or not), else you're treading on minor artifact territory.
Also, the more affordable... the more attainable (by PCs) and the more legs it has in the game in general.
I don't mean to say less expensive is better, just an observation.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32
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I think the fact it's a real-world name isn't the issue; more that it suggests a creature that has gone to sleep and just sits there.
Doesn't strike fear into the hearts of players, like an active name, such as 'Raveningclaw Snarlbeast' or the like.
"Adjective-Noun Verb-Noun" seems to be all the rage with the kids of today, hence why it seems to have become the default naming convention for 4E...
Haha also a good point. I just remember that every comment about my entry last year brought up the name right away. It was brutal. :)
I think I remember an entry getting docked for a 4e type of name in one of the past years (I think it was one of the monsters in 2008). So I'd personally caution against using that type of naming convention. A BrineSpirit RagePriest might be cool enough for 4e, but it doesn't seem to translate well for Pathfinder.
Edit: here's one quote. . . not sure it's the only one.
And bloodbound decriers? Sounds like a super-cheesy Magic card. Not winning any points on naming here.
speed66,
I think there is a 200,000 gp market price cap (not sure it's official, or not), else you're treading on minor artifact territory.
Also, the more affordable... the more attainable (by PCs) and the more legs it has in the game in general.
I don't mean to say less expensive is better, just an observation.
Good deal, I kept mine in the neighborhood of 200,000. I was intending for the item to be a high level item anyway, so it worked out.
You just repeated what has already been said over and over again. You're missing the point. SKR didn't say "I'd give it a fair chance, regardless of the name" or "Even with a bad name an item can be superstar" he said "I'd probably be inclined to bump it based on the name". Which basically goes against the whole "prove me wrong" thing, because he's admitting that he's going to have a bias against it from the beginning.
I think this is all going a bit far.
Things get a bit tense when waiting for results, and we often have these kinds of threads.
Just look at it like this: a boring name is not an auto-reject but it is the first thing we read as judges and it puts us in a frame of mind when we review the item. A good name gets "oh boy, can't wait to see what this does," and a boring one gets, "hmph, not sure about this one...".
Really the advice is this--give your item a good name. It helps. And a bad or boring one hurts. And some can be so bad that we barely want to read any further.
Let's not make more of it than that.
And, having judged with Sean, I can absolutely guarantee everyone that he gives every item a fair shot. On the boards he seems like Simon and I'm Paula, but in the Judges' Chambers, I was a-hole, believe me. My posts had to be edited more than anyone. :)
Needle of the Tailor, or Tailor's Needle, or whatever this hypothetical name is, very likely falls into one of three categories:
- The item does exactly what it sounds like, which is lame, and based on a real world item too directly.
- The name is a total disconnect from the object, which is cute, but not gonna make top 32.
- Or the item somehow manages to be both a tailor's needle and more than a tailor's needle, without just feeling like a tailor's needle +1, which is a bold and daring endeavor.
SKR mentioned at the end of the list of autoreject advice that sufficient application of awesomeness can overcome any non-DQ pitfall, but if its a choice between awesome with an enticing name, and awesome despite a lamesauce name, guess which one makes top 32, and which is only top 33?
Candidly, "tailor's needle" or "needle of the tailor" is not that horrid of a name. Its not good; its not autoreject. Its "meh." And "meh" isn't superstar.
All anyone is saying is just to keep that in mind--"meh" isn't superstar. And if you want to be a superstar, "meh" might not be good enough.
But again, name is only one factor. If a "meh" named item is otherwise cool, it will likely make the cut. At least that is how I voted in the past. And, looking back, we have kept some "meh" names in the top 32. More often than not, we don't. But its not an absolute reject for an item.
One problem is that these threads are very helpful guidance, that people want to turn into hard and fast rules. There are really only a few auto-rejects--over wordcount, copyright infringement, inappropriate content, etc. All the other stuff are just really strong suggestions from the judges, which we could simply never tell anyone about and reject people for but we have decided to be open and transparent about the process.
I'd encourage feelings to be calmed and not hurt, let the discussion reset and resume its original course. This is a great community, and discussion is valued. And the community has shown a clear pattern of being able to handle discussions that can be considered personal critiques and, and Neil points out, very few people can do that yet we have a community here that is very accepting of those discussions. So lets just chalk this up to spirited debate and move on.
I'll use American Idol as an example:
Can anyone picture Simon OR Randy as an American Idol winner?
Probably NotYet without Simon that show would have been a joke.
My point is that there can only be one Superstar each year. Now sure, any of the developers that judge the Superstar competition could probably rock the competition, but they've probably also made completely mundane things for the system.
By the way, I have said every year that I don't think I could have won the competition. So, yes, the Superstar designers that are chosen are, in my view, better designers than I am.
Clark
I actually don't think anyone besides Neil has understood what I have said.
Really? Come on now...
Sorry, couldn't pass on that one. :)
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I'll use American Idol as an example:
Can anyone picture Simon OR Randy as an American Idol winner?
Probably NotYet without Simon that show would have been a joke.
My point is that there can only be one Superstar each year. Now sure, any of the developers that judge the Superstar competition could probably rock the competition, but they've probably also made completely mundane things for the system.
By the way, I have said every year that I don't think I could have won the competition. So, yes, the Superstar designers that are chosen are, in my view, better designers than I am.
Clark
Along that same line. You don't have to know how to do something great to be able to judge if it's great. As I have been working on putting together the list of previous years winners I would read the occasional judges comments on things and would see things like "Wow. Something so simple. Why hasn't this been done before?" So, they don't have to be able to craft a wonderful item, just have the chops to notice great work.
Examples of items from last year's competition that fit into this "item is a real-world item" problem. I'm not saying this is WHY that item was rejected (I'm just skimming the titles), I'm just giving examples:
Memory String
Ferryman's Toll
Bag of Dust
Magician's Hat
Watchmen's Whistle
Traveler's Wagon
Shiny Bauble
Cat's Paw
Gentleman's Cape
Voluminous Cloak
Double Door
Eye of Newt
And many of those items are just fine. Not great, perhaps. I happen to think a few are even good (memory string, ferryman's toll). But there is probably a BETTER more SUPERSTAR name for each of them, and that was a chance missed.
And to everyone else. Stop drawing this out.
Oops. Sorry :)
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I think I remember an entry getting docked for a 4e type of name in one of the past years (I think it was one of the monsters in 2008). So I'd personally caution against using that type of naming convention.
Edit: here's one quote. . . not sure it's the only one.
** spoiler omitted **
Haha. That's exactly the type of reaction I was thinking of.
Though I was thinking Yu-Gi-Oh.If you can imagine a pink-haired freak screaming its name, with go-faster stripes whizzing by, whilst playing glorified Top Trumps, then you've probably lost the plot.
"You think you have bested me?!?!? See how I laugh! Ha! Ha! You are a fool, walking straight into my trap! Your Nine-Tailed Fox Spirit's Lightning Ricochet Volley has only healed my creature! Now feel the power of the Sprocket-Nosed Giblet-Juggler, as it reflects your attack back as Twin Streaming Bladder Beams, with the
That pulpy, gooey, red splattered mass is still being beaten with splinters. Slaps forehead with palm, can we let it die......Please I Beg Of You All!!!!
And to everyone else. Stop drawing this out.Oops. Sorry :)
Pure comedy gold. :D
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I have a question about the item price range. Is there an ideal price range or is there a really no roof as long as it is an appropriate price and has good content? My item ended up being high end on price and I was wandering about that.
A lot of the expensive items fall under the Swiss Army Knife trap, as the creator bolts on more and more effects.
If it avoids that, being high priced whilst doing one thing very well, then that one thing is likely a very high-level thing that a GM dreads the PCs getting hold of.
So, if it does ever appear in game, it's as an NPC-only device, with the implication "The BBEG can use it, but don't you dare attempt to keep it!" In which case, it probably falls under the 'Item is Not an Item, but a Plot Device' category.
That's a flaw in my 2008 entry, the Chelaxian Oubliette (which for some reason, shows as post 917 of 538 in the Feedback thread...) 0_o?
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32
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Haha. That's exactly the type of reaction I was thinking of.
Though I was thinking Yu-Gi-Oh.
If you can imagine a pink-haired freak screaming its name, with go-faster stripes whizzing by, whilst playing glorified Top Trumps, then you've probably lost the plot.
haha
Personally, I think naming can tricky.
You want it to be simple, and real-sounding. But you really don't want it to sound like a real-world item or sound like something boring.
On the other hand you don't want it too gygaxian, or too anime/magic the gathering, or just downright ridiculous. Or unpronounceable.
Some people hate latinate names, so you need to be careful about that. And watch out for making it too contrived, like something named like a game element, instead of what people in the campaign world would really name it.
Proper names can run you into IP issues, or cause issues with the CD of the campaign setting, or just confuse the reader. And some words just end up being over-used, and even the classic formulas, like "X of the Y," get old for some people.
Oops. Sorry :)
It's just like a demon lord to stir up trouble when things finally die down...
Don't make me bring a bunch of holy fury down on you, Orcus. Or banish you back to the Abyss... ;-)
Or banish you back to the Abyss... ;-)
Have you driven through parts of Idaho? He's already there...
Or banish you back to the Abyss... ;-)
Have you driven through parts of Idaho? He's already there...
And he lives in one of the glorious parts. Those of us down south suffer a bit more.
And he lives in one of the glorious parts. Those of us down south suffer a bit more.
Hi-five to fellow southern Idahoan...unless you're from those weird really, really southern cities. If so, lo-five for you, that place is barren.
And he lives in one of the glorious parts. Those of us down south suffer a bit more.Hi-five to fellow southern Idahoan...unless you're from those weird really, really southern cities. If so, lo-five for you.
Haha, I'm from Boise, though I lived in Moscow for a while.
Same here.
Hey wait a minute....are you me posting from my computer whenever I black out?
Same here.
Hey wait a minute....are you me posting from my computer whenever I black out?
I hope not, that would be rather disconcerting.
Coeur d'Alene, baby!
I can see my courthouse in this picture.
http://www.coeurdalene.org/content/photogallery/large/Aerial_CruiseBoat.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coeur_d'Alene,_Idaho
Coeur d'Alene, baby!
I can see my courthouse in this picture.
http://www.coeurdalene.org/content/photogallery/large/Aerial_CruiseBoat.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coeur_d'Alene,_Idaho
I really need to get up there sometime. I have friends in CdA I haven't seen in years.
Coeur d'Alene, baby!
I can see my courthouse in this picture.
linked
Oops. Sorry :)It's just like a demon lord to stir up trouble when things finally die down...
Don't make me bring a bunch of holy fury down on you, Orcus. Or banish you back to the Abyss... ;-)
Dammit, sounds like Clark has found the Giant Wooden Spoon of Wind-Up again :P
If an item is booted for technical reasons such as word count or format can you reenter it in the next superstar when it is polished up?
If you changed enough to make it anonymous again, maybe? I would really avoid doing this. Especially since there would be an entire year to think of something new.
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If you changed enough to make it anonymous again, maybe? I would really avoid doing this. Especially since there would be an entire year to think of something new.
Well, isn't the first judging round anonymous? Any entries that were not part of the 32 the original judges would not know who submitted unless you went on the boards and said such. So, if you didn't say anything and polished up your item, you should have no problems re-entering it next year. The only thing that would happen would be a line from the judge like "Oh. I remember this from last year. Let's see if they improved it any."
If you changed enough to make it anonymous again, maybe? I would really avoid doing this. Especially since there would be an entire year to think of something new.
Good point, if it is rejected I could always use it for further inspiration. Maybe they will have another competition in between this Superstar and the next. I enjoy the challenge of the contest.