Lately my impression has been messageboard postings are more antagonistic and vitriolic. It seems anytime someone wants to discuss "balance" or "rules", that drama quickly follows. Many of the longer threads require Ross Byers to stop in and remove some postings. Has anyone else noticed this trend, or is it just me?
Yes, I know this is an internet messageboard, and I shouldn't expect much, but for a long time I felt this board was different. You could have a discussion where posters completely disagreed, but the thread didn't descend into insults and snark.
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You still get threads like that from time to time, but yes, rules discussions can become contentious.
My personal opinion is that this happens because Rules discussions, particularly, are a fairly black and white topic, much like politics. What I mean by this is: it's impossible for me (for example) to believe that I'm right about a certain rules interpretation without by definition believing you (for example) to be wrong, assuming that your interpretation differs from mine. This is further complicated by the "hey, do whatever lets you have the most fun" crowd, which invariably puts in an appearance.
I don't know what the answer is, other than to say:
1) This place is still much, MUCH better than 99% of forums on the internet, and
2) People just need to be nice to each other.
Can't we all just get along?
I think people have been asking each other that since the beginning of the time of man.
And here I was thinking that this is probably the least drama-filled the Paizo boards have ever been. But then, I tend to frequent the Store area, the 3rd party area, the Kingmaker area and the superstar area.
I just it just depends on which "neighborhoods" you visit regularly.
More antagonistic than when? I seem to recall plenty of antagonism during the Alpha and Beta playtests as well.
Before the PFRPG playtest, I don't think there were as nearly as many rules discussions going on.
Can't we all just get along?
Antagonist! J/K.:)
Well, from what I´m reading on these boards lately, they seem to be pretty much as always - but then, I don´t read many rules discussions as I´m not too interested in that stuff. But it seems that anytimes rules are the topic, tempers flare. A while ago, the 4e area was a minefield (don´t know about today, but that warning is not there for nothing). It seems that people have strong opinions about the rules, so strong as to lose their temper at times.
Stefan
If you see a post that does not adhere to our messageboard posting guidelines (hey, look, they're right there below the text entry box), flag it and move on.
Please and thank you.
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If you see a post that does not adhere to our messageboard posting guidelines (hey, look, they're right there below the text entry box), flag it and move on.
Please and thank you.
What you should set up is every time someone’s post has been flagged the offender should get an email saying.
Your post was flagged; here is a cookie to make you feel better.
Who can post another antagonistic post after getting a cookie, I know I couldn't. If I got a cookie after getting a flag cookie, I could not continue my rant... ;)
What you should set up is every time someone’s post has been flagged the offender should get an email saying.
Your post was flagged; here is a cookie to make you feel better.
Who can post another antagonistic post after getting a cookie, I know I couldn't. If I got a cookie after getting a flag cookie, I could not continue my rant... ;)
A timeout corner with milk and cookies? Hmm...
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If you see a post that does not adhere to our messageboard posting guidelines (hey, look, they're right there below the text entry box), flag it and move on.
Please and thank you.
What you should set up is every time someone’s post has been flagged the offender should get an email saying.
Your post was flagged; here is a cookie to make you feel better.
Who can post another antagonistic post after getting a cookie, I know I couldn't. If I got a cookie after getting a flag cookie, I could not continue my rant... ;)
Yes, but then you'd have people deliberately posting flag-worthy posts just to get cookies. Lilith's cookies are that legendary on these boards.
I have noticed an uptick in aggression in the Pathfinder General discussion forum. Not really anywhere else. I think there are a handful of new posters who adopt a really snarky and often dismissive tone, but the overt aggression tends to come from other posters trying to put that new set in their place.
The best thing to do is avoid those threads. If you must go in, try to be a voice of compassion and remain open-minded. Also, remember, one of the guidelines for posts is "don't be a jerk", so any personally directed hostility is a flaggable offense.
Some of the forum sections are virtually immune to this behavior, especially the Adventure Path forums. It's a pity Runelords is no longer the most active, or I would just hide there all the time like I used to.
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My personal view is. yes their is a slight upswing in this. I think it is mostly due to Pathfinder growing and getting more press so to speak. Which brings more people here. The more people you have the more likely you are to have people just flat not get along.
Add in that gamers tend to be thinkers and passionate. So really it shouldn't be a surprise.
I will say for the size of it, Paizo is hands down the nicest over all forums I have ever been to. The only ones I would rate higher is small forums where you have a few dozen regular posters at most.
*shrug* Just seems to be the way things go.
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I've *always* been antagonist... any non-Chelaxians have a problem with that, eh? ;)
Chelaxian Scum! ;-P
Seriously though, yeah, I noticed a slight uptick, but it seems that both sides were sort of picking for a throwdown. I also noticed a trend of folks posting before reading the entire thread (especially a long one), when the arguments seem to start dying down in a particular thread, it flares up again because someone new posts again without reading the other posts, rinse and repeat.
Dear Paizo Posters,
Haven't any of you heard of 'Asmodeus' Law'? The longer it goes on, the more likely it is that any messageboard thread will be invaded by uptight servants of Asmodeus?
Once that happens all the fun value gets rapidly squeezed out of the thread by those party poopers, and then we servants of the Abyss feel naturally honour-bound to invade to keep Asmodeus' minions from causing too much more damage, and in the inevitable flame-fight which follows a few mortals with poor reflexes and not immune to fire damage are bound to get gratuitously crisped...
Not that anything I've posted will actually help resolve your problem of too much antagonism. Banning servants of Asmodeus won't work because that's too legalistic - they'd just enjoy it, and it would encourage even more of them to show up.
Hoping that this post has been helpful.
Yours,
Ask A Succubus.
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Dear Paizo Posters,
Haven't any of you heard of 'Asmodeus' Law'? The longer it goes on, the more likely it is that any messageboard thread will be invaded by uptight servants of Asmodeus?
Once that happens all the fun value gets rapidly squeezed out of the thread by those party poopers, and then we servants of the Abyss feel naturally honour-bound to invade to keep Asmodeus' minions from causing too much more damage, and in the inevitable flame-fight which follows a few mortals with poor reflexes and not immune to fire damage are bound to get gratuitously crisped...
Not that anything I've posted will actually help resolve your problem of too much antagonism. Banning servants of Asmodeus won't work because that's too legalistic - they'd just enjoy it, and it would encourage even more of them to show up.
Hoping that this post has been helpful.Yours,
Ask A Succubus.
"I'm on the vegetarian conservative atheist rastafarian!"
"I'm on the beef farming liberal who loves god and hates reggae!"
"Rules broken!"
"Rules fine!"
"Blah blah!"
"Blah Blah!"
"You're a troll!"
"Straw man argument! Plus a bunch of posturing four plus syllable words so you'll not think me dumb!"
"Ban the troll!"
"Free speech!"
"Lets have a beer at Paizocon."
"... Sounds good."
I personally admit to a lot of snark. I feel bad about it later because I read other responses that are put forth with less... venom.
I really have no patience for people that come into the forum to ask a question to which they will accept no answer except "your assumptions are right." And people that run around yelling "Broked!" I *hate* that word. I try to use it sparingly.
The problem is room 12 is abuse. Arguments are 12A next door. Common mixup really.
If we had triangles on both rooms 12 and 12A, we could close the little triangle that would keep us from straying into the wrong room. Just sayin'.
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It was kind of inevitable that once the RPG is out it will attract a whole spectrum of trolls. A price you pay for the success, sadly - as long as all the people argue is fluff it's pretty civil, but get some topics such as "math", "fun", "balance" and off it goes. Every game forum has to live with that.
I guess that many posters got accustomed to the tender "fluff only" era of Paizo activity, and are dismayed with the shift that came with the advent of rules forums.
The fact that Paizo became arch-nemesis of the Den doesn't help, and we have to endure a new Roy sockpuppet every month.
Also, ever since I've changed my avatar to The Bag With Teeth I feel compelled to bite people. Maybe when I switch to a Bella Sara Pony it will change. Oh, wait ...
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It was kind of inevitable that once the RPG is out it will attract a whole spectrum of trolls. A price you pay for the success, sadly - as long as all the people argue is fluff it's pretty civil, but get some topics such as "math", "fun", "balance" and off it goes. Every game forum has to live with that.
I guess that many posters got accustomed to the tender "fluff only" era of Paizo activity, and are dismayed with the shift that came with the advent of rules forums.
The fact that Paizo became arch-nemesis of the Den doesn't help, and we have to endure a new Roy sockpuppet every month.
Also, ever since I've changed my avatar to The Bag With Teeth I feel compelled to bite people. Maybe when I switch to a Bella Sara Pony it will change. Oh, wait ...
Good point oh hungry bag... With Rules come Rules Lawyers and everyone hates Lawyers!
I for one don't understand (or really like) the playstyle that says, "Du must built ein PC mit ein eye towards optimization!" The goal is to have fun, not to Win.
--Pet Vrock
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I for one don't understand (or really like) the playstyle that says, "Du must built ein PC mit ein eye towards optimization!" The goal is to have fun, not to Win.
--Pet Vrock
And yet, for some players, winning *is* having fun. I'm thrilled with a game that's purely political and has minimal or no combat at all (especially a Vampire the Masquerade game), and I'm *also* a fan of building something effective and steamrollering anything that gets in my way, and even the exhilarating power-fantasy that is superhero gaming.
Some days you want to be Conan or Dread Pirate Wesley, arbitrarily better at everything than everyone else, and not Samwise Gamgee, after all, and it's not like the genre wasn't built with Conan in mind.
Not every playstyle is going to appeal to every player, but that doesn't mean that it's a productive use of the messageboards to accuse others of 'playing wrong' just because they like to optimize (or roleplay, or kingdom/world-build, or engage in one of the other sub-hobbies that has been folded into the D&D experience).
I see a lot more 'why balance?' threads and few, if any, 'why roleplay?' threads, making it appear to my eyes that the number-crunchers are less critical of the roleplayers (world-builders, etc.) than vice-versa. (Although, I think it would be fairer to say that the balance / CharOp / DPR crowd doesn't necessarily see themselves as being opposed to roleplay, and didn't know there was even a fight, so they forgot to bring their axe.)
I'm as guilty of this mentality as anyone, as I go cuckoo for cocoa puffs when people use alignment as some sort of arbitrary mechanical formula where you do one thing and get X points of 'evil' or whatever. And yet, it's their game, too, and I shouldn't even care if they use a spreadsheet to keep track of their character's alignments, instead of some sort of judgement. They aren't 'doing it wrong,' as long as they are having fun.
Having fun is the important part of the game, and I agree with most of what you said, Set. That said, I am going to examine a few points, and maybe we'll find we agree more than we disagree. Or vice versa.
Concern crops up when someone takes a firm stance and begins to take that "black and white" view. It's when someone begins to impose THEIR worldview of "how the game should be played" on others. It's also when that tone changes from helpful to argumentative that people sit up and take notice.
I think you'd agree with that. Or, at least, I hope you would?
No one argues that it's right to enjoy the game. What the concern is, is that apparently when engaging in rules debates, the parties tend to become less civil.
And that is an issue.
I've made "numbers" a part of my games--but it doesn't change the expectations of civil behavior. Rules are something folk become passionate about, and that can lead to tempers, yelling, and other things when the participants are not mindful.
So while it's wrong to "tell someone how to play," I think opinions here are actually more in agreement than disagreement. What we have, in essence, are people who cannot self-police.
We also have shared objections about forcing views upon others. You do have a point that folk tend to be harder on optimizers. However, part of that stems from:
A. Let's call it an angry passion when it flares up in a rules debate. People get passionate about rules. When the ability to self-police fails, then people notice. And don't appreciate it. Does this mean that rules should not be debated?
No.
It means it's all the more important to remember to be civil. And it means if someone can't--then that needs addressed firmly.
B. Imposing viewpoints. Now we have to say--if someone is saying, "THIS is the only way to balance x, and my opinion is right," aren't they telling everyone ELSE how to play? That is the issue.
No, we cannot tell others how to play.
So if there's an issue that someone believes to be there--it pays to approach it in a civil manner, of "I am concerned" rather than "I am right." The former gets appreciated--the latter, people stand up and notice, and realize it's changing the tone of their community.
Understandably, this makes them upset.
I believe the overall concern here? Is basic civility. The concern is also that rules-discussions also turn into rules-arguments, or forceful statements like I gave in "B." Self-policing, civility, become all the more important when dealing with a thing of passion, and some folks are just bad at it.
And, we cannot say, "it just happens" because that throws away the obligation of social responsibility to be decent, and respectful, of one another.
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The problem is that many rules-focused people subscribe to the Denist school of thinking:
1. Fun isn't objective or quantifiable
2. Math is objective and quantifiable
3. Therefore, fun = irrelevant
OPTIONAL 4. Anybody who fails to see the above is a failure of human existence and is being ignored.
On the other side, the Paizo forum moderation is somewhat on the soft side. I see several people (not just Denists - the "pro-Paizo" camp has a few really annoying folks as well) go round and round and round with the same routine of dismissing anyone who doesn't agree with them.
The problem is that many rules-focused people subscribe to the Denist school of thinking:
I read "Dentist" at first and wondered what the hell they had to do with this, other than a Demon called Zahnarzt in the Warhammer World :-).
But what is a Denist?Stefan
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I see (or at least, saw; more on that later) a lot of "internet aggressiveness", a special brand of behaviour, mostly on threads focused on which one is better? why bother with this when I can get the same number-crunched result this other way? tell me why should I like this feat/class/rule or let's compare this and that (usually apples and oranges). Threads starting with this class/feat/spell/thing is broken are even too blatant about their intentions.
Fact is, I stopped even reading them, I just skip over to something different and more pleasant. Last time there was a discussion about trollish increase in the forums, someone jumped up with something along these lines "well I just like to be antagonistic this way, I have no issues at all: if being snarky means I stir up responses, I'm fine with that, and it's not my problem but something the community must deal with, and I mean accept it and shut up".
Last straw for me.
I still enjoy the occasional thread about gamer life, games that are interesting, products to be released and so on, but the playtest forums (uuuuugghh) and the rules discussion forums have a less than stellar appeal to me.
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The problem is that many rules-focused people subscribe to the Denist school of thinking:I read "Dentist" at first and wondered what the hell they had to do with this, other than a Demon called Zahnarzt in the Warhammer World :-).
But what is a Denist?Stefan
Somebody who subscribes to the school of thought on D&D displayed by Teh Gaming Den community. CoDzilla is a perfect example of a Denist.
I'm not sure I see that perspective you're discussing in the Den people Gorbacz. The ones I'm aware of seem to care about fun, but fun is in the moment, it's in the play at the table. From my perspective, the rules and math and the fun don't really have a lot to do with eachother. Sure some rules might be more fun to some people than others, but that's entirely separate from a discussion concerning balance, you know?
The point is that many people, myself included, don't care about balance. I am fully happy with my linear Pathfailure Oh My God Somebody Fire Jason Because He Can't Design Fighter right next to your quadratic GodWizard, and tell me now, what are you going to discuss with me ?
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I'm not sure I see that perspective you're discussing in the Den people Gorbacz. The ones I'm aware of seem to care about fun, but fun is in the moment, it's in the play at the table. From my perspective, the rules and math and the fun don't really have a lot to do with eachother. Sure some rules might be more fun to some people than others, but that's entirely separate from a discussion concerning balance, you know?The point is that many people, myself included, don't care about balance. I am fully happy with my linear Pathfailure Oh My God Somebody Fire Jason Because He Can't Design Fighter right next to your quadratic GodWizard, and tell me now, what are you going to discuss with me ?
Something interesting though Gorbacz. In a game that is balanced, one can easily use a non-balance-focused playstyle (which, of course, there's nothing wrong with. I tend to twitch when I see trap options and the like, but that's a personal issue of mine) without any work on the part of the GM.
The same can not be said of an imbalanced game, which requires hours upon hours of rules tweaking from a GM in order to create that balanced equity some of us seek.
Incidentally, I don't have any real problems with Jason. The guy seems pretty cool, and in my own perspective he did make some improvements over 3.5 in the production of Pathfinder. In my own opinion there were things that should have been done that he did not, but obviously he did well enough to capture a healthy market.
We're offtopic alread, but I'll just go with one more thing and shut up:
A balanced game would be a departure from 3.5 ruleset significant enough to stop me playing it.
Weird, isn't ? I don't play 4E. Not because I think it sucks, not because I think that it killed Gary Gygax and funds Iran's WMD program, but because it is such a radical departure from 3.5 that I'm not really into learning a whole new game.
4E, all it's flaws aside, is balanced-ish. Far more than 3.5. Now the question is, can you balance 3.5 to the same level while retaining majority of 3.5 rules ?
Say, you would have to ditch the iteratives, revamp the combat system and alter the magic system. Can you do that in a cosmetic way and still keep it close to 3.5 ? I say not, and point to Fantasycraft and Trailblazer as games who went far enough to disconnect from 3.5 and not far enough to reach a balancing point.
And since we do live in a market economy (something the Denists ignore altogether), such games will remain trivia while Pathfinder has a rather happy future ahead. Happy future means more good books (hey, APG is cool) and perhaps some 10 years down the road, PF 2.0 that takes the next step to address the balance problems.
Somebody smurfed ?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I blame the holidays,
Seriously.
Emotions, good and bad, are riled up by this time of year. I know it's hitting me like I'd dropped the soap in front of a Nick inspired Ogre, but that's personal.
I have failed to keep it off the boards, and it's why I stay out of certain forums/topics now.
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I haven't noticed an uptick in aggression, but (like many) I don't frequent the rules-heavy discussions and find the political discussion boringly parochial (not everyone on these boards is an American). The more aggressive types are pretty much only interested in these two things and so are easily avoided (the 4e boards now only really frequented by people who actually play 4e, and so now pretty quiet). I think since the Paizo community began segregating itself during/post the PF playtest (not a development I particularly welcome but seemingly inevitable) people have the bits they are interested in and the tone they desire, so there is probably little harm done. That said, it's not like what it was like before the magazines were cancelled....
<sighs, looks into the middle distance with dewy eyes>
Well observed and well said, Aubrey.
Although I think the many of the fractures started to appear in microcosm during the 4E flame wars, the PF playtests brought vitriolic opinion to a new high here.
"I'm on the vegetarian conservative atheist rastafarian!"
"I'm on the beef farming liberal who loves god and hates reggae!"
"Rules broken!"
"Rules fine!"
"Blah blah!"
"Blah Blah!"
"You're a troll!"
"Straw man argument! Plus a bunch of posturing four plus syllable words so you'll not think me dumb!"
"Ban the troll!"
"Free speech!"
"Lets have a beer at Paizocon."
"... Sounds good."
Spot on, except I've yet to see any conciliatory offers of a Paizocon beer summit.
As others have pointed out, there seemed to be very little of this vitriol prior to the 4e/3.5e split, when for a while the edition wars raged and then eventually calmed, but ever since the first playtest to my mind has been back on the rise. Recently, it seems as if there are a few bad apple posters who seem to be as focussed on stirring the pot as they are on debating the issue at hand.
Recently, it seems as if there are a few bad apple posters who seem to be as focussed on stirring the pot as they are on debating the issue at hand.
Well, thats exactly what flagging is for (note that I did not write flogging, even though it might seem appropriate in some cases...). If some posters leave the common ground of acceptable behaviour, flag their posts and let the powers-that-be decide how to handle the issue. Other than that, try to ignore them.
Stefan
Senior Software Developer
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The fact that Paizo became arch-nemesis of the Den doesn't help, and we have to endure a new Roy sockpuppet every month.Please do not do this. Our messageboards have nothing to do with any other place on the internet, and we'd like to keep it that way. And accusations of sockpuppetry, veiled or otherwise, do not help. If you think someone isn't posting in good faith, please use the flagging system or email webmaster@paizo.com.
The fact that Paizo became arch-nemesis of the Den doesn't help, and we have to endure a new Roy sockpuppet every month..
Gary already covered this, but I'm going to reiterate it, because this really is a toxic way of thinking. What people do in other places on the internet has nothing whatsoever to do with their behavior here.
If a poster is being a jerk, ignore it or flag it. The vigilante efforts to run posters out of the forum do not work, and usually escalate the situation rather than resolving it. It takes two to be nemeses, so let it go.
I applaud those posters who remain civil even when no one else seems to.
.....we have to endure a new Roy sockpuppet every month.
Roy? As in leader of the Order of the Stick? But....but...Roy is LG....
....and Elan is usually the one with the thing for puppets. Not that I'd know anything about that.....
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The fact that Paizo became arch-nemesis of the Den doesn't help, and we have to endure a new Roy sockpuppet every month..Gary already covered this, but I'm going to reiterate it, because this really is a toxic way of thinking. What people do in other places on the internet has nothing whatsoever to do with their behavior here.
If a poster is being a jerk, ignore it or flag it. The vigilante efforts to run posters out of the forum do not work, and usually escalate the situation rather than resolving it. It takes two to be nemeses, so let it go.
I applaud those posters who remain civil even when no one else seems to.
Well said Ross. I'm very sorry your job is so stressfull at the moment. I just hope it will get better.
Gotta admit to nearly falling into that kind of pattern myself- luckily, things got and went better before that happened.