Ok who is trolling? All I said was making a base class just to have a base class was bad. If a concept can not be done any other way, then sure a base class works.
All I hear is" But I WANT a base class because..well it is a base class." Not that I need it for this concept, or that concept or it works better then using x.
If something needs it, cool. I have yet to see anything listed that needs it. It is really, really hard to make a non magical class now that needs a new class.
We have 18 classes are you telling me not a single one of those 18 can fit or be made to fit? Not a one? A base class is not needed just to say "See its a base class" when really what you have is the same class as before with numbers filed off and abilities changed.
If the OP does not want anyone to disagree with him, do not start a topic on the subject.
I hear a lot of things about that game. I may have to pick it up and see what ideas I can use.
There are systems for this. M&M works really well for this. I have not got to read the warlock and warrior book but that might fit your needs well.
I have not tried the 3e edition yet, but it rally is classless d20 done right. You can do any setting any story just about. I have played fantasy, sci-fi, horror, modern and supers with that system. No HP's and you can make it as deadly as you want.
2E was pretty damned solid with lots of nice sourcebooks for about any type of game you wanted to run. I really can not speak highly enough about it.
We have 18 classes are you telling me not a single one of those 18 can fit or be made to fit? Not a one? A base class is not needed just to say "See its a base class" when really what you have is the same class as before with numbers filed off and abilities changed.
I'm working on something ;) It'll be a few more days before I can get it right, but I'll post it up here when I do.
ok so if the Ultimate Combat book comes out with a new base class it will need to be something unlike the existing 3 combat classes.
we have the Barbarian (a savage rager)
the Fighter (a weapon master)
the Cavalier ( a mounted knight)
so the question is what kind of combat class concept is missing, that is the question presented in this thread, what concept can you think of for the Ultimate Combat book
2 off the top of my head would be an unarmed brawler style class, something unlike the monk
the other would be a shape-shifter, someone who gains the ability to alter their body to improve their combat abilities
now with both of these class idea they would need to start out at level 1 with these core abilities to be on par with other classes.
both would have new abilities that no other class has, on top of that they would not work as archetypes because i see both of these classes have new abilities but not only that i see them as not having abilities of existing classes
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I'm not that keen on the glut of base classes there were in 3.5 as already stated. However there are concepts that sometimes require a base class for your style of play.
For example if I wanted to play a Dragon Disciple type character from level 1 in 3.5 there was the Dragon Shaman.
Many people only play the game up to about level 7/8. That effectively writes off prestige classes. The Archetypes only really offer a slight variation. If I want a Swashbuckler there is a Free Hand Fighter, who doesn't have Acrobatics or any more skill points than a normal fighter. The fact I'll never put on a heavy suit of armour doesn't matter. Swashbuckler is a Rogue archetype. You get one martial weapon instead of trapfinding... No "good" base attack. I see why this is the case, but its a long way away from a dedicated swashbuckler class.
That said I played in a "no limits" game and it very quickly got out of hand with class variations from PHB2, feats from a multitude of books and the power creep of new classes. Thats partly why Pathfinder exists. Its difficult to limit "official" material, especially once it has entered the SRD.
I certainly wouldn't say no more base classes, but I'd seriously consider them. One in a book, if its well thought out is in no way bad. I enjoyed several of the first round of "Complete X" classes, but there were 3 per book. By Complete Adventurer I began to wonder why there was a "Spell Thief", but never the Scout or Ninja.
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The variable class abilities from 3.5, which are rather like Archetypes, could also create "broken" combinations. So I would caution all those who are happy with the mass of Archetypes too...
I could see Swashbuckler as a Ranger Archetype mechanically, but they don't get Acrobatics either, and Archetypes tend to be flavoured around what the class is meant to do, rather than what it might... You'd have to swap out spells and the bond too.
I'd like to see a mage killer. A fighter that is designed to work w/out magic, gains bonuses against magic wielding foes (ala Occult Slayer prc) and gains the ability to resist magic. Perhaps gains additional abilities by destroying magical items (ala Forsaker prc).
I actually made a Barbarian who did this rather well. The Superstitious and Witch-hunter rage powers along with Elemental Fury work very well in combination. He has bonus to resist spells while raging, does extra damage to opponents with spells or SLA's, and gains extra rounds of rage if he takes elemental damage equal or greater than his Barbarian level. Although I don't know of anything that would help with the destroying magic items part.
ok so if the Ultimate Combat book comes out with a new base class it will need to be something unlike the existing 3 combat classes.
we have the Barbarian (a savage rager)
the Fighter (a weapon master)
the Cavalier ( a mounted knight)so the question is what kind of combat class concept is missing, that is the question presented in this thread, what concept can you think of for the Ultimate Combat book
2 off the top of my head would be an unarmed brawler style class, something unlike the monk
the other would be a shape-shifter, someone who gains the ability to alter their body to improve their combat abilities
I would add that the 'fencer/swashbuckler' archetype has also been missing (the single-handed fighter was a failed attempt, the rogue is not a fighter). The shape-shifter is more of a gish class than anything else - in fact you could achieve it with a psychic warrior. The idea I am working on is something that would include an unarmed/manoeuvre option, and a fencer option, and a few others.
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I would add that the 'fencer/swashbuckler' archetype has also been missing (the single-handed fighter was a failed attempt, the rogue is not a fighter). The shape-shifter is more of a gish class than anything else - in fact you could achieve it with a psychic warrior. The idea I am working on is something that would include an unarmed/manoeuvre option, and a fencer option, and a few others.
Dabbler, can you drop me a line when you post this?
In other words a base class for the sole reason of being a base class, not based off need or any concept.
Ok So first of all, there are people who like mechanics for their own sake. Get over yourself and realize there are people who are part of paizo's fanbase that have different preferences then you. For some there doesnt have to be justification before a jury of 12 gronards in order to justify something new. It just has to be well thought out, well written, and genuinely unique. So a base class for the sake of a base class that starts off as a mechanic instead of a concept is not some kind of mortal sin. But in the end that isnt even what we are talking about here.
Archetypes have their place, but they arent the end all be all. The have an inherant problem. They can only replace existing features, and thus you are restricted by the general form of the original class.
For some of us, the feel of a class is the most important part of the class. When I play a monk, I want the mechanics to make me feel like I am playing a monk. Flurry of blows, the increased speed and acrobatics ability. That creates the feel of the class. Archetypes (in my opinion) do not completely change the feel of the class. The shift it slightly certainly, but in the end it is alot of the same. An arcane duelist for instance, in play still feels like a bard to me. It has slightly different abilities, and my character can be completely different in behavior and personality, but the mechanics feel very very similar.
In order to produce that different feel, which to some is an important aspect, new mechanics are needed. An archetype is not a good way to add completely new mechanics. You are already confined by the existing structure of the class. The abilities you exchange have to be roughly equal in value to those you get. That is not an organic way to create a class that feels different from the existing ones.
Am I saying there should be 160 pathfinder base classes? No, I am just saying that to accomodate its entire audience instead of just a portion of it, a balance is needed. People want different things out of their games and thus out of the material paizo releases. And we should respect the fact that people want different things from this game then we do. The existance of an option you dont care to use shouldnt in my opinion have a negative impact on your game. Dont use it. We arent going to get 20 books a year to slog through and choose from from paizo. At most, we will have 2 a year. It is a very managable tsask to decide what if anything from each of those books you choose to use. There isnt a reason there can be some new base classes in there as well as new archetypes and satisfy everyone.
You said yourself the cavalier would have been difficult or impossible to create with archetypes. Is it so impossible to imagine that paizo could again surprise us with interesting classes with unique flavor and mechanics, that in the end justify their existance as base classes and not as archetypes?
+1 you put it so perfectly what i was thinking and wanted to say
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From James Jacobs from his ask him a question thread
It's certainly something I'm concerned about. And it's certainly something we're keeping an eye on. We're trying NOT to make too many base classes, but at the same time, folks really get excited about them and thus they sell lots of books, so it's a balancing act.
I think this problem is MORE of an issue for org play, honestly, where anything in print goes and the GMs can't customize options to those they're comfortable with in their home games... but then again, GMs who run org play games probably already know that and are comfortable with it.
In any event, we'll be turning down the base class faucet after the APG. There's only 1 in Ultimate Magic, after all. And beyond that, I doubt we'll be doing much with base classes... subclasses (like the antipaladin) might have some room to grow though, but they're not really base classes as much as they are in-depth archetypes.
I made a martial shapeshifter base class. It's also a bit of a skill-monkey, and uses some eidolon abilities from the summoner, but less so.
Evolver
BAB: +¾
Good Saves: Fortitude and Reflex
Hit Dice: 1d8
Class Skills: Acrobatics, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Fly, Handle Animal, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (all), Linguistics, Perception, Perform (acting), Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Survival, Swim.
Skill Ranks per Level: 6 + Intelligence modifier.
Evolvers are proficient in all Simple and Martial Weapons. Evolvers are also proficient in any natural weapons they gain by assuming other forms. Evolvers are not proficient with any armor or shields.
LEVEL ABILITY
1. Evolution Pool, Evolutions, Evolve Form (disguise self, enlarge person, reduce person), Evolver’s Defense, Evolver’s Trick, Evolving Enhancement
2. Evolving Trait (skills)
3. Evolve Form (alter self, barkskin, tree shape)
4. Evolver’s Defense +1, Evolver’s Trick
5. Evolve Form (beast shape I, gaseous form, invisibility, water breathing)
6. Evolving Trait (feat), Rapid Change (standard action)
7. Evolve Form (beast shape II, elemental body I), Improved Evolving Enhancement
8. Evolver’s Defense +2, Evolver’s Trick
9. Evolve Form (beast shape III, elemental body II, greater invisibility, plant shape I, polymorph, righteous might)
10. Evolving Trait (extraordinary class feature)
11. Evolve Form (beast shape IV, elemental body III, form of the dragon I, plant shape II, transformation)
12. Evolver’s Defense +3, Evolver’s Trick, Rapid Change (move action)
13. Evolve Form (elemental body IV, form of the dragon II, giant form I, plant shape III, greater polymorph, statue), Greater Evolving Enhancement
14. Evolving Trait (supernatural class feature)
15. Evolve Form (form of the dragon III, giant form II, iron body)
16. Evolver’s Defense +4, Evolver’s Trick
17. Evolve Form (shape change)
18. Evolving Trait (spell-like class feature), Rapid Change (swift action)
19. Ultimate Evolving Enhancement
20. Evolver’s Defense +5, Evolver’s Trick, Fluid Form
Evolution Pool (Su). You have a pool of evolution points equal to ½ your class level + your Constitution modifier. You use these points to power your shape changing abilities.
Evolutions (Su). Whenever you change your form using your Evolve Form ability, you can spend extra points from your Evolution Pool to add one or more Evolutions your new form. Use your evolver level as your summoner level for the purposes of determining which Evolutions you can use.
Evolve Form (Su). You can change your shape as a full round action by spending 1 point from your Evolution Pool.
At 1st level, you can use disguise self, enlarger person, or reduce person.
At 3rd level, you can use alter self, barkskin, or tree shape.
At 5th level, you can use beast shape I, gaseous form, invisibility, or water breathing.
At 7th level, you can use beast shape II, elemental body I.
At 9th level, you can use beast shape III, elemental body II, greater invisibility, plant shape I, polymorph, or righteous might.
At 11th level, you can use beast shape IV, elemental body III, form of the dragon I, plant shape II, or transformation.
At 13th level, you can use elemental body IV, form of the dragon II, giant form I, plant shape III, greater polymorph, or statue.
At 15th level, you can use form of the dragon III, giant form II, or iron body.
At 17th level, they can use shape change.
The Save DC of any special ability of the evolver’s assumed form is 10 + ½ your evolver level + your Constitution modifier.
Evolver’s Defense (Ex). The evolver adds his Wisdom bonus to his AC when he is not wearing any armor or carrying a medium or heavy load. This bonus applies to his touch AC, and he does not lose this bonus to his AC when he is flatfooted or otherwise denied his Dexterity bonus to AC. He does lose it if he is immobilized or helpless. At level 4, and every 4 levels thereafter, this bonus to his AC increases by +1.
Evolver’s Trick (Su). At 1st level, 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the evolver chooses one of the following abilities.
Ability Damage/Drain Resistance. When you use Evolve Form, you can spend an additional point from your Evolution Pool and gain the ability to reduce the amount of ability damage, ability drain, and ability penalties you sustain by an amount equal to the number of Evolver’s Tricks that you have.
Chameleon. You gain a bonus equal to your class level on Disguise and Stealth skill checks.
Damage Reduction. When you use Evolve Form, you can spend an additional point from your Evolution Pool to grant yourself DR 1/silver for every Evolver’s Trick you know (including this one). At 20th level, when you use this ability you gain DR 10/silver instead.
Early Form. When you choose this Evolver’s Trick, you add an Evolve Form type of level equal to 1 higher than you currently can use to your list of known Evolved Forms. For example, at 1st level, you could add alter self, barkskin, or tree shape to your list of known Evolved Forms.
Fast Healing. When you use Evolve Form, you can spend an additional point from your Evolution Pool to grant yourself Fast Healing 1 if your hit point total is less than ½ your normal maximum.
Fortification. When you are using Evolve Form, you can spend an additional point from your Evolution Pool to gain the benefits of Light Fortification. At level 8, you gain the ability to spend 2 additional points from your Evolution Pool to gain the benefits of Medium Fortification. At level 16, you gain the ability to spend 3 additional points from your Evolution Pool to gain the benefits of Heavy Fortification.
Hand Tool. By spending 1 point from your Evolution Pool, you can turn one or both of your hands into a tool. If you spend an additional point from your Evolution Pool, this is considered a masterwork tool.
Hand Weapon. By spending 1 point from your Evolution Pool, you can turn one or both of your hands into a light or one-handed Simple weapon. By spending 2 points from your Evolution Pool, you can turn one or both of your hands into a light or one-handed Martial weapon.
Kangaroo Pouch. You can grow a pouch with an extradimensional capacity on your body. You can store up to 10 pounds per level in the pouch. You can remove or place an item in the pouch as a free action; this essentially lets you use Quick Draw for any weapons that are stored in your pouch.
Living Weapon. By spending 1 point from your Evolution Pool, you can transform your hands into claws that do damage equal to the unarmed strike of a monk of your level.
Magic Fang. When you use Evolve Form, you can spend an additional point from your Evolution Pool to gain the benefits of magic fang to one of your natural attacks. You can spend 2 additional points from your Evolution Pool to gain the benefits of greater magic fang instead. You can spend 1 additional point from your Evolution Pool to gain the benefits of align fang.
Quick Change. You decrease the amount of time it takes to use Evolve Form by one step, from a full round action to a standard action at 1st level, from a standard action to a move action at 6th level, from a move action to a swift action at 12th level, and from a swift action to a free action at 18th level.
Quick Curing. You can spend one point from your Evolution Pool as an immediate action and heal yourself 1d8 hit points for every Evolver’s Trick that you have.
Quick Foot. When you are using Evolve Form, you can spend an additional point from your Evolution Pool to give yourself a +10 foot enhancement bonus to your speed for every Evolver’s Trick you know (including this one).
Evolving Enhancement (Ex). Whenever you use your Evolve Form ability, you gain one of the following enhancements: +2 to Strength, +2 to Dexterity, +2 to Constitution, or +2 to your natural armor. At 7th level, you choose two of the above enhancements, and one of them provides a +4 bonus. At 13th level, you choose three of the above enhancements, and one of them provides a +6 bonus and one provides a +4 bonus. At 19th level, you gain a +8, +6, +4, and +2 bonus, distributed amongst all four enhancements.
Evolving Trait (Ex). At 2nd level, you gain an evolving trait. You gain an additional evolving trait at levels 6, 10, 14, and 18. An evolving trait is an ability you can change each day; once it is selected it lasts for 24 hours or until you spend a point from your Evolution Pool to change it. At 2nd level, you can use your evolving trait to gain a number of skill ranks equal to your level. At 6th level, you may select any feat you qualify for as a bonus feat. At 10th level, you can select any extraordinary class ability from any other class, this ability must be available at the other class’s level equal to half your class level. If the ability has any prerequisites, you must meet those requirements. At 14th level, you can select any supernatural class ability from any other class; this ability must be available to the other class at a level equal to half of your class level. At 18th level, you can select any spell-like ability class feature from any other class; this ability must be available to the other class at a level equal to half of your class level.
Rapid Change (Su). At 6th level, you can use Evolve Form as a standard action. At 12th level, you can use Evolve Form as a move action. At 18th level, you can use Evolve Form as a swift action.
Fluid Form (Su). You can use Evolve Form at will without spending any points from your Evolution Pool. You may still spend points from your Evolution points to enhance your form or activate any of your other class abilities, as normal.
A weapon Master.
He's dedicated to one weapon and one weapon only, but at this he excels.There would be different bonuses depending whether it was a slashing, bludgeoning, or piercing weapon.
There would be different bonus whether it was a light, one handed or two handed weapon.
Add different moves, special attacks and what not to your liking.
Bonus to resist disarm and sunder and such.
It's not quite as involved as you've described, but specifically, it does have the bonuses against disarm and sunder. Special moves would have been fun. Perhaps some things similar to the Equipment Trick feat?
I'm aware of the weaponmaster in the APG ;) What I'm thinking of goes a bit further than that, as you already hinted at. This guy (m/f) should shatter the boundaries for what would normally be possible. I could even see him get the ability to endow his weapon with certain magical effects, call them spiritual, as per the paladin's bonded weapon. In effect he would choose one specific weapon to bond with. Wasn't there this here kensai class from 1st ed that had this. Sorry, rambling. Happens when you get old and remember too much from way back when ;)
I could see him gain CM Feats that tied to his weapon. Heck, I could imagine lots of stuff... Maybe I'll take a whach at it and see what I can come up with...
I made a martial shapeshifter base class. It's also a bit of a skill-monkey, and uses some eidolon abilities from the summoner, but less so.
** spoiler omitted **...
Looks good i was considering something like this myself one question however.
Does the Evolve Form ability have a duration or is it paid for by points?
On the subject of an unarmed brawler class, I'm sort of happy with the situation as it is now. You can do well as an unarmed character if you are a monk, who spends years perfecting himself and his ki abilities, or if you play a barbarian with the brawler rage powers. Other unarmed builds aren't going to be as good as regular characters, because hey, using weapons in combat is generally more effective. Who'd have thunk?
I'm perfectly fine with the options available to people wanting to play as an unarmed character as they are. I don't want the system to have too many classes running around unarmed. It'll start to feel silly and will make the monk feel a lot less unique.
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we have the Barbarian (a savage rager)
the Fighter (a weapon master)
the Cavalier ( a mounted knight)
I would argue that any full BAB class should fit this bill. I think Paladin and Ranger are just as much "combat" classes as the other three. In fact, I could even see the arguement to add Rogue to the list because you can definitely build a "combat heavy" rogue who can do very decently in combat (although it definitely could be expanded.
That being said on the archetype vs. base class arguement... it's probably ok to make a concept, build the base class around that concept and see what you get. I however do think that once this concept is built you need to do an in depth analysis determining (after you have the base class concept) whether it could be done just as well or even better as an archetype. Like others have said archetypes are here to stay and they do fill a great niche in the industry. They take less room to publish, are easier on players to understand, and are much easier to balance for.
I think that about the only combat class that may be interesting and effective would be something along the lines of the Marshall.
I could swear that Erik Mona said somewhere, this year's Paizocon Banquet maybe,that the magus from Ultimate Magic would be the last base class Paizo releases for a while. I really hope this is the case.
Can anyone confirm this?
Shane
I think you are right. Not really thinking they would make a new one, just daydreaming about what kind of concept would actually have a chance at being a base class. I imagine that any new base classes would really need to be something special. Not really powerful, but original & interesting in concept.
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WTF Paizo! I just realized that the GMG doesn't have ANY new pase classes or prestige classes! THIS. IS. UN. ACCEPT. ABLE. How amn I supposed to build my character concept of a fire elemental arctic adventurer if you don't provide me with rules for:
1. fire elemental PCs
2. the Arctic adventurer prestige class
3. snowshoes
4. fireproof materials appropriate for snowshoe construction
5. smurf zombies
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WTF Paizo! I just realized that the GMG doesn't have ANY new pase classes or prestige classes! THIS. IS. UN. ACCEPT. ABLE. How amn I supposed to build my character concept of a fire elemental arctic adventurer if you don't provide me with rules for:
Why do you even need those rules? They just stifle your creativity! You should just describe your intrepid fire elemental character trudging through the snow stoic and miserably and not worry about what the rules say!
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One would be the noble savage. Not the barbarian, it's close, but not what I'm talking about. I'm having trouble remembering the books, but in several different books I've had Horse Clans, they were savages, little equipment, nomadic, living with their horses as one in nature. They had berserkers, but they were not chaotic, even the berserkers were highly focused when they berserked.
It was less like rage, and more like smite. A berserker would berserk on a specific enemy, and stay berserked on that one enemy until they were defeated, or until the berserker was. The clan had a very rigid honor system, with everyone knowing their place and acting according to tradition.
In other words, a lawful barbarian who gains the benefit of rage X times per day, but only while he's attacking a specific designated opponent. If he attacks anyone else, or if that opponent is defeated, his rage ends. No 'rage drain' at the end, just raging on one opponent. Could be an object, berserking on a stone blocking the path and pounding on it until it shatters.
That looks like a cavalier archetype to me.
I hope it's a ninja.
I hope it's a ninja.
Yep more rogue archetypes would be good :)
I'll let you have the last word.
Somebody has to be the grownup and it's funny if I am.
OK, here is the idea I was working with. I started with the Cavelier as a base, but it just wasn't flexible enough for the archetypes I wanted, it was too tightly focussed.
So I started on a 'nobleman' class that would be flexible, but that name seemed inappropriate given that not all of the styles were appropriate for the 'gentleman' and yet some definitely were. So I settled on the name, 'Elite' to describe the focussed styles of the class.
This is far from complete, I have basic ideas and concepts down, but have not worked out the details of many class abilities. I'm posting it up here for people to comment on the basic structure of the class and to make suggestions on abilities.
I'll give this a look over man. But from a glance you have broken the class ablities into well archetypes.
I have to say I dont think there is a niche that isn't already fillable by another class already.
Anything that has to do with a type of combat is not a need for a class or a variation of a form of combat.
For instance using a two handed sword well doesnt require a class, being on a horse shouldnt require a class, punching with your fists shouldnt require a class.
For a new class you have to look much deeper and find out something that doesnt even already exist. I have seen "we need a horse guy!" (there is like ten archetypes and five base classes that can all do this) or "I would like a manuever specialist" (two base classes do this with another handful of archetypes).
Bottom line is combat flavor does not mean it deserves a base class. Over all niche it supports for the party is where a new base class should come from.
A base class that maybe could be feasible is basically something along the lines of what the Dragon Shaman did, some kind of weird effect aura thing.
Is it needed? Idk. Would it be fun to play? possibly. Will they make something like that? I doubt it. But its really the only thing that cant be done by another class already with an archetype because it requires an entirely new mechanic.
A close second is basically the tech guy but an alchemist archetype that eliminates spells for talents could maybe do that.
This isn't to upset you north but I think people want to hear why you want a new class? I mean is it solely because you just want one or is there an idea you can't do that you want?
Paizo has basically spoken their piece on the base class thing and it looks like a no go... atleast from what I hear but I could be wrong.
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I think you are trying to answer an altogether different question than us.
What you seem to be responding to is "What niche that currently exists is missing a class to fill it?" The answer to this is naturally, none.
What I am asking is what worthwhile niche can be created using a new base class.
When I am thinking of a new class I am hoping to see something NEW, something interesting and flavorful that hasn't been done before. Something that would be useful and fun in its own unique way. The last thing I want is something that COULD have been done with an archetype, and as has been said already, I don't see what is so fundamentally wrong with liking the prospect of some new and interesting mechanics to fit into my games.
EDIT: This also calls into question, how BIG is this book going to be? If it is missing the 5-6 pages from the new Core class (From UM), another 25-30 to be dedicated to spells, and 10-15 pages from a new magic casting system, I simply don't see this book being NEARLY as large (or likely player friendly) as UM will be. I understand yes, a couple of new combat maneuvers sure, but those will take up maybe 5 pages in total. UM and UC should probably tie on the number of pages dedicated to feats & archetypes, so where are the other 30+ pages coming from? I doubt Mass combat will take up that much space. There HAS to be a bunch of new things we simply don't know about that are going to be in UC compared to UM otherwise it would simply look pretty foppish (Not to mention showing favorites) to dedicate so much more space to a spellcaster book than a martial book.
*Wanders back in because "Hey new classes"*
@Dabbler: I like the idea and so far it looks pretty good, but I think Noble could be a better name than Elite. Also could you post it in a new thred on Homebrew? I'm trying to avoid this thread...
@Bertious: I was in the thread were SmiloDan first debuted that class, so allow me to answer: You spend 1 point and the Evolve Form has the same duration as the emulated spell or until you dispel it to use a different one (spending another point). At 20th level you dont have to spend that point, so you can cast Beat Shape, dispel it and go to Dragon Shape without spending points. And Evolving Trait nets you the skill ranks, feat, and three extra class habilities at the same time.
What I am asking is what worthwhile niche can be created using a new base class.
When I am thinking of a new class I am hoping to see something NEW, something interesting and flavorful that hasn't been done before. Something that would be useful and fun in its own unique way. The last thing I want is something that COULD have been done with an archetype, and as has been said already, I don't see what is so fundamentally wrong with liking the prospect of some new and interesting mechanics to fit into my games.
That is exactly what they did for all the new classes on the APG. Build a new mechanic and make a class around it. There was NO niche that needed a Summoner class to fill it.
I'll give this a look over man. But from a glance you have broken the class ablities into well archetypes.
That was my point.
There are some specialisations that the Fighter does not fulfil very well, or the other combat classes - specifically the civilised, educated fighter. Be he a mounted knight, a fencer, a man-of-the-world, he's simply not catered for in the system.
So what was needed was a class that could represent that education (skills) and make use of the intelligence and yet was still a combat class. That meant breaking it into specialisations. It makes adding to the class easier, as you can just make a new specialisation. It also means all the ideas proposed here - Marshal, Swashbuckler, Unarmed/Manoeuvre Fighter, Gunman, etc. can be incorporated in one fell swoop.
@Dabbler: I like the idea and so far it looks pretty good, but I think Noble could be a better name than Elite. Also could you post it in a new thred on Homebrew? I'm trying to avoid this thread...
Sure, will do that. I avoided Noble because some of the specialisations just aren't 'noble' although most are at least requiring of an education.
Well the issue for the Ultimate Combat I believe is they are going to do something probably like a "fighting style" archetype. (they have already made threads about this).
What that will probably be is a fighting style that is applicable to ANY class by replacing a main class ability. Druids lose wildshape, clerics lose channel, rangers lose casting, ect. And gain:
- Bear Wrestling fighting style
- Air elemental bush whacking style
- Scorpion tail stabbity doom style.
you get the idea.
Basically if its an out of combat thing you want to suggest I am all ears but if you want to see ONLY something new that applies to combat situations I assure you you will! it will be in an archetype.
The only thing archetypes dont replace is as follows: (and only so far)
Hit Dice
Saves
Skill points
BAB
That is it.
Everything else can be completely changed via archetype.
So my next question then is this. What "new idea" requires that you cant use someones already existing Hit Dice, Saves, skill points, and Base attack bonus?
EDIT: Earlier there was a comment about how monks always have a certain "feel" which cant be changed by an archetype.
I can play this:
A Drunken Master of the Four Winds and the Sacred Mountain...
Been reading through the posts and just thought I'd toss in a few thoughts.
-A bare knuckles brawler/wrestler would be an interesting concept for a core class. And one I've toyed with for NPC creations. Never seemed right though, deserves a more defined role.
-Goblin Ninja I'd vote for this just to see Wayne Reynolds iconic art though.
-Zombie Smurfs only so I stomp on them.
Edit: Ack my avatars been replaced by a Smurf ...is it Smurf Tuesday?
Been reading through the posts and just thought I'd toss in a few thoughts.
-A bare knuckles brawler/wrestler would be an interesting concept for a core class. And one I've toyed with for NPC creations. Never seemed right though, deserves a more defined role.
-Goblin Ninja I'd vote for this just to see Wayne Reynolds iconic art though.
-Zombie Smurfs only so I stomp on them.Edit: Ack my avatars been replaced by a Smurf ...is it Smurf Tuesday?
If you say smurf you get turned into one.
I want an Artificer type guy. Very steampunk style that uses technology to produce magical effects. You can kind of create this with a skin, but I picture this guy with a haversack full of random gears and gauges constantly crafting tools in the field in a Macguyver sort of way.
Party: "How the heck are we going to know when 5 minutes is up?"
Me: Hold on a second... /digs around in bag for parts. /craft check to make 1-time use stopwatch
Me: This should do it!
I'd like to see this, but i dont think it ought to be the base class that appears in ultimate combat.
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I hear a lot of things about that game. I may have to pick it up and see what ideas I can use.
There are systems for this. M&M works really well for this. I have not got to read the warlock and warrior book but that might fit your needs well.I have not tried the 3e edition yet, but it rally is classless d20 done right. You can do any setting any story just about. I have played fantasy, sci-fi, horror, modern and supers with that system. No HP's and you can make it as deadly as you want.
2E was pretty damned solid with lots of nice sourcebooks for about any type of game you wanted to run. I really can not speak highly enough about it.
M&M 2E is fun, but not balanced. With enough ranks of Super Strength, one can easily throw opponents into space. That's just one example.
There's nothing really stopping a Super-Strong Super-Speed character from going a few hundred miles with a Move-By Attack, and the opponent can't really do much about it.
The difference is that M&M doesn't really support rewards other than PR rewards. There's no items to be had, or money, or anything other than power points for characters to spend. Therefore, I feel, it silently discourages optimizing for the sake of "winning" the game.
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I'd like to see this, but i dont think it ought to be the base class that appears in ultimate combat.I want an Artificer type guy. Very steampunk style that uses technology to produce magical effects. You can kind of create this with a skin, but I picture this guy with a haversack full of random gears and gauges constantly crafting tools in the field in a Macguyver sort of way.
Party: "How the heck are we going to know when 5 minutes is up?"
Me: Hold on a second... /digs around in bag for parts. /craft check to make 1-time use stopwatch
Me: This should do it!
It might be an idea for "Ultimate Skillmonkey", or whatever it gets called, if such a thing ever comes to be.
'Ultimate Skill' sounds like a fine title. :)
I vote for "Ultimate Genius."
D20 Modern's d20 Past had a tech-using Advanced Class that basically made "technological" items that emulated "spell-like effects" through extraordinary means. So, there could be "flamethrowers" that emulated scorching ray, "nightvision" goggles that emulated darkvision, "stealthsuits" that emulated invisiblity, etc. etc.
'Ultimate Skill' sounds like a fine title. :)
Sadly there will be an Ultimate nothing else coming after the Combat and Magic.
LAME!
VERY LAME!'Ultimate Skill' sounds like a fine title. :)Sadly there will be an Ultimate nothing else coming after the Combat and Magic.
LAME!
ULTIMATE!!!! LAME!!!!