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Knee Jerk Reaction: KILL HIM! He's a Douche.
Better Answer: Why not have an open, adult conversation with your players prior to a session. Share your concerns with them. The task of GM is not an easy one. You give a great deal of yourself to make sure everyone has a good time. A player like this doesn't respect the efforts you make. Beyond that, eject him from your game.
Sounds like Dude's got some growing up to do?
The first time I dealt with cheating, it was a real 10 year old.
He was always looking over the DM screen. I put out a sheet with some ordinary orcs on it for him to see. It was actually some Anti-Mages. Orcs with a malady that causes them to suck up spells and eat magic items. Once they realize you can't be counted on to be a chump, they stop cheating.
I think there are three kinds of cheaters:
#1 - the occasional fudge that gets out of hand. This guy has had a few too many runs of bad luck, and so he now 'fudges' his dice a lot. He probably doesn't realise he now does it as often as he does, and if he's called on it, he'll be ashamed of himself and stop.
#2 - it doesn't matter, it's just a game. This cheater is just immature, and figures that if he can get away with it, why not? He will likely deny it if he's challenged, but will stop it anyway when he realises he cannot get away with it and grows up a bit - usually. This cheater can be redeemed, but it's not a given that he will ever get that cheating spoils other people's game. If they aren't checked, though, they can grow into #3.
#3 - it's all about winning. This cheater sees it as a contest between them and ... well, everyone. They have to win, period, that's the point of the game (in their minds). They will always deny cheating, demand proof, and generally make mayhem if challenged. This is because the accusation of cheating is just another contest they have to win. You'd all be cheating too if you thought you could get away with it, you are just chumps because you can't in their minds. There's not a lot you can do with this kind of cheater except boot them out and spread the word as wide as you can about them.
I think Adding A community Rolling area is best, have all players roll in A area close to you and always when your looking. does not point fingers and it fixes the issue
Three, in fact. Each has crashed other people's games, ruined sessions, etc. None are worth a spit, but act as 'psychic vampires', to use a friend's term.As you describe them, cheating was the least of these players' affronts. None of them sound salvageable. If they were the most honest players in the group, they still deserved a boot to the head... and a stick for ye olde Fishy.
Feeding them to Mr. Fishy might get him mad at me, so a stick it must be.
Being someone's "enabler" isn't doing them any favors. By ignoring his cheating, you are effectively telling him "it's ok" on multiple levels (it's ok if you don't get caught, it's ok if you've got a disorder, it's ok as long as you're cheating your friends, etc).
This is the same thing that encourages tantrums. If you submit a child's tantrum every time, you will not avoid tantrums, you will cause more tantrums (because they learn that it gets results).
If you've got a cheater, tell them: "Stop cheating, or stop playing. Your choice."
If they throw a tantrum, then respond: "Act your age; or are you using a roundabout way of saying you'll take the second choice?"
I personally have a strict no-cheaters policy in my games. I don't cheat as a GM (and I don't fudge dice, give bonus Hp, and so forth; not even to save your butt). I'll sometimes use a screen or something for quick references (and having a cool piece of art on the PC side is nice), but most of the time I'll be rolling on the table in the open ('cause many times I don't have a screen handy), or using my arm to make secret checks like Perception and the like. My players know I don't cheat, ever.
We had a player in our group that said "If a player cast baleful polymorph on a dragon and he failed, I'd fudge it. It's a dragon, and that shouldn't fly." This player also is the one guy no one ever wants to GM, and he's the most disruptive player when he's not GMing.
But the long and short of it is this.
If you don't be his friend and give it to him strait, then I'm not sure you're his friend. If you don't lay down the law then you are enabling him to act this way. We learn through positive and negative reinforcement, and as long as your not putting your foot down about it, you are providing positive reinforcement for his most negative traits; and in doing so, you are hurting him, yourself, and your group, in the short term and in the long run.
Being someone's "enabler" isn't doing them any favors. By ignoring his cheating, you are effectively telling him "it's ok" on multiple levels (it's ok if you don't get caught, it's ok if you've got a disorder, it's ok as long as you're cheating your friends, etc).
This is the same thing that encourages tantrums. If you submit a child's tantrum every time, you will not avoid tantrums, you will cause more tantrums (because they learn that it gets results).
If you've got a cheater, tell them: "Stop cheating, or stop playing. Your choice."
If they throw a tantrum, then respond: "Act your age; or are you using a roundabout way of saying you'll take the second choice?"
I personally have a strict no-cheaters policy in my games. I don't cheat as a GM (and I don't fudge dice, give bonus Hp, and so forth; not even to save your butt). I'll sometimes use a screen or something for quick references (and having a cool piece of art on the PC side is nice), but most of the time I'll be rolling on the table in the open ('cause many times I don't have a screen handy), or using my arm to make secret checks like Perception and the like. My players know I don't cheat, ever.
We had a player in our group that said "If a player cast baleful polymorph on a dragon and he failed, I'd fudge it. It's a dragon, and that shouldn't fly." This player also is the one guy no one ever wants to GM, and he's the most disruptive player when he's not GMing.
But the long and short of it is this.
If you don't be his friend and give it to him strait, then I'm not sure you're his friend. If you don't lay down the law then you are enabling him to act this way. We learn through positive and negative reinforcement, and as long as your not putting your foot down about it, you are providing positive reinforcement for his most negative traits; and in doing so, you are hurting him, yourself, and your group, in the short term and in the long run.
Bottom line ... this is QFT at the end of the day. Whatever you do, you have to do something if he is your friend, and you are under no obligation NOT to do something about it if he isn't.
A lot of advice here would apply if the guy can really control his lying and cheating, but can he is the question I have. If he really can't, then laying down the law in a confrontation won't help. You'd need a solution that make lying about the die roll impossible.
A lot of advice here would apply if the guy can really control his lying and cheating, but can he is the question I have. If he really can't, then laying down the law in a confrontation won't help. You'd need a solution that make lying about the die roll impossible.
I won't pretend to be an expert, but everything I've mentioned here also applies to drug abuse, bi-polar disorder, and so forth (I have family with all these problems). I've had to talk people down after they've tried to OD on pills and then go for a car-drive because they were upset. "Can't help it" only goes just so far.
I can't help the fact I have an overwhelming fear of heights for no apparent reason (despite logically knowing I'm in no danger, I lock up, become jittery, my heart races, and I get clingy to the most stable objects about), but I know I have a problem with this irrational fear and I try to overcome it (I'll be helping my father put a new roof on our house this week).
But the fact of the matter is, if he's a compulsive liar, then he probably knows. However, that doesn't make lying and cheating "ok". He could get some help, or try to get some help, and if he does have a problem and knows it, then he has no right to get offended for trying to adapt to his problem. Let's look at it with a more extreme example, if your husband or wife has a disorder that makes them prone to violence, you don't let them beat you. You either require they get help or you leave - and if they try to hurt you for leaving, you press charges and force them to get help.
Fortunately, this is a much lighter scenario, but it doesn't change that enabling your friend to lie and cheat does him no more good than telling him that you need to either work out a way to make him stop being a liar and a cheat, or you work out a way so he can't do it. If he really does have a problem, then he'll be thankful or at least understanding. My father is patient with me (he knows I have an unnaturally terrible reaction to heights) so he takes the time to make me feel more secure by holding the ladder, and trying to make working at high places more comfortable. I don't get pissed at him because he's acknowledging that I have a problem and trying to help me work around it.
But the fact of the matter is, if he's a compulsive liar, then he probably knows. However, that doesn't make lying and cheating "ok".
This is the point. If he cannot control it, you are obligated to place somebody next top him to make sure it doesn't mess up the game. If he knows he cannot control it and he wants to do something about it, he will appreciate the checks and balances. The problem comes when he cannot control it and he does not want to. Then you have a problem, and then he has to go.
Just work it into the storyline and there are lots of spells and events you can concoct that have no dice rolls for saves or whatnot applied; shift the game less about stats and rolls and more about story and roleplaying, and that will cure the problem. Add to that; there are times you dont want to notice things; so making all rolls can really go against you; ie; you see the evil demon summoning; you notice the guy is a devil not a person; stuff like that can do bad things to you; give you evil points; pick up wierd auras; bring you strange visitors; just turn it into story. Also; you can shift values so 1 is 20 and 20 is one; that sort of thing. You can also introduce hard side rolls; ie; these are circumstance rolls where Fate plays a part; hence two opposing rollers are fairly even; but some sort of Fate steps in; so hard side roll; roll percentile; dont show your roll; he rolls against you and has to make the hard side; so if you roll a 34; he has to roll under a 34; if you roll a 89; he has to roll over an 89; some rolls are easy; some hard; most hard; hence they roll the hard side so your player wont know whether to roll high or low and no stat modifies.
Game is about story and fun; so let him win a few rolls even if he cheats; but you can arrange setbacks in the story enough to not let him take advantage of the other players; which are really the ones being cheated.
We had a player like this a long time ago. Compulsive liar, and was extremely shifty when it came to gaming. He would only roll his die on his "lucky clipboard", which happen to be off the table laying on a chair next to him, only he could see. He'd roll, than pick up it real quick and proclaim it's result. Always saved by just enough...
Because of him, we roll out in the open, and the DM has to see the die or it doesn't count. This is the easiest way to do it; no need for confrontation, no need to call someone out. Just make a rule that the DM HAS to see the die or it doesn't count. And, you can't touch the die once it's rolled, as the OP mentioned he puts his hand around it so it doesn't roll away. That right there is cheating; anyone can just bump the die if it happens to roll low.
It's one thing to try curtailing cheating, but if I play a game, I play it myself. That means I'll roll my checks and saves and attacks myself.
There's always the hidden roll exception, of course, but other than that I want the fate of my character resting in my hand.
I'm with you on that.
I just wouldn't feel right not rolling the dice myself, and also if it all goes badly and I get splatted then I am much more inclined to suck it up when it's a conseqence of my cruddy roll :)
I agree as well. Might sound silly, but it's one of the big reasons I stuck with 3.5/PF. Doesn't work that way in Star Wars Saga Edition, unfortunately, but that system's positive aspects make up for it.
Switch to a system where success is sometimes the worse possible outcome. Like Call of Cthulhu
Keeper - Roll Mythos Knowledge checks for this 12 foot tall tentacled horror lurching at you
Player 1 - 34, blew it (wipes sweat from brow)
Player 2 - 03 - Woohoo! I made it! What is this thing> how do we kill it?
Keeper - Ok Player 1, you have no idea what this monstrosity is but lose 3 SAN for the horrify sight of it. Player 2 you know that this is a very young Cthonian, and that given that it is so young (only 12 feet tall and all) this probably means there are more nearby - you lose 25 SAN and can increase your Mythos knowledge score by 1! yay!
We had a cheater at the table. Our solution was giant dice.
Wouldn't let him play if he didn't roll the huge clonkers. Worked like a charm.
I don't cheat and I'm ordering those suckers for myself.
If he is cheating then suck it up and have another player or two even hawk his dice.
believe it or not I ask players to look at my dice so I can tell my DM the bad news.
I rolled 9d6 for an orb of force and 7 of them were 6's the other two were a 3 and a 5 but still if I hadn't asked for my fellow players to verify my rolls then the DM would have been right to assume those kinds of numbers were more than a little odd.
Bottom line at least at the table I play at is If you don't trust your player than he shouldn't be at your table. That being said yes I have made math mistakes and yes my dice are hard to read but I like their color and have had them for decades.
Here is what you do:
Give everyone in your group a sheet of paper. Have them make 200 D20 rolls and right them down in order. Put there character names at the top of the sheet and use those rolls, in order, for all attack rolls and saves. Whenever they need to make an attack or save, ask them for the appropriate bonus that they have: Fort bonus, Attack bonus, etc.
Tell them that your trying an experiment to see if you can speed up play with prerolls for d20 results.
Then simply mark off the rolls are you go through them for each player.
If your proposed 'cheater' was cheating then it should show up rather quickly. If he still makes all the rolls then it could mean he simply built his character very, very well.
Another variant on this is have everyone roll as above and after they have all rolled then switch the names on the sheets to that of the player on their left. That way if the 'cheater' has fudged his rolls he still will only get actual rolls. If the person to his left suddenly starts having luck heaven then you know your 'cheater' has a serious problem or is using a loaded or flawed die.
Even the best of cheaters are not going to be able to roll an entire sheet of 200 15+ rolls and exepct to get away with it. And if they do it is pretty blatant what they are trying to get away with and you will know.
Perhaps speak to your other players about this ahead of time to let them know your going to try this to see if he gets the message without blatantly embarrasing him in public. If your cheater has a fit when you propose this you will then have the other players on your side to point out that they are all doing it as well and they see no problem with it. Faced with a unified social situation he can either cave or leave.
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I haven't read everything here, and there seems to be a good deal, but I must admit I have been on both ends of this problem.
That is right, I have cheated. As sad as this is to admit, there have been games in the past where about a third of my low rolls were reported incorrectly.
And then there have been times where I realized a player was cheating, and I actually caught him doing it. Not a good feeling.
Here is what I suggest. Get a dice tower, something with a bin that catches the dice so they don't "roll all over the place" and make it mandatory that everyone rolls in it, even you (for rolls that you feel comfortable letting the players see.) Tell them you just want to try something new, and that you want to try out the new shiny tower.
If the cheater is against it, then let the group vote on it. If you are enthusiastic about it, chances are the players will be too. If you feel like you will be voted down, then don't go for a vote, just insist that you want to try it out for a session, and in the following session talk up how much fun you had with it and insist they keep trying it.
Now, if the cheater makes a stink, or keeps up with his bad behaviors, pull him aside and outside of the other player's hearing. Talk to him in a kind, calm tone, and let him know the deal.
Personaly, this is what I would say,
"Hey, (name) I really like you, you are fun to play with, and we are good friends but I need to be straight with you. Don't be offended by this, but I really feel like the dice results you give me are too good. I really want to trust you, and I am still giving you the benefit of the doubt, and so I would really like for you let me or the other players see your rolls before you move your dice. You are an awesome roleplayer, and I know you like to succeed, but I have to tell you, if you keep this up the game wont be fun for the other players. Please, as my friend, can you prove to us how lucky you really are by rolling in the open?"
Notice, I never really said he had or was a problem. In a subtle way, you suggest that the problem is somewhere else. Also, smile and use friendly, low and calm tones.
If he starts to defend himself, or get angry with you, keep your cool and just let talk. Listen, and keep listening, until he is done. Tell him you understand, repeat something he said in your own words, and then repeat that you would feel more comfortable if he rolled in the open. Even compromise by saying you would roll in the open, have all the other players roll in the open, or mention the use of the tower again. Keep being calm, and don't give in.
Heaven forbid, but if he gets angry enough to yell or try to fight, then let him know you are still his friend, but you would like it if he took a break from playing until he had a cooler head and respected you wishes as a GM. If he threatens to no longer be your friend, I am sorry but you really don't need him as one.
I had one problem player that I had to keep pulling aside. One day, when he felt things were unfair, he yelled at me and started to storm off. Another player made the mistake of giving a rude remark about him and the problem player heard it. In a flash he jumped on me and started to beat me up. I took the beating and waited for him to chill out. When he realized I wasn't going to fight back he stopped and apologized, and has never played with me again. His problems were not withe me however, and there were deeper issues he needed to deal with, I was just a spark to the powder keg. We are still friends though.
My point? Your player may be facing a similar situation. He may be having issues outside of the game he needs to deal with. If he does, then skip right to asking him to take a break. It will save you trouble in the long run.
I once had a player and friend who had unbelievably good rolls. He was a really great guy and I had trouble believing that he could be cheating. We talked about it and he said he was not cheating.
I had him roll in front of me and it continued.
I had him change dice and it continued.
I blindfolded him and had him roll backwards and it continued.
I busted out a graphing calculator and had him use the random number generator to roll. The first roll was a 20 and it continued.
I used a computer random number generator and it continued.
We did several hundred rolls and he was a few standard deviations above average.
Now, I'm a scientific-minded fellow, but he makes me believe (on some level) in luck. Now, it's not like every roll was 15 to 20, but his average roll came out to be something like 13 or 14. That's more than enough to seriously tilt the odds in his favor in any game.
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Though I would never do it in an actual game, it is possible, with a certain method of rolling dice to make any dice turn up on the desired numbers. Which means a cheater can roll 20s nonstop on real dice, if they so choose.
Just throwing that out there.
Your magic now applies to the real world?
Seriously, why am I not surprised you would be "throwing that out there."
I would offer three suggestions:
1) Let him cheat. It's his gaming experience and he's ruining it for himself. Just offer him less experience rewards and next to no "in game" rewards.
2)Cheat Back!!! You're the DM, if you suspect that he has just "flubbed" his roll then flub it back at him.
If he tries to say something, reply "Oh.. you think I'm cheating?" and look him dead in the eye lol.
3) Sit Next to him every game session. Ask your other players in private to either wait until he sits first and then sit right next to him. You might even asign seats, play at a smaller table, or .... just punchi him in the face.
[quote=CoDzilla: ...it is possible, with a certain method of rolling dice to make any dice turn up on the desired numbers.
I saw someone do this with a d6. In a 40K game his heavy weapons never missed and his important models never failed a save. Always with a '6' on the die, too.
If I were to play him again, I would insist on a dice cup. It's the only way to be fair.
GNOME