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I like the idea of my barbarian not wearing armor, but is the Savage Barbarian archetype that's supposed to do that completely stupid?
If my calculations are correct, then at level 20 you gain +8 AC from this, up to level 7 its just +1 AC only.
In return you loose your DR and armor.
I mean, a normal, otherwise non-magical Mithral Breastplate is almost as good, allows you to tumble and you still have your DR.
I mean I have no problem that armor is better than no armor, thats sort of the point, but this archetype gives no advantage at all.
I guess you can still use Bracers of Armor with it, to get a better AC again, but what really bugs me is that it says those barbarians trained to "toughen their skin" and then they loose their DR... that just makes no sense.
I dunno, just going Invulnerable Rager and simply not wearing armor sounds like a better way to make this concept work than the archetype that's designed for it. Well not done the math, so that could be a horrible idea too.
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I think there is an error in the APG. Since the Naked Courage is replacing trap sense, it should go up as Trap Sense did, every 3 levels. That would put it at total +11 AC (not to mention fear save bonus).
Actually, HeroLab calculates it as every 3 levels. Please flag for FAQ, guys :)
If there's an error in APG, that might fix it. Otherwise, it's clearly sub-par. My group just allows Web of Steel from SGG's Feats of battle, and that fixes all our non-armor fighting concepts.
On the other hand since Erik Mona plays a normal barbarian with no armor, Paizo may just figure if you like the concept you'll suck-up the lack of combat efficiency.
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I think there is an error in the APG. Since the Naked Courage is replacing trap sense, it should go up as Trap Sense did, every 3 levels. That would put it at total +11 AC (not to mention fear save bonus).
Actually, HeroLab calculates it as every 3 levels. Please flag for FAQ, guys :)
That might make sense, considering every other ability that replaces trap sense actually has 3 level incriments.
May have to talk to my GM about that, I guess.That makes it a bit better, but not really great. And still leaves the fact that loosing the DR sort of goes against this entire concept.
Remember you can just slap bracers of armour on your savage to help him keep up.
(im not trying to be snarky) i don't think a class build should be justified by what items you might have.
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I think there is an error in the APG. Since the Naked Courage is replacing trap sense, it should go up as Trap Sense did, every 3 levels. That would put it at total +11 AC (not to mention fear save bonus).
Actually, HeroLab calculates it as every 3 levels. Please flag for FAQ, guys :)
That might make sense, considering every other ability that replaces trap sense actually has 3 level incriments.
May have to talk to my GM about that, I guess.That makes it a bit better, but not really great. And still leaves the fact that loosing the DR sort of goes against this entire concept.
Well, I'd pick +6 to saves vs. fear (one of the biggest "SCREW YOU" anti-melee things) over DR 5/- any day.
Well, I'd pick +6 to saves vs. fear (one of the biggest "SCREW YOU" anti-melee things) over DR 5/- any day.
Never really played melee chars before, so maybe you're right.
I guess the fear bonus does not stack with the default will save bonus from raging? Well its active all the time, but what barbarian isn't raging whenever she can? :)
I guess at the time you actually get DR up to decent values the amount of damage you get per hit is so high it doesn't make that much of a difference anymore. Not to mention barbarians have more HP than anyone else anyway.
Don't forget your shield.
I have played with savages with decent AC, getting into the 30s. Of course, many feats, rage powers and equipment choices were geared towards AC, rather than damage output. This variant requires a different outlook/concept of the barbarian.
That said, I sadly don't see the savage being suitable for a naked greataxe wielder.
It's certainly not the "unarmed warrior" variant that I was hoping for in the APG.
Bracers of Armor are lame.
Take toughness and dodge. That should help you stay up long enough to get a few more swings with that great-club of yours.
I'm personally looking at this myself. Overall, seems to have a much lower AC level than any other front-line Full-BAB Class should have. That Naked Courage is listed in the APG as going up every 6 levels, rather than every 3, this seems a little bit unstable as the average Barbarian is going to be in the thick of combat.
Any input from the Gods (re:Paizo) would be greatly appreciated. Is this an error in the printing or is this actually legit. We get not every class can be perfectly balanced but the Savage Barbarian gains precious little under RAW.
I did one of these up I'n her labs and he was surprisingly better than I had expected. lvl 10 or shoe was 26 ac I think with Mage armor.
@Ike Doe:
Maximum Dexterity for a Mithral Breastplate is +5.
Breastplate should probably not be looked at as +6 AC at 20th level, but as +11 armor. Around 7th level as +7 or 8 at least.
I like the concept, but I feel it was a little weak. Giving up armor AND DR sort of sacks the concept for me.
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IMO the concept of a barbarian is that they're difficult to kill even if you do hit, and a lot -- not that they're hard to hit.
In other words, people are making a mistake when they build their barbarians with STR:18/CON:14 -- that's just the wrong way to do it. If your while-raging hitpoints aren't near 200 by 12th, sans equipment, spells or other buffing, try again.
The savage warrior works perfectly fine the way he is - he gets up to +7 AC from just leveling, and on top of that can have +8 bracers. That is an effective total of 15 AC. Compare to pure fighter that can have +5 full-plate to get to 14 AC and a cap on dexterity bonus to AC.
I play a savage barbarian in one campaign, and she has no trouble out-AC'ing the rest of the party at level 11 (with 33 AC - with some play room to increase AC more with items).
The savage warrior works perfectly fine the way he is - he gets up to +7 AC from just leveling, and on top of that can have +8 bracers. That is an effective total of 15 AC. Compare to pure fighter that can have +5 full-plate to get to 14 AC and a cap on dexterity bonus to AC.
I play a savage barbarian in one campaign, and she has no trouble out-AC'ing the rest of the party at level 11 (with 33 AC - with some play room to increase AC more with items).
Not quite. The Fighter can get mundane full plate (+9 AC) and up to +8 Amulet of Natural Armor, which savage barbarian cannot, since Natural Toughness gives a natural armor bonus to AC. Of course, Amulet of Natural Armor is an order of magnitude more expensive than Bracers of Armor, but this is still mundane fullplate.
Admittedly, the savage barbarian doesn't have a Max Dex bonus, but if your dex ends up higher than 20 (+5 mod, as for a fighter in full plate with armor training 4, 7 if mithral), you're either playing above 25 point-buy, or probably not putting enough points in STR or CON.
Anyway, Fighter gets the bonuses to fear saves (Bravery) and better AC (if built sheerly for AC) and DR (Armor mastery)
huh the barbarian archetype bonus stacks with a amulet of natural armor. as. much as if you put it on a wolf. the amulets bonus is an enhancemebt I believe the savage barbarian is not.
The savage warrior works perfectly fine the way he is - he gets up to +7 AC from just leveling, and on top of that can have +8 bracers. That is an effective total of 15 AC. Compare to pure fighter that can have +5 full-plate to get to 14 AC and a cap on dexterity bonus to AC.
I play a savage barbarian in one campaign, and she has no trouble out-AC'ing the rest of the party at level 11 (with 33 AC - with some play room to increase AC more with items).
The savage barbarian is a viable build at level 20, by then he has comparable AC to other builds.
The problem is low level. A fighter can theoretically wear a full plate at level 1 if he can pay for it somehow, but at level 2 or 3 or so he should be able to afford it.
The savage barbarian basicly starts with 0, and it raises very slow in the beginning speeding up in the endgame. It should be the other way around.
The savage warrior works perfectly fine the way he is - he gets up to +7 AC from just leveling, and on top of that can have +8 bracers. That is an effective total of 15 AC. Compare to pure fighter that can have +5 full-plate to get to 14 AC and a cap on dexterity bonus to AC.
I play a savage barbarian in one campaign, and she has no trouble out-AC'ing the rest of the party at level 11 (with 33 AC - with some play room to increase AC more with items).
Not quite. The Fighter can get mundane full plate (+9 AC) and up to +8 Amulet of Natural Armor, which savage barbarian cannot, since Natural Toughness gives a natural armor bonus to AC. Of course, Amulet of Natural Armor is an order of magnitude more expensive than Bracers of Armor, but this is still mundane fullplate.
Admittedly, the savage barbarian doesn't have a Max Dex bonus, but if your dex ends up higher than 20 (+5 mod, as for a fighter in full plate with armor training 4, 7 if mithral), you're either playing above 25 point-buy, or probably not putting enough points in STR or CON.
Anyway, Fighter gets the bonuses to fear saves (Bravery) and better AC (if built sheerly for AC) and DR (Armor mastery)
Actually, Amulets of Natural Armour only go up to plus 5. Furthermore, they give and enhancement bonus to natural armour, which stacks with the barbarians natural armor bonus just as the enhancement bonus to a suit of magical full plate stacks with it's armour bonus.
A Barbarian gets a bonus to all will saves while raging and a Savage Barbarian can still select the Increased Damage Reduction rage power. As well as having north of 400 hp while raging,
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The savage warrior works perfectly fine the way he is - he gets up to +7 AC from just leveling, and on top of that can have +8 bracers. That is an effective total of 15 AC. Compare to pure fighter that can have +5 full-plate to get to 14 AC and a cap on dexterity bonus to AC.
I play a savage barbarian in one campaign, and she has no trouble out-AC'ing the rest of the party at level 11 (with 33 AC - with some play room to increase AC more with items).
Not quite. The Fighter can get mundane full plate (+9 AC) and up to +8 Amulet of Natural Armor, which savage barbarian cannot, since Natural Toughness gives a natural armor bonus to AC. Of course, Amulet of Natural Armor is an order of magnitude more expensive than Bracers of Armor, but this is still mundane fullplate.
Admittedly, the savage barbarian doesn't have a Max Dex bonus, but if your dex ends up higher than 20 (+5 mod, as for a fighter in full plate with armor training 4, 7 if mithral), you're either playing above 25 point-buy, or probably not putting enough points in STR or CON.
Anyway, Fighter gets the bonuses to fear saves (Bravery) and better AC (if built sheerly for AC) and DR (Armor mastery)
The savage barbarian benefits from the amulet of natural armor too (those stack with his innate natural armor). He can take guarded stance which will (at level 20) give him +5 to AC while raging (though he also takes -2 from raging for a net +3 to AC win).
The savage barbarian focusing on AC can have higher AC than the most AC orientated fighter at high levels.
The savage barbarian is a viable build at level 20, by then he has comparable AC to other builds.
The problem is low level. A fighter can theoretically wear a full plate at level 1 if he can pay for it somehow, but at level 2 or 3 or so he should be able to afford it.
The savage barbarian basicly starts with 0, and it raises very slow in the beginning speeding up in the endgame. It should be the other way around.
At levels 1 through to 6 you can simply (and without suffering consequences) wear normal medium armor. No trouble with AC there. From level 7 onwards the natural AC starts increasing, you can still use armor instead, but by that point it is worthwile investing in a good set of bracers or a stash of potions of mage armor.
Once you reach level 10 (+2 dodge, +2 natural armor) there is no incentive to stay with armor any more, and the progression to potions of mage armor, or +4 to +5 bracers can be made.
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At levels 1 through to 6 you can simply (and without suffering consequences) wear normal medium armor. No trouble with AC there.
I guess expectations differ among players. To me, an "unarmored" archetype that relies on either armor or bracers of armor throughout its whole career is a disappointment.
At levels 1 through to 6 you can simply (and without suffering consequences) wear normal medium armor. No trouble with AC there.I guess expectations differ among players. To me, an "unarmored" archetype that relies on either armor or bracers of armor throughout its whole career is a disappointment.
To be honest, I'd have rather seen it focus on something besides AC to benefit for not wearing armor. Giving up metal based AC to get skin based AC is not fundamentally that different of a feel.
At levels 1 through to 6 you can simply (and without suffering consequences) wear normal medium armor. No trouble with AC there. From level 7 onwards the natural AC starts increasing, you can still use armor instead, but by that point it is worthwile investing in a good set of bracers or a stash of potions of mage armor.
Yes, of course I could wear armor. But playing an unarmored archetype and having to wear armor... that's just silly. Sorry. There's not really a mechanical reason to play this archetype as it doesn't actually get better than the default, so the only reason to do so, is because you want it for your RP concept or similar reasons. And then having to actually wear armor...
The savage barbarian benefits from the amulet of natural armor too (those stack with his innate natural armor). He can take guarded stance which will (at level 20) give him +5 to AC while raging (though he also takes -2 from raging for a net +3 to AC win).
The savage barbarian focusing on AC can have higher AC than the most AC orientated fighter at high levels.
If I missed something, then my bad, but I don't see it say that they stack. The rules (Core Rulebook p. 208 under "Combining Magic Effects") state that two bonuses of the same type do not stack with each other (i.e. a natural armor bonus cannot stack with an amulet of natural armor, bracers of armor do not stack with wearing armor, etc.) and so, if this does stack for savage warrior, then its the exception.
I looked at Savage Barbarian in my APG, as well as rules for the amulet of Natural Armor and do not see where an exception is made. This may be something that has been errata'd, but I did update my books' errata recently.
If you could provide a citation, I would appreciate it. After all, I like the Savage Barbarian, and would like him to see more play against my PCs (mostly because the pre- and mid-encounter descriptions I get to use for a group of nude, Dwarf opponents makes me laugh)
The enhancement bonus provided by barkskin stacks with the target’s natural armor bonus, but not with other enhancement bonuses to natural armor. A creature without natural armor has an effective natural armor bonus of +0.
It has been confirmed by the developers that the same holds for the amulet of natural armor (which provides a "permanent" barkskin).
You are right that as a rule "same" type bonuses don't stack. Other than "dodge" the one exception is that "enhancement bonus to natural armor" stacks with "natural armor". This was done specifically to allow monsters that typically have to rely on natural armor have a way to increase their armor (since many of them cannot wear actual armor).
Fair enough, then.
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The archetype gives you a natural armor bonus. Barkskin and the amulet get you an enhancement bonus to your natural armor bonus.
The same as how armor gives you an armor bonus and enchanting it or receiving a Magic Vestment gives you an enhancement bonus to your armor bonus.
There is no special stacking going on.
The archetype gives you a natural armor bonus. Barkskin and the amulet get you an enhancement bonus to your natural armor bonus.
The same as how armor gives you an armor bonus and enchanting it or receiving a Magic Vestment gives you an enhancement bonus to your armor bonus.
There is no special stacking going on.
Right, ok, but does that mean I can wear mundane (or +1 with magical effects, in which case I wouldn't receive the +1 from the plate, but w/e) fullplate and +8 bracers of armor on top of each other? Obviously there are better things for your wrist slots, but it's a purely theoretical discussion anyway.
I've been playing around with a savage barbarian build the last few days and am inclined to agree that at level 20 it's "balanced" but not so much at lower levels. You basically do need some kind of armor at low levels, even after the Naked Couage starts to kick in. Based on the concept of the build, that's a design flaw IMO. As someone else suggested, the bonuses should start sooner or be larger at the beginning and then come more slowly. As you go on, get some Bracers of Armor and a Ring of Protection or Amulet of Natural Armor, add in an investment in a Dex-based/Weapon Finesse build with acrobatics, and you have a very viable character. Just have to think about it a little differently. (and the idea that a character build shouldn't be dependent on what items you have is myopic... Every fighter build is dependent on getting the best armor you can for your role. And if you have a level 20 fighter with mundane armor, youre either unlucky or have a sadistic DM. Same applies here.)
Still, a FAQ on this would be nice, particularly as Hero Lab has NC at every three levels.
Right, ok, but does that mean I can wear mundane (or +1 with magical effects, in which case I wouldn't receive the +1 from the plate, but w/e) fullplate and +8 bracers of armor on top of each other? Obviously there are better things for your wrist slots, but it's a purely theoretical discussion anyway.The archetype gives you a natural armor bonus. Barkskin and the amulet get you an enhancement bonus to your natural armor bonus.
The same as how armor gives you an armor bonus and enchanting it or receiving a Magic Vestment gives you an enhancement bonus to your armor bonus.
There is no special stacking going on.
"Bracers of armor and ordinary armor do not stack. If a creature receives a larger armor bonus from another source, the bracers of armor cease functioning and do not grant their armor bonus or their armor special abilities. If the bracers of armor grant a larger armor bonus, the other source of armor ceases functioning."
From the description of bracers of armor.
"Bracers of armor and ordinary armor do not stack. If a creature receives a larger armor bonus from another source, the bracers of armor cease functioning and do not grant their armor bonus or their armor special abilities. If the bracers of armor grant a larger armor bonus, the other source of armor ceases functioning."
From the description of bracers of armor.
Yeah, I found that. guess I should've reposted and saved you the time *shrug*
Alright then.
Finally! I can use my powers for good!!
Mwahahahahahahaha!!!!
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Gonna throw some possibly unpopular ideas out.
1 - Archetypes are not meant for mechanical advantage. They're meant for flavor. It's quite possible that the Savage Warrior is simply underpowered by design.
2 - There's a balancing act that goes into any archetype. The bonus to saves might be considered strong enough that they needed to "nerf" the build elsewhere.
Honestly I build all my barbarians as "I'm going to get hit, so f$!$ it," and never worry about AC. Even at low level I expect to get hit. That's part of the thrill and trade off of playing a barbarian. If I wanted to avoid being hit, I'd play a fighter.
To that point, I'm also rarely the "first one in". I'm not kicking down doors and rushing into a room ahead of my party. That's just not smart tactical thinking in any case.
People often seem to overlook that Bracers of Armor = Armor enhancement cost-wise, so any question of having or not having armor is generally a question of base armor values vs. alternative.
So +1AC at 3, +2AC at 7, +3AC at 9, +4AC at 10... nothing amazing, but throw-in the fact that you're saving on a mithral breastplate and can throw that cash into better Bracers of Armor and it's not really that different.
Throw a level of Martial Artist Monk into the mix, maybe there's a strong concept going...
Bracers of Armor are nice, but that doesn't really alleviate the low level problems the archetype has.
Levels 1 and 2 you gain nothing. You lose nothing, either. So mechanically this is fine, but it means if you're looking to play the unarmored warrior concept that the archetype promotes you don't actually get any support for it at this stage of the game.
Level 3 your ability finally comes online, but the trades can be pretty rough. You lose a lot of ac (and trap sense but who cares) for +1 to saves against fear and that's just not a great trade. Even if they're not going breastplate, +1 chain shirt regular barb vs +1 bracers savage barb is losing 3 AC to get +1 to saves against fear and 1 less ACP. Not a fantastic trade.
Once you hit 7 and you're running +2 ac from class features it becomes a bit less painful and then at level 9 you're effectively running studded leather, which isn't exactly great but it's certainly approaching functional. Then at 10 you're matching that chain shirt and only two points behind a breastplate. The loss of DR sucks, but DR 1 at level 7 is pretty inconsequential most of the time, so meh.
Frankly, the power curve of this archetype is goofy. At level 3 you tank your AC for +1 to saves vs fear and then don't gain anything else for four levels. Then you gain +3 AC and +1 to those saves across the next four levels and the archetype goes from pretty terrible to pretty okay just like that... Then the four levels after that gives you +1 to AC again.
There's this really big power spike in the 7-10 range that completely changes the dynamic of the archetype and from a design perspective it really bothers me, because now the question of whether or not the archetype is worth bothering with pretty much revolves solely around how quickly you're going to hit that level range.
Oh and speaking of Damage Reduction... Savage Barbarian is the second APG Barbarian archetype that suggests you take increased damage reduction despite gaining no benefit from it. I find that funny.
Bracers of Armor are nice, but that doesn't really alleviate the low level problems the archetype has.
You can always just wear armor until you evolve into naked-guy... or you can figure out how to grab Mage Armor somehow.
Or... go Martial Artist (or full-on Monk with the Aasimar Monk alignment trait, or just alignment-switched-once-hitting-the-outside-world-Monk)/ Savage Barbarian? Maybe flurry a Monk sword in two hands and eventually grab pounce-flurry? I mean, maybe not the strongest Archetype out there, but unarmored character has its uses.
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Well that is the problem at low levels your armor doesn't get much of anything. No big deal, just axe it down, but at higher levels it gains you nothing. Everything that is melee at that level is going to hit you, because you missed out on enhancement bonuses for your armor.
I found out of that the class ability it traded had a more beneficial scaling, I wonder why the design team did not choose the same scaling.
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I like the idea of my barbarian not wearing armor, but is the Savage Barbarian archetype that's supposed to do that completely stupid?
If my calculations are correct, then at level 20 you gain +8 AC from this, up to level 7 its just +1 AC only.
In return you loose your DR and armor.I mean, a normal, otherwise non-magical Mithral Breastplate is almost as good, allows you to tumble and you still have your DR.
I mean I have no problem that armor is better than no armor, thats sort of the point, but this archetype gives no advantage at all.I guess you can still use Bracers of Armor with it, to get a better AC again, but what really bugs me is that it says those barbarians trained to "toughen their skin" and then they loose their DR... that just makes no sense.
I dunno, just going Invulnerable Rager and simply not wearing armor sounds like a better way to make this concept work than the archetype that's designed for it. Well not done the math, so that could be a horrible idea too.
Savage Barbarian is just a poorly created archetype. Doesn't swap out your starting proficiencies, so you have medium and light armor, despite gaining an ability that makes you not want to wear it. Then at 7th, you gain natural armor, but it doesn't stack existing natural armor, so not really a good option for a naturally armored race.
That Savage Technologist (Technology Guide) is probably a better naked barbarian if going that route. Adds Dex instead of Con (So +4 Str and +4 Dex), so you end up finding actual armor to be impractical anyway (since your dex to AC is very high). Plus removes the penalty to AC while raging, which makes it effectively give you +4 AC over a normal raging barbarian. Class is built around firearms, but unlike many archetypes, it doesn't force you to use any specific weapons while using the archetype.
An Archetype is bad if some a-typical race doesn't get as much benefit from it? And because you get to keep something you may want to start-out using, but eventually won't?
Savage Technologist is great in many ways, but not gaining the typical +6 or more to CON takes away something a lot of Barbarians prize.
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An Archetype is bad if some a-typical race doesn't get as much benefit from it? And because you get to keep something you may want to start-out using, but eventually won't?
No, that archetype is bad. I'm not making an archetype evalutating template, just commenting about that one. I find it a disappointing archetype.
As for natural armor being "a-typical" I very much disagree there. Half-orks and dwarves have the Ironhide feat option. Nagaji and Skinwalkers have natural armor stock. Oreads, Changlings and Tieflings have racial trait swaps for natural armor. Blessing of the Feast and Blighted Physiology are both trait options to gain natural armor. If I were running a "Savage" barbarian, my first idea would be to select a race with natural armor since those are typically the races that would have savage barbarians.
I think the archetype should swap medium and light armor for other feats or class abilities. If I were GM, I'd houserule rule it, but I'm not GM. For houserule suggestions, I'd grant dodge and toughness as bonus feats instead of light and medium armor proficency. Shouldn't break the class or create balance issues.
Anyway, if you don't like the Savage Technologist, there are lots of other, good barbarian archetypes that could pull off this concept. Could also select another class, and just run it as a barbarian.
Although not PFS legal, the True Primitiative Barbarian archetype is really fun to play. For the record, that one is likely banned because of the "illiteracy" rule, not for balance reasons. PFS bans illiterate PC options (as well as PC options which prevent the PC from knowing common...). Banning those is a good choice for organized play, I think, but this archtype should be fine for home games.
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Being able to spend a feat taking Ironhide - instead of Dodge? - if you're one of three races, or using an alternate racial trait for one of three less common races, or being a specific uncommon race, does not make characters with an intrinsic natural armor bonus 'typical'. And even if it was fairly common to find characters with simple natural armor bonuses, an Archetype isn't "bad" because there are some choices with some races that aren't ideal for it.
I don't think Savage Barbarian is the best Archetype out there, but it has a niche; having some Monk is the obvious move. It's probably worth noting that it stacks with Savage Technologist or Urban Barbarian.