I have a third level Gnome Necromancy. He wants to become vampire/ undead, but I don't want to play him as Evil. How do I do that?
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Bribe your DM and hope he's not very smart.
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I would tell him to wait until he can cast Wish. Which is, admittedly, very, very far in the future for a third level necromancer. When he gets the wish spell, I would allow him to achieve the bonuses described in the One of Us ability in the Undead Sorcerer bloodline with two wishes (one for undead immunities and another for DR). He would have to wish for "undeath", "life undying" or "to deny death". Twice. And being undead would be a hefty penalty in many places.
Alternatively, I think the easy way would be to let a ghoul kill you. But that could end very badly.
I have a third level Gnome Necromancy. He wants to become vampire/ undead, but I don't want to play him as Evil. How do I do that?
Work with your DM, and the rest of your group. There's actually nothing in the beastiary that states that vampires must be evil. However, if your PC becomes one they suddenly gain a bunch of powers that put them well ahead of the curve of everyone else. Not to mention some serious weaknesses that the others in your group may not like having to deal with. D&D is a collaborative game. Time to collarborate.
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I have a third level Gnome Necromancy. He wants to become vampire/ undead, but I don't want to play him as Evil. How do I do that?Work with your DM, and the rest of your group. There's actually nothing in the beastiary that states that vampires must be evil. However, if your PC becomes one they suddenly gain a bunch of powers that put them well ahead of the curve of everyone else. Not to mention some serious weaknesses that the others in your group may not like having to deal with. D&D is a collaborative game. Time to collarborate.
Well under "Creating a Vampire" it does say "Alignment: Any Evil"
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I have a third level Gnome Necromancy. He wants to become vampire/ undead, but I don't want to play him as Evil. How do I do that?Work with your DM, and the rest of your group. There's actually nothing in the beastiary that states that vampires must be evil.
To expand on what Zappo says here, while the vampire template requires alignment of "any evil," the Beastiary description of alignment essentially allows fluid alignments within the needs of the campaign.
That said, it's really something that requires the input of your group. For example, I have no interest in GMing undead characters nor playing characters who would adventure with undead characters. I have a less flexible approach to this than some others might. The point is: investigate it in a way that works for your group as a whole, which might include not doing it at all.
Well under "Creating a Vampire" it does say "Alignment: Any Evil"I have a third level Gnome Necromancy. He wants to become vampire/ undead, but I don't want to play him as Evil. How do I do that?Work with your DM, and the rest of your group. There's actually nothing in the beastiary that states that vampires must be evil. However, if your PC becomes one they suddenly gain a bunch of powers that put them well ahead of the curve of everyone else. Not to mention some serious weaknesses that the others in your group may not like having to deal with. D&D is a collaborative game. Time to collarborate.
Gah. I looked for that, twice even, before I posted. And I missed it because it actually says "AL: Any evil," and under the Creating a Vampire template instead of under the creature itself where I expected it. *sigh*
Well under "Creating a Vampire" it does say "Alignment: Any Evil"I have a third level Gnome Necromancy. He wants to become vampire/ undead, but I don't want to play him as Evil. How do I do that?Work with your DM, and the rest of your group. There's actually nothing in the beastiary that states that vampires must be evil. However, if your PC becomes one they suddenly gain a bunch of powers that put them well ahead of the curve of everyone else. Not to mention some serious weaknesses that the others in your group may not like having to deal with. D&D is a collaborative game. Time to collarborate.
Fluff-wise, find a good story element to keep your alignment and personality after being vamped...
Mechanics-wise, you may treat the CR modifier as an ECL modifier. You would have to "pay" for those levels implied by the vampire benefits before gaining class levels again.Also, think of knocking off some abilities which might be improper (like the capacity of creating spawn)... You would be overpowered for a few levels, before the other PCs catch up with you, if I were your DM I would make sure that you got extra trouble as an individual (like your vampiric sire trying to destroy you or seduce you finally to the side of evil; vampire hunters going after you, etc)
If you have access to Heroes of Horror, I would also give you some Corruption and apply Corruption rules to you... staying away from the dark while being a monster should not be easy after all...
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I have a third level Gnome Necromancy. He wants to become vampire/ undead, but I don't want to play him as Evil. How do I do that?
You have to talk to the DM, and even if you are not evil you still need a way to obtain humanoid blood. One issue with being vampire is the power boost they receive.
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Ooh, or you could add a vampire prestige class. Prerequisite: You must have been infected by a vampire's bite.
That way, if he wants broken vampire abilities, he needs to take levels in "being a vampire". If he just wants to be undead, and not get any neato magic effects from it, then he gets bit by a vampire and Presto! He's undead-ish.
I don't know about the "vampire" part, but the D&D wiki site provides a home brew template "Undead", which a +1 level adjustment template that simply changes the character's type to "Undead", with all of the attendant bonuses and penalties. This would be a bit odd ( a Gnome necro? Really?) but not terribly unbalancing to a well run campaign. As I remember, the "Vampire" template is a +8 level adjustment, so as a long-time DM, I would poo-poo the idea before you even got the whole sentence out of your mouth, but that's just me.
Oh, I like this idea. I never wanted to necessarily be a vampire as just a necro who is reallyinto his craft and seking the ability to be undead. If i already have the pc would i just apply this tmplate and make the +1 LA a negative one to my level... so level 1 undead level 2 and 3 Gnome Wizard. So 1undead/2Wiz
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If your DM is OK with using 3.5e stuff in your game, there's a Vampire Spawn monster class in Libris Mortis that allows you to level into being a vampire spawn.
Since Pathfinder RPG classes are a bit stronger than 3.5e, perhaps Vampire could be adapted into a monster class too, so you can gain levels and level into being a vampire instead. Actually, I think WotC may have posted a 3.5e vampire class on their website back in the 3.5e days. Combine a few levels (to reflect PRPG gaining more benefits per level) and you'd be ready to roll. (All this would be up to your DM though.)
As for the alignment restriction, unless it gives you the Evil subtype, I'd say it's still flexible enough for the occasional exception.
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Along with the Undead Template idea, I wonder if anyone has worked up a couple of "Vampire Transition Templates", going from initial infection to full-blown vamp.
Perhaps a PC that manages to pull out the heroic willpower can get stuck in one of the middle or initial stages, locked in until he gives in to temptation. If he ever completely loses it, he goes full vamp and then completely loses his willpower over his thirst, becoming an NPC.
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I think but not 100% sure that WotC had an article on how to break the different vampire abilities out over levels. I know they did it for aasimar, tiefling and drow so someone could start out playing them as lvl 1 characters then as they went, raise their race or class levels as they wished.
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I think but not 100% sure that WotC had an article on how to break the different vampire abilities out over levels. I know they did it for aasimar, tiefling and drow so someone could start out playing them as lvl 1 characters then as they went, raise their race or class levels as they wished.
You can find it HERE.
Oh, look WHO wrote it back then :D ...
How can a non evil character want to become undead?
This makes no sense to me, its the thirst for power and immortality that drives people to want to become undead.
Also, after becoming this monster, it kind of changes your outlook on the lives of people. They literally become your food.
On another note, there are RPGs written for playing vampires. Just find the right groups of people.
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Why in the world you would want to become a Vampire is beyond me. You do realize that you would only be of use to the rest of the group at night. You'd essentially be removing yourself from half the game. Even if you manage to circumvent the whole "evil alignment" thing.
Yeah, and don't forget you can't cross running water, or sneak into places uninvited, or look at mirrors, etc, etc, etc.
Really, vampire PCs are absolutely horrible in every way. They're disruptive because of their crazy abilities, and they're disruptive because of their crazy weaknesses.
Kinda sad. =P
That's why my Paladin is becoming a Lich. <3 Liches. :)
That's why my Paladin is becoming a Lich. <3 Liches. :)
Send again?
A "Lawful Good" paladin becoming a Lich seems a bit much to swallow.
Baelnorn?
Lots of nice vampire stuff/class/powers here.
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Gah. I looked for that, twice even, before I posted. And I missed it because it actually says "AL: Any evil," and under the Creating a Vampire template instead of under the creature itself where I expected it. *sigh*Well under "Creating a Vampire" it does say "Alignment: Any Evil"I have a third level Gnome Necromancy. He wants to become vampire/ undead, but I don't want to play him as Evil. How do I do that?Work with your DM, and the rest of your group. There's actually nothing in the beastiary that states that vampires must be evil. However, if your PC becomes one they suddenly gain a bunch of powers that put them well ahead of the curve of everyone else. Not to mention some serious weaknesses that the others in your group may not like having to deal with. D&D is a collaborative game. Time to collarborate.
I just wanted to reinforce what Howie23 said. Talk to your DM, Talk to the other players a bout your idea. It can be excellent opportunity to write a creative back story and to work with some interesting esoteric game mechanics.
Also as someone else mentioned, be careful about the increased power your character will have compared to the others. I think someone mentioned there was some good materiel in the 3.5 Liber Mortis.
As it was said earlier talk to the other players.
There are some old grognards like myself, who think the only good vampire, is the one that has been staked, beheaded after its mouth has been stuffed with holy wafers ( or is it now anointed with holy water? I guess I would do both just to be thorough) and left out in the sunlight. Then its dwelling place needs a liberal application of Flame strike/ Move earth/ Fire ball spells, to ensure that its destroyed as well.
We see them as blood sucking parasites best eradicated from our Pathfinder games.
I for one do not see them as the “angsty forlorn” characters of Ann Rice’s “Interview with a vampire” book, nor the “teenage angsty” characters of that Twilight saga. I’m not sure what to make of the “True Blood” TV series since I am not terribly interested in “vampire rights” . I have never seen the TV series, nor am I interested in seeing the blood sucking parasites humanized. I will admit I did like the “Blade” series with Wesley Snipes.
Some of us are terribly prejudiced against vampires ( and Drow for that matter), and when we hear about them we begin breaking wooden chairs, sharpening tent pegs ( which I think are usually wooden) and breaking the metal tips off of our arrows and sharpening them, not to mention buying out the local apothecary of garlic, and temple of holy water.
What can I say? I wear a T-shrit that says “ I am not a geek, I am a 12 level Paladin”
Oh my I have gone on quite a rant. I guess my point is talk to the DM and the other players at the table. You might find the other players open to and like the idea, or you might find a grumpy gorgnard like myself who doesn’t want to be bothered to humanize the blood sucking vampires and prefers his monsters as monsters.
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That's why my Paladin is becoming a Lich. <3 Liches. :)Send again?
A "Lawful Good" paladin becoming a Lich seems a bit much to swallow.
Baelnorn?
Umbral is correct. Not all liches are evil. In fact, not all undead are evil. In this case, she'll become a lich sometime around level 15 (when her Paladin caster levels are high enough). For the record, this is also a Paladin of a Lawful Neutral goddess of Death and Magic.
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Both the Bone Creature and Corpse Creature are in the Book of Vile Darkness, and reasonably appropriate for low powered undead. I've got a Cleric in Age of Worms (set in Eberron) that is a Karnathi going to become a Corpse Creature. I think it's appropriate and reasonable in power, and my DM agrees. In this case, culturally he views it as making the ultimate sacrifice for the greater good, so I think you can have a non-evil character willing to become undead.
Under the Creature types & Subtypes page on d20pfsrd various undead traits are listed the entry on undead ends with "Five things almost everyone knows about undead" The third entry says this "Undead are invariably evil, as are the means to create such beings". Now non evil characters may be willing to come undead for various reasons but undead themselves are evil.
I would say all Liches are evil, but that is just me.
Just make sure everyone at your table has fun including your DM.
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Guys. Guys.
We're all missing the obvious. He mostly wanted "undead" and "vampire" sounded good.
Juju Zombie is nearly perfect.
It can be cast by an 11th level creature for you and, if you go Juju oracle with the Spirit Vessel's ability, you can be any alignment at all, so long as you find the correct oracle. While the text was "removed" for really silly reasons (and in bad-faith as well, I might add), it was officially printed in an official Paizo product, and I'd highly recommend it. (Please read the side-bar.)
Non-evil undead are a hot-button issue for some 'round here. You're going to find lots of opposition on that front.
My recommendation is to ignore it.
The main issue you need to be aware of is the power difference between yourself and your allies after your transformation. One method of 'balancing' your abilities with those of your allies is voluntarily accepting a lower share of magic loot and treasure, or turning some of what would only go to you in for the sake of your allies.
Be careful about doing this too much, but it's one way of balancing your benefits. With a nice jar of unguent of timelessness applied by unseen servants everywhere within and without, you've got quite a great set up for extremely long-lasting "life-like" appearance for an almost vampire-like effect.
As a plus, it's vastly less expensive than lichdom, and you don't have to worry about your always-paralyze touch causing accidental problems!
But above all... talk to your GM. The most important thing is that you and your friends all enjoy the game together.
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What an appropriate thread to necro. Oh 2010. How we miss you.
I know I do!
Like crafting, I don't think Juju's Spirit Vessels ability is PFS-allowed. Hypothetically, though? Maybe. I'm not sure that the necessary spellcasting is considered available in PFS. The Juju Oracle is unnecessary: it's just a non-atonement way around the "undead gots to be evil" thing. But you'd need to look into it first - don't go in presuming it's possible.
undead are evil because in pathfinder's alignment good is pro-life, while evil is pro-death. thus, undead by existance are "evil" for all intents and purposes.
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Could you do this in PFS, or just normal pathfinder?
Not in PFS.
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undead are evil because in pathfinder's alignment good is pro-life, while evil is pro-death. thus, undead by existance are "evil" for all intents and purposes.
While undead are 99.9% evil (especially the non-intelligent ones), there are a few handful that may be of a different alignment per GM descretion—but they had better have a darned good backstory.
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undead are evil because in pathfinder's alignment good is pro-life, while evil is pro-death. thus, undead by existance are "evil" for all intents and purposes.
Mmmmmmmmmmmmmeh. That doesn't mesh at all with how living and undead things actually fit into their environment.
Living: I kill the stuffs to continue my own existence! Can't be done otherwise.
Undead: I may or may not kill things, based entirely on my own will or nature, which varies dramatically from individual to individual; oh, uh, but I'm definitely evil for some reason.
It's a bit jarring and can create a tonal dissonance.
Point is, undead are icky. I mean: ew, corpse. But that doesn't follow why they'd be evil. If they are not sentient, and aren't living blobs of alignment, having them have an alignment makes no sense. If they're sentient, they are the ones in full control of their alignment, just like the living.
I can see why a campaign setting would want them to always be evil. That's fine for that campaign setting. But to have it "baked in" as it is... not stomach, especially when the "lore" patches put in to justify it just end up making things stranger and more confusing.
Beyond that: why is an undead "pro-death"? That's like saying that a soldier is "pro-war". While some certainly some are, there are plenty of soldiers (all the sane ones) who would much rather have as little war as possible, thank you very much - instead, war is a real thing that is engaged with by necessity: it exists, so it needs to happen, whether the soldier in question wants it to or not.
There's a difference between a "use every part of the buffalo" (which a good necromancer and/or undead would hold) and "slaughter the buffalo for more fur" (which evil Necromancers and undead would hold).
ALSO, I'm bitter about the Spirit Vessel's "lore" retraction. It had such excellent lore to back it up, it is (figuratively) criminal to banish that from the setting. *shakes fist* ugh...
Could you do this in PFS, or just normal pathfinder?Not in PFS.
Cool thanks.
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undead are evil because in pathfinder's alignment good is pro-life, while evil is pro-death. thus, undead by existance are "evil" for all intents and purposes.Mmmmmmmmmmmmmeh. That doesn't mesh at all with how living and undead things actually fit into their environment.
Living: I kill the stuffs to continue my own existence! Can't be done otherwise.
Undead: I may or may not kill things, based entirely on my own will or nature, which varies dramatically from individual to individual; oh, uh, but I'm definitely evil for some reason.
It's a bit jarring and can create a tonal dissonance.
Point is, undead are icky. I mean: ew, corpse. But that doesn't follow why they'd be evil. If they are not sentient, and aren't living blobs of alignment, having them have an alignment makes no sense. If they're sentient, they are the ones in full control of their alignment, just like the living.
I can see why a campaign setting would want them to always be evil. That's fine for that campaign setting. But to have it "baked in" as it is... not stomach, especially when the "lore" patches put in to justify it just end up making things stranger and more confusing.
Well, take this as an example. One of my new favorite movies is All Cheerleaders Die. (Trailer here Warning... it's a horror movie trailer so may be NSFW, and as the school mascot is a bloodhound, they call the football players dogs and the cheerleaders... female dogs) In this movie the cheerleaders are kinda your stereotypical cheerleaders, which means they aren't paladins, but they aren't really evil either. Then they get killed. A witch brings them back to life and they are kind of vampire-zombies (they don't have sunlight issues but need to drink blood) They kill the witch's neighbor and on of them is like "Look at what we just did to Lena's neighbor..." and the way she says it isn't that she horrified, it's just surprise is all. Then the other cheerleader is like "I feel frickin' fantastic!" and she runs out the door. Then they go to school and start killing the football players.
That I think kind of illustrates it well. They're dead. Their souls, that part of us that makes us human, is gone. That little voice in their head that tells them that killing is not okay is gone.
That's why overall it makes sense for a general rule that undead are evil. They are soulless monsters that prey on the living.
Undead CAN be good, but they have to want to and they have to actively try not to do the bad things that are second nature to them. They don't have a conscience anymore to tell them this is bad. They are pretty much serial killers. Sure, there are serial killers that don't kill people and live a quiet simple life... until they do or they die themselves... and being undead, well death probably isn't coming for you any time soon, if ever.
Their souls, that part of us that makes us human, is gone. That little voice in their head that tells them that killing is not okay is gone.
Except, intelligent undead in pathfinder have souls - so this assertion is based on a false premise.
Text from magic jar:
(Undead creatures are powered by negative energy. Only sentient undead creatures have, or are, souls.)
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Yep. Undead having souls is actually one of the reasons Pharasma gets frowny-faced about them, being locked in place and not moving on and all that.
Blood of the Night presents some alternate rules for vampire PCs, some of which add balancing factors and potential drama like the Hunger rules. IIRC, it also comes out and says, yes, good vampires can exist. It's just really damn hard.
Like Tacticslion said upthread, some folks consider it Very Important that no one plays with the idea of non-evil undead. The best thing to do is focus on what you and your group enjoy and want out of the game, whether that includes or excludes non-evil undead.
Ultimately, that is the only thing that really matters here.