I see fragile 1st level characters as an important feature, not a problem at all. Killing PCs, especially those that get in over their heads, is OK. It sets up an important lesson right away -- that although you'll be fair, you won't coddle them or give them invincible "plot armor." In turn, that means that their accomplishments are legitimately theirs, not a pre-ordained conclusion.
Adventuring is dangerous -- if it weren't, everyone would do it.
You do start your first level characters with full hit points, right? If you don't that would explain some of the danger from a one shot death. I've rarely had a character die in the fist level. (Not unheard of, but not common.)
prime them with something low. a CR1 bad guy is about as powerful as a level 2 character, so scale appropriately.
The CR setting assumes a relatively optimised, well equipped party with access to healing, roguiness, fighting and spell slinging. If your party is Not like this, you need a quick re-assesment of the appropriateness of CR's (or types of CR's)
the brief of it is, scale down the CR if the party is sub-optimal in any way (Especially the lack of a healer..the ability to have a rest on HP is a game saver).
Could you summarise your Party so we an better assist?
Batts
That's why kobolds, goblins and the like have CR 1/3. :) And are cowardly and prone to running away as soon as one of them gets killed...
-TG
It's kind of a cheat... well, it is a cheat... but on the very rare times a first level character has died in our campaigns, we allowed the character's twin brother (or sister) to arrive on the scene and offer their services.
The first level portion of an adventure can contain interactions and story awards.
Have an encounter or two that involve the party doing skill checks. If they succeed in their goal (with a time limit), give them XP as if they defeated a CR X creature.
Have encounters against the environment and an indirect foe. Perhaps the foe poses no real direct damaging threat to the PCs, but the envirnoment can hurt them. This gives PCs the ability to decide how much danger they want to put their first level PC in and allows them to pull back.
A number of foes who are completely inept at combat, where the threat is the numbers not their ability. (Like 1d4-3 weapons) Spice up the critters with something unique but non-damaging.
Mix and match these types of encounters and the PCs will increase their hps in no time.
Yeah, what everyone above me has said.
Typical level 1 encounter should be a large group (4 - 6) CR 1/3rd creatures, or perhaps 2 - 3 CR 1/2 creatures. These guys, while they could still theoretically get lucky with a critical, don't tend to do much in terms of damage, and tend to die pretty easy (low AC, low hp), so they're perfect to keep level 1s busy.
For a boss encounter, I'd go CR 2, maybe CR 3, depending on how well built the party might be, and some CR 1/3 or 1/2 mooks for flavor and complications.
Some classes also are more dangerous than others - a CR 1 or 2 Wizard is a much bigger threat to 1st level characters than a CR 1 or 2 Fighter. So I tend to keep things simple until they're at 2nd level and start to have some padding to them. (For example, I would never, ever, throw a 1st level party against a Sorcerer/Wizard who can cast sleep or color spray. And only rarely will I bust out the orc Barbarian2/Cleric1 two hander combo, where they can easily deal damage into the upper teens regularly, with a nice combination of enlarge person, rage, and that sweet +4 racial Strength modifier, at only CR 2.)
I find that, using these guidelines, while a PC might drop into the negatives, they typically will not die short of using very poor tactics.
Give the party cleric a Wand of Cure Light Wounds "on loan" from the local temple.
Give the fighters a masterwork weapon (sword or bow) "on loan" from a retired NPC in town.
Never let the monsters "gang up" on one player. Try for the one-on-one battle, or bottleneck the bad guys so the players in back can use their range weapons and spells to full effect.
Let the bad guys fail their Morale save and run away.
Let the bad guys fail their Morale save and run away.
I do this as well pretty regularly. I've long since left behind the idea that NPCs will be fighting to the death all the time. Now most things will, once they're near death - or if fighting in a group, when the majority of the group is down, - attempt to run away.
Usually it doesn't have an impact on PC survivability - though there might be the occasional situation where the PCs fight off a large group of mooks, only to have three of the PCs be in the negatives and two mooks remaining to your one PC... perhaps the mooks think better of taking on the one dude who has so far killed a dozen of their comrades and attempt to flee.
Still - I don't think it has that big an impact on PC survivability, as much as it does on world verisimilitude. And perhaps it'll instill the idea that sometimes running away *is* an okay answer, and will stop your PCs from charging head forwards into every encounter and never back down.
I have been a DM for 3.5 for a few years, and I am new to Pathfinder. A problem that I saw in 3.5 with starting at 1st-level is that just about anything that's CR 1 could potentially kill any 1st-level player character with a max-damage hit or critical. My solution in 3.5 was to simply never start a campaign from 1st-level.
I am designing a campaign right now for this coming spring, but it is starting to look more and more like it would be too tough for a 1st-level party, even though most of the encounters are CR 1. What is the consensus among you guys here? Should I just make the PCs start at 2nd-level?
Start with CR's below 1. CR 1/4 to 1 should be the normal. Use kid gloves at low levels is what I am saying. Using more RP as opposed to combat encounters is also a way to get XP without killing players, even though it the RP situation may create other issues later on.
All ideas posted above are great.
I'll add one. If you are very worried use the Hero Points variant. To put it in their own words...
Cheat Death: A character can spend 2 hero points to cheat death. How this plays out is up to the GM, but generally the character is left alive, with negative hit points but stable. For example, a character is about to be slain by a critical hit from an arrow. If the character spends 2 hero points, the GM decides that the arrow pierced the character’s holy symbol, reducing the damage enough to prevent him from being killed, and that he made his stabilization roll at the end of his turn. Cheating death is the only way for a character to spend more than 1 hero point in a turn. The character can spend hero points in this way to prevent the death of a familiar, animal companion, eidolon, or special mount, but not another character or NPC.
Even if you did not want to use Hero points long term, giving each character a set number at character creation (2) that will never replenish, would at least give everyone 1 extra chance at life.
All ideas posted above are great.
I'll add one. If you are very worried use the Hero Points variant. To put it in their own words...
Cheat Death: A character can spend 2 hero points to cheat death. How this plays out is up to the GM, but generally the character is left alive, with negative hit points but stable. For example, a character is about to be slain by a critical hit from an arrow. If the character spends 2 hero points, the GM decides that the arrow pierced the character’s holy symbol, reducing the damage enough to prevent him from being killed, and that he made his stabilization roll at the end of his turn. Cheating death is the only way for a character to spend more than 1 hero point in a turn. The character can spend hero points in this way to prevent the death of a familiar, animal companion, eidolon, or special mount, but not another character or NPC.
Even if you did not want to use Hero points long term, giving each character a set number at character creation (2) that will never replenish, would at least give everyone 1 extra chance at life.
If I ever get to run a game again, I'm definitely thinking of starting 1st level PCs will 2 hero points for this very reason.
I have been a DM for 3.5 for a few years, and I am new to Pathfinder. A problem that I saw in 3.5 with starting at 1st-level is that just about anything that's CR 1 could potentially kill any 1st-level player character with a max-damage hit or critical. My solution in 3.5 was to simply never start a campaign from 1st-level.
I am designing a campaign right now for this coming spring, but it is starting to look more and more like it would be too tough for a 1st-level party, even though most of the encounters are CR 1. What is the consensus among you guys here? Should I just make the PCs start at 2nd-level?
HP at 1st level = Max plus Constitution score
Example: Fighter with 16 CON gets 10+2+16=28
They won't die in one hit that way. Will probably take four high damage hits.
Some things I like to do with the first few levels is set the tone for the campaign. I don't use as much combat for a few reasons, fragility is only one. I find it is a great time to introduce NPCs, the town, and a few plot hooks that may not lead to anything right away. During this time, I have a combat or two but not much especially if there isn't a healer in the group. I give other challenges that require skill checks and ability checks more. Then I give appropriate XP based on their level (usually 100*APL/#of party members). If I think the party has done well, I may give 10% bonus on XP.
Basically I use this as a great time for them to get to know their characters and do some initial role playing. It helps me with writing the rest of the campaign since I have a better understanding of how they handle different types of challenges.
I also find that using more of the lower CR creatures works better than one equal CR creature. Make sure that the players realize that they may have to run away if things get hairy.
First I will second the use of hero points, and start them off with two, if you are concerned with the "lucky crit" putting an end to their playing career at first level. I've seen a 53 point battle axe crit fall a 2nd level player just last month.
who for the first few levels will be using Gravity Bow and Enlarge Person.
hate to point it out
All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly enlarged by the spell. Melee weapons affected by this spell deal more damage (see Table: Tiny and Large Weapon Damage). Other magical properties are not affected by this spell. Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature's possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown and projectile weapons deal their normal damage. Magical properties of enlarged items are not increased by this spell.
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Don't go too easy on 'em, but definitely keep the GM fiat Rule Zero in mind. The best thing about those low levels is how often players succeed by the skin of their teeth sometimes, as long as you don't pull punches. If they get too close to dying, it's OK to fudge it in their favor as long as it's not obvious that you're doing so.
Also, if you are using a point-buy system or any type of "weighted" stat-rolling system for powerful PCs, keep in mind that the Bestiary monsters are balanced for a party of PCs with normal starting gold and a 15-point-buy, with the CR adjusted by normal advancement and wealth per level. That means, if you use the encounter-building rules in the Core Rulebook keep in mind these rules are for 15-point-buy PCs.
I learned the hard way, having let my players use a 25-point-buy, that in order for the players to experience any sort of challenge that all the bad guys, monsters and NPC baddies, all have to have max hit points, and at mid-levels a well-balanced party of 6 optimized 5th level PCs can take out a CR 10 creature without a single death (although every player will spend at least 1 round below 0 hp, which as both a player and a GM always make for the best encounters).
If you want an easy time for both you and your players I suggest a 15-point-buy or standard "4d6 drop lowest arrange as desired", they may not be too pleased by their stats but it makes your life a lot easier. If you're up for some more challenging GMing then give them what they want with the point-buy or weighted roles, but make sure you raise the average CR for the party by 1 and give all monsters max hit points, and go from there.
Having DM'd 3.0 and 3.5 for years and now GM'ing PF, IMHO PF is far less deadly at any level.
Some stuff to chew on, figured I would share would took me a few months to learn so you don't have to stumble over the same stuff I did.
hate to point it out
All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly enlarged by the spell. Melee weapons affected by this spell deal more damage (see Table: Tiny and Large Weapon Damage). Other magical properties are not affected by this spell. Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature's possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown and projectile weapons deal their normal damage. Magical properties of enlarged items are not increased by this spell.
What's your point? Yes, Enlarge Person has that limitation. Gravity Bow overcomes it and makes it possible to use projectiles at a larger size. Use Enlarge Person on the melee fighter and Gravity Bow on yourself.
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What's your point? Yes, Enlarge Person has that limitation. Gravity Bow overcomes it and makes it possible to use projectiles at a larger size. Use Enlarge Person on the melee fighter and Gravity Bow on yourself.
hate to point it out
All equipment worn or carried by a creature is similarly enlarged by the spell. Melee weapons affected by this spell deal more damage (see Table: Tiny and Large Weapon Damage). Other magical properties are not affected by this spell. Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature's possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown and projectile weapons deal their normal damage. Magical properties of enlarged items are not increased by this spell.
I think he/she was pointing out that you cannot 'double-up' enlarge person and gravity bow.
Which is one, fairly straightforward, interpretation of the post he responded to.
I hope I have cleared that up for you.
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You can double up, but to do so you need a porter carrying a quiver of large arrows. Cast enlarge. The porter hands you the quiver. The arrows are naturally large and suited to your bow, and will not shrink when fired. Gravity bow stacks on top of that.
I have been a DM for 3.5 for a few years, and I am new to Pathfinder. A problem that I saw in 3.5 with starting at 1st-level is that just about anything that's CR 1 could potentially kill any 1st-level player character with a max-damage hit or critical. My solution in 3.5 was to simply never start a campaign from 1st-level.
I am designing a campaign right now for this coming spring, but it is starting to look more and more like it would be too tough for a 1st-level party, even though most of the encounters are CR 1. What is the consensus among you guys here? Should I just make the PCs start at 2nd-level?
HP at 1st level = Max plus Constitution score
Example: Fighter with 16 CON gets 10+2+16=28
They won't die in one hit that way. Will probably take four high damage hits.
Second this.... been doing that for years. Also encourages good Con score right off the bat, like it should be.
I wouldn't shy away from the fragility of level 1 -- that's part of the fun of it.
But that being said, if you really want to, avoid putting in enemies with a greater than x2 crit multiplier and you're relatively safe.
I wouldn't shy away from the fragility of level 1 -- that's part of the fun of it.
But that being said, if you really want to, avoid putting in enemies with a greater than x2 crit multiplier and you're relatively safe.
+1. Avoid x3 and x4 crits. There's a reason Monster Manual orcs moved away from greataxes to falchions.
Two other pieces of advice:
1) Look for monsters with multiple attacks, as those will tend to drop a PC without killing him.
2) If you're designing your own monsters to put against 1st level PCs, make liberal use of the Young template.
Do you build your own adventures, or use published scenarios? If the latter, you shouldn't have too much difficulty, as adventures designed for 1st level characters generally don't have the lethality to outright kill a 1st level character.
If you'll be building your own scenarios, perhaps steal combat encounters from published 1st-level adventures. Master of the Fallen Fortress has a lot of really soft encounters designed with 1st level PCs in mind.
I've played with the same group for a while. We use:
2 action points.
Max HP at 1st lvl.
The group knows sometimes it's better to run and live to fight another day. If they hear about the Dragon North of the swamp and want to go there instead of something more appropriate to their experience then it may go poorly for the group.
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I have been a DM for 3.5 for a few years, and I am new to Pathfinder. A problem that I saw in 3.5 with starting at 1st-level is that just about anything that's CR 1 could potentially kill any 1st-level player character with a max-damage hit or critical. My solution in 3.5 was to simply never start a campaign from 1st-level.
I am designing a campaign right now for this coming spring, but it is starting to look more and more like it would be too tough for a 1st-level party, even though most of the encounters are CR 1. What is the consensus among you guys here? Should I just make the PCs start at 2nd-level?
Remember that in Pathfinder it is + your Con, not +10. So if you have at least 1 12 con even a wizard has 19 hit points before they are dead/dead.
I haven't had it be an issue yet, unless bad choices are made.
Even then...well...sometimes 1st levels die.
I am planning on running a campaign in the future & instead of starting at level 1 I will start at lev 2 but with 0 xp so they have to adventure the full amount of xp for both lev 1 & 2 before they advance to level 3 - this will make them more survivable & slightly better abilities
That's a great idea! Now I'm going to do that in my next campaign. I'm not too worried about things being survivable, but for most classes, that second level is where the fun really starts.
I am planning on running a campaign in the future & instead of starting at level 1 I will start at lev 2 but with 0 xp so they have to adventure the full amount of xp for both lev 1 & 2 before they advance to level 3 - this will make them more survivable & slightly better abilities
This seems fair. Although I like PC's starting from the very beginning. Lvl 1 is important to character development because of the challenges. That said, I've sometimes given PCs a free level in an NPC class usually warrior or expert, just to give them a few extra hp's and a starting boost. Otherwise, I recommend using creatures < CR1, more interaction or story awards, or throw in some skill challenges and non-lethal damage for failure.
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I'm not too worried about things being survivable, but for most classes, that second level is where the fun really starts.
exactly my reason - in a campaign my group started playing in (I am also a player in this) a few complained about starting from level 1 & wanted to start higher like lev 5 - I objected & another player also commented against this especially since we have my fiancee playing & this is her first campaign - she has played a few games before this
unfortunately the DM decided to go with the majority & we started at lev 5 - my fiancee is coping but I miss the rise from low level & I think it would have been better for her too
I have been a DM for 3.5 for a few years, and I am new to Pathfinder. A problem that I saw in 3.5 with starting at 1st-level is that just about anything that's CR 1 could potentially kill any 1st-level player character with a max-damage hit or critical. My solution in 3.5 was to simply never start a campaign from 1st-level.
I am designing a campaign right now for this coming spring, but it is starting to look more and more like it would be too tough for a 1st-level party, even though most of the encounters are CR 1. What is the consensus among you guys here? Should I just make the PCs start at 2nd-level?
Roll behind a screen. If you get a 20 followed by a 20 and max damage, just call it a crit and do enough damage to drop the character.
I just skimmed the posts in this thread but it seems to me everyone is focusing on various house rules geared towards increasing the pc's survivability.
Don't forget there are plenty of monsters you can use that are below CR 1
Focus more on the CR 1/2, CR 1/4 types at first level and your pcs will have an easier time and less risk of crit death.
Players start with Con score in HP + class roll. (example 1st level cleric with con 12... would get 12 + 1d8 hp at first level).
Like this system because it fast, easy, and can be done to both players and critters.
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Way back when, on the first time i GM in OD&D. Had this nice little dungeon of 1st level undead and zombies, which i stocked up in a pre-made adventure map of someone zoo. The Undead skeletons were an even match for the 1st level party. But up all the part healing was used up, tho in that one fight, and we ending the game for the day. Next time around, the undead were changed to undead chipmunks, undead Squirrels, undead beavers, undead snakes. There damage was lowered to 1d2 damage, with 1d4 hp each. Fun when the party can do a dungeon crawl with more than 1 fight per day.
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If you like the whole Mage with 6 hp getting hit by a 1d8 sword and going down in one hit. No the suggestion above is not for you.
If you like being hit by 1-3 attack, and then running for your life, while the Undead skeletons are chasing you out the dungeon. Then the suggestion listed above is for you.
I see fragile 1st level characters as an important feature, not a problem at all. Killing PCs, especially those that get in over their heads, is OK. It sets up an important lesson right away -- that although you'll be fair, you won't coddle them or give them invincible "plot armor." In turn, that means that their accomplishments are legitimately theirs, not a pre-ordained conclusion.
Adventuring is dangerous -- if it weren't, everyone would do it.
Precisely. I saw the thread title and asked myself (out loud, no less), "Why would you avoid killing PCs?"
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You really don't need to do that... Just use low CR opponents. Any self respecting character has at least 12 constitution and thus to outright kill a character whos still standing thats 12 damage in a single hit, and thats worst case scenario when they are stood on 0HP. That just doesn't happen much with low CR enemies, its rare enough that character death itself should be rare.
The only system where i've ever killed a 1st level PC (multiple PC's in fact) was 4E- note, death saving throws are nasty... Yes the chance to recover is greater than 3.5 (10%) but you only get three strikes...
Flashblade wrote, "I've long since taken a highly negative stance towards high ability scores on player characters..."
I agree 100%.
The best advice I can give for not "accidentally" killing a first level PC is to make help available. The easiest way to do this is to make the adventure happen in a very populated area.
Here is a quick idea:
The PCs are hired to stop some thugs from bootlegging. For political reasons, the local authorities can't do this themselves. The thugs aren't out to kill anyone (or die over some cheap product), but won't let some chumps muscle them without a fight. Most of them could be armed with clubs, daggers, knives, brass knuckles, or even fists or saps. They also have a bunch of mangy dogs that are always barking. These dogs are vicious, but will flee if reduced to half hp. You could also throw in one really mean dog (wolf stats) who is rabid, and may fight to the death if the situation dictates.
If any PCs go down, they could simply be dragged out into the street, where the thugs won't follow. You could even have constabulary waiting for the signal to move in and arrest everyone.
PS I find giving 2X normal average starting wealth allows players to equip their characters the way they want (usually better armor) and allows them more staying power without unbalancing the game.
I have been a DM for 3.5 for a few years, and I am new to Pathfinder. A problem that I saw in 3.5 with starting at 1st-level is that just about anything that's CR 1 could potentially kill any 1st-level player character with a max-damage hit or critical. My solution in 3.5 was to simply never start a campaign from 1st-level.
I am designing a campaign right now for this coming spring, but it is starting to look more and more like it would be too tough for a 1st-level party, even though most of the encounters are CR 1. What is the consensus among you guys here? Should I just make the PCs start at 2nd-level?
I've seen a lot of good advice above this post. I won't repeat it. One thing I didn't see, and I may have missed it, is to have them roll up a back up character for use in the unlikely event of a PC buying it. Plan for points in the game at which a new character could be logically inserted. Mortality for a PC at first level is a lesson for the player, if not the character :) Sometimes luck kills them, more often they did something that caused it. Don't avoid it (any more than you should embrace it). It keeps them thinking.
How do I avoid killing 1st-level PCs?
Dont.
Look Out! There's a learning curve ahead.
In our first Pathfinder campaign, which we completed earlier this year, my Paladin went to negative hit points twice. Once was at level 14, when he received a full round of attacks from a Great Gold Wyrm, and died instantly.
The other was a barman at level 1 with a greataxe.*
It is certainly tricky at level 1, as like the OP said, one lucky hit can fell even a tough first level PC. However, I think that's part of the fun of it. You should be flimsy at level 1, because you're just another green adventurer. If you die, you're one of the ones that never made it.
*After he dropped me to negative HP, he ran away and dropped his weapon. I was healed to 1 HP, and tracked him down. Being a Paladin, I handed him his greataxe back, he won initiative, missed me, then I dashed his brains out on the wall.