Hey, first time posting here, i'm dming a game soonish for the first time and there was something that was bugging me about crossbow damage, why do crossbows deal less damage in the hands of smaller people.
I mean if they're the same size shouldn't it just deal the same damage?
With bows and melee weapons it makes sense, but crossbows?
So if someone could explain that, i'd appreciate it.
A crossbow does damage based on the size of the weapon itself. A crossbow that is sized for a halfling is indeed smaller. The bolts are also smaller. Therefore the impact of the bolt will be lesser than that of a crossbow of the same type wielded by a human. This applies to all weapons.
This makes me wonder why can't there be a crossbow rated like composite bows? You just have to have a minimum strength to use them based on the pull. Or does heavyy crossbow account for that?
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This makes me wonder why can't there be a crossbow rated like composite bows? You just have to have a minimum strength to use them based on the pull. Or does heavyy crossbow account for that?
Generally crossbows aren't pulled back by hand. They usually have a lever or a crank to pull the string back, which is why heavy crossbows take a full round action to load. Check out the picture of the ranger on page 65 of the CRB. It clearly shows the cranking mechanism for loading the crossbow.
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Crossbows come in a wide variety of pull strengths.
Many are cocked by hand, with a foot-stirrup, without the need for a cranquin. My Panzer II is 150 lb pull, which exceeds and bow that you will find on the market today, just to clear that up.It will shoot through the tailgate of a truck, both layers. Now, some gamer will undoubtedly pull some info out about some 500 pound pull crossbow from this or that army (We all do it), but the point is, one can have an incredibly powerful crossbow that requires nothing more than a foot stirrup (My cousin, when we were 16, would just butt it to his chest and pull it back by hand...nice bruises, that gave).
D&D has long given the crossbow the short shaft (Pun intended).
3.+ gave it a little more love, with the bigger die and better crits, but it still suffers from the lack of damage based on Strength.
Smaller characters will use smaller crossbows, but a Gnome with an 16 Str should be able to use a very powerful crossbow...
-Uriel
A crossbow is mechanical. Once you've built it, it winches back with the ability to exert a certain amount of power with each shot. It's set at the time of creation. Your strength is irrelevant, because the weapon's construction is such that you can only build it with so much strain due to the winch; more will cause the string to break, the bow to break, etc. Your limit is the materials and design of the weapon. If you want a crossbow to do more damage, you need a bigger weapon that can handle the structural strain. Remember that it doesn't matter if my Strength 8 cleric or a Strength 22 barbarian is cranking the winch; it's the machine that's "doing" the work and materials that are taking the strain.
That doesn't sound quite right, but I think you've got the idea.
Crossbows come in a wide variety of pull strengths.
Many are cocked by hand, with a foot-stirrup, without the need for a cranquin. My Panzer II is 150 lb pull, which exceeds and bow that you will find on the market today, just to clear that up.It will shoot through the tailgate of a truck, both layers. Now, some gamer will undoubtedly pull some info out about some 500 pound pull crossbow from this or that army (We all do it), but the point is, one can have an incredibly powerful crossbow that requires nothing more than a foot stirrup (My cousin, when we were 16, would just butt it to his chest and pull it back by hand...nice bruises, that gave).D&D has long given the crossbow the short shaft (Pun intended).
3.+ gave it a little more love, with the bigger die and better crits, but it still suffers from the lack of damage based on Strength.
Smaller characters will use smaller crossbows, but a Gnome with an 16 Str should be able to use a very powerful crossbow...-Uriel
That's interesting to know. Thanks Uriel! My understanding is improved.
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One more thing as someone who builds historical crossbows, a bow and crossbows effectively are the same thing. but are built to be a particular poundage at a particular draw. If I have a 45 lb bow built for a 26 inch draw it can be pulled to 30 inch but it might shatter and pulling any farther than that it will likely shatter. but until it shatters it will be stronger.
when making crossbows we have to find the right strength prod/bow to mount for the distance we plan on placing the "firing pin" at.
Cant tell you how many of these we have shattered trying to get the most bang for the buck.
To be honest heavy crossbows should have a strength requirement.
They do take more strength, and the heavier they are the more strength they take. It's right there in the RAW.
It's indirect, but it's reflected rather plainly. It is in the "time" it takes to "reload". That time generally gets longer as the "relative" size of the crossbow increases.
Because of the "mechanism", the actual pully ratio is static. Imagine 5 cranks is 5 cranks, 10 is 10. It doesn't matter how strong you are... it takes 10 cranks or a full round action.
Once you start fiddling with a stronger character can crank faster... then he can swing faster then, etc, etc... back to weapon speed from 1st ed.
Also, a heavy crossbow does an avg of longbow +1 dmg. Not too shabby.
I have a Strength 7 Wizard doing 1d8 on the regular. If I ever get Focused Shot... 1d8+5 (INT Bonus).
Just a thought.
I see what you are all saying, and thank you for the replies, but if the half-ling in the group gets the light crossbow she could fire it reload it and then pass it on to the elven ranger, who will then do extra damage.
It just seems wrong.
It doesn't work that way bob. The crossbow is a small sized crossbow. The ranger would actually take a penalty for trying to shoot it because it doesn't fit his hands. And it would deal the same damage as before (unless the ranger had archery feats/favored enemy at play.)I see what you are all saying, and thank you for the replies, but if the half-ling in the group gets the light crossbow she could fire it reload it and then pass it on to the elven ranger, who will then do extra damage.
It just seems wrong.
That would make sense, silly me.
Thank you.
Also, please consider a Light Crossbow (M sized for Humans) would be considered a Heavy Crossbow (purposes of proficiency, reloading, etc...) to an "S" sized creature such as said Halfling.
This is probably all wrong from the science but i would suggest a static damage bonus for crossbows based on what it's made of
Wood +0
Darkwood +1
Steel(Masterwork) +2
Mithril +3
Adamantite +4
I can't help but think that a steel bowed crossbow would be "stronger" than a mass produced wooden one and one made from fantastic matierials should it.
I hate crossbows in the game because they are over simplified.
They should be rated for STR. something like Medium:1d6+STR Small:1d4+STR
But the STR would be the crossbows STR.
If you have less than the crossbows STR you need a crank or lever action, since you can use your entire body to pull it back with your feet, you should be able to do Character
STR with a simple lever (fastest)
STR+2 with just a foot pull+lever.
STR+4 with a crank.
STR>+4 with crank + extra actions (1 action/STR under)
So a character with a 10 STR would be able to use 10/12/14STR crossbows.
A Character with an 18STR would be able to use 18/20/22 STR crossbows.
The cost/weight of the crossbow would obviously go up with each bonus level.
They do take more strength, and the heavier they are the more strength they take. It's right there in the RAW.
It's indirect, but it's reflected rather plainly. It is in the "time" it takes to "reload". That time generally gets longer as the "relative" size of the crossbow increases.
Except that is not actually related to the character's strength. A strength 1 character can use a heavy crossbow just as well as a strength 40 character. (Assuming the crossbow does not encumber him.)
In fact, my huge storm giant, who has been strength drained to 1, will still do more damage than your strength 30 halfling.
I like Xaaon's suggestion. If you are strong enough, you can do something simple to draw the bow. As you become weaker (relative to the rating of the bow), the drawing process becomes more complicated and slower. The above halfling could easily outdamage the giant (and do it quicker).
I think Rapid Reload would drop the reload time by two steps. That would take a full round action down to a move action. That would mean that you could draw a crossbow with a strength rating one above your strength as a free action.
In that case, you could, with a simple weapon and one feat, have better damage than someone using a bow. Arguably, you also need a feat (martial weapon proficiency) to use the bow, but I think the best crossbow builds will be with classes that get martial weapon proficiency for free, at which point a feat for +1 damage seems less than overpowered.
Let's focus on a core mechanic:
STR enhanced Crossbows, much like Composite Bows.
Light Crossbows can get +1 or +2
Heavy Crossbows can get +1, +2, +3 or +4
If you do not have the appropriate Strength, for each bonus point you are lacking... reload is increased one "level".
Have to keep it simple, workable and extensible. It has to as much as possible fit into the core rules.
House rules of course can be whatever one wishes.
Happy Holidays!
I am thinking of making the heavy crossbow have a strength mechanic with a max of 5. I might also allow rapid reload to apply to them. That way crossbows are worth taking, but longbows are still the top ranged weapon.
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I hate crossbows in the game because they are over simplified.
They should be rated for STR. something like Medium:1d6+STR Small:1d4+STR
But the STR would be the crossbows STR.If you have less than the crossbows STR you need a crank or lever action, since you can use your entire body to pull it back with your feet, you should be able to do Character
STR with a simple lever (fastest)
STR+2 with just a foot pull+lever.
STR+4 with a crank.
STR>+4 with crank + extra actions (1 action/STR under)So a character with a 10 STR would be able to use 10/12/14STR crossbows.
A Character with an 18STR would be able to use 18/20/22 STR crossbows.
The cost/weight of the crossbow would obviously go up with each bonus level.
I would say hand pull would be just STR, the move all the rest down one row.
Also, please consider a Light Crossbow (M sized for Humans) would be considered a Heavy Crossbow (purposes of proficiency, reloading, etc...) to an "S" sized creature such as said Halfling.
This is not correct. It's a very common house rule, and it stems from an official 3.0 rule, but it is not true in either 3.5 or in Pathfinder.
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If you are looking for a way of mechanically "fixing" crossbows to reflect the strength needed to draw them why don't you simply drag and drop the rules for composite bows onto the crossbow?
It roughly equates to the same thing and since it is house-rules you can flavor it with any kind of fluff you please.