Any class can be as much or as little item dependent as the game you are playing in allows.
Sometimes games have very little magic items, and the GM has to adjust CR power levels to be in line with that... or not, and it's a more difficult combat game.
Sometimes games have the rules-suggested amount of magic items, and then all the RAW stuff works as it was intended at the time of writing.
Sometimes everyone has crazy weapons and items that are all homebrewed and the monsters are terribly monstrous and difficult and it's a magic-filled land of wonder and surprise.
All of these things are fun to play for certain people. There's no wrong answer here. The reason that the DPR Olympics were set up using RAW rules was so that there was a baseline set of tables and values from the books that everyone could access, rather than trying to translate their own game across the internet.
I suppose overall that doesn't really answer your question, and so, I apologize. :P
Any class can be as much or as little item dependent as the game you are playing in allows.
Sometimes games have very little magic items, and the GM has to adjust CR power levels to be in line with that... or not, and it's a more difficult combat game.
Sometimes games have the rules-suggested amount of magic items, and then all the RAW stuff works as it was intended at the time of writing.
Sometimes everyone has crazy weapons and items that are all homebrewed and the monsters are terribly monstrous and difficult and it's a magic-filled land of wonder and surprise.
All of these things are fun to play for certain people. There's no wrong answer here. The reason that the DPR Olympics were set up using RAW rules was so that there was a baseline set of tables and values from the books that everyone could access, rather than trying to translate their own game across the internet.
I suppose overall that doesn't really answer your question, and so, I apologize. :P
I think the goal was to see how the loss of magic items affected the fighter in an otherwise standard game.
I think the goal was to see how the loss of magic items affected the fighter in an otherwise standard game.
Oh. Then, probably... quite a bit. I wouldn't want to play someone with low-magic gear in a normal- high-magic campaign, not unless I had some sort of "Vow of Poverty" type feat.
Feat: Sacred Vow: Vow of Poverty ; Book of Exalted Deeds, WoTC
VoP is still weaker than standard magic gear. Even on a Druid, who is the best class for VoP.
Better than nothing, I suppose.
Honestly, my question was somewhat rhetorical. I'm simply trying to pin some of the ongoing flames/discussion to a bit of verisimiltude/reality :-) I don't think a lot of the posters recognize just how heavy of a hit not having WBL magic items is to a fighter, who has far fewer options to mitigate their resulting problems than does the average caster.
A lack of magical items honestly hurts every about equally.
A wizard needs scrolls to get new spells for the most part (he can learn from others but scrolls are about the easiest way of gaining new spells while out adventuring), and without his Int boosters his DCs drop significantly, as does his extra spells per day and his Concentration checks (with "Stats for level" being on par the wizard *typically* only has a 45~35% chance of losing a spell on a Concentration check -- without the Intelligence booster those figures go up about 10~15% to 45~55% chance of a lost spell just on casting defensively). Without pearls of power he loses stamina -- same for missing wands/staves/rings etc. His save throws suffer in the same ways fighter's do.
This isn't to say that he is hurt *more* than the fighter -- just that their pain without magical items is about even.
I would postulate that the druid and cleric are hurt the least by a lack of magical gear.
******
And before anyone offers the "but the wizard can just make his own!" crap remember that the fighter can do the same -- and any campaign that is limiting magical items will be limiting magical items -- not simply "He's limited but you are not".
EDIT:
I had a friend bring up some issues with magical items/spell DCs/Save throw bonuses/ Etc...
I cover several points about save throws, wealth spending, investment in class features, etc in that thread that I think are pertient in this one.
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I know this probably isn't the angle your shooting for here, but I think a lot of it has to do with the player as well. I've got a guy playing a fighter in a campaign I'm running who's basically given up on life since his magic armor got eaten by a rust monster. He told me last session he's just going to throw his PC at anything that looks even remotely dangerous until he dies. Two other characters (a ranger and wizard/cleric) had every piece of gear they owned dissolved by a black pudding and got over it in no time. In this guy's case, it isn't so much magic item-dependence as it is addiction.
I should also probably point out said player immediately sold all his spare loot to replace the destroyed armor and is still acting this way.
A wizard doesn't really NEED to make his own - he has spells to cover things. He can give himself a +4 enhancement bonus to intelligence, remember? ;p
They also learn spells automatically as they level.
Certainly no magic items hurt the wizard, but not nearly as much as it hurts the fighter. Hell, unless you're an archer fighter, a monster with flying is almost immune to your fighter without magical weapons.
A wizard doesn't really NEED to make his own - he has spells to cover things. He can give himself a +4 enhancement bonus to intelligence, remember? ;p
They also learn spells automatically as they level.
Certainly no magic items hurt the wizard, but not nearly as much as it hurts the fighter. Hell, unless you're an archer fighter, a monster with flying is almost immune to your fighter without magical weapons.
Oh sure! That's right let me burn... how many spells per day to keep my +4 to intelligence in order to keep it for 24 hours so I get my bonus spells and skill points?
Or you are instead suggesting that the first thing I'm going to do every fight is cast Fox's Cunning?
As I pointed out earlier every spell cast is another spell the wizard can not use for that day. So all those fox's cunning spells are going to eat up the wizard's ability to actual do something effective during a fight.
Your suggestion that a fighter that isn't an "archer fighter" isn't going to do any good is ludicrous. After all any fighter can use a bow and a magical sword isn't going to help with a flying monster as you suggest. Besides any fighter that doesn't prepare for cases where melee won't work is asking for it just like a wizard that prepares nothing but fireballs and burning hands is asking for a fight with a fire immune monster.
I would honestly suggest at this point you go visit the link I provided since you are going over points that were covered in it.
So being reduced from magic at WBL to masterwork reduces a 10th level fighter with this build's DPS down to approximately 60% of the DPR olympics Falchion Fred's. In addition, his AC dropped by 3 and all his saves by 2. My suspicion is that other builds, like 'Tempest Ted' would be even harder hit owing to the fact that they've got less latitude in 'to hit' than this build. Swapping from falchion to greatsword gives you almost the same dps on power attack (trading 2 points of average damage for 20% crit instead of 30%, this is almost at the breakpoint for the falchion/greatsword switch).
This is true. However, if this did occur, then (in a party of cooperative players) the Sorcerer (or Wiz, but easier for a Sor) walks over and casts Greater Magic Weapon, granting the Fighter a +2 magic weapon for 10 hours. And, when the group gets to the dungeon (or whatever, assuming that they know there's combat coming) the Oracle (or Cleric, or Wiz/Sor) casts Bull's Strength on the fighter, giving him back his +4 to Str. Maybe the Oracle throws on a Magic Vestment for +2 Armor, and any full caster can tack on +1 Resistance to saves for the next minute (and cast it again every minute for free).
Suddenly the Fighter isn't missing nearly so much DPR anymore, nor is he much easier to hit. Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment are Hour per level spells - they last all adventuring day even if the party adventures for a reasonable period of time (instead of resting after ten minutes).
This is what I don't like about this argument - it doesn't taken into account that casters can reproduce all those "necessary" magic items with a handful of spells. If you have a party of nothing but Fighters, sure you're screwed. But you'd be screwed in a full magic item game too if you had nothing but Fighters, if only for the healing needs.
If your casters won't buff you because they want to save all their spells for whatever, then they aren't being team players, just like a player who refuses to five-foot step to give you a flank is not being a team player.
Edit: I might also want to note that, in the no-magic-item-game, the spontanous casters (Sor and Ora) are King, since they can afford to fire off a number of their many, many spell slots to buff themselves and their friends.
And Abraham, bonus spells aside, the Sor only needs to keep the Stats buffed for however long combat is going on. At 10th level, most of the combat spells are 3rd to 5th level, leaving 2nd level free for buffs.
And Abraham, bonus spells aside, the Sor only needs to keep the Stats buffed for however long combat is going on. At 10th level, most of the combat spells are 3rd to 5th level, leaving 2nd level free for buffs.
However such buffs again take an action and spell slot that you can't use for utility needs such as: Spider climb, See Invisibility, Invisibility -- or defensive needs such as: Mirror Image, Glitterdust, or Resist Energy. The sorcerer *could* use greater invisibility instead but then he's got 1 of his 3 spells for 4th level spells hammered down -- offensive options are also limited since he couldn't be casting scorching ray with that slot (which stays a viable *something to do* spell for a good length of time).
Yes the spell caster could waste an action in what is probably the most important round of combat (the first) to buff his casting stat and use up the spell slot -- but if he does as I said before it's other spells he won't be using that day -- spells he will need more since he doesn't have magic items to fall back on for other party needs.
After all Combat isn't the only part of pathfinder, and the sorcerer especially is limited in his spells known meaning that he has to be very careful picking what he will cast.
As you pointed out the party will really need to be team players in such a campaign -- you can't do that if you are wasting spell slots and actions on a self buff the first round of every fight.
Oh sure! That's right let me burn... how many spells per day to keep my +4 to intelligence in order to keep it for 24 hours so I get my bonus spells and skill points?
Or you are instead suggesting that the first thing I'm going to do every fight is cast Fox's Cunning?
Seeing as how the spell lasts ten minutes per caster level, you cast it once as you go into the dungeon and maybe once again later after it runs out. You do it to increase your DCs
As I pointed out earlier every spell cast is another spell the wizard can not use for that day. So all those fox's cunning spells are going to eat up the wizard's ability to actual do something effective during a fight.
Not really. Wizards get a ton of spells.
Your suggestion that a fighter that isn't an "archer fighter" isn't going to do any good is ludicrous. After all any fighter can use a bow and a magical sword isn't going to help with a flying monster as you suggest. Besides any fighter that doesn't prepare for cases where melee won't work is asking for it just like a wizard that prepares nothing but fireballs and burning hands is asking for a fight with a fire immune monster.
And how much damage are you doing plinking away with that bow? You probably don't have good dex so assuming you even hit in the first place, you ain't doing much.
Now, a magic sword, that won't help against a flying monster...but an item that gives flight? That helps. It's downright neccissary.
How does the fighter prepare with no magic items? That's an honest question - what lengths can he go to in order to "prepare" for this?
In fact, what about DR? No magic weapon, remember? Hello, the golf bag has returned, only this time you're begging your DM to give you a sword of each material. Oh, what's that, the monster has DR/Holy? Yeah, you aren't even scratching it.
Wizard? No it's cool - see I took a feat that makes it even easier for me to bypass spell resistance, if the spell I use even has SR in the first place. I'm good.
My concern about being magic item dependent comes from Critital Feats
Cloaks of Resistance and the "Fortification" ability give an extra defense about it.
Since eveyone can get that ability (from armor, shields or bracers) it doesn't seem to be just a Fighter's problem. However without those items looks like there is no point in playing a Fighter that can't score a stunning crit rolling 15 (for medium-high level characters).
CIRNO:
Isn't Fox's Cunning ONE minute per caster level?
"Wizard get a ton of spells" means nothing. It depends heavily from what you prepared, the time you pre-buffed you, what happened, how smart/prepared/lucky are your enemies in eveluating where attacking you and how, the incidence of dispel magic...
And since we are talink, as always, of Schroedinger's Wizards, what about a Schroedinger's Fighter able to ignore up to 10 points of any Damage Reduction?
EWHM: the shield can be sundered.
All of this not to say that meleers are less dependant from magic items. It's just to remember that people put things way too simply in a very situational game :)
Oh sure! That's right let me burn... how many spells per day to keep my +4 to intelligence in order to keep it for 24 hours so I get my bonus spells and skill points?
Or you are instead suggesting that the first thing I'm going to do every fight is cast Fox's Cunning?
Seeing as how the spell lasts ten minutes per caster level, you cast it once as you go into the dungeon and maybe once again later after it runs out. You do it to increase your DCs
What part of 1 minute per level is the same as 10 minutes per level? Oh right none of it -- Know thy spells.
Increase your DCs that's great -- but it's a spell eaten up (that doesn't last 10 minutes per level by the way) that is giving you a +10% and eats an action plus a spell known (for sorcerers). For wizards the cost is about the same since you have to memorize it limiting what spells you have access to for the day.
All in all this option is a non-starter -- you're giving up a lot of options for a possibility of increasing DCs for your spells for one fight -- and even if you do use this spell it has no effect unless you spend more spells. Now granted you probably were going to cast something but it directs your energies and presents you with a false dilemma of "I got to cast my DC based spells now because this is the best DCs I'm going to have today" (realise I said false dilemma on purpose -- some will not fall into this trap -- many will however).
As I pointed out earlier every spell cast is another spell the wizard can not use for that day. So all those fox's cunning spells are going to eat up the wizard's ability to actual do something effective during a fight.Not really. Wizards get a ton of spells.
Not per day though. If magical items are actually limited then the wizard only has the spells he has prepared -- in which case every spell prepared is an opportunity cost -- it means you can't have a different spell instead. Yes the wizard could have every spell of 2nd level in his book -- but that doesn't him a fat lot of good when he needs to cast the spell now. Also the wizard will have less spells per day as well due to the fact he isn't getting as many bonuses spells (from lack of stat boosters). The spells he is getting are 5~15% more likely to fail and he's 5~15% less likely to succeed on a concentration check.
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Your suggestion that a fighter that isn't an "archer fighter" isn't going to do any good is ludicrous. After all any fighter can use a bow and a magical sword isn't going to help with a flying monster as you suggest. Besides any fighter that doesn't prepare for cases where melee won't work is asking for it just like a wizard that prepares nothing but fireballs and burning hands is asking for a fight with a fire immune monster.
And how much damage are you doing plinking away with that bow? You probably don't have good dex so assuming you even hit in the first place, you ain't doing much.
Now, a magic sword, that won't help against a flying monster...but an item that gives flight? That helps. It's downright neccissary.
How does the fighter prepare with no magic items? That's an honest question - what lengths can he go to in order to "prepare" for this?
In fact, what about DR? No magic weapon, remember? Hello, the golf bag has returned, only this time you're begging your DM to give you a sword of each material. Oh, what's that, the monster has DR/Holy? Yeah, you aren't even scratching it.
Wizard? No it's cool - see I took a feat that makes it even easier for me to...
Honestly there are a lot of options for fighters -- A fighter with a strength bow is going to do his strength + weapon damage -- if he invests a single feat (deadly aim) he can plunk away for 1d8+strength bonus+2/4 levels damage. Granted it's not perfect -- but then you don't have magical items -- take what you can get -- if they decide they don't like the arrows they'll either close or run -- each is victory since if they close you can change to a different weapon to really hurt them and if they run you don't have to deal with them anymore.
Also DR? Ok what about penetrating strike and Greater Penetrating strike? Do those not exist? I'm assuming they do -- again not perfect options but available since magical items aren't available look at what options you have. DR/Holy getting you down? Obviously you should have invested in a torch, some alchemist fire, maybe some holy water or acid. Troll Sceptic is a good choice to in a low magic game.
Heavens forbid we actually play a fighter intelligently.
can't afford them in normal campagin environments.
Very well. They will use them only in certain campaing. But IN THAT CASE they will bel very useful
And.. Deadly Aim and the two penetrating strike feats are 3 feat in total. I can see that every feat slot is gold, but if the campaing calls for it, I can definitively see the fighter find a way to take them.
I almost always go for deadly aim in a fighter build unless it's a sword/board/TWF build which has the feat starvation I mentioned earlier. The big bruiser build can almost always afford to buff his secondary archery function to at least moderately dangerous, even if he's not going for a switch-hitter build (the 2handed & bow switch hitter build is the most popular among my players who play fighters).
Semi-derail: I love deadly aim. No prereqs barring a 13 dex, scales with BAB and allows a switch in fighting style quite decent.
More feats like that are needed. And feats that scale with level :P
I had it mixed up with other spells. God knows the duration on it seems to change with every micro-edition change ;p
CIRNO:
Isn't Fox's Cunning ONE minute per caster level?
Many groups that played in 3.0 where it was 1hr/level immediately house-ruled the 1min/level change in 3.5 up to a middle ground of 10min/level.
When you consider the relative worth of other 2nd level spells the stat boosters make sense to be 10min/level rather than 1min/level.
-James
Houserules that are not announced do not exist.
EDIT: agreement with cirno's last statement.
The fighter gets armor and weapon training which it did not get in 3.5. When the fighter goes full plate and weapon training keeps to hit and damage up somewhat. I Fighter can keep up until about level ten or so. The Fighter is playable but not very good without magical gear. Just a bit of magic goes a long way in making the fighter better.
A part working together could fight the right level of CR enemies but the spell casters would run though their spells in one or two combats because of having to use spells to make up for magic gear. I would say you loss 50% to 70% of a fighter’s combat ability at levels above 10. You should still be able to hit and every attack should not damage you, but you will be going through your Hp a lot faster.
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CIRNO:
Isn't Fox's Cunning ONE minute per caster level?
Many groups that played in 3.0 where it was 1hr/level immediately house-ruled the 1min/level change in 3.5 up to a middle ground of 10min/level.
When you consider the relative worth of other 2nd level spells the stat boosters make sense to be 10min/level rather than 1min/level.
-James
Or better still, stayed playing 3.0e and not had to worry. The reduction to 1 min/level in 3.5e was just to appease the 'D&D should be a boardgame that runs encounter to encounter' Gods of WotC. We wouldn't want people to have to keep track of say numbers longer than the attention span of a gnat - it'll ruin the game! I'm firmly with Monte on the bastard child that was 3.5e being, well the bastard child.
Sorry ranting,
S.
CIRNO:
Isn't Fox's Cunning ONE minute per caster level?
Many groups that played in 3.0 where it was 1hr/level immediately house-ruled the 1min/level change in 3.5 up to a middle ground of 10min/level.
When you consider the relative worth of other 2nd level spells the stat boosters make sense to be 10min/level rather than 1min/level.
-James
Or better still, stayed playing 3.0e and not had to worry. The reduction to 1 min/level in 3.5e was just to appease the 'D&D should be a boardgame that runs encounter to encounter' Gods of WotC. We wouldn't want people to have to keep track of say numbers longer than the attention span of a gnat - it'll ruin the game! I'm firmly with Monte on the bastard child that was 3.5e being, well the bastard child.
Sorry ranting,
S.
Man, what.
A lack of magical items honestly hurts every about equally.
No, it doesn't. There are certain abilities that you have to be able to deal with at mid-high levels, like flight and invisibility.
A caster may be able to do something about them. A non-caster has no way of dealing with invisibility and the only answer they have to flight is missile weapons, and unless they are built to use them effectively, that's probably not much of an answer.
It's actually pretty simple. The monsters have magic at some point you will need magic to defeat them.
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Man, what.
Said it was a rant, normally rants don't require comprehensibilty...
Thats said, what I was referring to was the spells like Bull Strength that were 1 hr/level and level based and in 3.5e they became 1 rnd/level and static +4. More and more abilities/effects/spells have been eroded away to have an affect only during a single encounter. That is what I meant by encounter to encounter. I mean why would you ever cast those types of buff spell out of combat? If you did then you have to ask yourself was it better to keep such buffs until a combat? What was the issue of a Bull Strength lasting 1 hr/level? A symptom of D&D drilling down to focus more and more on the micro-management of combat. Someone musted have asked for this, but I know it wasn't me.
Come on, who was it, own up. You, you there...
Like I said Rant.
Honestly, my question was somewhat rhetorical. I'm simply trying to pin some of the ongoing flames/discussion to a bit of verisimiltude/reality :-) I don't think a lot of the posters recognize just how heavy of a hit not having WBL magic items is to a fighter, who has far fewer options to mitigate their resulting problems than does the average caster.
What you're saying is, as a basic truth in D&D, a Fighter will suffer more than a Wizard, in a limited WBL (meaning magic items) game. If the CR is not adjusted, the Fighter will suffer even more. If that is what you mean, then I agree completely. To add insult to injury, some DMs even advocate giving out free Feats to all characters, thereby lessening one of the Fighters greatest advantages (Feats, lots of 'em.)
Why do Dms hate Fighters? :)
I don't think a fighter needs much terms of magic items at all. Sure they are nice but between the Cleric and Wizard they can buff you enough keep up. I see this happen in games all the time. Like the wizard grabs leadership and take a meat shield as cohort. Buffs him up and send him in. Doesn't bother wasting magic items on the cohort but the that Fighter does very well for being 2 levels lower.
If you are a fighter trying to outshine a wizard, forget it. No amount of magic items will help. The Wizard can make you feel like you are shining and take what you can get. The Wizard is putting you in harms way after all. The more magic you have the better you will survive.