Hello, everyone
Had this come up in my game the other day and couldn't find a suitable answer on Google, so I'm here.
School evocation [force]
spell Tiny Hut creates unmoving, opaque sphere of force
Can I assume that Incorporeal creatures can't enter it ?
Tiny Hut:
Tiny Hut
School evocation [force]; Level bard 3, sorcerer/wizard 3
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a small crystal bead)
EFFECT
Range 20 ft.
Effect 20-ft.-radius sphere centered on your location
Duration 2 hours/level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
DESCRIPTION
You create an unmoving, opaque sphere of force of any color you desire around yourself. Half the sphere projects above the ground, and the lower hemisphere passes through the ground. As many as nine other Medium creatures can fit into the field with you; they can freely pass into and out of the hut without harming it. However, if you remove yourself from the hut, the spell ends.
The temperature inside the hut is 70° F if the exterior temperature is between 0° and 100° F. An exterior temperature below 0° or above 100° lowers or raises the interior temperature on a 1-degree-for-1 basis. The hut also provides protection against the elements, such as rain, dust, and sandstorms. The hut withstands any wind of less than hurricane force, but a hurricane (75+ mph wind speed) or greater force destroys it.
The interior of the hut is a hemisphere. You can illuminate it dimly upon command or extinguish the light as desired. Although the force field is opaque from the outside, it is transparent from within. Missiles, weapons, and most spell effects can pass through the hut without affecting it, although the occupants cannot be seen from outside the hut (they have total concealment).
from universal monster rules :
Incorporeal:
An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it takes only half damage from a corporeal source (except for channel energy). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead. Corporeal spells and effects that do not cause damage only have a 50% chance of affecting an incorporeal creature. Force spells and effects, such as from a magic missile, affect an incorporeal creature normally.
An incorporeal creature has no natural armor bonus but has a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma bonus (always at least +1, even if the creature’s Charisma score does not normally provide a bonus).
An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see beyond the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect.
An incorporeal creature’s attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it. Incorporeal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air. Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage. Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions. Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight.
It's dubious. The force comprising a Tiny Hut seems a lot less solid than a Wall of Force; ordinary creatures can just walk in and out of the Tiny Hut.
I don't believe the intent of Tiny Hut is to keep out incorporeal creatures; that'd probably be a higher-level effect like Anti-Incorporeal Shell.
I believe what they were thinking about in the incorporeal description is "the ghost can go through a wall of stone but not a wall of force". The idea is that a wall of force is solid on more layers of reality than a stone wall. But that doesn't hold for a Tiny Hut, which is really just meant as a convenient shelter against bad weather.
If it DID block incorporeal creatures and objects then we'd need to know the hardness and HPs of the barrier. These not being provided, along with the text about creatures being able to pass freely through the barrier, suggests that it would not impact incorporeal creatures.
I think of it as similar to the selective walls created by a Cube of Force... in this case it only keeps out weather effects.
Incorporeal creatures cannot pass through force effects and Tiny Hut is a force effect. How the spell affects physical creatures and objects does not seem relevant.
Therefore, I do think Tiny hut blocks incorporeal creatures (Tiny hut extends into the ground, preventing the incorporeal creature to bypass the edge of the "hemisphere" by going into the ground).
I would think "specific trumps general" applies here. The spell is more specific. It says how it interacts with creatures, and makes no exceptions for incorporeal creatures.
A ghost or whatever would interact with it as any other creature would. Incorporeality gives the ability to pass through solid objects, but not force effects. Fine. But no special ability is needed in this case, the spell gives that ability already.
Amusingly, your friends could try and enter the hut but find they don't fit because 7 chilly ethereal travelers are toasting their good fortune across the veil.
Incorporeal creatures cannot pass through force effects and Tiny Hut is a force effect. How the spell affects physical creatures and objects does not seem relevant.
Therefore, I do think Tiny hut blocks incorporeal creatures (Tiny hut extends into the ground, preventing the incorporeal creature to bypass the edge of the "hemisphere" by going into the ground).
Anyway, FAQ'ed.
Any creature can pass through a Tiny Hut, the spell makes NO exceptions. and it's certainly beyond the intended power level to make it a barrier against some of the more powerful creatures in the Bestiary.
I would think "specific trumps general" applies here. The spell is more specific. It says how it interacts with creatures, and makes no exceptions for incorporeal creatures.
Even if the "specific trumps general" rule was anywhere in the CRB, how can you define that "a spell description is more specific than a creature's special quality"?
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
it's certainly beyond the intended power level to make it a barrier against some of the [...] creatures in the Bestiary
I refuse to make any assumption regarding the thoughts of the author when he wrote the description of the spell. I am interested in what the spell actually does instead of what it is supposed to do.
Don't get me wrong: I understand your position. I just don't buy it and I have no interest in argument. That's why I FAQ'ed the OP.
Incorporeal creatures cannot pass through force effects and Tiny Hut is a force effect.
Corporeal creatures cannot pass through force effects and Tiny Hut is a force effect.
Tiny Hut says that creatures CAN pass through it. If that does not apply to incorporeal creatures then, by the same 'logic', it would not apply to corporeal creatures either.
Even if the "specific trumps general" rule was anywhere in the CRB, how can you define that "a spell description is more specific than a creature's special quality"?
Rules do not function without it. Far too many cases where it just gets goofy to take an argument against it as genuine.
Incorporeal is a subtype of creature, Tiny Hut is a specific spell. Many vs 1. Spell description is more specific. You will note that spells regularly let you do things that are against more general rules...
I do not think an faq is likely. You are essentially arguing that a human wearing a ring of sustenance starves to death because humanoid creatures need to eat.
The incorporeal rule is clarifying that the "pass through solid objects" ability that it provides does not extend to force effects. It is not saying that no other effect can allow them to do so under any circumstances.
A creature that cannot be flanked does not suddenly lose that ability against rogues should they gain improved uncanny dodge, etc.
Corporeal creatures cannot pass through force effects and Tiny Hut is a force effect.
Could you cite the rule, share you source?
I do not want to be rude or trolling. I just want to point out that a standard force effect is not necessarily a impenetrable barrier (which you seem to assume), and Tiny hut is not necessarily a deviation from the standard.
I really think the question of the OP deserves a FAQ and I can see the answer going both ways.
Spoiler:
Tiny Hut is already an underused camping spell, because Rope Trick is a better shelter at a lower level. Tiny Hut is essentially a battlefield spell which provides with one-way total concealment for the entire group. The spell is already not used as intended.
Corporeal creatures cannot pass through force effects and Tiny Hut is a force effect.
Could you cite the rule, share you source?
I do not want to be rude or trolling. I just want to point out that a standard force effect is not necessarily a impenetrable barrier (which you seem to assume), and Tiny hut is not necessarily a deviation from the standard.
I really think the question of the OP deserves a FAQ and I can see the answer going both ways.
** spoiler omitted **
Can you cite the rule that says corporeal creatures cannot pass through stone walls?
Here, let me try something else. Let us stop looking at the paragraph that is completly dedicated to giving the rules for incorporeal creatures ability to pass through solid objects.
This is a spell, lets read the part where it talks about how they are affected by spells.
[sblock]An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it takes only half damage from a corporeal source (except for channel energy). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead. Corporeal spells and effects that do not cause damage only have a 50% chance of affecting an incorporeal creature. Force spells and effects, such as from a magic missile, affect an incorporeal creature normally.[/sblock]
Force spells and effects... affect an incorporeal creature normally.
Is blocking movement a normal affect of the spell? No? Then it does not do that to incorporeal creatures. Instead, it affects them normally.
The part about not being able to pass through force effects is clarifying that the ability to pass through solid objects does not supercede the "affects them normally" clause.
As far as force effects are concerned, Incorporeality is IRRELEVANT unless the spell specifically says it does something different to them.
Again, if it blocks incorporeal creatures then it blocks corporeal creatures too... because force effects treat those two types the same.
Quote:
I do not want to be rude or trolling. I just want to point out that a standard force effect is not necessarily a impenetrable barrier (which you seem to assume), and Tiny hut is not necessarily a deviation from the standard.
Nope, I assume nothing of the kind. Note that I pointed out the selective force effects of a Cube of Force earlier. Tiny Hut is clearly just such a selective force effect. It allows creatures (of all types) to pass through it, but not wind, rain, and other weather effects.
I am also of the mind that a tiny hut does not stop incorporeal creatures. While the phrasing in the Incorporeal sub-type seems very straightforward, '...cannot pass through a force effect.', as someone pointed out, it is in the context of the creature being able to pass through solid objects or other barriers that would typically stop a corporeal creature.
Despite the wording of in the Incorporeal sub-type of them not being able to pass through such effects, we can read the very next line on them being able to attack, hit, and touch a creature completely enclosed in a force effect, such as mage armor or bracers of armor. Certainly, that is an effect that actually still works to provide AC and protection against the attack, but they are still able to reach through and damage creatures.
I think, in this case, tiny hut does not prevent incorporeal creatures from passing.
I got into a debate with my GM on this very topic as we were entering an area where there were a lot of wraiths, and I wanted to use the spell as a defense against them. Given that it was a) a force effect, and b) incorporeal creatures can't pass thru a force effect.
I always assumed that the way the hut worked was that it was selectively permeable to creatures that were in the area of effect when you cast the spell up to the maximum number specified in the spell. *Those* creatures could pass freely, not any arbitrary creature.
The spell is terribly worded and should be errata'd to fix the problems. It should state hardness, and hp like wall, cube, etc. or state clearly that it only affords protection form the elements.
