See ... I'm not even entirely convinced that the fast movement even belongs in the first place. It's weird.
Why, for instance, can they end up out-sprinting a freakin' horse? I mean ... what "martial" techniques allude to this kind of capability? I've seen Shao-lin demonstrations (seemingly an inspiration for the class), and nothing comes close to THAT kind of movement out of the blue. Is Kung Fu the TV series somehow informing this? Because to *me* most of the times that took place there was plenty of places for the main character to have simply hidden behind to drop out of notice for a few - nothing major-like, you know? I mean ... they're clearly NOT like The Flash of DC fame ... so why are they sprinting like him?
Admittedly, it's there as a part of the class, and w/out sacrificing any sacred cows, I guess we should leave it alone. On that front, some sort of charging/pouncing ability would certainly be nice and it would *also* more firmly give the class something that is pretty much *their* thing compared to the other classes (by 3.x designs anyway).
I'm still a bit curious about the perceived drawbacks and how PF specifically addresses them.
Right there, we have the drawback of a class ability that synergizes with NOTHING else in the class at all. Entering HR (house rule) territory, we have the idea of some sort of charge/pounce ability to let them take advantage of a class feature.
There's still the MAD issue, and PF really didn't do ANYTHING to help it. In fact, by pointedly NOT including things like the 3.5 feat of Intuitive Strike, they make it just worse. I will note that the Guided quality for weapons is an interesting feature, BUT it's not included in the core, or in the APG either - it's in an adventure path only, so that's not a whole HELL of a lot of help for anyone that doesn't pick that path up, or who doesn't read these threads for help. APG did introduce/change the brass knuckles around ... but it's in a supplemental book, and frankly sort of anti-climatic when the class is all about becoming a human weapon (ie: being weapon-less).
Maybe a better approach would be to make 'em equivalent to +X weapons at certain points in the progression? I mean, since PF *did* bring back the idea of high +'s being enough to punch through nearly any DR, why not just change the monk's fist/feet/body into a +1,2,3,4, etc weapon at certain points in his/her career? I mean, it can't hurt anything, and will go even further than the currently lame DR bypasses they are granted. IF, however, you make 'em automatically "magic" in terms of the +'s, then that actually has mechanical value in both combat effectiveness, AND DR implications, etc.
This would also take care of the "natural armor amulet" issues, since, if they're getting "magic fists" for free as they progress anyway, then they can actually use the amulet to boost AC and at least try to "keep pace" for the most part.
Maneuver Training is ... just odd. Once more a sort of 1/2 step between the bridge of "I'm not really a full fighting class" and "I can hang and bang w/the best of 'em!" Either they *should* be a full bab class, or should not be. Making this an OPTIONAL bonus feat is totally cool - making it part and parcel of the class progression ... weird. Still - compared to 3.x, this is certainly an upgrade in my book. PF is clearly *trying* to help ... but it just doesn't go far enough.
I can throw up some more later ... just some thoughts for now.
Well you also have to remember that after 6th level you are entering superhero territory, where fighters can bench press more than any natural human in history, or fall from ridiculous heights, or a host of other superhuman feats, by virtue of their crazy stats. It's just the nature of d20 games. At some point your skill roll modifiers surpass realism. At least that's what I point to when people mention monks running faster than horses.
They can move fast because they are drawing on the Wuxia aspect of martial arts, where monks can move at superhuman speeds, balance on twigs, run across lily pads, etc. They are 'supermen', with no weapons...hard to hit, hitting hard, faster, tough to stop.
Mechanically, not so great, but in comparison to normal people, something extraordinary. Just remember that Wuxia monks are superpeople going up against highly trained normal people, and you have an idea of what is happening.
==Aelryinth
Let's not get lost in the "super" part of the criticism.
It's a point against even "in-genre" from the source at something that just doesn't even really fit.
I've no bones against "super-human" modifiers in higher levels - far from it.
BUT, when everyone else, EVEN UNDER MAGIC is more or less "normal" then you have monks that randomly *are* WAY super-human in a way that NOTHING else in the game mimics ... it's weird.
So, to reiterate, my point in not about "super-human" as a potential to be reached in the game frameworks anyway, it's a point about when SUPER-human suddenly enters into play in a way that stands out from pretty much all other classes (*maybe* excepting full-casters ... *maybe*).
Even in Crouching Tiger, or Hero, and the like, when the Wuxia pops out, it's still "reasonable" relatively speaking. They are NOT moving outrageous fast as the Monk's score seems to indicate. They are "flurry" fast - easily seen and exemplified. But when the characters are jumping, and running on tree tops by barely touching them ... and they're fully moving at "normal" speeds, then this falls apart.
To equate it to the monk is to suddenly introduce the "Speed Force" in a clearly non-supers themed game basically. It's weird - and NOT supported by the source material - this is where I'm coming from on that.
In a genuine 4-color Supers game, I wouldn't even register the monks speed progression on my radar at all - it's fully "in genre" in a way that crazy-speed w/feet running in Wuxia flicks is fully NOT "in genre" or expected.
Big difference there - and I fully understand the "but high level = super" thing. The difference is I look at it and say it's not genre-appropriate in any form I'm familiar with (not even Anime really does that when it's "wuxia" flavored - unless that is *pointedly* some character's schtick).
It's not like I look at a Monk and think, "Ah yes!! Finally! I can get my Dragon Ball Fix!!!! Goku, here I come!!!!" Which seems to be the *only* place I can easily think of where martial arts is equated to THAT kind of rapid movement in pure speed/motion rather than speed/rate of attacks, etc.
To *me* the crazy movement reads more Dragonball and less Wuxia entirely. Wuxia just doesn't support THAT kind of speed is what I'm getting at.
Let's not get lost in the "super" part of the criticism.
It's a point against even "in-genre" from the source at something that just doesn't even really fit.
I've no bones against "super-human" modifiers in higher levels - far from it.
BUT, when everyone else, EVEN UNDER MAGIC is more or less "normal" then you have monks that randomly *are* WAY super-human in a way that NOTHING else in the game mimics ... it's weird.
So, to reiterate, my point in not about "super-human" as a potential to be reached in the game frameworks anyway, it's a point about when SUPER-human suddenly enters into play in a way that stands out from pretty much all other classes (*maybe* excepting full-casters ... *maybe*).
Even in Crouching Tiger, or Hero, and the like, when the Wuxia pops out, it's still "reasonable" relatively speaking. They are NOT moving outrageous fast as the Monk's score seems to indicate. They are "flurry" fast - easily seen and exemplified. But when the characters are jumping, and running on tree tops by barely touching them ... and they're fully moving at "normal" speeds, then this falls apart.
To equate it to the monk is to suddenly introduce the "Speed Force" in a clearly non-supers themed game basically. It's weird - and NOT supported by the source material - this is where I'm coming from on that.
In a genuine 4-color Supers game, I wouldn't even register the monks speed progression on my radar at all - it's fully "in genre" in a way that crazy-speed w/feet running in Wuxia flicks is fully NOT "in genre" or expected.
Big difference there - and I fully understand the "but high level = super" thing. The difference is I look at it and say it's not genre-appropriate in any form I'm familiar with (not even Anime really does that when it's "wuxia" flavored - unless that is *pointedly* some character's schtick).
It's not like I look at a Monk and think, "Ah yes!! Finally! I can get my Dragon Ball Fix!!!! Goku, here I come!!!!" Which seems to be the *only* place I can easily think of...
Are monks are not even that good at fast movement until later levels. A travel domain cleric is faster at low levels. you could dip barbarian to get ludicrous speed so traveling at ludicrous speeds is not limited to monks. Inquisitor of travel domain deity can also get the 10 foot bonus speed. Also fast movement is not that useful overland unless you plan on leaving the party behind. Monks are not really good at moving fast until there bonus gets much higher.
Mind you, they don't as fast as horse until level 9, and run faster than a horse until level 12, which is pretty up there.
Although I do agree it seems a little out of place at high levels. However its been a part of the game for 10 years.
I have been thinking about whether it really would be better for them to have a full BAB/d10 HD. My major concern, though, is how they stack up against fighters at that point. Fighters get some nice bonuses to the use of their equipment, which is in keeping with the equipment/no-equipment divide of the fighter and monk. But monks do get a lot of other stuff and I am not sure that with all the other stuff, they really equate, pound for pound, feature for feature.
There is also the use of the limitations to bring flavor to the class. If the monk only gets a full BAB under certain conditions, then those conditions define his fighting style. If the limitations are too arbitrarily confining, though, they just become an impediment to reasonable character builds.
Then there is also the divide between attacks and combat maneuvers, which exacerbates the MAD problems. You need two feats to swap Dex for Str for the purposes of both attacks and combat maneuvers.
In regards to allowing unarmed damage to work with all other monk weapons, I think that this is pretty reasonable. Its part of the monk's extra damage mechanic (other than straight TWF). Its restricted by needing weapons to bypass DR and gain enhancement bonuses.
However, if the monk is able to use monk weapons with his improved damage, then weapons will always be superior to the amulet in terms of ease of acquisition. Its more likely that the weapons will find themselves into a treasure horde, certainly if the DM is randomly generating it.
Perhaps the solution is rather to let unarmed damage remain more superior to weapons as the monk gets into the upper levels. What if the monk could ignore 1/2 his level in DR/Hardness. Or maybe 1/2 level +wisdom mod, giving wisdom more value against strength (I kind of feel like wisdom is a little undervalued for monks compared to strength). This would work against ANY DR. You still might want weapons for their two hit bonuses or their special properties, but they would be less needed vs DR as they currently are.
In regards to allowing unarmed damage to work with all other monk weapons, I think that this is pretty reasonable. Its part of the monk's extra damage mechanic (other than straight TWF). Its restricted by needing weapons to bypass DR and gain enhancement bonuses.
However, if the monk is able to use monk weapons with his improved damage, then weapons will always be superior to the amulet in terms of ease of acquisition. Its more likely that the weapons will find themselves into a treasure horde, certainly if the DM is randomly generating it.
Perhaps the solution is rather to let unarmed damage remain more superior to weapons as the monk gets into the upper levels. What if the monk could ignore 1/2 his level in DR/Hardness. Or maybe 1/2 level +wisdom mod, giving wisdom more value against strength (I kind of feel like wisdom is a little undervalued for monks compared to strength). This would work against ANY DR. You still might want weapons for their two hit bonuses or their special properties, but they would be less needed vs DR as they currently are.
One thing I did was allow the monk to use wisdom to replace strength for the purposes of attacks and damage, when using monk weapons, and for CMB/CMD checks.
I am still finding I need flurry of blows since I don't allow 1.5 wisdom modifier damage on two handed weapons.The issue of the weapons being better than the unarmed damage is also an issue. The only way I know to get around it is to use the cestus or brass knuckles.
This thread is off topic. No one is hating the monk...Where's the hate.
Mr. Fishy would like to put this thread back on track...
Flower smelling hippy! Buy some pants!
Your welcome.
To cross-post from EN World, one of my issues with the monk throughout D&D (though they fixed it in 4e) is that he doesn't play differently. A monk in 3.5 charges the enemy and full attacks, or he uses spring attack to be useless. A monk in Pathfinder charges and full attacks, or he moves around and uses manuevers.
Just like a fighter.
Just like a ranger.
Just like a paladin.
Just like a barbarian.
Only that's not true, the paladin and barbarian actually have more options then the "martial artist" class.
How depressing is it that you make a class literally designed around emulating mythical martial arts and it's thousands of different styles, and it plays no differently from a fighter who just punches things?
I suppose this is why I like swordsages as the "replacement" monk so much. They have different maneuvers and different stances and different styles of fighting. You know...like an actual "martial artist."
This thread is off topic. No one is hating the monk...Where's the hate.
Mr. Fishy would like to put this thread back on track...
Flower smelling hippy! Buy some pants!
Your welcome.
Hippie... I think you are mixin up the monk and druid Mr. Fishy.
To cross-post from EN World, one of my issues with the monk throughout D&D (though they fixed it in 4e) is that he doesn't play differently. A monk in 3.5 charges the enemy and full attacks, or he uses spring attack to be useless. A monk in Pathfinder charges and full attacks, or he moves around and uses manuevers.
Just like a fighter.
Just like a ranger.
Just like a paladin.
Just like a barbarian.
Only that's not true, the paladin and barbarian actually have more options then the "martial artist" class.
How depressing is it that you make a class literally designed around emulating mythical martial arts and it's thousands of different styles, and it plays no differently from a fighter who just punches things?
I suppose this is why I like swordsages as the "replacement" monk so much. They have different maneuvers and different stances and different styles of fighting. You know...like an actual "martial artist."
How does the 4E monk fight differently? I am not versed in the new system.
To cross-post from EN World, one of my issues with the monk throughout D&D (though they fixed it in 4e) is that he doesn't play differently.
So, the way to make class play differently is 4th edition :D?
It would have been great if the Monk simply got the equivalent of Air Walk at some level. Rather than going with the old school odd super speed, just embrace the wuxia and let the guy gracefully dance about in the air.
Shift the Monk's High Jump ability down a couple of levels to get the mobility going sooner, and then plop Air Walk in after that. Then just remove the flow fall stuff.
Now THAT is a good idea, IMO.
It fits the source material, and fits the class in a unique way from all others.
I like it!
;-D
Also, ... I'd love to hear more about how 4e monks are different ...
*pulls up a chair and a bucket of popcorn to listen*
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I suppose this is why I like swordsages as the "replacement" monk so much. They have different maneuvers and different stances and different styles of fighting. You know...like an actual "martial artist."
Man I could go on a 1000 pages of hate on Swordsage (and the other B09S classes.) I can't describe how bad I hate them all.
Man I could go on a 1000 pages of hate on Swordsage (and the other B09S classes.) I can't describe how bad I hate them all.
Keep in mind, though, his point is that the class has a "feel" that mimics different martial styles. Forget mechanics/balance comments (where I'm guessing you're distaste comes from) - just focus on "it's different" in play and that's where he's coming from.
If I'm putting words in anyone's mouth - apologies.
Although I do agree it seems a little out of place at high levels. However its been a part of the game for 10 years.
Just as a quick note here - the above is a TERRIBLE reason to justify any systemic observation on mechanics or play styles.
Just because "it's always been like that" is NOT a good reason to leave it that way.
Given all the flak that comes in the direction of the monk, I'd say *all* things are on the table for evaluation. Honestly, looking at 10+ years of "monks are mini-Flash style characters" is a bit of nonsense that doesn't fit thematically even with the source material. Wuxia is a pretty clearly defined style, however, and has plenty of elements we can draw from to put into place for the monks to use in a revisionist sort of project or thought experiment (like our current one), so why not edge out the things that do not fit in favor of ideas that *do* work for the class and that come from source (or at least inspirational) material?
Although I do agree it seems a little out of place at high levels. However its been a part of the game for 10 years.Just as a quick note here - the above is a TERRIBLE reason to justify any systemic observation on mechanics or play styles.
Just because "it's always been like that" is NOT a good reason to leave it that way.
Given all the flak that comes in the direction of the monk, I'd say *all* things are on the table for evaluation. Honestly, looking at 10+ years of "monks are mini-Flash style characters" is a bit of nonsense that doesn't fit thematically even with the source material. Wuxia is a pretty clearly defined style, however, and has plenty of elements we can draw from to put into place for the monks to use in a revisionist sort of project or thought experiment (like our current one), so why not edge out the things that do not fit in favor of ideas that *do* work for the class and that come from source (or at least inspirational) material?
My perspective is that it is best to change the class as little as possible, because the class has been established for some time now. I am more interested in coming up with patches to way the monk currently works rather than redesigning the class from the bottom up.
As soon as we start looking at changing the feel of the monk, then we are subjectively creating a new class, rather than fixing the old one.
I have no problem with people creating alternative classes, but that is not my intent for fixing what's wrong with the monk.
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*facepalm*
Apparently, there is a substantial group of folks who enjoy playing characters that can jump around really quick and high, do strange little remotely useful things and have high saves and ACs.
I'm not sure if you are able to convince them that "YOU DON'T OWN THE UNIVERSE = YOU FAIL AT LIFE" (or in a lite version "your DPS fails at life so you are a liability" mindset is applicable. It's just like ... trying to reverse a river by bare arms.
What's wrong with the monk? NOTHING. I have played monks and at high levels they are the proverbial cockroaches. There saves rule, they have a big bag of tricks instead of punching, and are very difficult to kill. Many times, my group faced a TPK and would have if I wasn't playing a monk. They don't do the damage that fighters and barbarians, but so what.
If a high percentage finds something wrong with the class then something must be wrong with it. I understand that different groups have different play styles, but it working in certain groups does not mean the class is ok. I assure you it would not be too effective in most of my games. The APG has yet to be included in these assessments, but I doubt it would matter much.
I can also tell you that every time someone tells me the monk saved the battle I normally to point to a house-rule or say how "I would have done it" that would have made the battle end differently.With all that said I am glad you enjoy the class, but without specific examples you won't sway many people here.
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Paladins even do the "cockroach" thing better. Better saves, higher hp, can have as good or better AC (most don't focus on this), can even fast move thanks to animal companion. Oh, and the best BBEG killing in the game, high damage charges, and not a fraction of the MAD. So once again monks fail :(.
Back to hating monks. And fish. Who would play a fish, when dolphins are faster, cuter, and have higher BAB? Sure fish can stay in water a little longer, but how often does that come up?
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Paladins even do the "cockroach" thing better *snip* and not a fraction of the MAD.
Strength for Melee Combat and Damage
Constitution for HP and Fort SavesDexterity for Armor CLass, Ranged Combat and Reflex Save
Charisma for Lay on Hands, Smite, Saves, and Channel
That's four abilty scores the paladin needs(Dex less than the others, but you still need it), which is the same as the monk. I'm seeing more than a touch of MAD...
Could you please explain your veiw on the matter?
If your game lets you use things from 3.5, the ki rapps from MIC will boost the DC on stunning fist by 2.
I like the monk just fine for a 4 level dip for my fighter. If you keep to light armor you can use about half or more of the monk abilities you gain from the first four levels. You can make use of the ki pool abilities while in light armor to give you a nice boost to speed or a boost to AC. You get 4 uses of stunning fist which is based on character level and wis which is nice for a fighter to have any way. You pick up +4 to all of you saves, 2 feats, and only loss one point of BAB. You also pick up skills like acrobatics and perception.
You also pick up evasion which you can use in light armor. Just go with mithral breastplate for a good AC. In order to use stunning fist with your weapon just make it a ki weapon. I like to Ki mystic monk four levels and Weapon Master Fighter for the rest. With the combat trait Armor Expert I have armor check penalty of 0 when in mithral breastplate. The only thing you loss by going with light armor is flurry, monk AC bonus, and a speed boost. The only thing I would like to have is the speed boost.
So...give the monk "pounce"?
Is that the concensus?
So...give the monk "pounce"?
Is that the concensus?
That has been one idea seems like a useful use of a Ki point or two (or more)
Another has been to open up more maneuver feats (including the greater versions)
yet another is to make them an exception to the linked BAB/HD rule.
I wonder if it wouldn't be worth looking at he Midnight Game setting their unarmed fighter was a full BAB class but I honestly don't remember what the rest of the class (3.0 version) possessed.
On a new proposal front:
I wonder if to make the monk the "maneuver character" either give them a boon to using maneuvers:
a) a class level based increase to CM checks (perhaps also make CM's based off Wis to mitigate MAD)
b) a measure of (the monk may choose to inflict) X damage to be inflicted by a successful CM
So...give the monk "pounce"?
Is that the concensus?
Honestly I think if you allowed all the classes to take a penalty to hit and allowed them to combine full attacks with movement then the game would be much superior and much more dynamic.
If for instance the monk with 60' movement could tumble through the frontline of enemy and then lay a stunning fist/full attack on the opposition leader/artillery then I think the class finally measures up to the expectations given by years of watching martial arts/wuxia movies.
Further if everyone has access to full attack + movement even if it's -2 or -4 or whatever regular melee types aren't that much behind the pouncers.
I also think that the monk should have full BAB (it's a full on martial character in my mind) because all the weird exceptions that it has currently are pretty much nonsensical, i.e. I have full BAB when flurrying, but only 3/4 BAB when I do a single unarmed attack. Moving them to full BAB doesn't really explode the balance of the characters (give fighter types more skills so they'll shut up ;))and it fixes some of the weirdness.
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Pal: Str + Cha: essential in that order Con: nice; should be 12-14 Dex: 10-12, any more is a waste (no reason to make a big expense out of mithril full). Can dump int easily, wis fairly easily.
Monk: needs high str (18) to have any impact on game. Both wis and dex need to be fairly high. Con, again 12-14. Int and Cha are pretty much necessary dump stats, though dumping int does lose one of the minor benefits of monks.
So same # needed stats, but thanks to better hp and free heals pally can skimp "more easily" on Con, and some of his lesser stats are more easily kept lower. Meanwhile, at least through his PFS life (high levels that nobody plays the math gets too silly to debate) he should have better saves, better hp, and better ac; and if you count his horse can be faster too.
And I also believe monks gained pounce and lost nothing around 8ish they'd be balanced and still a little weak; kinda sad when you think about it. It'd be a step in the right direction though.
How does the 4E monk fight differently? I am not versed in the new system.
So, basically, in 4e, all classes have powers - at-will, per encounter, and dailies. They work in a way that influences how the class plays. Rogues have powers that reward them for being sneaky or for catching enemies in a flank or off guard, barbarians are rewarded for going "HAH HAH SCREW YOU" to everything and charging into the enemy axe first.
The monk powers all do two things. First, the reward mobility - lots and lots of mobility. A few powers have you moving and making an attack on everyone you move past. The actual Flurry of Blows rewards you for making more then one attack.
Secondly, they're unique in that they have two ways they can be used. You can use them normally to attack...but each power also has a "move action," so you can leap, tumble, slide, dodge, or even fly around the battlefield to your best advantage. So, let's say I take the encounter power Springing Drake Assault. Using it normally I deal damage and hit the enemy hard enough to make them slide away. Using it as a movement power, however, and I can jump to any square adjacent to any enemy adjacent to me - including leaping over them.
Another example is Opening the Gate of Battle. THe enemy takes extra damage if they were at full HP before I attack them...or as a movement power I move faster then my normal speed and ignore opportunity attacks from the first enemy I encounter.
Overall, the feel is a character who very much is springing around, in and out of reach, hitting, throwing, tripping, or otherwise kung fu-ing baddies as I pass through - leaping around front liners to hit the squishies behind, or even just tumbling through them to catch them in a flank. The movement powers are unique to the monk, so they very much are their own class.
Also give everything pounce, the "full attack action" was never a good idea.
Another example is Opening the Gate of Battle. THe enemy takes extra damage if they were at full HP before I attack them..
what's the sense of it O_o?
yet another is to make them an exception to the linked BAB/HD rule.
Well, there could be another solution without breaking the BaB/HD rule.
Giving them d10 HD (and conversely Full BaB).
Seriously, in all JRPGs (where Monks are true powerhouses), the Monk is always the 'brutish' class, with almost no equipment, no weapons (except for Gloves/Claws in many JRPGs) and limited armors. I would dare to say that in a conversion to Pathfinder, they would be akin to a Full BaB/d12 HD class.
The most balanced (and fun) Monks I've ever played are those in the Final Fantasy Tactics JRPG - powerhouses with mystic powers to compensate their lack of equipment (which in some games, like this one, translate in slightly less overall hp than those of other martial classes - those games which give bonus hp for wearing armors -, while in some other games translate in slightly more overall damage taken - those games which give a defense bonus with armors), with one of the highest DPR of the game, a bunch of special 'mystical' abilities: range ki attacks, a 'whirlwind attack' for moderate close-area damage, ability to heal self in a CONSPICUOS way (not the Wholeness of Body which is - frankly - a joke...), abnormal status remover ability, death strikes, even a raise dead ki skill ! They are characters which are completely self-sufficient, and a group of only Monks is considered one of the easiest 'challenge modes' in the game (since they lack only long range area attacks, but their hps are among the highest and they are capable of remove ailments, cure hp and revive the dead).
Now, without changing the class so much, I believe that:
- giving the Monk Full BaB/d10
- improving considerably the Wholeness of Body ability (standard action for 2 ki points to heal 8-10 hp ? suuure...)
- including the Greater XXX feats as bonus feats (with the only prerequisite of taking the Improved XXX feat before)
- giving them an 'inherent' enhancement bonus to their Unarmed Strikes at higher levels
- 'removing' body slots in order to compensate for those benefits (think of it as a 'chakra slot' modeled on the Magic of Incarnum... the Monk 'locks' his own ki into his body to gain mystical abilities like the enhancement to Unarmed Strikes, but in doing so it is precluded to take some magic items which could 'resonate' in a negative way with their own powers)
the Monk would truly become the 'body-as-weapon', self-sufficient, martial art artist.
Just my 2 ki cents.
what's the sense of it O_o?
Another example is Opening the Gate of Battle. THe enemy takes extra damage if they were at full HP before I attack them..
You're opening the gates of battle. The enemy is at full health and feeling invincible, or hasn't even made an attack yet. You're catching them completely off guard, especially when you consider how the movement power pushes at you to literally attack them from beyond your usual range. Imagine the archer getting ready to plunk at someone from afar when suddenly the monk is moving faster then he could've ever imagined, charging across the entire battlefield to attack him, easily dodging the attempted attack made by the meatshield in front.
One thing I forgot to mention - you can use both the movement and the attack power of one discipline, but you can't mix and match. I can't use Opening the Gates of Battle to move extra fast and far and then attack with a different discipline. At the same time, I can use an encounter power twice in the same turn - once to move, and once to attack.
So...give the monk "pounce"?
Is that the concensus?Honestly I think if you allowed all the classes to take a penalty to hit and allowed them to combine full attacks with movement then the game would be much superior and much more dynamic.
If for instance the monk with 60' movement could tumble through the frontline of enemy and then lay a stunning fist/full attack on the opposition leader/artillery then I think the class finally measures up to the expectations given by years of watching martial arts/wuxia movies.
Further if everyone has access to full attack + movement even if it's -2 or -4 or whatever regular melee types aren't that much behind the pouncers.
I also think that the monk should have full BAB (it's a full on martial character in my mind) because all the weird exceptions that it has currently are pretty much nonsensical, i.e. I have full BAB when flurrying, but only 3/4 BAB when I do a single unarmed attack. Moving them to full BAB doesn't really explode the balance of the characters (give fighter types more skills so they'll shut up ;))and it fixes some of the weirdness.
+1
yeah I dont think moving and full attacking would break the game.
I can see a rogue tumbling through a line of defense making a stab at each and a samurai like fighter striking multiple opponents along his running path.
Just doesnt seem realistic that even at twentieth level most characters can only attack once after a movement action sans some magical effect.
I see - something like Deadly Stroke, or Sneak Attack - you take advantage of catching off guard the enemy.
Nevertheless, the HP thing, seems quite akward.. compared to flat-footed or such.
What if the enemy it's on a dangerous terrain, and takes damage from spikes or fire? The monk attack no longer deals more damage even if he's expected to surprise the enemy O_o?
In case no one noticed the monk is based off of this.
You beat me to it (although I was going to link to a clip from the movie). :-)
... Good stuff...
yet another is to make them an exception to the linked BAB/HD rule.
Also agree with the d12. Especially if you think of hitpoints as not actual physical damage.
I see - something like Deadly Stroke, or Sneak Attack - you take advantage of catching off guard the enemy.
Nevertheless, the HP thing, seems quite akward.. compared to flat-footed or such.
What if the enemy it's on a dangerous terrain, and takes damage from spikes or fire? The monk attack no longer deals more damage even if he's expected to surprise the enemy O_o?
I am not catching the meaning of your last statement. can you elaborate for me?
as for the deadly stroke and sneak attack I can see that but to be fair that makes things a little less suckish for those characters without making them better fighters than a fighter. Spring attack could break it i suppose though
The power works better (deals more damage) if the target has full HP.
By itslef, it's fine: read the description Cirno bringed. The enemy is confident, and the battle didn't begin.
BUT what makes little sense for me is the trigger: WHY full HP? If something harms the enemy regardless the battle (see my examples above, or think about a falling object), the power has no the "increased damage" effect, even if, by fluff, there's nothing that should foribid that.
The power works better (deals more damage) if the target has full HP.
By itslef, it's fine: read the description Cirno bringed. The enemy is confident, and the battle didn't begin.
BUT what makes little sense for me is the trigger: WHY full HP? If something harms the enemy regardless the battle (see my examples above, or think about a falling object), the power has no the "increased damage" effect, even if, by fluff, there's nothing that should foribid that.
I'm not sure there's anything in the world that makes a person lose more confidence then a bloody lip ;)
Even if combat has begun, Joe the Juggernaut is still at full HP, still feeling invincible, still smashing the punies, hahaha, stupid punies, they're so weak and worthless!
...And then something hits him.
Here, have a different example :p. It also helps remind us that move actions can happen after an attack.
Dragon's Tail. Fairly low amount of damage, but, if it hits, knocks the enemy prone. The movement technique?
Trade places with either one adjacent ally or an adjacent prone enemy ;)