Concerning interactions with Prestige Classes

[Davick]

As someone who generally favors entering prestige classes, I'm curious as to how some magus abilities work with them.

I feel that at a minimum, his number of pool points should increase based on magus caster level as opposed to magus level alone. As in, if a magus were to take 3 levels of Eldritch Knight, he would gain a point due to gaining 2 caster levels from the prestige class.

I also believe the ability to enhance his weapon should get the same boost at the appropriate caster level. If someone were to have 5 levels of fighter and 2 levels of magus, and entered Arcane Archer they should gain the ability to add nonnumerical enhancements to their bow upon reaching 5th level caster.

That's just what Ive been thinking off the top of my head.

Any thoughts?

[Kolokotroni]

I am pretty sure rules as written this wont happen. Most class specific abilities dont do this. Paladins dont gain smite damage if they prestige, bards dont gain more rounds of songs, so why would pool points increase or the weapon enhancement increase? Then you are getting more from the prestige class then you are supposed to. The whole point of a prestige class is you are forgoing advancement in your normal class for what the prestige class gives. Try to have your cake and eat it too and you send balance straight out the window.

[Matrixryu]

Kolokotroni wrote:

I am pretty sure rules as written this wont happen. Most class specific abilities dont do this. Paladins dont gain smite damage if they prestige, bards dont gain more rounds of songs, so why would pool points increase or the weapon enhancement increase? Then you are getting more from the prestige class then you are supposed to. The whole point of a prestige class is you are forgoing advancement in your normal class for what the prestige class gives. Try to have your cake and eat it too and you send balance straight out the window.

The problem with this is that caster prestige classes end up only being worthwhile for full casters. Other classes which have limited casting (such as the summoner, paladin, ranger, inquisitor...) end up losing abilities in the long run because they get less from a casting prestige class. I would think it would be more balanced if classes with less spellcasting continued to gain some of their standard class abilities from caster prestige classes.

Of course, with the rules as written, this will never happen.

[james maissen]

Matrixryu wrote:

The problem with this is that caster prestige classes end up only being worthwhile for full casters. Other classes which have limited casting (such as the summoner, paladin, ranger, inquisitor...) end up losing abilities in the long run because they get less from a casting prestige class. I would think it would be more balanced if classes with less spellcasting continued to gain some of their standard class abilities from caster prestige classes.

Of course, with the rules as written, this will never happen.

This is what I mean when I say classes like the summoner were not made 'multiclassing friendly'.

Things like their summon monster ability should certainly be tied to one form of their caster level (i.e. the level at which they determine spell slots, to separate it from the casting level of individual spells).

-James

[Kolokotroni]

Matrixryu wrote:

Kolokotroni wrote:

I am pretty sure rules as written this wont happen. Most class specific abilities dont do this. Paladins dont gain smite damage if they prestige, bards dont gain more rounds of songs, so why would pool points increase or the weapon enhancement increase? Then you are getting more from the prestige class then you are supposed to. The whole point of a prestige class is you are forgoing advancement in your normal class for what the prestige class gives. Try to have your cake and eat it too and you send balance straight out the window.

The problem with this is that caster prestige classes end up only being worthwhile for full casters. Other classes which have limited casting (such as the summoner, paladin, ranger, inquisitor...) end up losing abilities in the long run because they get less from a casting prestige class. I would think it would be more balanced if classes with less spellcasting continued to gain some of their standard class abilities from caster prestige classes.

Of course, with the rules as written, this will never happen.

Prestige classes for full casters arent the ones that should be taken by half casters or non casters. Prestige classes have to be designed with a certain character type in mind, because they are a specialization of that class' existing abilities.

So rather then a general change to the magus abilities that opens huge doors for imbalance, prestige classes that work with the magus should be created.

For instance, the holy vindicator is designed to work with the channel energy class feature. The class expects to increase channel energy and is balanced accordingly.

The dragon disciple is designed with the dragon bloodline abilities in mind, and is balanced accordingly.

Eldritch knight is NOT made with magus abilities in mind, and thus shouldnt provide progression in them.

One of paizo's goals was to make 1-20 base classes more attractive then the 3.5 days when it was really a matter of which prestige class you were going to take and how soon you could take it. That means that in pathfinder at least, in order to prestige, you give something up in exchange for what the prc class gives you. If you start adding base class abilities on top of that we'll end up right back where we were with 3.5.

[james maissen]

Kolokotroni wrote:

Prestige classes for full casters arent the ones that should be taken by half casters or non casters. Prestige classes have to be designed with a certain character type in mind, because they are a specialization of that class' existing abilities.

This I disagree with.. if it's meant this way then it should be a class variant and not a PrC.

-James

[Blueluck]

If prestige classes in general increased the effectiveness of class abilities, then taking multiple base classes followed by a prestige class would be incredibly good - too good. A prestige class has to be balanced, so ones that increase a particular ability specifically state that, like the Arcane Trickster with Sneak Attack.

Magus could have prestige classes appropriate for it, just like Alchemist has Master Chymist.

[Matthew Morris]

Actually, I don't think the pool should increase. Look at the two extremes.

Eldrich knightL Gain BAB additonal virtual fighter levels, HD, lose some spell casting.

Loremaster, gain full casting, class abilities. Lose HD, BAB.

Both gain and lose something. You want full pool? Stay a Magus.

[Davick]

Blueluck wrote:

If prestige classes in general increased the effectiveness of class abilities, then taking multiple base classes followed by a prestige class would be incredibly good - too good. A prestige class has to be balanced, so ones that increase a particular ability specifically state that, like the Arcane Trickster with Sneak Attack.

Magus could have prestige classes appropriate for it, just like Alchemist has Master Chymist.

Hmm, this seems like a pretty good point I hadn't thought of. But by tying it to caster level avoids some of that complication. Because when you choose a prestige class you pick where that increase in caster level goes. You couldn't increase a magus' pool and your paladin's smite for example, assuming both were options.

@Matthew Morris
I agree to an extent with your point as well, but it's not like the magus would necessarily gain the additional abilities of the spell pool, just more points to use the ones he has. And if he takes a PrC that doesn't give full casting he gains them at less than 1/2 levels, and everyone seems to agree that the resource is scarce to begin with. Perhaps a "practiced spellcaster" type feat could be made to assist with keeping the pool up when prestige classing...

I agree that it seems like bonus above what another class would get from taking a PrC but the pool seems so tied to the magus' spellcasting that it's odd to think he could increase it separately from the pool. And it seems almost like without the pool he would quickly fall behind a full caster in the same PrC.

[Pendagast]

A two weapon dex fighter and a two weapon ranger, may appear very similar, but they are different.

a 1 ftr/5 wiz/3 ek and a 9th lvl magus can appear to be very similar but are infact quite different as well.

That being said, EK isnt really a good fit for magus. EK adds limited access to fighter feats, spell progression, and full bab progress and spell crit (pretty close to spellstrike) none of which is worth giving up full progress in magus.

[Mnemaxa]

The real purpose behind Eldritch Knight is to add versatility. A Magus is designed to combine two completely separate capabilities and utilize them at the same time.

As an example, the ideal Edritch Knight is a Transmuter Wizard, melee combat-based Sorcerer (Abyssal is the prime example), or other hands on combat style caster. Since you only need a single level in fighter, you don't lose your high level spells, and you actually have some skill with those claws and talons you'll be using in combat. You sacrifice your bloodline and bonus feats for the sake of being an effective melee combatant, but both of those actually CAN be melee casters well. Your spells will be buffs and augmentation to yourself more often than not, though you'll have the capacity for battlefield control as well; the player is going to want to get hands on and mess people up directly though, otherwise he would be playing something else.

A Magus, on the other hand is designed to augment his damage through magic directly and immediately, rather than prep buffs and lower enemy resilience from a distance. You can do those things, just as an Eldritch Knight can control a battlefield effectively without engaging in melee, but that's not really what he's designed or the player wants to do. The Magus is the class that can do warfare and spells at the same time - combining them instead of choosing one or the other.

As far as prestige classes go, the Magus would probably want a prestige class that focuses on more powerful arcana, a larger spell pool which can be used for different things, or infusing his power into his armor and weapons more effectively (or perhaps using magic to make them himself, a sort of arcane soul knife prestige class?).