I've occasionally come across mentions of parties being captured and having to escape. Aside from instances of surrendering to legal authorities, I've never had a party I was DM'ing for be willing to accept that -- they always seem to want to fight to the death.
Short of an opponent intentionally choosing nonlethal damage (which seems likely to result in said opponent's death, unless the party is massively outnumbered), how would you go about accomplishing that? An overabundance of drow sleep venom? Chain-metamagic'd deep slumber? *grin*
First off, it's a matter of player attitude. Our players generally play quite "realistic" personalities, more than "heroic" personalities, and thus tend to be quite self-preserving. Just that goes a long way.
Then, you'll want reasons for the opponent to capture them. Do they need them for informations, or are they just not evil enough to kill people if they don't have to, or want to ransom them, or simply want to keep them around for a bit? (living meat doesn't rot).
But nonlethal damage works fine, as not all damage has to be that way. Nets and grapples are another good way. There's a lot of spells that works. And remember - characters aren't dead at 0hp, so you have a marginal. If you play a lot at high levels, that marginal is much smaller and you might want to house rule it a bit larger (for example half your hit points).
Depends on the level really. And the system.
At low levels a caster or two with access to color spray can take out a party right quick without killing them, as can a proper application of sleep.
Drow poison is possible, again at low levels since the DC is nothing special, but the cost of the poison can really drag on low level NPC's wealth resources, especially if they are relying on multiple doses to take down something with a stronger fortitude save.
A couple of saps (or blunted arrows) with a couple of rogues can do the job nicely at any level, assuming they are tactical and rolls don't go terribly wrong, though it does become a more difficult and longer process as levels increase, since hitpoints are going to scale faster than sneak attack damage.
Stabilizing PC's who are bleeding out after combat is always a choice if you go the lethal damage route, though just to be safe you can give them a few lethal hits mixed in with a couple of non-lethal shots, that way you don't have to worry about them bleeding out. Even only taking the -4 once or twice and getting in a solid non-lethal blow can make it much more likely that they will only be unconcious and not dying; though this route does make PC's magical healing stretch a bit further since it heals non-lethal and lethal damage at an equal rate.
If a PC dies you can always have enemies attempt to ressurect the body, but only if they really, really, really want the captive, as the player, I believe, can choose not to return to life, and it is, of course, not only expensive but requires a divine caster (though I suppose you could just as easily design some sort of arcane or infernal ritual that returns the PC to life for free and without a level loss if the capture is storyline driven, though that almost feels like railroading to me).
At higher levels you are presented options like paralysis on a death attack, or flesh to stone, which can be reversed at a later time, among other things. Dimensional locked trapped rooms can seal in PC's for a while, until their martial times hack their way through the walls of the casters find another escape plan, though it might be long enough to fill the room with several doses of an inhaled poison which causes unconciousness, or ability damage which will eventually cause a comatose/paralysed state, from which you can heal their ability damage later with a lesser restoration (which will also keep them quite weak and easier for their captives to manage).
Then their is always the story/role-playing method - giving them incentive past their characters' lives to risk. Perhaps the BBEG has captured a loved one or innocent and is willing to trade them for a PC who comes as a willing captive, or else he slaughters or tortures whoever he already has.
Endless possiblities, although admittidly, most are easier to accomplish at lower levels, but it is far from impossible at any level. Just watch out for teleportation effects. If nothing else, capturing PCs and having them try to escape, perhaps intermingled with another objective really gives the rogue type a chance to use his skills and really shine.
But nonlethal damage works fine, as not all damage has to be that way. Nets and grapples are another good way. There's a lot of spells that works. And remember - characters aren't dead at 0hp, so you have a marginal. If you play a lot at high levels, that marginal is much smaller and you might want to house rule it a bit larger (for example half your hit points).
That much I know -- hell, half of the dramatic combats have had a party member or two down into the negatives. (The fighter in the group seems to get down there so frequently he took Diehard!)
Hmmm... well, I suppose there's the possibility of grappling, entangling, or manacle-ing some of them up quickly after a stun effect went off... *evil plotty grin*
I've occasionally come across mentions of parties being captured and having to escape. Aside from instances of surrendering to legal authorities, I've never had a party I was DM'ing for be willing to accept that -- they always seem to want to fight to the death.
Short of an opponent intentionally choosing nonlethal damage (which seems likely to result in said opponent's death, unless the party is massively outnumbered), how would you go about accomplishing that? An overabundance of drow sleep venom? Chain-metamagic'd deep slumber? *grin*
Answer: You don't. Because one of two things will happen:
1: The party will defeat the enemy. Generally, this is easier, since the enemy likely has to hold back to not kill them.
2: The enemy will defeat the party. The party is now captured by an enemy that overpowers them so greatly that they could defeat the entire party, who was not holding back when said enemy was holding back. And now the PCs are stripped of magic items, spells, and so forth, and being held of the same enemy that already proved they could effortlessly defeat them when they had their power. Conclusion: PCs are irrevocably screwed, exactly as they would be had everyone died. Except that because you aren't dead, you can't just make new characters. So their only recourse is to sit there as their characters are jerked around, which is to say they don't have a recourse.
Unless the ones who captured them were hired bounty hunters and the people actually keeping them prisoner are not as powerful.
2: The enemy will defeat the party. The party is now captured by an enemy that overpowers them so greatly that they could defeat the entire party, who was not holding back when said enemy was holding back. And now the PCs are stripped of magic items, spells, and so forth, and being held of the same enemy that already proved they could effortlessly defeat them when they had their power. Conclusion: PCs are irrevocably screwed, exactly as they would be had everyone died. Except that because you aren't dead, you can't just make new characters. So their only recourse is to sit there as their characters are jerked around, which is to say they don't have a recourse.
Ehm, what? You know criminals manage to escape from high-security prisons from time to time IRL right? You know this is a staple of stories all over right?
It's just that they can't punch themselves free at any time with brute force.
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I've occasionally come across mentions of parties being captured and having to escape. Aside from instances of surrendering to legal authorities, I've never had a party I was DM'ing for be willing to accept that -- they always seem to want to fight to the death.
Short of an opponent intentionally choosing nonlethal damage (which seems likely to result in said opponent's death, unless the party is massively outnumbered), how would you go about accomplishing that? An overabundance of drow sleep venom? Chain-metamagic'd deep slumber? *grin*
Answer: You don't. Because one of two things will happen:
1: The party will defeat the enemy. Generally, this is easier, since the enemy likely has to hold back to not kill them.
2: The enemy will defeat the party. The party is now captured by an enemy that overpowers them so greatly that they could defeat the entire party, who was not holding back when said enemy was holding back. And now the PCs are stripped of magic items, spells, and so forth, and being held of the same enemy that already proved they could effortlessly defeat them when they had their power. Conclusion: PCs are irrevocably screwed, exactly as they would be had everyone died. Except that because you aren't dead, you can't just make new characters. So their only recourse is to sit there as their characters are jerked around, which is to say they don't have a recourse.
Or unless the enemy used superior tactics to capture them, rather than raw power. Or the party were low on resources from previous fights and the people who captured them waited until an opportune moment.
Oh wait sorry, I forgot you adventured in a magical kingdom where you have a set and small number of encounters per day...
Or simply, the enemy is stupid. I mean, a few ogres can easily capture a low-level party, keeping them alive as a herd of future food, but still not be able to actually make sure they don't escape.
Usually capturing people is done out of combat. If you bust in on someone while they are asleep, in the bath, with a maiden of easy virtue, etc. it is much more likely that capture will be a viable option.
Other methods include areas where terrain and other conditions greatly favor the attackers. For example, if I wanted to capture an all caster party, a whole bunch of mooks readying magic missiles vs casting would effectively shut down the group. Or dropping the group underwater, or deep underground. Basically let the group get into a situation that is just not good for them.
The final element of capture is that there has to be a valid reason NOT to fight to the death. You have to know that you might be able to escape, be ransomed, earn freedom, fight your way out, or that the hostages will be released when you surrender. As a player, I would be more inclined to surrender to a Lawful group then a Chaotic one.
One of the reasons escape is possible is because prisoners are not viewed as a substantial threat. Jails are built for regulars not heroes, and the best troops don't hang around guarding unarmed people in cells. Jailers are bored, and often lax with discipline and duties.
Because equipment is so important to PCs, there has to be some method of re-equipping once escape has been made. Perhaps the best is to let the PCs get their hands on mundane stuff, and fight against APL-2-3 encounters until they can get into a better situation. Be careful however, classes are affected in different ways by lose of items.
I'm honestly considering changing the death rules to where it is easier to get knocked out than killed. This would allow combats to be brutal without Revolving Character Syndrome. The downside is a lot more prisoner-taking scenarios.
I agree. Most other game systems recognize that it's more fun to recognize the large margin between injured and dead. I think the easiest way is to change -10 to -HP Total. (If your regular HP total is 45, then you die at -46.)
That probably sounds extremely generous, but it never helps you win a battle! The main function it serves is to keep PCs from dying to random critical hits. The second is to make sure that one party member standing at the end of a fight can be a victory, they'll just have to do a lot of healing or haul their buddies back to camp for recovery. Lastly, because I don't like to use this method more than once in a campaign, it makes getting captured rather than killed quite easy to arrange.
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On Topic
Capturing players is hard work... as mentioned by Fergie it would seem wiser to do so out of actual combat. Players tend to go down fighting. Bring foam-covered maces and sleeping arrows.
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Soap Box
I've always considered being captured to follow the same logic as traps and dungeons in the DnD world:
It happens to make life/the game interesting.
Realistically speaking, traps would have be truly lethal and in the most forgiving case, remove limbs. However, that would make for some pretty dull gaming..
...weeell, ok, I'd be up for some random limb loss, especially if it was happening to other party members with pointy ears and a fetish for bows.
..and yes, realistically speaking, you'd hope an enemy who is aware of all the party's abilities (which cuts out most antagonists...) and would take measures to foil any attempts of escape..
..but..
..from a gameplay POV, which, after lurking in a few recent threads, seems to be taken by some as 'soft balling*' the players, you'd hope there was always *some* means/manner of escape.
Otherwise, why include it in the evening's entertainment? o_O
The delicate art of creating the illusion of free will is, to my mind, the true test the DM's craft.
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The DLC Mega Man game punished my lame 27-year old arse for not keeping my childhood skills up. I still haven't gotten through Wily's Castle in that one yet. XD
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Gotta keep those knuckles greased!
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Original Prince of Persia vs current incarnations. Christ....
I had my players captured in my current campaign and it worked out really well : their enemies (two high level knights that had been taunted or tricked several times by the PCs who came for revenge) beat the crap out of them and they fell in the negatives. The knights just dragged them in a prison in a nearby city and, being royal knights, they could basically treat the PCs as dangerous criminals without having to explain themselves.
The interesting part : the PCs got stuck in the prison for weeks (and they were already in a hurry!) and got tortured several times, spending what is probably the most painful and terrifying moment of their lives. Not only did it allow many interesting character developments (the halfling rogue slowly becoming crazy, who now sees violence as the best and often only option), but now, my players and PCs really want to kill the two knights. They hate them so much, one of my players even wrote and composed a song about them with an electric guitar.
How did they escape? They had to wait for the right moment. It's hard to make capture scenes fun, but if you skip to the interesting scenes and give your players a chance to escape every once in a while if they actually think about it, it'll still be fun. For example, the halfling rogue was able to shove an iron pin in a guard's eye with a sneak attack and he was almost out of the prison when he got caught again. And as I said, it's very interesting for character development. When the PCs are tortured, raped or humiliated for days, weeks, months or even years, they'll realize how horrible being an adventurer can be.
I agree. Most other game systems recognize that it's more fun to recognize the large margin between injured and dead. I think the easiest way is to change -10 to -HP Total. (If your regular HP total is 45, then you die at -46.)
Just a quick Point of (Rules) Order: In PF you die at negative hit points in excess of your Con score, not -10.
I now yield the floor.
One possibility that I'd considered -- which would absolutely be a house rule -- is to have armor bonus (and perhaps natural armor bonus) -- change lethal damage equal to the armor bonus into nonlethal damage. That way, heavily armored characters would be a bit more likely to get knocked out than to be knocked into negative hit points and risk bleeding out.
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I beat Ninja Gaiden 2 for the NES recently. I've had that game since I was 6. 15 years later I finally beat it.
And that's one of the two games in the trilogy with infinite continues.
(Oh, better look like I'm saying something on-topic.)
I usually capture my parties with kindness. That little old lady who you talked with for an afternoon? During that afternoon the BBEG was EATING ALL THE BABIES!
I would like to take this moment to thank the people that responded by making my point for making my point. For clarity, this is everyone that responded. Every. Single. One.
At the risk of feeding the trolls...
I think you completely misinterpreted what I wrote, as it really does NOT back up what you said at all. I'm confused that you think it does.
[/trollsloping]
You have a plethora of nonlethal means at your disposal as a GM. Drow sleeping poison has already been mentioned, but why stop there? Any poison that deals strength or dexterity damage can immobilize characters with poor fortitude saves (remember, if either of those stats reaches zero, they aren't dead, but they are completely immobilized until they heal at least 1 point).
There are ways to help those poisons along, too. If someone is hit with a strength-based poison, they could take a few dice of damage before they shake off the effects. A low level spellcaster can use ray of enfeeblement and a touch of fatigue to quickly compound that. Those points of strength will return in a matter of rounds, but that's more than enough time to bind the immobile PC (and the same goes for the Hold Person spell).
There are numerous spells that could lead to a PC's caster. At low levels, sleep is monstrous, and deep slumber can decomission mid-level characters (and if you don't want to use a caster that outlevels them too severly, remember that scrolls are alwaya an option). Barring spells that disable PCs outright, you can simply stack debuffs until the party really has no choice but to surrender. It's one thing to go down fighting when you're comrades have fallen around you and you're hit points have dropped to single digits - that's just outright heroic. It's entirely something else to keep up that kind of stubborness when you're all kicking but you're warriors are blinded, your wizard is too weak to make somatic components, and your cleric has been shot with a barbed arrows with a silence spell centered on it (one of my favorite counters to spellcasters, by the way).
Bottom line, don't try and just beat your PCs into submission, because as has been mentioned, your monsters WILL have to hold back if they're using subdual damage or being carefull on how much damage they do. Look to your more insidious tools, and you'll find some interesting ways to put your PCs out of commision.
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I had a Total Party Capture situation about a year and a half ago. The group was assaulting the underground lair of a mind flayer, and all but one character failed their save versus its mind blast.
The last character handed over a huge amount of the party's treasure and agreed (on behalf of everyone unconscious) to serve the illithid as its agents. The terms included everyone in the party being psionically tattooed, so that it could monitor and communicate with them.
If that one character had not surrendered, it would have been a straight TPK, instead.
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Answer: You don't. Because one of two things will happen:1: The party will defeat the enemy. Generally, this is easier, since the enemy likely has to hold back to not kill them.
2: The enemy will defeat the party. The party is now captured by an enemy that overpowers them so greatly that they could defeat the entire party, who was not holding back when said enemy was holding back. And now the PCs are stripped of magic items, spells, and so forth, and being held of the same enemy that already proved they could effortlessly defeat them when they had their power. Conclusion: PCs are irrevocably screwed, exactly as they would be had everyone died. Except that because you aren't dead, you can't just make new characters. So their only recourse is to sit there as their characters are jerked around, which is to say they don't have a recourse.
+1.
D&D-like games are the wrong games for this sort of event to be 'fun' for anyone other than the DM. Strip the magic items and it's effectively game-over. Let's not forget that the captors would have to be all sorts of stupid not to take a Wizards spell book - then what for the Wizard?
This sort of thing works brilliantly in games such as 1e/2e Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. D&D-like games are Kill or Be Killed.
S.
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I can't believe no one mentioned this probably because its the most underused magical item but a Merciful weapon (I have a character in a game with qualms about killing that packs one) converts all damage to subdual and tacks on an extra D6.
I don't think we are suggesting the rules don't support capture, more that once captured the PC's are pretty much out of the game unless the capture was a plot device and the DM will 'give' back all the players equipment when they 'escape'. Without this 'rail-road' plot device and DM intervention the players are going to be very annoyed...
S.
D&D-like games are Kill or Be Killed.S.
I disagree. While it's true that it's common practice to simply slay your foe outright, I've experienced both as a GM and a player PCs, NPCs, or monsters that endeavor to end a battle with nonlethal methods. In fact, I played a beguiler in a 3.5 game a few years ago that always made it a point to take as many foes alive as possible in order to coax favors from them in exchange for this mercy, or at least question them before sumarily executed the poor wretches.
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I disagree. While it's true that it's common practice to simply slay your foe outright, I've experienced both as a GM and a player PCs, NPCs, or monsters that endeavor to end a battle with nonlethal methods. In fact, I played a beguiler in a 3.5 game a few years ago that always made it a point to take as many foes alive as possible in order to coax favors from them in exchange for this mercy, or at least question them before sumarily executed the poor wretches.
D&D-like games are Kill or Be Killed.S.
I'm with you 100% when it's the players doing the capturing, just not sure that the other way around works. As DM I do try to curb my players homicidal tendencies, but the whole "and the party is captured" I think in D&D-like games and more in 3.e/PF results in PC that just plain suck.
S.
PS: I think I've slipped into an alternative reality - I'm agreeing with CoDzilla! :)
I see your point, and yes, a tribe of orcs is probably just going to try (fail) to kill the PCs and ransack their corpses, but consider the evil wizard masterminding and army of goblins or similar creatures? Does it not befront him to capture the PCs so as to interrogate them? Adventureres have a track record for being hired out to do things, and any intelligent villain is going to want to know who has sent his would-be-trouncers and why, as well as what this person or organization knows about his goals and capabilities. It makes sense for such a character to want to capture the PCs, and to equip his minions with the means to do so.
I can't believe no one mentioned this probably because its the most underused magical item but a Merciful weapon (I have a character in a game with qualms about killing that packs one) converts all damage to subdual and tacks on an extra D6.
That's good, but not everybody's going to have that. City guards and other NPCs who want to capture rather than kill don't have a lot of options.
Old-school, you'd hit them with the flat of your blade. Maybe a "merciful" trait (I don't think it's worth a feat) could allow a character to do that for subdual damage. I could see it for certain characters who want to capture rather than kill. Getting killed by an inquisitor is bad, but being knocked out and dragged away for questioning could be worse.
Several scenarios I can think of that could be cool to play out:
First of all, the entire party doesn't have to be captured. A group of bad guys who probably can't overpower all the PCs uses some sort of mechanic to get the PCs separated and captures the first one they can subdue, then takes off, or leaves a few mooks behind to cover their escape. Now the remaining PCs have the job of rescuing their companion, and the captured PC gets to see what he can learn about the enemy while captured.
Second, the party gets captured, and everyone gets to spend some time trying to learn a bit about their captors before all of them are able to take advantage of an event that puts the captors at a disadvantage (could be a rescue attempt from allies, or an attack from some third party that weakens the captors, or something as simple as the captors' ship is smashed into a shore during a storm).
Then there's always the scenario where the PCs are captured, then taken to the leader, who then apologizes for the rough treatment at the hands of his minions, and explains that if they'll only listen to his tale, they'll understand why it was so important that they be brought to him.
All of these situations allow for a session or two where some or all of the players deal with the discomfort of being without all their magic items, etc., but still give them interesting challenges to overcome.
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All of these situations allow for a session or two where some or all of the players deal with the discomfort of being without all their magic items, etc., but still give them interesting challenges to overcome.
I like the idea, but again how do you without seeming like all your bad guys learned from the "James Bond" school of bad guys, return your players items?
Let's take super bright Bad Guy Bob
After capturing the party...
Step one - burn the Wizards spell book, well after copying down the spells I don't have.
Step two - see what cool stuff is better than mine, use it.
Step three - flush any spell components not worth selling down the toilet.
Step four - DO NOT store all the remaining items in one room guarded by a fool-proof guard/mechanism.
etc.
You see what I mean, the smart thing to do results in the DM ruining part of the 3.x/PF game for the players, acquisition on magic items form the magic item shop. Anything else makes you 'bright' bad guy seem like a moron.
So while I agree the situations you posted are really cool, it's the returning of the magic items, which MUST happen, I'm unsure of.
S.
I'd argue that the items that the chief villain has no use for could be passed out to the minions that captured the PCs as a reward.
Stefan--
If you use a scenario where the bad guys just captured one or two PCs, then you assume they're in a hurry to get out of there since they don't want the rest of the PCs to catch up. In this case, they wouldn't have time to sort through everything-- they'd just put all the gear in a haversack and take it with them.
Or the captors are planning on interrogating their prisoner because they want information. In this case, the captors wouldn't destroy anything because any items might give them more information about the rest of the PC's.
Or the captors are minions of someone else and they haven't been given permission to destroy anything-- they're just going to transport everything back to their boss.
Or they're just typical greedy D&D types who know you always keep the treasure you find on other characters so you can sell it later.
All of these situations allow for a session or two where some or all of the players deal with the discomfort of being without all their magic items, etc., but still give them interesting challenges to overcome.I like the idea, but again how do you without seeming like all your bad guys learned from the "James Bond" school of bad guys, return your players items?
Let's take super bright Bad Guy Bob
After capturing the party...
Step one - burn the Wizards spell book, well after copying down the spells I don't have.
Step two - see what cool stuff is better than mine, use it.
Step three - flush any spell components not worth selling down the toilet.
Step four - DO NOT store all the remaining items in one room guarded by a fool-proof guard/mechanism.
etc.You see what I mean, the smart thing to do results in the DM ruining part of the 3.x/PF game for the players, acquisition on magic items form the magic item shop. Anything else makes you 'bright' bad guy seem like a moron.
So while I agree the situations you posted are really cool, it's the returning of the magic items, which MUST happen, I'm unsure of.
S.
It happens for the same reason your killer in a murder mystery makes mistakes or falls to hubris - the antagonist cannot be perfect.
If the villain's plan/goal/action/etc. is foolproof then they cannot be beaten.. which I'm pretty sure most PCs would consider not very fun.
The trick is as you say, finding a way to include that flaw without making the BBEG look dumb or cliché
"Remember, Zogar, these are dangerous adventurers. We're lucky to have captured them at all. Don't let them trick you!"
"Yes sir, Captain! I'll watch them like a roc!"
Zogar settled into his chair, noting that the prisoners seemed quiet. It looked like another long, boring night of guard duty.
"Hi, there. What's your name?"
"Huh?" Zogar replied, looking up to see the face of an amazingly beautiful woman, perhaps the loveliest he'd ever seen, looking forlorn, yet smiling slyly behind the bars.
Zogar hurriedly looked away.
"I'm not supposed to talk to prisoners. Don't bother me."
"You don't have to talk to me, then, but you could at least give a lady the courtesy of looking her in the eye."
He looked at her again, hoping to shut her up. She seemed even more stunning than before.
"Tell me your name, and I'll tell you mine. Deal?"
He felt lost in her gorgeous eyes. They seemed to sparkle in the dim light of the brig.
"I-I'm Zogar..." he stammered, unnerved at the barely-dressed beauty before him.
"That's not so hard, is it?" she replied. "As long as we're both stuck here, we might as well make the best of it."
"Yes, I suppose so. Now, stop talking."
"Okay, but fair is fair. You gave me your name, so I'll give you mine."
She stood up, her form fully visible between the iron bars of her cell.
"I'm Seoni," she whispered, extending her hand through the bars. "It's nice to meet you, Zogar."
Funny this came up...
I am reading the Scourge of the Slavelords and in this quest (four old-skool D&D modules) the PCs get captured not once, but twice!
However, the first capture is garbage. It does nothing to advance, or create a storyline. Captured, galley slave and escape? Yeah, no good reason. It would be just as easy to clue the PCs into the port they need to get to so they can continue tracking the Slave Lords. Geuss who is not using the first capture scenario?
Capturing PCs is fine. Even if you do strip them of their most valuable useful items. (Sometimes that is the *goal* of the capture.) Player refusal to play in the game, ie, react to the evolving situation, is an insult to the DM and the game. D&D (or most RPGs) should not be 'ok, you roll four times and win again!' D&D is about storytelling, challenges, victories, defeats, enemies... Players that refuse to accept the challenges inherent in good storytelling are just there to win, and as such (imo) should go back to games that you can 'save' before the boss fight. If you insist on playing "Beaches" instead of "Conan" then I am sure there is a good touchy feely rule set out there somewhere.
Now, having said that, the GM should not say, "ok, you are captured." There needs to be a sort of honesty so the players continue to feel involved and even when defeated, capable of escape, revenge, whatever. After all, the purpose of capturing PCs is to advance the story ;)
GNOME
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Funny this came up...
I am reading the Scourge of the Slavelords and in this quest (four old-skool D&D modules) the PCs get captured not once, but twice!
Back in the 'good old days' items were things you found along the way that were cool to have. I personally had an easy come easy go attitude to them. Ever play H4 Throne of Bloodstone - the city of 1,000 Lichs really puts a dent in your magic item inventory*. In 3.x/PF games items are much more fundamental as seen by the 'magic item' shop in any village of four persons (including pets) or more. What I'm flippantly saying is that magic items are more integral and expected - see wealth by level. In 1e I was pleased I had anything that Detect Magic would show up. Under 1e when I played those modules (started with Temple of Element Evil, T1-4) I was happy to escape from such situations with my characters life, I would imagine many throwing their toys out of the cot if a DM were to remove items during an adventure under current rules. Wouldn't be cricket, as they say.
S.
*A member of our group had a Helm of Brilliance (ironic really). This item automatically damaged undead. Negotiations went south the moment we got without 30' of the first Lich. Something like 17 Mordenkainen's Disjunctions hit us. Now those were the days of High Adventure!
Funny this came up...
I am reading the Scourge of the Slavelords and in this quest (four old-skool D&D modules) the PCs get captured not once, but twice! ** spoiler omitted **
However, the first capture is garbage. It does nothing to advance, or create a storyline. Captured, galley slave and escape? Yeah, no good reason. It would be just as easy to clue the PCs into the port they need to get to so they can continue tracking the Slave Lords. Geuss who is not using the first capture scenario?
Capturing PCs is fine. Even if you do strip them of their most valuable useful items. (Sometimes that is the *goal* of the capture.) Player refusal to play in the game, ie, react to the evolving situation, is an insult to the DM and the game. D&D (or most RPGs) should not be 'ok, you roll four times and win again!' D&D is about storytelling, challenges, victories, defeats, enemies... Players that refuse to accept the challenges inherent in good storytelling are just there to win, and as such (imo) should go back to games that you can 'save' before the boss fight. If you insist on playing "Beaches" instead of...
A2 was one of the first modules I played in. My dwarf fighter, Bosk. *sniff* the first character I made for AD&D. Lotta good memories of that mod. It was fun trying to turn anything and everything you found into a weapon. "Look! sharp rocks!" Thanks for the memory flash.
As for being captured, it can be part of a great game. I have played in many games (3.5 included) where my character had been captured. Most have been quite fine.
I haven't read most of the posts, but I've had a party I was in get captured. In our case it was a series of events...we went into an area that we were told there were a large number of goblins, but hadn't found any by the time we needed to camp. Of course, that night we were ambushed by goblins. We were heavily outnumbered, but we could have won, if the dice hadn't screwed us over. Instead all of us were knocked out, and punches were not pulled. We got knocked out and stabilized in relatively short order, for their commander's 'game'. He gave us a small amount of equipment and a head start in a huge set of ruins before releasing his troops to hunt us down. Fortunately for us, we managed to get away.
Also, I, as a GM, have captured a party, this one was a 6th level group, as I recall...maybe 5th. They attempted to infiltrate a cult of Mammon by distracting the guards, bungled the attempt, got peppered with strength sapping darts that defended the entrance and got knocked out by the guards. And stabilized where appropriate. I didn't have to fudge dice rolls, and this was in 3.5. I was honestly flabberghasted that they managed to lose to the guards, but it was a series of bad rolls. They were captured, save for one player who wasn't there that week, and who had to do some investigations before figuring out what had happened. When she did, she staged a breakout by recruiting the local temple of a lawful good deity.
In other words...it can happen, it just doesn't tend to happen often. And in my games, there's at least one player who will not play the character after they've been captured by an enemy, and views the character as dead, but that's his choice.
Ever play H4 Throne of Bloodstone - the city of 1,000 Lichs really puts a dent in your magic item inventory*.
The most fun/ridiculous thing about that module isn't that there's a city of a thousand liches and a dozen death nights, but that it's a throw-away encounter. It's like 1/10 of 1 page if that.
Ditto the Terrasque.
Another question: Just who is even doing the capturing? Golarion went out of its way to make sure that the evil races, and many of those that weren't evil were all GrimDarkEvil, and surrendering to them was a fate worse than death.
Interestingly, the only post referencing Golarion is the short fiction with Seoni.