| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ok.. I keep reading about these unbalanced WiZarD's that wipe the floor with everything. I have yet to see ONE build posted. As i play a wizard alot (running 2 wizards and a sorcerer, currently). I would like to see a "god wizard" built out to 20th lvl with a complete spell list. It must be playable (defense + offence), no stupid dump stats,etc. 25 pt build.
I must be holding the wrong end of the wand or something... :)
I would like to see a "god wizard" built out to 20th lvl with a complete spell list.
See, that's one of those situations where you're asking a question that doesn't actually have an answer. Like, "So, have you stopped beating your wife yet?" to one of my single friends.
The right spell list is tailored to what you intend to do that day.
Even the best "standard" prepared spell list you could ever come up with is always, always, always an answer to the wrong question.
agree with mongoose
But besides that, i think you can find a complete guide with "how to be a GOD" on this link
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/treatmonks-lab/test
treantmonk makes some pretty nice guides, and especially his wizard guide is very very good.
How are you getting your init up with a dex 10? Improved init obviously, but that still puts you behind a large number of boilerplate monsters.
I would like to see a "god wizard" built out to 20th lvl with a complete spell list.See, that's one of those situations where you're asking a question that doesn't actually have an answer. Like, "So, have you stopped beating your wife yet?" to one of my single friends.
The right spell list is tailored to what you intend to do that day.
Even the best "standard" prepared spell list you could ever come up with is always, always, always an answer to the wrong question.
With the limitation of PF Core + APG, I don't see how there's really that many viable options. That's only one or two SoS/SoD spells per level. And the low level ones are pretty lackluster.
I haven't seen a God wizard, either. Without access to spells outside of PF and a 5-minute workday, Wizards are pretty well balanced in combat.
Outside of combat is a different story. By mid-levels, Wizards have a spell that can ignore most mundane challenges like travel or the environment. Non-casters are still screwed, however.
Thats pretty much how I see it. In combat, casters are nice but lack any real reliability. Save or sucks take resources and work less than half the time. In the same time, a fighter can fairly reliably kill most monsters in 2-3 rounds. This usually puts the combat wizard in a better position buffing the fighter or controlling the battlefield (reducing the number of enemies who can attack at any 1 time through walls/entangle/ect) than trying to get the kill himself. Out of combat, the casters have easy-buttons for limmitted problem sets, but generally cannot do anything that mundane people cannot do until you hit very high levels. Travel is the only really big thing they can do that no one else can mimic, and that is of limmitted importance from campaign to campaign.
Save or sucks take resources and work less than half the time.
If this is the case, you're probably doing it wrong.
The whole point is that Wizards jack their DCs as high as possible, and use the rest of the party to deal damage.
You just lay down Black Tentacles while you're flying/invisible/mirror imaged/whatever.
Just look at Haste. Man does that spell do a TON of damage! It's not that wizards are the best all by themselves (although they probably are, but it's a different argument), it's that in a group they are easily the best member because of the situations they create in combats and out. If you have four fighters, replacing one with a Wizard is a gigantic boost in power. If you have 4 wizards, replacing one with a fighter isn't quite the same power boost (although it's nice as then the fighter can be buffed by the wizards and made into something more useful).
And the standard rule is: If you're not summoning, you're not trying hard enough. Summon spells are pretty dang nice. That group of 4 Wizards will usually have some pretty sweet "fighters" out by round 2. Round one...well....they're invisible/flying/wall of forcing/whatever.
Obviously you can respond by creating situations where wizards aren't perfect or are limited (OMG!1!!!1 You didn't know combat was coming and the fighter (with feats perfectly designed to fight wizards) is already standing next to you and gets a surprise round...)
Thats pretty much how I see it. In combat, casters are nice but lack any real reliability. Save or sucks take resources and work less than half the time. In the same time, a fighter can fairly reliably kill most monsters in 2-3 rounds. This usually puts the combat wizard in a better position buffing the fighter or controlling the battlefield (reducing the number of enemies who can attack at any 1 time through walls/entangle/ect) than trying to get the kill himself. Out of combat, the casters have easy-buttons for limmitted problem sets, but generally cannot do anything that mundane people cannot do until you hit very high levels. Travel is the only really big thing they can do that no one else can mimic, and that is of limmitted importance from campaign to campaign.
Pretty much, yes. It doesn't matter if the save-or-whatever spell is astronomically difficult to save against, a 20 is still a success, and what happens then? It's good for thinning the ranks of attackers, it's good for some occasions, but it isn't what I'd rely on.
Battlefield control is much better, it keeps the enemy away from you and ensures that everyone else gets a cut of the action to boot. The strength of a wizard, though, is versatility: magic can do almost anything. The only hard part is choosing which part of anything you want to do, and how that works with the rest of the party.
Pretty much, yes. It doesn't matter if the save-or-whatever spell is astronomically difficult to save against, a 20 is still a success, and what happens then?
Then the other 3 or more characters do something that round.
Odds of rolling 4 20s in a row: 1 in 160000.
And god forbid they're using PF Persistent Spell. Good luck rolling 8 20s.
The whole point is that Wizards jack their DCs as high as possible, and use the rest of the party to deal damage.
You just lay down Black Tentacles while you're flying/invisible/mirror imaged/whatever.
Just look at Haste. Man does that spell do a TON of damage! It's not that wizards are the best all by themselves (although they probably are, but it's a different argument), it's that in a group they are easily the best member because of the situations they create in combats and out. If you have four fighters, replacing one with a Wizard is a gigantic boost in power. If you have 4 wizards, replacing one with a fighter isn't quite the same power boost (although it's nice as then the fighter can be buffed by the wizards and made into something more useful).
And the standard rule is: If you're not summoning, you're not trying hard enough. Summon spells are pretty dang nice. That group of 4 Wizards will usually have some pretty sweet "fighters" out by round 2. Round one...well....they're invisible/flying/wall of forcing/whatever.
Obviously you can respond by creating situations where wizards aren't perfect or are limited (OMG!1!!!1 You didn't know combat was coming and the fighter (with feats perfectly designed to fight wizards) is already standing next to you and gets a surprise round...)
Honestly, I find summons to be quite useless. Spend 1 full round, during which time you are more vulnerable than normal, to cast a spell and summon something that will pretty much be ignored. There are a couple decent things on the summon list, but generally even the highest level summons wont be able to hit the standard monster ACs your fighting with any reliability. At best, I find summon monsters to be a speed bump for 1-2 rounds. This is not worth it unless you have annother player taking out the monster in that time. The summoned monsters are 2-5 CR behind what would be relevant in most combats.
Some of the monsters with SLA can be useful, but for that you need to be using up high level summon slots.
Pretty much, yes. It doesn't matter if the save-or-whatever spell is astronomically difficult to save against, a 20 is still a success, and what happens then?Then the other 3 or more characters do something that round.
Odds of rolling 4 20s in a row: 1 in 160000.
And god forbid they're using PF Persistent Spell. Good luck rolling 8 20s.
As opposed to 2 melee characters teaming up and killing it in 1 round, the wizard casting a wall so that the monster's friends can't gang up on them, and the 4th man still having an undecided action? I would take a more ballanced party over the all wizard one any day. Less squishy, able to handle more monsters over time, and not using limmitted resources every action.
Honestly, I find summons to be quite useless. Spend 1 full round, during which time you are more vulnerable than normal, to cast a spell and summon something that will pretty much be ignored. There are a couple decent things on the summon list, but generally even the highest level summons wont be able to hit the standard monster ACs your fighting with any reliability. At best, I find summon monsters to be a speed bump for 1-2 rounds. This is not worth it unless you have annother player taking out the monster in that time. The summoned monsters are 2-5 CR behind what would be relevant in most combats.
Well, wait. Sometimes you can use an huge elemental as a walking wall, or a lillend for few healings more. You are not forced to summon during the heat of the combat.
Summons are wonderful spells, very versatile, IMO.
I agree with you on SoD, 'though.
As opposed to 2 melee characters teaming up and killing it in 1 round, the wizard casting a wall so that the monster's friends can't gang up on them, and the 4th man still having an undecided action? I would take a more ballanced party over the all wizard one any day. Less squishy, able to handle more monsters over time, and not using limmitted resources every action.
Now you're moving the goalposts.
If we're dealing with a lot of enemies (the kind of stuff that two fighters are going to kill in a round... especially with single attacks, unless they're archers or magical teleporting fighters), unless they're very spread out, SoS/SoD typically cleans them up better than single tough enemies, because you're about guaranteed to get at least one and probably many combatants out of the fight with each cast. Something like Confusion isn't great against a single opponent, but it cleans up a herd of moderate to weak ones like nobody's business.
Every character uses limited resources to fight.
Ok.. I keep reading about these unbalanced WiZarD's that wipe the floor with everything. I have yet to see ONE build posted. As i play a wizard alot (running 2 wizards and a sorcerer, currently). I would like to see a "god wizard" built out to 20th lvl with a complete spell list. It must be playable (defense + offence), no stupid dump stats,etc. 25 pt build.
I must be holding the wrong end of the wand or something... :)
Are those the only stipulations? 25 points buy, no dump stats, and playable? I'm assuming standard wealth by level for 20th level? And do you want tactics? A bit busy today so I might not get to this for a while, but I'll take a stab at it.
I would like to see a "god wizard" built out to 20th lvl with a complete spell list.See, that's one of those situations where you're asking a question that doesn't actually have an answer. Like, "So, have you stopped beating your wife yet?" to one of my single friends.
The right spell list is tailored to what you intend to do that day.
Even the best "standard" prepared spell list you could ever come up with is always, always, always an answer to the wrong question.
I would really like to see what someone considers a maxed wizard up to at least 15th lvl with a "im prepared for the day" spell list that is playable and considered "unbalanced". I just dont get that feeling from the characters I am playing. Yea, they are good.. but not gods.
I am trying to see where wizards are getting all the flak from being "OP".
Yea, they are good.. but not gods.
Read the Treantmonk guide upthread. It's all his fault. :P
What he means by god and what you mean by god are very different things.
Edited to add: And again, prepared for the day... for what? Fighting gnolls, centipedes, demons, undead? Dungeon crawling? Investigation? Etc. etc. etc. Trying to pick a "general" spell list for a wizard is like building a fighter and saying: This fighter uses Bull Rush. That's what he's going to do every round no matter what.
Are those the only stipulations? 25 points buy, no dump stats, and playable? I'm assuming standard wealth by level for 20th level? And do you want tactics? A bit busy today so I might not get to this for a while, but I'll take a stab at it.
Anything is fine as long as its core and apg. No 3.5 splat. I really would like to see how this would play out.
I can (and have) statted a 20th lvl wizard with all the fireworks. But I still dont see were wizards are OMG UR OP!! Is there something im missing? Granted... I havent played at that level, so on paper things may look different.
Edit: I have read Treantmonks guide to being a god. Also, pick your posion and make a spell list. Have fun with it! :)
As opposed to 2 melee characters teaming up and killing it in 1 round, the wizard casting a wall so that the monster's friends can't gang up on them, and the 4th man still having an undecided action? I would take a more ballanced party over the all wizard one any day. Less squishy, able to handle more monsters over time, and not using limmitted resources every action.Now you're moving the goalposts.
No, I think she's talking about 'real' encounters.
Every character uses limited resources to fight.
This is true. Which resources they are, how they get used up, how easily they replenish etc. are different, though. A wizard's resources are his spells, a fighters are his hit points. Hit points, though, are easier to replenish artificially than spells.
I would agree with Caineach that a balanced party is better as an all-round surviving party than a party of wizards. I agree the party of wizards will spam through 9/10 encounters, it's that 1/10 that's really going to hurt them.
I would agree with Caineach that a balanced party is better as an all-round surviving party than a party of wizards. I agree the party of wizards will spam through 9/10 encounters, it's that 1/10 that's really going to hurt them.
Who's talking all wizards? A balanced party has both arcane and divine casters. :)
I would agree with Caineach that a balanced party is better as an all-round surviving party than a party of wizards. I agree the party of wizards will spam through 9/10 encounters, it's that 1/10 that's really going to hurt them.Who's talking all wizards? A balanced party has both arcane and divine casters. :)
I suppose the clerics have a prayer when the magic fails then ... {drums!}
|
There are many routes to create powerful wizards, but I've been playing around with this idea for a level 10 wizard (as an NPC) for a bit and thought to share.
Take an evil, necromancy focused wizard, high int, some positive charisma and whatever else you feel like. The charisma is for the command undead ability. Then with the charisma leadership feat is an obvious optimization. For a necromancer a negative energy cleric is also a logical choice.
From here these two will kill and animate everything they see in sight. They can also create undead at higher levels and take control of those too. So assuming they combine efforts, between the two of them they can control 90HD worth of undead at level 10. At level 20 this will scale to 190HD worth. The effective cost of this army is just the HDx25gp so for a high level character it's minimal expenditure.
Now this wizard walks into battle with a small army under his command and he'll still have a full compliment of spells to use.
I'm sure that there are single characters out there which can deal with this wizard, but its quite a powerful concept none the less.
Removing leadership will still allow for 50HD worth of undead at level 10 and 100HD at level 20.
Though any sane GM will never allow this, it is by the book. :)
Anything is fine as long as its core and apg. No 3.5 splat. I really would like to see how this would play out.
I can (and have) statted a 20th lvl wizard with all the fireworks. But I still dont see were wizards are OMG UR OP!! Is there something im missing? Granted... I havent played at that level, so on paper things may look different.
Edit: I have read Treantmonks guide to being a god. Also, pick your posion and make a spell list. Have fun with it! :)
K I will get started as soon as I have some free time. I have been very busy lately so this may take a few days. I will post the wizard however even if I have to make a new thread about it :)
Honestly, I find summons to be quite useless. Spend 1 full round, during which time you are more vulnerable than normal, to cast a spell and summon something that will pretty much be ignored. There are a couple decent things on the summon list, but generally even the highest level summons wont be able to hit the standard monster ACs your fighting with any reliability.
Not true. I will start at 10th level
Any serious summoner will have augment summoner. Barring that I agree, don't summon as a regular tacticAC 24 is average for CR 10 monsters.
Summon Monster 5
Babau
Melee 2 claws + 14 (1d6+7), bite +14 (1d6+7) or longspear +14/+9 (1d8+9), bite +9 (1d6+4)
Kyton Melee 4 chains +13 (2d4+6)
Brelani Melee +1 scimitar +15/+10 (1d6+10/18-20) or slam +14 (1d6+9)
They are also subject to the same buffs as the rest of the party.
They also have SLA's depending on the summon that are useful.
A wizard by himself is not necessarily a god character. He's usually quite squishy. He can certainly buff himself to help with that, but then he's got even less to work with to change the world later. If he's with a group that can protect him though he can certainly be a game changer. Battlefield control, SoD effects, or even just more damage can all make their inputs useful. For those that don't find summons useful, you haven't really looked through the options for your summons, though you do have to learn a few languages to allow you to have some of them do more than just attack.
The OP is wanting something that does not exist if he is looking for a wizard that is always ready for everything. I think he needs to understand that the wizards rule is based more on potential than "will happen", and those that have a wizard ready for everything when posting here will never give him any credit.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Ok the problem with Save or Die is the monster's bonuses to save stay rather consistantly at the 45~55% mark compared to a completely optimized caster's DC.
Let's consider maximum DC by level:
Level 1:
IF you use the PFS variant wizard this is going to be your best level (or if you are human). You start with a 20 casting stat, add in spell focus and greater spell focus puts you at DC 18. With a gnome you and the PFS variant wizard you have a DC 19 with color spray.
Level 3: DC 19(DC20... but you are now out of good SoD spells from the illusion school until 7th level -- after that you are out pretty much all together -- and hope you don't face anything with mind affecting resistance/immunities! *unlikely but you can still hope).
Level 5: DC 21 First point you can really afford a stat boost item and you are casting level 3 spells.
Level 7: DC 22
Level 9: DC 25 (2 level boosts now and a +4 item)
Level 11: DC 26
Level 13: DC 28 (3 level boosts +6 item)
Level 15: DC 30 (3 level boosts +6 item +2 book of casting stat)* DC 32 (arcane bloodline sorcerer school boost)
Level 17: DC 33 (4 level boosts +6 item +4 book)* 34 (sorcerer)
Level 20: DC 34 (5 level boosts +6 item +5 book)* 36 (sorcerer with school boost)
Now let's look at the save bonus average of monsters of equal CR:
(CR: Good Save/ Poor Save)
CR 1: +4/+1
CR 3: +6/+2
CR 5: +8/+4
CR 7: +10/+6
CR 9: +12/+8
CR 11: +14/+10
CR 13: +16/+12
CR 15: +18/+13
CR 17: +20/+15
CR 20: +22/+17
Precentage chance of success of SoD spell:
Level 1: 65%/80%
Level 3: 60%/80%
Level 5: 60%/80%
Level 7: 55%/75%
Level 9: 60%/80%
Level 11: 55%/75%
Level 13: 55%/75%
Level 15: 55%/80%
Level 17: 60%/70%
Level 20: 55%/80%
Now consider that SoD/SoS spells come in two flavors: Will save or Fortitude Save. Of the monsters in the Bestiary 2 types have almost complete immunity to both of those sorts of saves: Undead, and Constructs. Vermin and Oozes are immune to most of the Will save type SoD/SoS spells, as are most plants (but by no means all).
The following is the "general" types that have good will or fortitude saves -- please note the "general" part of that -- many creatures (like outsiders) have a "poor" rating in a save only to actually have as good as a bonus in that save as in their "good" save (which is to say they are both actually good):
Will: Aberration, Fey, Monstrous Humanoid
Fort: Vermin, Plant, Magical Beast, animal
Both: Dragons
That said:
A generalist with an arcane bond (amulet) is a great choice after the APG. There is an amulet that when it is your Arcane bond allows you to choose one school of magic each day. During that day you may sacrifice spells prepared to instead cast spells of the school of magic you chose (of the spell level sacrificed or lower).
Add this to the ability to spontaneously (and for free) metamagic spells as the day goes on and you have a very versatile caster.
My recommendation on school (for the amulet) would be conjuration. It offers the most types of spells has most of the good fall backs.
After level 5 with any prepared caster that can reprep spells later on I try to leave at least 1/3 of my slots unprepared for spells I'll want later in the day.
Finally pearls of power are your friends. Keep as many as you can because you never know when you'll need a spell again -- and don't be afraid to use them -- after all they'll renew the next day and if you used the spell once, you'll probably want it again.
Ok the problem with Save or Die is the monster's bonuses to save stay rather consistantly at the 45~55% mark compared to a completely optimized caster's DC.
Let's consider maximum DC by level:
{interesting results}
Wow, I knew save-or-whatever was not to be relied upon ... but this really spells it out. It's good when it works but with an average 35% chance of having no effect at all ...
A 50% chance of success on a spell that targets multiple enemies (or even one really tough one) is pretty awesome.
If I'm fighting 4 enemies and I can take out 2 in one round...from range I consider that pretty powerful. Not to mention there might even be a partial effect no matter what, or I might get more than two (or less than two, but in that case, oh well, even fighters waste rounds by missing).
If I can make an encounter with one really tough enemy into a coinflip on that first round, that's also very, very powerful.
I just don't see how these spells are being portrayed as "not as good as people think"....
.......Narrativists, in particular, will come to absolutely LOATHE a SOD/SOS caster. Frequently, you'll find that their saving throw rolls will miserably fail a chi-square or similar test when dealing with major enemies....And? Cheating DMs are not a valid counter argument to effective tactics.
I gotta agree with CoD this time.
Yeah, I don't cheat to save my NPCs. They have to survive like everyone else. I just make em higher level and give them serious cohorts.
I too. In 1-2 times happened a 20-20-hit (autokill rule) to the BBEG and I simply made him die. If PCs are clever and/or lucky, no reason to punish them.
Better plan and make them real, terrible threats. Most time PCs will struggle, no reason to make them pay too much the few times this does not happen.
I'd say at least half of all GMs fit the description I've cited. Check the fudging marathon thread from a month or so ago. Many narrativists don't even consider what they do as cheating.
You may be right, but no good will come of accommodating that in the discussion of rules balance. That way lies madness. Give an NPC some hero points if you must, but discussing the mechanical effectiveness of a class? No, we have to leave GM intervention out.
I still think GMing is relevant, up to (not including) the point where dice results are fudged. GMs solve a lot of problems simply by being awake and enforcing the availability of items and the passage of time RAW. That is the biggest limit on Wizard power, IMO.
I'd say at least half of all GMs fit the description I've cited. Check the fudging marathon thread from a month or so ago. Many narrativists don't even consider what they do as cheating.I gotta agree with CoD this time........Narrativists, in particular, will come to absolutely LOATHE a SOD/SOS caster. Frequently, you'll find that their saving throw rolls will miserably fail a chi-square or similar test when dealing with major enemies....And? Cheating DMs are not a valid counter argument to effective tactics.
I was in that thread, and I don't think most of the pro-fudgers agreed to fudge against players. Many fudged only for the players. I just jack the modifier up to save against SoD'ers. I will also target the SoD'er. I don't think there is anything wrong with that though. If he had not proven his ability to instantly end my bad guy he would not have to deal with the focus fire in his direction.
And a 65% chance of ending the fight RIGHT NOW.
Say, how's your damage output? Can it end the fight RIGHT NOW?
Unless you are level 1, and fighting a single opponent there is a 0% chance it will do so.
65% success rate trumps 0% any day.
And if it doesn't work, do it again. And again. And again. That's round 1. There's an 80/81 chance there won't be a round 2.
Last I checked, near 99% success rates were better than 0% success rates.
Actually most martial characters can be sure that a single opponent will drop in the second round -- solo if it takes them that long. Also with AC's that mean the monster will hardly ever hit -- with save throw bonuses that are -- at miminum -- tied with the SoD caster.
Finally you have 6 maximum (for a wizard) of your highest level spell slots. Usually you have a total of 3~4 -- from which your other spells must also be drawn. Once those highest slots are empty your chances of success drops significantly.
However the martialist doesn't run out of swings.
So...
Why not let the martialist drop things in one or two rounds and instead focus on the things he can't do better, faster, and easier than the caster can?
99% chances are nice -- unfortunately that's the percentage chance the martial character will drop the monster before the wizard gets done wasting spells.
And a 65% chance of ending the fight RIGHT NOW.
Say, how's your damage output? Can it end the fight RIGHT NOW?
Unless you are level 1, and fighting a single opponent there is a 0% chance it will do so.
65% success rate trumps 0% any day.
And if it doesn't work, do it again. And again. And again. That's round 1. There's an 80/81 chance there won't be a round 2.
Are you saying you're casting you highest level spell three times in the first round of combat? First off, how? Secondly, what are you going to do the rest of the fights for the day?
Thirdly, what are the odds you prepared all your highest level spells in an effective way? Say at a given level - we'll take level 5 because it's a decent level where he starts getting long range spells (no, you aren't going to drop color spray again and again and again). Even with a 22 casting stat at that point, and a bonded item, you're looking at 4 spells (if you're a specialist).Say the days trip is that you're going to dive into the mountainous lair of an evil orc cleric and his pet bear that has enslaved, among other things, a goblin tribe. Your goal is to rescue a paladin and stop the constant raids on the trade routs, as well as find out if the cleric is allied with a certain demon you've encountered before. This is a real example from an adventure I DM'ed not so long ago.
The number of fights is a little above average - there are 5 of them, I give you that, so it's maybe a little tougher for the wizard than it usually is. We'll assume the party otherwise is a standard setup; they won't be very active during this example but are there in both cases.
What 3rd and 2nd level spells are you going to prepare? I can tell you that not a single spell I can find core would work during all encounters. They all have limitations.
|
25 PB is 8/10/16/18/10/10. Racial bonus to Int of course. All level up points to Int. CWI at the earliest opportunity, use it to craft things like Int/Con boosters (highest priority) along with other wondrous items.
Your combat tactics are both simple and complex. Get your init up, then hit the enemies with a high DC save or lose that will work on them. How do you know what works? Knowledge skills.
Sure at level 1 and 2, you'll have Color Spray and that's about it but past that you can diversify so you can hit anything you want.
No need for a complete build, as there is a great deal of freedom as long as you follow that template.
Of course no need for a complete build. That would allow us to check your work...
I was in that thread, and I don't think most of the pro-fudgers agreed to fudge against players. Many fudged only for the players. I just jack the modifier up to save against SoD'ers. I will also target the SoD'er. I don't think there is anything wrong with that though. If he had not proven his ability to instantly end my bad guy he would not have to deal with the focus fire in his direction.What's the difference? Fudging the d20 roll or the modifier, both end with the same result. And I think most DMs are doing one or the other. The last group of DMs simply choose monsters with saves necessary to ignore the SoD/SoS caster.
SoD/SoS is just a recipe for an unhappy group -- even when you succeed with one, the pleasure is short lived and often turns to regret anyway. They're only fun when you're fighting mooks, and it's expected to one-shot a bunch of them every action.
The difference is that the modifier can be overcome. The fudge is an auto-win, and gives the player no chance. SoD/SoS only gives some people issues. I don't think it is fair to say it is always an issue.
To be more precise I only make sure my bosses have a high changed of not being SoD'd. Now if the players get creative or use a spell I did not think about then the victory is theirs.
Now consider that SoD/SoS spells come in two flavors: Will save or Fortitude Save
That's not strictly true. Situationally, Grease, Entangle, Web, the Pit line of spells, and many more are Reflex spells that very often do enough. The golem falls into a pit and, long story short, that's pretty much it for him.
There are always spells in each category for just about anything -- even undead can be Glitterdusted and Disintegrated if you're of a mind to do it.
Finally, if you're really going for the best case, your calculus is going to include the APG metamagic feats that shore up the all-or-nothing-ness of SoS spells, such as Persistent or Bouncing. (Or rods of these.)
Dire Mongoose Valid points. Let's consider them.
First off the only way you are going to applying those metamagic effects on the best DC's you can manage is with metamagic rods. I know, I know, "but Abraham, spell perfection..."
Which doesn't actually fix the problem -- the earliest you can get spell perfection is 15th level -- at which point you are casting 8th level spells. Now if taken then with an 8th level spell you could bounce it -- but then, if you are bouncing it, and have a second target you aren't in a CR = APL fight. Which means either you are in a higher CR fight, or you are fighting multiple lesser monsters -- namely two CR 13 monsters, which have +16 on their save throws giving you a 65% chance of success which means bouncing it isn't a bad idea. Persistent spell isn't an option for spell perfection since you can't go over the 9th level limit with spell perfection. Now if you wait until 17th or 19th level and grab spell perfection with two ninth level spells (or one as a sorcerer) you can increase your chance of success at the latest levels of the game 10% due to the increase on the DC boosts from feats.
So metamagic rods: The earliest you could get a metamagic rod of bouncing is 4th level. Surprisingly the persistent spell metamagic rod is cheaper than the bouncing spell. Why? Probably a typo since the persistent spell is at higher spell level cost than bouncing.
Now you can't afford a bouncing metamagic rod and your headband until 6th level at the earliest (and that's going over the 1/2 wealth in one item line too). At which point you can affect your highest level spells. Persistent is available much sooner (probably part of a typo I maintain) at fourth level.
At 8th level if you are willing to spend a third of your gold on it then you can get a regular metamagic persistent spell rod, while the normal bouncing doesn't become available until ninth level at which point it is using up all but 14,000 gp of your WBL.
The greaters become available at 10th and 12th level respectively (again provided you are willing to spend just about all your gold on one item).
No matter how you slice it you're probably going to affect one target with these rods with a probability increase of the original percentage times itself (with good saves it's 55% success rate so 55%*55%) -- in the end it will raise your success rate to about 85% at CR=APL.
Now for each +1 the CR has on your character's level you lose about 10% off of your chance for success -- so I would recommend that if your GM says the battle is going to be "epic" (which is generally APL+3) you don't try the SoD spells -- your percentage chance of success is down about 30% in all cases.
As to the grease, web, and such. While they can set up your team to finish off the monster they are at best SoS spells -- since these will not allow you to kill anything with just the use of the spell. The pit spells dump out their victims for the most part (some exceptions of course iirc) while disintigrate can drop an undead -- it is honestly unlikely, between the to hit roll, spell resistance and the fortitude save you actually have a very low chance of success (due to the same reasons that the persistent and bouncing metamagic feats increase your chances to succeed so dramatically). Now disintigrate is a nice spell -- for out of combat, in combat I would be more likely to use it to change the battlefield than to directly damage a foe.
At highest level the main reason to not use a metamagic rod of bouncing or persistent is due to the fact you probably want to use a metamagic rod of quicken instead, and the fact you only have so many hands available to hold items (gloves of storing help of course, and familiars can be useful in this regard as well).
Final Note: The arcane sorcerer is probably the best choice for SoD spells... IF you get them all from the same school of magic. This is due to the arcane school bonus they get at level 15 which will (from that point on) put them 10% ahead of everyone else on the success rate.
The current common highest DC you can get is with a gnomish rage prophet using heavens mystery, lame curse (most likely) and color spray (most likely):
10 (Base)
+1 (gnome)
+4 (spell focus, greater spell focus, spell perfection)
+9 (spell level heightened with spell perfection)
+1 (trait)
+13 (maximum charisma boost)
+12 (maximum consitution bonus with raging and no polymorph spells cast)
DC 50 color spray