Personally I think their are jsut too few points in the pool itself. The magus seems to be focused around this mechanic but I get so very very little to use. I imagine there'll be a feat to increase this.
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I disagree with the assessment that they don't have enough points. It works exactly the same way as it does for similar classes and I believe it should stay that way for solidarity and consistency purposes.
If a player wants more points to do these things more times a day I guarantee there will be an "Extra Arcane Pool" feat, and you can take that. I am getting the feeling that people are trying to play the Magus like a spontaneous spellcaster and THIS is why they are running out of points so fast. If you don't have the right spell prepared for the day, then you aren't being picky enough, or you are being reckless with your limited resources.
That being said I do think some of the ways to "spend" the points are a bit expensive, such as dispelling strike and reflection. I think they might be better done as having a baseline cost of 2 rather than scaling for each spell level.
I disagree with the assessment that they don't have enough points. It works exactly the same way as it does for similar classes and I believe it should stay that way for solidarity and consistency purposes.
If a player wants more points to do these things more times a day I guarantee there will be an "Extra Arcane Pool" feat, and you can take that. I am getting the feeling that people are trying to play the Magus like a spontaneous spellcaster and THIS is why they are running out of points so fast. If you don't have the right spell prepared for the day, then you aren't being picky enough, or you are being reckless with your limited resources.
That being said I do think some of the ways to "spend" the points are a bit expensive, such as dispelling strike and reflection. I think they might be better done as having a baseline cost of 2 rather than scaling for each spell level.
no its pretty much weapon enhancements that chew it up.
i never have enough points to even dream about reflection
I look at it like this.
My 7th level magus has about 6 points of arcane pool. I can only recharge it when i memorize spells.
Now my damage isn't coming from multiple attacks or two handed hits. So I need to buff my weapon every combat. Plus I need to buff myself since I have a minus two to my attacks plus I need to make concentration checks to cast defensively (already hard). Oh and I lack a full BaB on top of this so the attack boosting arcana starts to become necessary. At lower levels it's even worse.
By the time I get to other neat parts I'm already running out of points. The spells are nice but if i'm not throwing them out without being in combat i probably have no business even being a magus. I could dispel or reflect a spell every once in a while but I'm basically blowing a ton of points.
Never mind that my buddy the Paladin is smiting evil without worry about making concentration checks. Or my buddy the cleric is in medium armor and is a full spellcaster. The monk has a Ki Pool but doesn't need it as much. He's basically spending it to either get offensive or defensive where required.
In my mind getting that extra arcane pool is going to turn out to be necessary.
I think the necessary feat for the magus is bastard sword, or maybe a dwarf magus with dwarf axe, then you dont even burn the feat)
when you are spell casting/spell combat-ing you have a one handed weapon and a free hand, when your not doing that you can go 2 hand fighting.
the ability to get extra damage from the bigger weapon and go 2 handed is a big deal at lower levels when you run out of spells early and dont have many arcane points.
ANY weapon but Light Weapons can gain the 2-Handed damage bonus (e.g. Scimitar)
Bastard Sword / Dwarven Axe are just a nice bump to base damage (which Magus´ will rarely exploit via Vital Strike because that doesn´t work with Spell Combat/Spellstrike, so it becomes even less an attractive Feat option)
For everything besides Spell Combat the Magus well CAN benefit from 2-Handed dmg bonus.
I can´t remember off-hand if Spellstrike has the same wording as Spell Combat (requiring 1-handed weapon), but even if it does, it´s still compatable with Casting a Spell and then delivering the attack + touch effect later via an AoO or in a subsequent round (with 2-hands).
Arcane Strike and Weapon Bond can generally make up for the difference in STR needed to invest in a half-way decent INT. Qualifying for Fighter Feats is nice for Weapon Spec - Though I don´t see why this ability isn´t brought down to even 2nd level.
ANY weapon but Light Weapons can gain the 2-Handed damage bonus (e.g. Scimitar)
Bastard Sword / Dwarven Axe are just a nice bump to base damage (which Magus´ will rarely exploit via Vital Strike because that doesn´t work with Spell Combat/Spellstrike, so it becomes even less an attractive Feat option)For everything besides Spell Combat the Magus well CAN benefit from 2-Handed dmg bonus.
I can´t remember off-hand if Spellstrike has the same wording as Spell Combat (requiring 1-handed weapon), but even if it does, it´s still compatable with Casting a Spell and then delivering the attack + touch effect later via an AoO or in a subsequent round (with 2-hands).Arcane Strike and Weapon Bond can generally make up for the difference in STR needed to invest in a half-way decent INT. Qualifying for Fighter Feats is nice for Weapon Spec - Though I don´t see why this ability isn´t brought down to even 2nd level.
most magus builds ive seen focus on dex builds and thus use finessable weapons, which cant be used to two hand in battle (unless they are already exotic weapons themselves like elven curve blade) . So instead of weapon fineese i suggest bastard sword, besides it looks cooler.
A
Arcane Strike and Weapon Bond can generally make up for the difference in STR needed to invest in a half-way decent INT.
The problem here is that it's a swift action that's separate from your arcane pool or arcane accuracy and only lasts a round. Also they don't get weapon bond. They get a familiar. I think what might help them the most might be to have Arcane Accuracy last for rounds equal to int rather than 1 round so im not popping it every time i want to use spellcombat.
In my (admittedly limited) experience running a Magus, it seems like a more complex class that requires a bit of additional work on the player's side. I don't think this is a bad thing. I'd group the Magus with classes like Bard, Inquisitor and Summoner in terms of difficulty to play (which is no too bad).
I think that, like a Bard, a "good" Magus requires a player to use all of its abilities in tandem. Not one at a time. People who think Bard is a terrible class don't know how to play one. Along the same lines, I think that people who think the Arcane Pool is too limited are not using the class's other features enough.
While the Arcane Pool is a prominent class feature of the Magus, I don't think you can say that it completely defines the class (like Bards and Bardic Music). Yes, Bards sing, but they also have spells and combat ability. Same goes for the Magus. In a given encounter, a Magus should use a little of everything just about every round.
no its pretty much weapon enhancements that chew it up.
i never have enough points to even dream about reflection
I don't see this. It cost 1 point to increase a weapon's bonus.
At 1st level, a magus can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as a swift action to grant any weapon he is holding a +1 enhancement bonus for 1 minute. For every four levels beyond 1st, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +5 at 17th level.
Now, if a player picks only Arcanas that use Pool point, then they will run into a problem. I also think that an "Extra Arcane Pool" feat would be appropriate for such players (+1 to previous proponents).
The Arcane Pool adds reliability, staying power, and versatility to the Magus. As a prepared caster, this goes a long way to increase the appeal of the class. Using the Arcane Pool should not be the only think a Magus does; it should be part of a strategy that includes physical attacks and spell-casting (spell combat).
Trying to play a Magus like a pure caster by using the Arcane Pool may be useful at times, but will ultimately fail if used as a primary strategy because the Magus is not a Wizard. The Arcane Pool should be used to augment the physical aspect of the Magus' strategy and for rare "Oh Crap" moments when silver bullet spells can save the day.
Also, Falcata rules in one-handed pwnage.
/end my opinion
Along the same lines, I think that people who think the Arcane Pool is too limited are not using the class's other features enough.
The trouble here is that the other class features don't precisely mesh together well. The arcane pool is meant as a way to fill in those gaps and put them on par with a full spellcaster or melee combatant. Also note that a lot of features also chew through this pool. Here's a brief summary of costs.
Arcane Pool (Enhancement): 1 point per encounter to buff for one minute
Arcanas:
Arcane Accuracy: 1 point for 1 turn (not 1 round) buff to attack equal to int.
Dispelling Strike: 1 point per spell level to dispel.
Hasted Assault: 1 point for haste buff for 1 round/int.
Pool Strike: 1 point for 1 attack.
Reflection: 1pt per spell level being reflected.
Spell Shield: 1pt Immediate Action int buff to AC.
Pool Spell: 1 pt per level of spell +1 point per level of metamagic
Knowledge Pool: 1 point per spell
Now take into account that the average number of encounters is somewhere around 3 a day. More or less than depending on the game. Assuming you use every trick in the book and only ever spellcombat when necessary and use the 5ft shift trick (which I honestly feel is against the spirit of the class). You're going to end up using three at least. Likely more if you are using Arcane Accuracy to make up for the Magus's very poor attack.
At later levels as the spells and his stats Improve this becomes less of an issue and during the first couple of levels you won't be doing much spell combat anyway. The issue I think comes in the mid levels where you'll want to be doing more of those things that make you, well, you.
Now the other things in question, aside from spellstrike, are there mostly to give him armor or improve his spellcasting not necessarily make him workable at both.
I imagine certain builds, namely switch hitters and skirmishers, require very few points. But I think if the goal of this class is to seamlessly mesh spellcasting and melee combat together than I think some more thought should go into that.
As a switch hitter I can't say I'm dissatisfied, tossing out spells and then slapping someone upside the head with a two handed sword buffed with Scorching Ray + Pool Strike + Power Attack and Arcane Pool sounds like maniacal laughter from across the game table.
I think the issue is if 3-4 more arcane pool points tips the scales and unbalances the class?Three or four extra points isn't the issue. Most people I see want Arcane Points equal to level plus Int. That's nearly double the amount that they currently get.
If the Magus were to get any more Points I would suggest just one at 2nd level, similar to the bonus feat progression of a Fighter. It's a bit of action for one more fight in a day but not so many as other people want.
I agree with they need a few more points. I think the Formula should be 1+ half your lvl (no rounding) and an extra point could be added in at two other levels (maybe 8 and 16). Its just really brutal at the low levels with a small pool.
Also Dispel is far to expensive, Reflex is very powerful so i can see it being left but you burn too many points if you try using your arcane pool for dispelling
In my (admittedly limited) experience running a Magus, it seems like a more complex class that requires a bit of additional work on the player's side. I don't think this is a bad thing. I'd group the Magus with classes like Bard, Inquisitor and Summoner in terms of difficulty to play (which is no too bad).
I think that, like a Bard, a "good" Magus requires a player to use all of its abilities in tandem. Not one at a time. People who think Bard is a terrible class don't know how to play one. Along the same lines, I think that people who think the Arcane Pool is too limited are not using the class's other features enough.
While the Arcane Pool is a prominent class feature of the Magus, I don't think you can say that it completely defines the class (like Bards and Bardic Music). Yes, Bards sing, but they also have spells and combat ability. Same goes for the Magus. In a given encounter, a Magus should use a little of everything just about every round.
no its pretty much weapon enhancements that chew it up.
i never have enough points to even dream about reflection
I don't see this. It cost 1 point to increase a weapon's bonus.
** spoiler omitted **
I'm not sure what kind of gauntlets your DM sends you through, but I think the Magus has enough of an Arcane Pool to use about 1-3 points per encounter (1 at lower levels, then more at higher ones). I think using more than that means the Magus is not using enough of his other abilities (which are also great).Now, if a player picks only Arcanas that use Pool point, then they will run into a problem. I also think that an "Extra Arcane Pool" feat would be appropriate for such players (+1 to previous proponents).
The...
@averus
there is more to add to your weapon that just +1
it only lasts for 1 minute
I have a 6th level magus with a +1 keen Falcata and I have 7 arcane pool points
If I want to enhance my weapon (say because I either want more damage or the inquisitor in the group tells us its vulnerable to fire, or electricity or whatnot) thats 1 point for 4 rounds, and what if I wanted vorpal or speed? it would be more.
A decent fight where I am in need of a weapon enhancement is going to last several rounds, so... your looking at a minimum of 2 points (if say I just wanted flamming)
So lets say encounter #1 used 2 points.
Encounter #2 the same decent, fight no uber boss, 2 points.
Encounter #3 boss fight, I have 4 points remaining.
up to this point I have only added en effect to my weapon for the duration of the battle.
Let's say I make the +1 Keen Falcata , a +2 shocking burst weapon, for 1 minute, Ive just used 3 points for 4 rounds, that means I only have 1 point left for pool strike.
so that's nice and all, but bear in my I have an 18 intelligence. I didnt use arcane accuracy (in fact I stay away from it) because it lasts only one round, and I didnt do any of the other stuff thats available.
Something like reflect could use most or ALL of your arcane pool.
and reflect sounds like a point dump to me, here is why:
the wording of "if the spell level is equal to the number of points expended"
how do you know the level of the spell? a Really good spellcraft roll (it could be maximized, heightened, quickened or something else)
But lets say Fireball, ok so I burn three points, but if it was maximized or heightened etc etc, all I won was an insight bonus to my saving throw.
So what if I take a chance and say burn 5 points on that spell, but only needed 4?
It's a point dump... circumstances are never going to be ideal and too much of a chance to be under or over the points needed.
If it read that you use the ability and spend the points as you need them (lets say the spell hits and drain 4 from your arcane pool and you had 5... ok, but if you only had three in there then they are all drained and you get a +3 save) then ok.
but as it reads it sounds like a guessing game.
so I dunno.
Most Magus characters are likely going to have a 16 int. so thats half level +2, so for my character 5 points.
Things like arcane accuracy, reflection or pool spell are going to gobble those points in a hurry.
I could do pool spell and reflection once, and my pool is gone. Right now, poof.
I really just stick to pool strike and enhance weapon, unless I want a one trick wonder for the day. I try to conserve my points in case I need pool spell, but as of yet have not used it.
Arcanas:
Arcane Accuracy: 1 point for 1 turn (not 1 round) buff to attack equal to int.
A magus with this magus arcana can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as a swift action to grant himself an insight bonus equal to his Intelligence bonus on all attack rolls until the end of his turn
seems it is only for a single round you get this bonus, which does make it quite expensive (unless it's a house rule or a different ruling somewhere that's clarified it?) Every reference to "end of his turn" or similar phrasing seems to apply to stuff like bleeding (every round), flying (how to end movement), movement (5-foot steps from abilities getting subtracted from movement next round)...
In which case for a class that need +hitroll, it is a very costly arcana that can quickly eat up points.
stuff
Im little confused when i read this. It sounds like your spending more than 1 point of your pool to enchant your weapon. You only need to spend 1 point; then for the next min your weapon gets a set number of bonus enchantment depending on your level. This would leave your 6th lvl Magus with 4 Arcane pts to ration across his 3 encounters after increasing the enchantment on his weapon for each. I would say thats not too bad except for everything else that uses Arcane pts is very expensive, (ie dispel/reflex)or has short duration (Arcane accuracy)
@Slacker2010 - Yeah, I was trying to illustrate that.
@Pendagast - One point gets you a static (and ever increasing) number of enhancement bonus to play with.
@TarkXT - A Magus doesn't have that bad of an attack. He should also be using tricky spells to get enemies off their game. Go Invisible and you'll rarely miss. The Magus shouldn't rely solely on his Arcane Pool to augment his combat ability. Spells! Buffs! Tactics!
Hasted Assault is awesome, but to be a team player, a Magus PC should probably opt for the Haste spell.
@Slacker2010 - Yeah, I was trying to illustrate that.
@Pendagast - One point gets you a static (and ever increasing) number of enhancement bonus to play with.
@TarkXT - A Magus doesn't have that bad of an attack. He should also be using tricky spells to get enemies off their game. Go Invisible and you'll rarely miss. The Magus shouldn't rely solely on his Arcane Pool to augment his combat ability. Spells! Buffs! Tactics!
Hasted Assault is awesome, but to be a team player, a Magus PC should probably opt for the Haste spell.
@slacker and averus:
RAW:At 5th level, these
bonuses can be used to
add any of the following
weapon properties: dancing,
f laming, f laming burst, frost,
icy burst, keen, shock, shocking
burst, speed, or vorpal. Adding
these properties consumes an
amount of bonus equal to the
property’s cost.
That's more than just one point
Just going to pipe in here with my opinion.
I dislike the Arcane Pool as well. Not because the mechanics dont work or confuse me or anything. The reason I dont like it is it very much is an after-the-fact add on. D&D/Pathfinder already has a system of arcane magic. One that the Wizard is supposed to be the master of, with the sorcerer following closely behind. Now come an upstart dabbler in magic that fights and practices magic. Yet hes gets the arcane pool that neither the Sorcerer nor the Wizard have. They are the masters of arcane magic. Why does the Magus trump them in both physical prowess and mystical versitility.
Can the Wizard take feats to gain access to an arcane pool? Basically its a mechanic that they added for benefit of the class but it really doens't fit with the established fluff of the other arcane casters. It feels very added on after the fact rather then developed to fit in with the current system/practices.
It just doesnt seem to fit well in my opinion, either game mechanics wise or Story wise.
I much prefered the burning of spell slots. If previous arcana powers didnt give enough bang for the buck per the spell slots expended I would have much prefered they simple upgraded those arcana powers.
If they are going to go so far as to add arcana pools they can be used to cast addition spells. Why not just switch over entirely to a spell point system in general.
I could hardly say "sorcerors are masters of arcane magic", thats a title for the wizard.
Sorcerors come about their power by inheritance, they dont master it.Bards cast arcanely but different, yet there are spells the bard casts that the wizard can never learn (arcane healing??)
conversely the witch also has arcane spells the wizard cant have (arcane healing once again!) she also has hexes neither the wizard nor the sorceror gain access to, yet are still quite arcane.
We also dont know what else is in Ultimate magic, I for one would not mind seeing feats of mechanics for the wizard (and the wizard only) to gain access to hexes, arcane pools or arcane healing via arcane study.
Think about it, wizards created the first spell lists simply through study, why couldnt they learn new stuff that doesnt fall in their daily envelope?
So yes, they should get a feat or mechanic allowing them to adopt other arcane abilites/spells.
But that doesnt mean the other classes could not have developed something unique or separate. Just means wizards in general havent studied it yet.
most magus builds ive seen focus on dex builds and thus use finessable weapons, which cant be used to two hand in battle (unless they are already exotic weapons themselves like elven curve blade) .
That´s not quite accurate. Light Weapons and Rapiers can´t gain the 1.5 STR bonus for 2-Handing. Whips/Scorpion Whips and Spiked Chains can, and so can any other Finesse weapon if it doesn´t have the wording preventing that, there´s nothing inherent to Weapon Finesse that prevents that. And even if you´re not benefitting from the 1.5 STR bonus, you still benefit from the higher Power Attack ratio when wielding 2 Handed.
As for the first point, I don´t know what to say, but it seems like it´s viable to buff STR more than DEX, and if you give up on enemies failing their Saves, INT doesn´t have to be too high either. Reach (Enlarge Person or with Reach Weapon you don´t use with Spell Combat) is perhaps more of an ´offensive defense´ than AC, but it seems viable to me. Weapon Cords seem a good option if you think you might want to switch between Reach/Non-Reach weapons on a regular basis. /my2c
most magus builds ive seen focus on dex builds and thus use finessable weapons, which cant be used to two hand in battle (unless they are already exotic weapons themselves like elven curve blade) .That´s not quite accurate. Light Weapons and Rapiers can´t gain the 1.5 STR bonus for 2-Handing. Whips/Scorpion Whips and Spiked Chains can, and so can any other Finesse weapon if it doesn´t have the wording preventing that, there´s nothing inherent to Weapon Finesse that prevents that. And even if you´re not benefitting from the 1.5 STR bonus, you still benefit from the higher Power Attack ratio when wielding 2 Handed.
As for the first point, I don´t know what to say, but it seems like it´s viable to buff STR more than DEX, and if you give up on enemies failing their Saves, INT doesn´t have to be too high either. Reach (Enlarge Person or with Reach Weapon you don´t use with Spell Combat) is perhaps more of an ´offensive defense´ than AC, but it seems viable to me. Weapon Cords seem a good option if you think you might want to switch between Reach/Non-Reach weapons on a regular basis. /my2c
again, that would be one of those rules lawyerly RAWs : "It doesnt say I can't, so I can" RAI is quite different. Rapier and dagger are the icons for this, things like elf curve blade are exceptions.
Spiked chain has always been a semi broken weapon since day one.It should really be a double weapon from every rule book drawing of it ive seen. But its listed as a two handed weapon, only because it takes up two hands (one to hold it one to swing) it is not however , in a sense a two handed weapon, you cant get extra oomph on it by using two hands, its a chain, it gets its damage from centrifugal force, try using something like that and get extra damage or swing from two hands.
And using a whip two handed to get extra damage? cmon!
1) HOW would you use it with finesse once you get both your paws involved?
2) thats just breaking all sorts of RAI just to get some more damage out of something that isnt intended that way.
you can't just run down a list of things where something wasn't expressedly written to make sure you didnt do it, and use it an an example of rules.
I know of no gaming table in 24 years ive played at that would invite anyone back to play another time, if they insisted on getting 1.5 str damage from using a whip 2 handed. Not to mention Ive never even seen anyone ever try it.
One that the Wizard is supposed to be the master of, with the sorcerer following closely behind. Now come an upstart dabbler in magic that fights and practices magic. Yet hes gets the arcane pool that neither the Sorcerer nor the Wizard have. They are the masters of arcane magic. Why does the Magus trump them in both physical prowess and mystical versitility.
Physical prowess because the Magus is a melee. Mystical versatility... well, considering the reduced spell selection (and high cost of going beyond it), slower spell progression plus the cap at 6th level spells, you could hardly say the Magus is surpassing other arcane users.
What the magus is good for, and what the arcane pool helps accomplish, is rapidly deployed physical+magical combined oompf. At a cost of versatility and sustained oompf.
@ Pendergast:
"These bonuses and properties
are decided when the arcane pool point is spent and
cannot be changed until the next time the magus uses
this ability."
I'm pretty sure that one point gets you the bonuses listed. At higher level you get more bonuses, but the cost stays the same.
At 1st level, the magus gains a
reservoir of mystical arcane energy that he can draw
upon to fuel his powers and enhance his weapon. This
arcane pool has a number of points equal to 1/2 his
magus level (minimum 1) + his Intelligence modif ier.
The pool refreshes once each day when the magus
prepares his spells.
At 1st level, a magus can expend 1
point from his arcane pool as a swift
action to grant any weapon he is
holding a +1 enhancement bonus for
1 minute. For every four levels beyond
1st, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement
bonus, to a maximum of +5 at 17th level.
These bonuses can be added to the weapon,
stacking with existing weapon enhancement
to a maximum of +5. This ability counts as
the Arcane Strike feat for meeting any
prerequisites. Multiple uses of this ability
do not stack with themselves.
At 5th level, these
bonuses can be used to
add any of the following
weapon properties: dancing,
flaming, flaming burst, frost,
icy burst, keen, shock, shocking
burst, speed, or vorpal. Adding
these properties consumes an
amount of bonus equal to the
property’s cost (see Table 15–9
of the Core Rulebook). These
properties are added to any
the weapon already has, but
duplicates do not stack. If the
weapon is not magical, at least a +1
enhancement bonus must be added before any other
properties can be added. These bonuses and properties
are decided when the arcane pool point is spent and
cannot be changed until the next time the magus uses
this ability. These bonuses do not function if the weapon
is wielded by anyone other than the magus.
A magus can only enhance one weapon in this way
at one time. If he uses this ability again, the first use
immediately ends.
|
@slacker and averus:
RAW:At 5th level, these
bonuses can be used to
add any of the following
weapon properties: dancing,
f laming, f laming burst, frost,
icy burst, keen, shock, shocking
burst, speed, or vorpal. Adding
these properties consumes an
amount of bonus equal to the
property’s cost.That's more than just one point
You are quoting the wrong part, Pend. The section you want is here:
At 1st level, a magus can expend 1 point from his arcane pool as a swift action to grant any weapon he is holding a +1 enhancement bonus for 1 minute. For every four levels beyond 1st, the weapon gains another +1 enhancement bonus, to a maximum of +5 at 17th level.
Key part bolded. At 5th level, you get another +1 worth of bonus to spend for you 1 arcane pool point spent. It does NOT say you can spend 2 points for a +2 bonus. So at 1-4, 1 point nets +1 bonus, 5-8 1 point nets a +2 bonus, 9-12 1 point nets a +3 bonus, 13-16 1 points nets a +4 and 17+ 1 point nets a +5 bonus.
Otherwise, with your interpretation, you absolutely would need more points to use. But spending 1 point leaves plenty of points left over. Im pretty sure the wording would say "Every 4 levels beyond first, you may spend an additional arcane pool point to gain another +1 bonus." if thats how they intended it.
*EDIT* Jake hit up on the other point I was going to edit in after I had missed it originally. More wording to support the 1 point for the entire bonus theory.
@Averus: What buffs? True Strike lasts one attack. Magic Weapon doesn't work well with your arcane pool (though it does save points if you don't care for the enhancements). Transformation is just plain lousy for the magus. The invisibility thing is a misconception. You'll catch them flatfooted but not necessarily with low AC. Most monsters past cr3 are almost all natural armor and those that aren't usually don't mind your invisibility since they see you anyway. In the end my best and most reliable buff to my attack roll is Bulls Strength which doesn't stack with items and doesn't scale with level.
Considering the designer himself has stated that the Magus's spell lsit is not meant to be buff heavy. Hell yes you rely on that arcane pool to hit reliably. If I'm having to Flank, Debuff, and Combat Maneuver my opponents AC down to a manageable level than I'm already miles behind everyone else. When a fighter uses combat maneuvers or full attacks he has a full BAB to back it up, when a Rogue sneak attacks he gets his full bab with no penalty, when a Monk flurry of blows he gets a full Bab minus that penalty. When a paladin smites evil he gets bonuses, not penalties. The magus however, comes with a signature ability, the ability that makes him more than a 1-20 eldritch knight, that has him swinging at -2 and forcing him to either roll a fifteen or better on cantrips in order to use this ability.
Now the one ability that would make this actually work (Arcane Accuracy) and make using this key ability actually useful has such a limited and necessary use that it's essentially all I'm using it for, those other abilities that use it might as well be blank.
Now I understand there are tricks around this. I can 5ft shift in between the spell and attack and even get to use my spellstrike to do it. To me though this feels against the spirit of the class. I'm supposed to be wading into battle swinging sword and spell, not stepping in and out for quick smoke breaks.
And to me the solution is remarkably simple. I have two fixes right here.
1. Make spell combat work like flurry of blows. Let the Magus have a full bab while using it. Simple. He doesn't get it while making normal attacks or while spellcasting, only while using the ability that makes a magus a fighter/wizard.
2. Make the pool slightly bigger, or alternatively, give me a way to recharge it. I like the idea of an ability that lets me suck out charges or uses out of magic items. Maybe everytime I use a scroll or wand it adds oen point back to the pool. Or maybe I can blow a spell slot or two to get temporary points in the pool.
@Pendaghast: Actually you only ever spend one point. 1 point grants you multiple bonuses every 4 levels after 1. So at 5th you get +2 at 9th you get +3 and so on. Multiple uses don't stack.
goofy.
the wording could be better I guess then, so its basically the paladins divine bond on a budget?
I thought you had to pop one point for one plus and another if you wanted abilites... Lol i kinda like my way better, but with more points.
On the bright side i guess maybe i got point for reflect now,,,its a cool ability, works way better than counter spell.
goofy.
the wording could be better I guess....
I doubt you're the first to interpret the ability that way. I needed a couple of passes to see it myself.
This version of the Magus is pretty solid, but some of the wording could definitely be a little tighter.
Of course, that's what a play test is all about....
@Averus: What buffs? True Strike lasts one attack. Magic Weapon doesn't work well with your arcane pool (though it does save points if you don't care for the enhancements). Transformation is just plain lousy for the magus. The invisibility thing is a misconception. You'll catch them flatfooted but not necessarily with low AC. Most monsters past cr3 are almost all natural armor and those that aren't usually don't mind your invisibility since they see you anyway. In the end my best and most reliable buff to my attack roll is Bulls Strength which doesn't stack with items and doesn't scale with level.
I think the claim that every CR3+ monster has a way to render Invisibility useless is a bit of an overstatement.
Also, Invisibility grants a +2 to hit a creature that can't see them in addition to hitting a flat-footed AC (pg 195 Core Rulebook). So, even if their Flat-Footed AC = their regular AC, you still get a +2 to hit.
As far as other buffs, I guess I included Pool-based abilities under this category, but Haste, Bull's Strength and anything you pick up via Spell Blending.
Considering the designer himself has stated that the Magus's spell lsit is not meant to be buff heavy. Hell yes you rely on that arcane pool to hit reliably.
Yes, the Arcane Pool helps the Magus hit reliably. However, I feel the amount given is sufficient. The Magus has to regulate its resources just like a Wizard.
If I'm having to Flank, Debuff, and Combat Maneuver my opponents AC down to a manageable level than I'm already miles behind everyone else.
The Magus is an Intelligence-based melee class and should be played as such, making the best use of the class's abilities and the combat conditions. To me, this means moving around tactical, avoiding AoOs/Concentration with the ol' 5' step, disabling them with a spell and getting your Flank on.
The Magus is not a Fighter. He should use tricks (Color Spray, Grease, Invisibility, Web, Slow, Black Tentacles, Greater Invisibility, etc) to grant him (and his allies) bonuses (or penalties to enemies). No reason not to be hitting a stunned or flat-footed or flanked or otherwise impaired enemy all the time.
When a fighter uses combat maneuvers or full attacks he has a full BAB to back it up, when a Rogue sneak attacks he gets his full bab with no penalty, when a Monk flurry of blows he gets a full Bab minus that penalty. When a paladin smites evil he gets bonuses, not penalties. The magus however, comes with a signature ability, the ability that makes him more than a 1-20 eldritch knight, that has him swinging at -2 and forcing him to either roll a fifteen or better on cantrips in order to use this ability.
Maneuver Mastery Arcana. Lots of Rogues are Two-Weapon fighters that suffer the same issues that the Magus does. Monks have a boat load of issues to deal with. A paladin's smite is "better" because it only affects a subgroup of enemies.
I think you are misunderstanding the niche the Magus fills in a group. He's not a full-blown tank, capable of wading into combat carelessly. I don't think it was ever marketed as such. He's a clever combatant. He'll soften his enemies up or boost his own team. He'll strike decisively. He maneuvers cautiously and isn't against disappearing admit his foes (via some Invis spell).
On a related topic, consider the Arcane Weapon ability:
Lv1, 1 Pool Point, BaB +0, Bonus +1
Lv5, 1 Pool Point, BaB +3, Bonus +2
Lv9, 1 Pool Point, BaB +6, Bonus +3
...
One pool point can raise the Magus' to hit to being equal to his level like a Fighter.
But wait! A fighter can buy a magic weapon too!
Yes, but so can the Magus. Then the Magus can send this bonus to damage. The Fighter has to take a penalty to hit to get big damage (via Power Attack or Deadly Aim). The Magus has a lower to hit to begin with but gets to add freely to hit and damage.
Considering a Fighter should always be better at fighting, a Magus holds his own and has the tricks to set him apart from the other melee-oriented classes.
I am currently playing a magus in my gaming group. At level 5 I have no issues with the amount of Arcane Pool points I have. They are an additional ability, not the main class feature. Between, spell combat, spell strike, regular spells, and using my combat feats, I have plenty to do besides use my pool points every round. In addition I love the game mechanics and everything about the magus at this point, I would hate to see it change much from where it is at now. PFinder crew you have made a gamer very happy once again, I think I have a new favorite class :)
The Pool works best as a sorc ability, not a magus ability.
Save this until PF 2.0 or make a series of prestige classes/ feat trees that use the pool.
A Magus is a combat caster. It's abilities should focus on casting in combat and spontaneously enchanting their arms and armor while avoiding anything the eldrith knight can do. Yes, the Pool is awesome and fun and powerful, but it's on the wrong class.
What if, during the playtest rogues and/or fighters got the ki pool instead of monks? I hope that thought gives everyone a little better perspective.
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The Pool works best as a sorc ability, not a magus ability.
Save this until PF 2.0 or make a series of prestige classes/ feat trees that use the pool.
A Magus is a combat caster. It's abilities should focus on casting in combat and spontaneously enchanting their arms and armor while avoiding anything the eldrith knight can do. Yes, the Pool is awesome and fun and powerful, but it's on the wrong class.
What if, during the playtest rogues and/or fighters got the ki pool instead of monks? I hope that thought gives everyone a little better perspective.
[the_dude]Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man. [/the_dude]
I disagree. I think the problem most people seem to have is the allowance for spontaneous spell casting mixed in with the wizard-like preparation. I personally like the idea, gives the class some flexibility at the expense of power. Need to cast that level 3 spell at 7th level? Go for it, but you've lost 3 of your points, which depending on your build could be half your pool, and you don't have a lot of them to go around. It affects your abilities for the rest of the day. I could see the problem if it allowed liberal use of spontaneous casts AND abilities powered by the pool, but right now its a little something nice this class gets that makes them decide how they are going to allocate their resources for the day.
@Kabump - I don't think you fully understood my point. Yes the spell pool is good, gawd I even said that, but it doesn't belong to the Magus.
The pool is a non-vancian magic system which is how words of power should have worked. The pool to the magus is the monks ki pool to a fighter. It doesn't belong.
Again, since this needs to be repeated, the magus is a combat spellcaster who should be able to enchant their arms and armor on the fly. The arcane pool should be either saved for sorc in PF 2.0 or made into prestige classes/feat trees.
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@Kabump - I don't think you fully understood my point. Yes the spell pool is good, gawd I even said that, but it doesn't belong to the Magus.
The pool is a non-vancian magic system which is how words of power should have worked. The pool to the magus is the monks ki pool to a fighter. It doesn't belong.
Again, since this needs to be repeated, the magus is a combat spellcaster who should be able to enchant their arms and armor on the fly. The arcane pool should be either saved for sorc in PF 2.0 or made into prestige classes/feat trees.
No, I completely understood your point, and I disagree with you when you say the magus shouldn't have it.
And as I said, it seems its not the Arcane pool you have a problem with, rather the ability to spontaneously cast with that arcane pool. There is a difference. Its a good mechanic for "enchanting their arms and armor on the fly", as you want the class to be able to do. The thing is, they CAN do this, just not on armor currently. I agree that an arcana to enhance their armor with the arcane pool would be a nice option. The pool is used for MORE than spontaneous casting. You want it gone because of 1 thing of many it can do, rather than wanting to remove the one thing. That doesnt make sense to me.
So again, your issue seems to be that the magus can spontaneously cast with the pool, not that they have the pool itself. That is why I don't agree with your analogies, at all.
I am stating I don't think thats an issue, it gives the magus something unique, a reason to BE a magus rather than an EK.
I think the claim that every CR3+ monster has a way to render Invisibility useless is a bit of an overstatement.
Also, Invisibility grants a +2 to hit a creature that can't see them in addition to hitting a flat-footed AC (pg 195 Core Rulebook). So, even if their Flat-Footed AC = their regular AC, you still get a +2 to hit.
That's still not much and goes away once they hit, Greater Invisbility not withstanding.
It's a tad of an overstatement I'll admit but even your common peasant farmer can defeat invisibility with relative ease. By the time you get up to Cr10 most critters can cast spells to defeat it or outright know where you are.
As far as other buffs, I guess I included Pool-based abilities under this category, but Haste, Bull's Strength and anything you pick up via Spell Blending.
Actually you kind of have a point here. There are soem rather good buffs you can grab with this. Sadly though I'm still putting a bandaid on them. And I'm still using an Arcana slot on it so getting something like Reflection or dispelling strike may end up being a moot point.
Yes, the Arcane Pool helps the Magus hit reliably. However, I feel the amount given is sufficient. The Magus has to regulate its resources just like a Wizard.
The difference is a Wizard is regulating his resources at Wal-Mart while I'm working with mom and pops corner store (we sell malt beverages!). His resources are also far easier to manage since all he's really doing is casting spells and avoiding pain. I'm casting spells and fighting which is a different bird.
The Magus is an Intelligence-based melee class and should be played as such, making the best use of the class's abilities and the combat conditions. To me, this means moving around tactical, avoiding AoOs/Concentration with the ol' 5' step, disabling them with a spell and getting your Flank on.
The Magus is not a Fighter. He should use tricks (Color Spray, Grease, Invisibility, Web, Slow, Black...
Oh, so you mean a Bard? I kid, I kid. The point is these are things other classes are already doing in the group only with full spellcasting, full bab, or other tricks that put them above and beyond anything the magus can accomplish. Heck even the bard who's not that great of a fighter or spellcaster makes up for it with a magnificent array of skills and utility.
We're not trying to play Bard 2.0 we're trying to get Magus v0.5 to Magus v1. We don't want to play a Fighter with spells or a Wizard with combat abilities. We want to play a Magus. A guy whose spells and sword swings are one and the same. He doesn't dance around the battlefield muttering and hoping Grok the Gutgouger, King of Ogres doesn't tap him upside the head (Funny thing did you know the 5ft shift trick fails the moment you come against anything with reach?) while he gets that spell going before or after mildly annoying him with a light breeze of his sword. No the magus is supposed to be able to leap in with steel, heart and spell into the fray.
Right now he's just on the periphery of pulling this off we have the options to do it and do it well from levels 1 to 20. Right now though levels 1-10 are painful and rough. They need that extra bit of juice to bring them just right. Even if I'm just blowing a spell slot or two a day that to me just seems like the right balance.
Really it might come down to a better spell list. More touch spells, better buffs (I know they're not meant to be a buff class but not even heroism? Cmon!), and hopefully the ability to dip into other classes beyond the arcane classes to get some interesting and more unique abilities (Lead Blades and Gravity Bow kthxplz!).
But beyond hitting reliably let's not forget the other reasons to use that pool. Spontaneous casting, Extra Damage, Extra AC, Haste. I think Dispelling strike could really use a discount.
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@Kabump - I don't think you fully understood my point. Yes the spell pool is good, gawd I even said that, but it doesn't belong to the Magus.
The pool is a non-vancian magic system which is how words of power should have worked. The pool to the magus is the monks ki pool to a fighter. It doesn't belong.
Again, since this needs to be repeated, the magus is a combat spellcaster who should be able to enchant their arms and armor on the fly. The arcane pool should be either saved for sorc in PF 2.0 or made into prestige classes/feat trees.
I forgot why I stopped reading this so I popped back on and here you are reminding me.
First of all, I think its an ability which makes the class much more tactical, valuable for an intelligent fighter like the Magus.
Second of all, I don't who gives you the right to unilaterally decide what is and isn't appropriate for a class's abilities. You have an opinion. You can tell it's an opinion because it has no basis in fact. I don't agree with it but that doesn't mean its not a valid. So be happy that your opinion is out there and lets not speak of it again. Yes?
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@Kabump - I don't think you fully understood my point. Yes the spell pool is good, gawd I even said that, but it doesn't belong to the Magus.
The pool is a non-vancian magic system which is how words of power should have worked. The pool to the magus is the monks ki pool to a fighter. It doesn't belong.
Again, since this needs to be repeated, the magus is a combat spellcaster who should be able to enchant their arms and armor on the fly. The arcane pool should be either saved for sorc in PF 2.0 or made into prestige classes/feat trees.
Nice platitudes man. You seem to have forgotten the "I feel" prefix to this post.
I like the idea of using an ability a set number of times per day rather than a pool of points. Maybe I'm just used to that method. That's just how I like it.
I like the points because you can mix an match (alot of low point abilites, one or two high point abilities... id just perfer 3-4 more points in the pool)
The point of this thread is to express a desire to remove the arcane pool in favor of a more elegant and thematic ability. It's easy to imagine how a Monk has a Ki Pool and why only they get that, but an arcane pool? It's not a martially focused ability, so thematically it fails the Magus. It's unique among ALL spellcasting classes and thus, inelegant.
Arcana's work because they're "magical" abilities that act like feats and not spells (many of them actually are feats). This is what should be focused on. The arcane pool is too fun and cool to leave only in the Magus' hands. It should be a feat tree. This way the Magus can acquire a pool through their arcana's.
It simply makes no sense for the Magus to have access to this awesome and flexible system while no other spellcaster has it. The Magus is what we want gishes to be. Front line combatants who cast spells. The arcane pool over enables this while also making them better at spellcasting than both a wizard and sorc. Even if you take away the points for spells option you still have a tacked on mechanic that makes the Magus odd and clunky.
The majority of people have already made up their minds and will continue to refute reason in favor of cool. Can't say I haven't allowed myself to fall victim to this in the past, but in this case those of us against the arcane pool will have to hope Paizo sees reason and makes the pool a feat tree.
Time will tell.
The point of this thread is to express a desire to remove the arcane pool in favor of a more elegant and thematic ability.
What would you suggest? What do you want to see? I see you have a desire for something less clunky and awkward but you haven't exactly gone and defined precisely what makes you feel like that.
You seem to like Arcana's yet many of the abilities require the arcane pool to use. The base ability; the ability to enchant their weapons on the fly would be gone with the removal of the arcane pool, which sort of robs them of a lot of their damage.
You also say that it "over enables" their ability to fight as frontline combatants. Why? Many of the bonuses it grants are surpassed by things like Rage, Smite Evil, spells, or even passive fighter stuff.
The other thing you want, to spread the pool over several trees, is not a good idea. Part of the balancing factor behind the magus is their limited spell list, small amount of spells per day and they can only cast 6th level spells. Essentially, if you already think that they cast better than sorcerers and wizards (a fact which would make my groups wizard laugh himself to tears)why would you give such an unbalancing mechanic to sorcerers and wizards?
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It simply makes no sense for the Magus to have access to this awesome and flexible system while no other spellcaster has it. The Magus is what we want gishes to be. Front line combatants who cast spells. The arcane pool over enables this while also making them better at spellcasting than both a wizard and sorc. Even if you take away the points for spells option you still have a tacked on mechanic that makes the Magus odd and clunky.The majority of people have already made up their minds and will continue to refute reason in favor of cool. Can't say I haven't allowed myself to fall victim to this in the past, but in this case those of us against the arcane pool will have to hope Paizo sees reason and makes the pool a feat tree.
Again, your "reason" is just your opinion. The mechanic is hardly clunky, if you cant track a pool of points and how you spend them, I honestly don't know what to say to you. Ive played most of the classes that have some sort of "pool" involved and I can assure you, it is hardly clunky. This is my opinion, yes, but I doubt I'm in the minority on this. What it does is bring something unique, a reason to play a magus vs an EK.
I also fail to see how a mechanic unique to a class makes it fail. It HARDLY makes the Magus a better caster than a wizard or sorcerer... DCs, things called spells above 6th level, they cant even cast a meta-magiked spell that takes it above 6th level. There are plenty of limitations to hinder their spellcasting.
Im stating my opinion, you are stating your opinion and calling it "reason" and lording it like its obvious. And again, what is obvious and reasonable to you seems silly to me. A magus does NOT cast better than a wiz/sorc and it doesn't fight better than a fighter. What it does is straddle the fence nicely, from what I can tell. But in the end its all opinions.
And for what its worth, I put it at roughly zero percent Paizo drops the pool mechanic. Its an elegant and simple way to track abilities, and I much prefer a pool of resources that requires thought and strategy to manage than getting a set number of uses for your abilities. It seems smoother to me, but again, just stating my opinion.
It simply makes no sense for the Magus to have access to this awesome and flexible system while no other spellcaster has it. The Magus is what we want gishes to be. Front line combatants who cast spells. The arcane pool over enables this while also making them better at spellcasting than both a wizard and sorc. Even if you take away the points for spells option you still have a tacked on mechanic that makes the Magus odd and clunky.The majority of people have already made up their minds and will continue to refute reason in favor of cool. Can't say I haven't allowed myself to fall victim to this in the past, but in this case those of us against the arcane pool will have to hope Paizo sees reason and makes the pool a feat tree.
Again, your "reason" is just your opinion. The mechanic is hardly clunky, if you cant track a pool of points and how you spend them, I honestly don't know what to say to you. Ive played most of the classes that have some sort of "pool" involved and I can assure you, it is hardly clunky. This is my opinion, yes, but I doubt I'm in the minority on this. What it does is bring something unique, a reason to play a magus vs an EK.
I also fail to see how a mechanic unique to a class makes it fail. It HARDLY makes the Magus a better caster than a wizard or sorcerer... DCs, things called spells above 6th level, they cant even cast a meta-magiked spell that takes it above 6th level. There are plenty of limitations to hinder their spellcasting.
Im stating my opinion, you are stating your opinion and calling it "reason" and lording it like its obvious. And again, what is obvious and reasonable to you seems silly to me. A magus does NOT cast better than a wiz/sorc and it doesn't fight better than a fighter. What it does is straddle the fence nicely, from what I can tell. But in the end its all opinions.
And for what its worth, I put it at roughly zero percent Paizo drops the pool mechanic. Its an elegant and simple way to track abilities, and I much...
+1
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I like the points because you can mix an match (alot of low point abilites, one or two high point abilities... id just perfer 3-4 more points in the pool)
Still? Even after your misapprehension about the cost of enhancing your weapon was corrected? What the frak for?
The point of this thread is to express a desire to remove the arcane pool in favor of a more elegant and thematic ability. It's easy to imagine how a Monk has a Ki Pool and why only they get that, but an arcane pool? It's not a martially focused ability, so thematically it fails the Magus. It's unique among ALL spellcasting classes and thus, inelegant.
Arcana's work because they're "magical" abilities that act like feats and not spells (many of them actually are feats). This is what should be focused on. The arcane pool is too fun and cool to leave only in the Magus' hands. It should be a feat tree. This way the Magus can acquire a pool through their arcana's.
It simply makes no sense for the Magus to have access to this awesome and flexible system while no other spellcaster has it. The Magus is what we want gishes to be. Front line combatants who cast spells. The arcane pool over enables this while also making them better at spellcasting than both a wizard and sorc. Even if you take away the points for spells option you still have a tacked on mechanic that makes the Magus odd and clunky.
So wait, your complaint is that no one else has this brand new ability? How do you know other classes won't have this ability later? That there isn't a PrC for other casters that gives the ability?
You seem a decent sort but your objections to this ability are outright bizarre. Bi-frakkin-zarre.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I also disagree with throwing the Magus spell list to the general Wizard list. Limiting by school is for specialist wizards and the Magus is NOT a wizard, he's something different and the spells reflect his particular focus. Most people who have a problem with this are those who are afraid of not getting auto access to spell shinies from 3rd party publishers or Paizo products. The fear in regards to Paizo is misplaced......
I don't mind it, but would rather see it expanded to all base arcane casters.
Psionics POV
By making it open ended, (as my magian's Insightful discovery is) you do allow customization. Sure you might get a magus who totes around wands of cure light wounds, but is that truly traumatic?
I'd rather see the "pool powers" work like Reserve feats from 3.5.
"As long as you have a Magus spell slot of X level or higher available, as a standard action you can..."
Any caster already has plenty of bookkeeping to do; a combat arcanist needs to carefully track hp as well, which he'll be losing more of than his pure arcanist friends. No need to add a third bookkeeping tally on top of those. Given their weak BAB and spellcasting compared to an Eldritch Knight at upper levels, it's really not over the top to change 1 or 2/day class features to "at will, until you use your spells."