It is not nearly impossible to play without breaking it. In fact, you have to actually try to break it, same as with most other classes. The class really isn't that fragile. You're dramatically overstating your case, Cibulan.
I'll be the first to admit I was engaging in a bit of hyperbole but you're just as guilty of turning a blind eye to the fact that it is far, far easier to break a summoner than any other class.
Why? Because out of all of the APG (or even all of the 3.5 splat books I can think of), the summoner most breaks the mold from the norm. It is easier to break because no other class asks you to build something from scratch as the primary feature of the class. Yes, others have pets, but familiars and animal companions are more comparable to templates than build-an-eidolon.
Every other class can be viewed as an application of a formula or template: take your base stats, add in BAB, features, feats, etc. The familiars/animal companions work in the same model. But the summoner asks the player to engage in an activity more comparable to what a DM/Developer does than a player.
Like I said, I was engaging in hyperbole, but hey, it's the holidays and the internet, I'm allowed to indulge. I have no doubt that some players can build a 100% balanced and legal eidolon (perhaps you're one of them Zurai), but anecdotal experience tells that most people can't.
So why gamble? Why risk it or stress over it as a DM? DMing is hard enough and often thankless as it is, why worry about your player's pet? It is easier to ask them to play a conjurer (monster stats from the book) or druid if they want to play a pet class.
Anyway, this is off topic. I've said my peace. Agree to disagree.
Happy holidays!
it is far, far easier to break a summoner than any other class.
You clearly havn't worked with new players often. I've seen new players "break" (in the same definition you're using) 3.5 Fighters.
classes are easy to break if you don't follow the rules. Eidolons are only one single step (apply evolutions) more complex than Animal Companions, and they're no more complex than Astral Constructs were in 3.5; Astral Constructs had fewer "evolution points", is all. That's hardly "The whole class is broken, it should never have been printed!" irredeemably broken.
Like I said Zurai, agree to disagree. I never liked astral constructs either, so I have the same feeling about the summoner.
We have different philosophies, experiences, and desires, so it is pointless to argue.
Rock on with your summoners, I'll stick to my conjurers and everyone will be happy.
Back on topic:
recap, the Eidolon is not broken, but it is a very complicated beast that requires a level of system mastery and attention to detail that most (read: not casual, average) players and DMs do not possess.
Because of the difficulty, it is easy to miscalculate a portion of the eidolon. In such a case, it may appear that it is "broken". If one decides to play/allow an eidolon, everyone involved should carefully read the rules and build the beast together. Periodic audits are advised.
Is that a fair description?
Firstly Happy Holidays folks!
I would suggest if a dm is going to let someone play a summoner maybe the player should describe what he/she wants i.e. "How about a cool tiger/unicorn/centaur with FIRE!!!" and then eitherr the dm makes it or turn it into a group event letting all the players help.
They should have either simplified the summoner or left it out of the APG and bundled a pamphlet containing the class with Hero Lab :)
Actually, I do kind of wonder how many people are out there, that don't bother to post because they have no issues at all with the summoner. I mean, why would you. " Summoner works fine as is in our campaign...I'm gonna log onto Paizo and write a thread about that."
Greg
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They should have either simplified the summoner or left it out of the APG and bundled a pamphlet containing the class with Hero Lab :)Actually, I do kind of wonder how many people are out there, that don't bother to post because they have no issues at all with the summoner. I mean, why would you. " Summoner works fine as is in our campaign...I'm gonna log onto Paizo and write a thread about that."
Greg
I think this is true of most of this issues on here.
Firstly Happy Holidays folks!
I would suggest if a dm is going to let someone play a summoner maybe the player should describe what he/she wants i.e. "How about a cool tiger/unicorn/centaur with FIRE!!!" and then eitherr the dm makes it or turn it into a group event letting all the players help.
This sounds pretty good
It is not nearly impossible to play without breaking it. In fact, you have to actually try to break it, same as with most other classes. The class really isn't that fragile. You're dramatically overstating your case, Cibulan.I'll be the first to admit I was engaging in a bit of hyperbole but you're just as guilty of turning a blind eye to the fact that it is far, far easier to break a summoner than any other class.
In what sense of the word are you using the word break this time, inherenetly broken or too complicated?
Firstly Happy Holidays folks!
I would suggest if a dm is going to let someone play a summoner maybe the player should describe what he/she wants i.e. "How about a cool tiger/unicorn/centaur with FIRE!!!" and then eitherr the dm makes it or turn it into a group event letting all the players help.
That is more trouble than it is worth. Either the player demonstrates the ability to use the class or they don't get to use it. I know I don't want anyone building a class for me. I do the same thing with players that try to summon things, but never have the stats ready. Some classes/builds require more prep time and/or overall work than others. Be ready to do the work or play an easier class/build.
I know I don't want anyone building a class for me. I do the same thing with players that try to summon things, but never have the stats ready. Some classes/builds require more prep time and/or overall work than others. Be ready to do the work or play an easier class/build.
+1.
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I suppose that I fall into the 'Doesn't really have a problem with the Summoner' category that was most recently mentioned.
BTW, I am the DM 95% of the time,so I get to 'deal with' clever players (And my pool of gamers has quite a few optimizers).
That being said, I will touch on a few issues regarding the Class/Eidolon.
Firstly, it isn't an original concept in gaming. Stormbringer (Which I ran) had the same sort of rules for Demons (All magic items, as well as actually 'monster' Demons). You summoned raw Chaos/Magic, then formed it into what you wished; Magic Sword, Flying Carpet...6 armed slavering beast of destruction. It had a lot of tragic comedy going on, such as a Sorc trying to bind a Demon with a POW score too high (Stormbringer, like Traveler, had deaths during character set-up, but I digress...). Hero System,and other points systems, obviously, have a similar (And better thought out, points-wise) mechanic as well.
Second: I hear a lot of people talking about how broken this Class and it's pet are. I wonder how many folks saying such things actually PLAY the game regularly. Even with the builds that I see, the things don't rate much higher than the Tanks and optimized casters that I encounter from players. There are drawbacks, the Eidolon has to be summoned, the Summoner is vulnerable to attacks, since he is throwing everything into his Eidolon. If you (Or I) are comparing things in a vacuum, saying 'Eidolon is too powerful, compared to an equal level fighter with WLA gear...' I say 'Sure, maybe he is scary'. But, (I am only playing one PC right now, a 9th Lvl Archer), I shoot 4-5 shots a round, for D8+8+2D6 elemental damage/arrow... Without Deadly Aim, and I don't provoke in Melee. That (To some) is also broken. I sure know that it is annoying to a DM (My last 3.5 game had a suped up version of that guy running around). Unbeatable? Hardly. Disarm, Sunder (Although I took the Fighter Favored option vs those, just for that reason), Will save is only +6 or 7, for instance. Eidolons are powerful, cool, allow a lot of variety, but Broken? Nope.
As a DM, I'm not going to throw WLA fighters against that Eidolon,.
I'm using enemies that don't want to end up a cheap XP tally.
Those Goblins are setting traps, coating the floor of the entrance hallway with oil (either for slipping up the PCs, or setting on fire),
keeping an angry boar in a pen (Half-starved, and ready to gore whatever delicious looking PCs come by, once set free (Goblins perched atop the cage, out of harm's way).As well, when every Goblin has a knife, or bow, or even a rock to throw at the thing (And the big freak will definitely get more hits than the little guy (Summoner) behind it, at least in my game...since those Gobbies are scared of the whatever-it-is, it is going to take a lot of damage. Smarter enemies will possibly realize the score (And target the Summoner), but the others will wade into the Eidolon and whittle the fellow down.
That Eidolon isn't allowed everywhere in polite society either. Folks here can talk all they want about just comparing Math, and discounting Role-Playing situations, but this is a Role-Playing Game, not a math simulation.
You approach the gates of Stagsfall with a 10' tall, 6 armed gorilla-mantis-bear, and...at best, you are held up and informed that it isn't welcome withing the City. Common folk don't want to see that thing, have it sit behind the Summoner while he discusses his next adventure at the Belching Orc Inn...
At worst? Well, someone may just think it is a Demon, controlling the poor Wizard(Summoner)...and that could go very, very badly.
Unless Summoners are a very well-established group, with a Guild, 'papers' for having freakish monstrosities at their sides (Not a bad concept, if I say so) and rules of conduct, clearly spelled out withing whatever society they interact with, just the Societal penalties alone can make an Eidolon far less than optimal.
What I am trying to say is, I don't think it is broken in actual play. It may look so in the vacuum of Forum-Design/DM Worrying, but it is not hard to deal with in an actual living World setting.
-Uriel
PS:Happy XMas/Whatever you celebrate. Mine has been rough (First XMas without my Mom), but at least I have these entertaining forums to read through. Cheers.
Edit:Spelling errors
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Firstly, it isn't an original concept in gaming. Stormbringer (Which I ran) had the same sort of rules for Demons (All magic items, as well as actually 'monster' Demons). You summoned raw Chaos/Magic, then formed it into what you wished; Magic Sword, Flying Carpet...6 armed slavering beast of destruction. It had a lot of tragic comedy going on, such as a Sorc trying to bind a Demon with a POW score too high...
My handle comes from a Stormbringer game. The Demon shovel was smarter and more powerful than my character; fortunately for the party, it was merely obsessed with digging...
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My handle comes from a Stormbringer game. The Demon shovel was smarter and more powerful than my character; fortunately for the party, it was merely obsessed with digging...
Firstly, it isn't an original concept in gaming. Stormbringer (Which I ran) had the same sort of rules for Demons (All magic items, as well as actually 'monster' Demons). You summoned raw Chaos/Magic, then formed it into what you wished; Magic Sword, Flying Carpet...6 armed slavering beast of destruction. It had a lot of tragic comedy going on, such as a Sorc trying to bind a Demon with a POW score too high...
My favorite Demon (Summoned by my Pan Tangian Sorc) looked like a crossbow, with little legs for locomotion, tentacles to cock it/load it, an eyeball on a stalk for targeting. had pretty good damage (+3D6 IIRC, it was in the 90s...). After crating all of that, I had 5D10% to generate To Hit (Again, IIRC for the system), and got...17% to to hit.
:|
Did I dismiss it? Hells No, it was the funniest thing in the game to have 'Blinky' (Yes, Simpsons fan at the time) hop down off of my horse (Where people just thought that he was a normal crossbow) and wade into battle (Sort of...).
I also had a Demon that looked like a bulging pouch, who would drop a gold coin here or there...to tempt thieves. 5D6 Bite attack when they stuck their hands in(Hehehe...).
-Uriel
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You approach the gates of Stagsfall with a 10' tall, 6 armed gorilla-mantis-bear, and...at best, you are held up and informed that it isn't welcome withing the City
Yeah, that always bugged me when people show an Eidolon build with the large/huge evolution. Are you seriously going to argue that a 30 foot creature will be just fine in all pathfinder scenarios instead of being a huge (pun intended) drawback? I'm sure many people will have serious reservations about using these evolutions at all.
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You approach the gates of Stagsfall with a 10' tall, 6 armed gorilla-mantis-bear, and...at best, you are held up and informed that it isn't welcome withing the CityYeah, that always bugged me when people show an Eidolon build with the large/huge evolution. Are you seriously going to argue that a 30 foot creature will be just fine in all pathfinder scenarios instead of being a huge (pun intended) drawback? I'm sure many people will have serious reservations about using these evolutions at all.
Kingmaker Spoiler
My players are right at the end of the second module (Rivers Run Red), and a Huge/advanced Owlbear has just destroyed a chunk of their town, while they were away , dealing with a Troll lair. If anything resembling a massive monster were to show up at the gates, it would be slayed rather quickly.
-Uriel
They should have either simplified the summoner or left it out of the APG and bundled a pamphlet containing the class with Hero Lab :)Actually, I do kind of wonder how many people are out there, that don't bother to post because they have no issues at all with the summoner. I mean, why would you. " Summoner works fine as is in our campaign...I'm gonna log onto Paizo and write a thread about that."
Greg
We have a Summoner in our campaign, our group is based off the idea of a traveling circus we have an Alchemist as a snake-oil salesman a Fighter/Strong-guy a Divination based Priestess as a fortune teller. The Summoner's Eidolon has not been over powered at all in fact is the secondary frontline fighter in our group. We went for role-play over roll-play in our character designs so no one is really optimized though.
Like others I see these threads pop up accusing it of being broken when instead the Eidolon was just built wrong.
Like others I see these threads pop up accusing it of being broken when instead the Eidolon was just built wrong.
It is a common occurrence.
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You approach the gates of Stagsfall with a 10' tall, 6 armed gorilla-mantis-bear, and...at best, you are held up and informed that it isn't welcome withing the CityYeah, that always bugged me when people show an Eidolon build with the large/huge evolution. Are you seriously going to argue that a 30 foot creature will be just fine in all pathfinder scenarios instead of being a huge (pun intended) drawback? I'm sure many people will have serious reservations about using these evolutions at all.
So the main feature of the class cannot be used in many cases? Then it's bad design on the module or the class.
This was one of the complaints during playtesting. Either through role-playing, or disabling the summoner, their main feature is utterly nullified.
No, nothing in the class makes you build something that wont fit in a building or will not be allowed in most cities. You choose to make it so.
Like choosing to play a goblin then complaining when it is treated like a goblin.
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No, nothing in the class makes you build something that wont fit in a building or will not be allowed in most cities. You choose to make it so.
Like choosing to play a goblin then complaining when it is treated like a goblin.
What about fantastic wizards performing powerful magic? Are they punished for using their spells? Or fighters for fighting?
All in the world. Casting spells in the street..yes..waving weapons around unsheathed..yes.
Druids have the same issue...No you can not bring that bear in here...I don't care if he likes you.
The Eidolon or Druid's T-Rex not being allowed into a city will vary from gameworld to gameworld and DM to DM. I see both sides of the coin. I usually run a world where adventures are common so the Eidolon won't scare a lot of people as long as it is not walking around by itself, but if they end up in some backwater village people might start to throw rocks. The same goes for the T-Rex, and Lions scaring people also.
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All in the world. Casting spells in the street..yes..waving weapons around unsheathed..yes.
Druids have the same issue...No you can not bring that bear in here...I don't care if he likes you.
As long as the DM is consistent, but the summoner class is severely punished for his main strength just being around. Especially since the Summon Monster list is nerfed. Not many spells, weak summons, cannot use his main feature unless it is there already.
I disagree, the player choose the make a 30 foot tall 8 armed demon thing that breaths fire. That is no ones fault but his.
That might or might not work..but if he can't get in the gate he can't come in and unless they really, really like you no one wants your 30' anything in the town.
I disagree, the player choose the make a 30 foot tall 8 armed demon thing that breaths fire. That is no ones fault but his.
I gotta agree if he is going that far out. My DM gave me a hard time for being a teifling. I think they are a lot less scary than demons. The player should keep the appearance of the eidolon in mind if he expect for it to travel with him. Now if he can make it appear angelic the DM might be nicer to him.
I thought there was supposed to be a spell that allowed you to change your summoner around. I don't know if it made it into the final APG though.
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They should have either simplified the summoner or left it out of the APG and bundled a pamphlet containing the class with Hero Lab :)Actually, I do kind of wonder how many people are out there, that don't bother to post because they have no issues at all with the summoner. I mean, why would you. " Summoner works fine as is in our campaign...I'm gonna log onto Paizo and write a thread about that."
Greg
We have a Summoner in our campaign, our group is based off the idea of a traveling circus we have an Alchemist as a snake-oil salesman a Fighter/Strong-guy a Divination based Priestess as a fortune teller. The Summoner's Eidolon has not been over powered at all in fact is the secondary frontline fighter in our group. We went for role-play over roll-play in our character designs so no one is really optimized though.
Like others I see these threads pop up accusing it of being broken when instead the Eidolon was just built wrong.
Very cool Party there.
-Uriel
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As long as the DM is consistent, but the summoner class is severely punished for his main strength just being around. Especially since the Summon Monster list is nerfed. Not many spells, weak summons, cannot use his main feature unless it is there already.All in the world. Casting spells in the street..yes..waving weapons around unsheathed..yes.
Druids have the same issue...No you can not bring that bear in here...I don't care if he likes you.
OT:Regarding Druids,and Animal Companions...
Seems that most times I encounter a Druid, either as the DM, a party member, or at a Con, they have a ferocious beast (Obviously), but act like it is just another member of the party, all well-behaved.
Um, no... it is well-behaved towards the DRUID. Towards the rest of the party, it is still a bear (Or whatever), albeit one who has learned a few tricks, can be told 'Stay' etc...
In a 3.5 Campaign a few years back, the Druid decided to leave his animal companion on a ship that they party had commissioned,while they went ashore to explore some ruins.
When they returned... they found the entire crew on the deck, terrified(In the Winter as well), shivering. Below, the very upset Ape was making a shambles of the place. The Druid's player laughed and said 'Oh, guess I should have chained up up). One of the other PCs had thought it funny,at an earlier point, to slip the Ape some booze. When the Druid left, the Ape found the cask of whiskey...
Anyways, it was pretty funny, and the hungover Ape the next day, pausing to get sick, lashing out at whatever PC was 'Provoking AoOps (Non-lethal) as they traveled overland was even more hilarious.
On the Druids,and Animal Companions... Well played sir, well played.
I guess I can throw in my two cents on this, as I am also playing a summoner with an eilodon. This eilodon is not built for combat by any stretch, as it is a Small Serpentine creature. Some skills it has is Acrobatics, Stealth, and Sleight of Hand. The reason why is the Summoner needed something to help her escape (she was held prisoner in an Abyssal plane) so that is why she created him the way she did.
Not all eilodons are used for combat purposes, I am happy to say. In fact, the eilodon (Grak) has made quite a difference in the PbP he is in. In one instance, he was hidden and watching a high level assassin we had captured, as we suspected the assassin would figure out a way to escape. He saw someone free her, and it soon led to the discovery of treachery by the Count of the city we were staying in.
In another instance, he proved his worth by tracking down another party member who had been knocked unconscious by some attackers, and he was rescued by a lieutenant of a Thieves Guild which had been a thorn in the side of the city. Keep in mind he was trying to ingratiate himself into the guild so we could find their base. It allowed the rest of the party to mount a quick rescue. The party took heavy damage during the rescue, and as a matter of fact, if that Lieutenant had not recognized the eilodon, who had been watching the guy, we would have been all wiped out.
The moral of the story is, eilodons can make a difference even though they are not combat gods.
I guess I can throw in my two cents on this, as I am also playing a summoner with an eilodon. This eilodon is not built for combat by any stretch, as it is a Small Serpentine creature. Some skills it has is Acrobatics, Stealth, and Sleight of Hand. The reason why is the Summoner needed something to help her escape (she was held prisoner in an Abyssal plane) so that is why she created him the way she did.
Not all eilodons are used for combat purposes, I am happy to say. In fact, the eilodon (Grak) has made quite a difference in the PbP he is in. In one instance, he was hidden and watching a high level assassin we had captured, as we suspected the assassin would figure out a way to escape. He saw someone free her, and it soon led to the discovery of treachery by the Count of the city we were staying in.
In another instance, he proved his worth by tracking down another party member who had been knocked unconscious by some attackers, and he was rescued by a lieutenant of a Thieves Guild which had been a thorn in the side of the city. Keep in mind he was trying to ingratiate himself into the guild so we could find their base. It allowed the rest of the party to mount a quick rescue. The party took heavy damage during the rescue, and as a matter of fact, if that Lieutenant had not recognized the eilodon, who had been watching the guy, we would have been all wiped out.
The moral of the story is, eilodons can make a difference even though they are not combat gods.
As both a GM and Story based player I love players that forgo optimization over a cool theme it makes the game a lot more fun.
The Pathfinder version of Book of the Summoner will be out shortly, and will include a load of pre-set eidolons, which should help DM and player alike deal with the eidolons with a minimum of work and angst.
...hopefully!
You can just buy a Hat of Disguise if the player is worried his Ediolon will be reacted to badly (pretty cheap item).
This tactic is easiest when the party is low level and thus has no appreciable gear. Death would, in these cases, cost more by a large margin. If you give half your gear to your eidolon and NOT sacrificing them would cause a death, then it is still the preferred tactic at least through level 2, if not 3 or 4.
The tactic is also more commonly needed at low level, where a slightly-abnormal CR difference is more likely to be an issue that would press the party into fleeing.
+1.
The summoner PC in a game I'm running has gotten great mileage out of this at low level in exactly this kind of situation. Retreat through a choke point when they're in over their heads and the eidolon holds it as long as it can while they make a run for it.
If the eidolon is beyond 100 feet but closer than 1,000 feet, its current and maximum hit point totals are reduced by 50%. If the eidolon is more than 1,000 feet away but closer than 10,000 feet, its current and maximum hit point totals are reduced by 75%. If the eidolon is more than 10,000 feet away, it is immediately returned to its home plane. Current hit points lost in this way are not restored when the eidolon gets closer to its summoner, but its maximum hit point total does return to normalq
depending on how fast the summoner runs away--the eidelon will die quick
Way to bring back a post from 16 months ago!