This is mostly a curiosity on my part but i am interested in at what point people consider common sense stops and metagaming starts?
For example in this the (hopefully :)) real world there are many old sayings and rhymes to teach us of common hazards some of which are truer than others. So how would you see this in a fantasy world setting would children or more pertinently training adventurers be taught similar stories and songs that warn them to burn a troll or club a skeleton?
From my point of view no sane parents/family wants their children to be an adventurer, so my guess is there is no stories, rhymes whatever about how to defeat a monster. On other hand there are rhymes about diseases, crop not growing, etc that are helpful in day to day common life as are there scary stories of bunch of monsters eating children that do not behave, listen to their parents or whatever that kid did wrong today.
This is mostly a curiosity on my part but i am interested in at what point people consider common sense stops and metagaming starts?
For example in this the (hopefully :)) real world there are many old sayings and rhymes to teach us of common hazards some of which are truer than others. So how would you see this in a fantasy world setting would children or more pertinently training adventurers be taught similar stories and songs that warn them to burn a troll or club a skeleton?
It really depends on the campaign world. If monsters and/or adventurers are common a troll's weaknesses may be easier to find out about. I don't think the average commoner knows how to deal with monsters, and I don't think a single monster will try to attack an entire village. Trolls are not really bright, but it should know not to openly take on an entire village. The way information is spread would also be a factor. Eberron has a printing press so information may flow more freely than in other campaign worlds. There was a time(in Europe) when the illiteracy rate was pretty high, so getting information across may not been too easy. Most fantasy systems are based of Medieval times to an extent.
What is common sense will depend on what monster has harassed a particular area also, so it may depend on the location.I just require knowledge checks for all of this stuff so I don't have to think about all of the factors of why a person may or may not automatically know something.
This is mostly a curiosity on my part but i am interested in at what point people consider common sense stops and metagaming starts?
For example in this the (hopefully :)) real world there are many old sayings and rhymes to teach us of common hazards some of which are truer than others. So how would you see this in a fantasy world setting would children or more pertinently training adventurers be taught similar stories and songs that warn them to burn a troll or club a skeleton?
I think that in a "default" fantasy settings, children (and people in general) would be aware of many strengths and weaknesses of the more common creatures.
Where it stops being old wisdoms and starts being metagaming is hard to define however.
Also, this kind of folkloric knowledge would likely be filled with just as much misconceptions, wrong assumptions and fabricated fiction; such as "trolls only burn under moonlight" or "skeletons can be harmed by a sword as long as its made of silver" etc, which is also difficult into a game without meeting some metagaming resistance...
'findel
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Some things I think can go under common sense.
For Skeletons: Maces and clubs are more useful than spears and arrows
For trolls: "To truly kill a troll, into the flames it must go." would be a common rhyme.
For PF Goblins: They love to sing.
Notice that all of them are true, but does not give the whole story.
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There was a neat vampire movie decades ago based on the premise that not only were vampires real, but there weren't any vampire legends in the movie world.Oh, just like almost every horror movie that isn't a comedy. I was watching the premier of the Walking Dead and the main character had no idea what a zombie was(and no mention of the Z-word at all). It's 2010; you don't need to explain what a zombie is.
in my campaign sometimes i allow knowledge local or others to identify common monster weaknesses but only if that monster ties into the characters backstory.
ex- i might allow some knowledge about griffins to a PC who is from a farming community or elven city but not to say an ex gladiator. also i might be just as likely to exaggerate or give false intel as stories are often just that. in example, you've heard stories in your youth that skeletons are the result of pure evilness with those who have ties to demons. They can eat your soul, are unharmed by man made weapons, and can only truly be put to rest by a priest.
if a player wants exact knowledge on monsters study them (ie put ranks in the knowledge)or make sure you have the company of somebody who can tell you such things.
From my point of view no sane parents/family wants their children to be an adventurer, so my guess is there is no stories, rhymes whatever about how to defeat a monster. On other hand there are rhymes about diseases, crop not growing, etc that are helpful in day to day common life as are there scary stories of bunch of monsters eating children that do not behave, listen to their parents or whatever that kid did wrong today.
I would disagree with this - not the bit about adventurers, but that there would be no rhymes. These are creatures that your average frontiersman (and in a pseudo medieval setting, 'frontier' = lives outside a city) would have to be prepared to defend against. As your average commoner has neither combat power nor magic on his side, knowledge is likely all he's got.
In some games I introduced Knowledge (folklore) as an indicator of the store of wisdom and minor magic average people would have.
I would use it as a double bladed sword.
As it's very difficult for players to simply forget what they know, allow them to use it, but from time to time give false information.
Old sayings and rhymes have one major issue, they aren't very accurate, let's take one of the best known myth, the vampire.
Their weaknesses range from Ail, Silver, sunlight, flowing water, invitation to homes, only virgine blood to such common thinks like even salt.
So a clever DM take use of it and watch the questioned faces of his players if they throw salt at the vampire and the vampire simply answered "What???" and attacks.
Also I would go for the charactetr background, e.g. a ex-soldier from a country which is constantly raided by trolls, will know how to kill them in the end.
I prefer Meta-gaming.
Player buy the Monster Manuals to read out of fun anyway, and lets face it. The Medusa, Vampires, Werewolves, Trolls, etc, are know for their outlandish strength's and weakness without even looking at a Monster Manual.
New Player who never played before, well 30 minute game halt. Stick the Monster Manual in his hands and let him flip throw it for a while. Encourage the other players to help him learn some of the most common critters like Goblins, Orc's, kobolds, Dwarfs, Elves, etc.
PC = Live in a Fantasy world. PC are also Adventures, who listen, talk, and learn about monsters as a way of life.
BUT = The players are not allowed to look at Monster Manuals during the game. If they want to know something during the game, it is a skill check.
What they can remember without a skill check is = Common Since, common knowledge, what they mistakenly believe (they do remember wrong sometimes).
Also= Some monster are reskined, have slightly different powers than listed in MM, or just not what they appear (disguise self, alter self, illusion spells anyone).
(Prefer games that are fun, fast, and easy to play. Not bogged down in rules, regulations, and since-less arguments.)
From my point of view no sane parents/family wants their children to be an adventurer, so my guess is there is no stories, rhymes whatever about how to defeat a monster. On other hand there are rhymes about diseases, crop not growing, etc that are helpful in day to day common life as are there scary stories of bunch of monsters eating children that do not behave, listen to their parents or whatever that kid did wrong today.I would disagree with this - not the bit about adventurers, but that there would be no rhymes. These are creatures that your average frontiersman (and in a pseudo medieval setting, 'frontier' = lives outside a city) would have to be prepared to defend against. As your average commoner has neither combat power nor magic on his side, knowledge is likely all he's got.
In some games I introduced Knowledge (folklore) as an indicator of the store of wisdom and minor magic average people would have.
I really like the idea of Knowledge (Folklore) this sounds like a great skill to cover a wide variety of gaps while promoting fun roleplaying as well. I would probably let it be used to determine weaknesses as the other knowledge skills with a higher DC and modifiers based on the rarity of the creature and/or attack type needed. It could also be used to feed information of potential adventuring spots and such things although i would generally only use this in absence of a bard or if my group all wanted it in i would allow bards to add their level to any check
I really like the idea of Knowledge (Folklore) this sounds like a great skill to cover a wide variety of gaps while promoting fun roleplaying as well. I would probably let it be used to determine weaknesses as the other knowledge skills with a higher DC and modifiers based on the rarity of the creature and/or attack type needed. It could also be used to feed information of potential adventuring spots and such things although i would generally only use this in absence of a bard or if my group all wanted it in i would allow bards to add their level to any check
Same here... in a past campaign (2nd ED), I used to make use of superstitions. Break a mirror, 7 years bad luck... that type of stuff. It was never a guaranteed type of thing, came down to a percentage check.
I actually had one character toss a coin in a well and make a wish. He was a halfling who wanted to be able to move as fast as the taller members in the group. That 1% chance popped up and the "man of the Well" rose up and pulled a coin from his body. As long as he had that coin on his body he could move faster... however, he accidentally spent it. Poor little fellow. :o(
This is mostly a curiosity on my part but i am interested in at what point people consider common sense stops and metagaming starts?
For example in this the (hopefully :)) real world there are many old sayings and rhymes to teach us of common hazards some of which are truer than others. So how would you see this in a fantasy world setting would children or more pertinently training adventurers be taught similar stories and songs that warn them to burn a troll or club a skeleton?
I think this is valid. In our world, myths are usually based on something to begin with, though with the constant retelling the point is often obscured or twisted to a point that it becomes unrecognizable. But in a world where these dangers are real, people would teach them to their children.
The simplest way to reflect this would be to allow Knowledge checks untrained.
Knowledge (Folklore) is covered under the Knowledge Skill.
"Untrained: You cannot make an untrained Knowledge check with a DC higher than 10..." Which means, for DCs of 10 or less you CAN roll untrained.
"For common monsters, such as goblins, the DC of this check equals 5 + the monster's CR." DC 5 or 6.
Untrained if will come down to a half-decent role and INT bonus. This mechanic would cover just about anything.
In one of my campaigns, my Half-Orc Barbarian 5/Ranger 2... knew there was a Gelatinous Cube down the hall. He's never encountered one before... he charged!
And, he definitely doesn't know that it it tries to engulf you, you can choose the AoO (and lose your Reflex Save) or forego the AoO and get one.
Metagaming isn't an insurmountable issue, now if you have a problem Player... that's another story.
And, do the NPCs and monsters know character Class abilities and limitations, restrictions? You can metagame as a DM, example: An Ettin took a 5-Foot Step and gulped a healing potion to avoid an AoO. Should an Ettin know about AoOs?
But, even if he did... The threatening character was INVISIBLE!
Ciao!
I really like the idea of Knowledge (Folklore) this sounds like a great skill to cover a wide variety of gaps while promoting fun roleplaying as well. I would probably let it be used to determine weaknesses as the other knowledge skills with a higher DC and modifiers based on the rarity of the creature and/or attack type needed. It could also be used to feed information of potential adventuring spots and such things although i would generally only use this in absence of a bard or if my group all wanted it in i would allow bards to add their level to any checkFrom my point of view no sane parents/family wants their children to be an adventurer, so my guess is there is no stories, rhymes whatever about how to defeat a monster. On other hand there are rhymes about diseases, crop not growing, etc that are helpful in day to day common life as are there scary stories of bunch of monsters eating children that do not behave, listen to their parents or whatever that kid did wrong today.I would disagree with this - not the bit about adventurers, but that there would be no rhymes. These are creatures that your average frontiersman (and in a pseudo medieval setting, 'frontier' = lives outside a city) would have to be prepared to defend against. As your average commoner has neither combat power nor magic on his side, knowledge is likely all he's got.
In some games I introduced Knowledge (folklore) as an indicator of the store of wisdom and minor magic average people would have.
I used it the way Knowledge (local) is used, covering a wide variety of things specific to the culture rather than the location. On occasions it had some very obscure factoids in it, in the same way Knowledge (local) does.