James,
my feedback on a couple points.
- I prefer full stat blocks for non-core material.
- I would happily give up one or two of the new monsters in each issue of Pathfinder to create more space for the main adventure. It sometimes feels like "monster bloat".
- I did like the set pieces, but bow to the will of the majority.
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All right, maybe I should explain my stance on APs, since I get in heat about it often.
APs aren't cheap for me. Overseas shipping, USD-to-my-really-funny-currency ratio, and now on the top of it VAT which will likely kill almost all my Paizo subs. I buy the APs from Paizo because of
a) free PDF
b) all my money goes to the company I respect (one of few I do respect).
c) Pathfinder Advantage, duh.
So once I spend my horribly far too much money on the AP, I want the best bang for the buck. I want a campaign adventure, I want support material and I want some monsters. What I do not want is stuff that takes up the place that could be used for them. That stuff includes:
a) fiction. Lost case here, as it seems like everybody loves it. At least, fiction does (sometimes) help in setting me in the mood, but that's about it.
b) set pieces. Gone with the wind.
c) pregens. On their way out, hopefully.
d) ads. OK, it's capitalism, I know, I understand.
e) reprints, in this case of open content rules available on Paizo's PRD or elsewhere (Hi Jeryst !)
Since it's my limited gaming buck we're talking about here, I am slightly hardcore about the subject. I don't mind issues that are design choices, art choices or SKR's wedding chapel choices.
But, every thing that takes away my gaming dollar on something I won't use gets me up, because if the AP's ever take a turn for worse, I will be a sad panda. You almost had me with Second Darkness, but luckily LoF bounced back on the track. Bang for the buck, that's what it's all about.
1.*)I prefer statblocks for non-core material ("plug and play" is a large factor for me when bying modules/APs )
2.) Unless the monster has an important function in the AP - I don't need it.
*Maybe add a note, " X can be replaced by a level 7 half-elf witch with elite array"?
Oh and thanks for the 10$ pdf of the rulebook everybody can afford one:)
To call people whiners for giving an honest (and openly solicited) opinion strikes me as a little off-putting. Just sayin'.I'm not sure who you're talking about, but I don't believe I ever called anyone a whiner. If I did, I shouldn't have, and I apologize.
I did indeed ask for opinions on this matter, and I value ALL of the feedback and opinions you all are giving me with the EXCEPTION of the posts that are antagonistic to other posters. I can do without those.
I believe it was in reference to this pair of posts by Sean K Reynolds, in particular the last line of the second post. I am not sure if I agree with the particular interpretation of that sentence (the post may have been have also be described as, "Example case where the reference mechanic was not a major omission. I believe it is an overstatement to call the adventure incomplete because of this. I am sorry if it seems I am calling people whiners."), but I can see how one would come to that conclusion.
Creative Director
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This may seem like an odd suggestion:
As a compromise on this issue would a DM's Guide pdf at the end of an AP's release run (much as the player's guide at the start) containing full stat block for the "non-core" items from the AP, solve the problem? I don't know if that would even be feasable but it might be an idea worth discussing.
1) Compiling a GM's guide like this would pile a not-insignificant amount of work on our editors and developers at a part of the AP cycle (the end of one, the start of another) when work is traditionally already pretty rough, so on that regard I'm hesitant to do this.
2) It's still a PDF. At that point, it's just as easy for someone to go to our PRD and just download the stats themselves—easier, in fact, since those stats are already up and online, whereas a "GM's Guide" might not be.
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Creative Director
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I believe it was in reference to this pair of posts by Sean K Reynolds, in particular the last line of the second post. I am not sure if I agree with the particular interpretation of that sentence (the post may have been have also be described as, "Example case where the reference mechanic was not a major omission. I believe it is an overstatement to call the adventure incomplete because of this. I am sorry if it seems I am calling people whiners."), but I can see how one would come to that conclusion.
Well... don't be afraid to call us out by name if you think we're being jerks, I guess is my point. We're grown-ups here at Paizo, but sometimes we get a bit too snarky with our responses. Even if that snark is sometimes justified. Doesn't excuse us from being called on the poor manners.
THAT SAID... everyone who posts on messageboards should always do so with their thick skin on. Because it's really REALLY difficult to convey subtleties via messageboard posts; emoticons are helpful, but even then it's probably best to assume that if a post sounds snarky to take the perceived snark with a few grains of salt.
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I would say as long as you post where thing X is from, book and page number and the URL to the PRD, give a line for a alternate monster. (yeah i know I already said this and this a more lines but less that a full stat block) then made sure the PRD was up to date and easy to print from.I'm not sure putting URLs into stat blocks is a good idea, actually. URLS tend to look pretty complex, with lots of abbreviations and weird symbols—I'd be afraid that'd make a stat block look overly complicated and distracting.
XP 4,800
hp 105 (Pathfinder RPG Bestiary 34; http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/behir.html#behir)Yeah... this looks kinda ugly... and it would pretty much enlarge every single stat block in the book, long or short, by 1 line. Which by the end of a typical adventure would probably add up to about xxx lines of text—that's about xxx a page.
Adding a URL to the stat block for reference is an interesting idea, but not one that's really feasible, as a result. Especially since it's faster to just search for the word "behir" at paizo.com than it is to type out that whole complicated URL in the first place.
I was more just talking adding just http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/
but now that I think about it. How about something like this. At the start of the book have a sidebar box, saying some monsters etc here are taken from bestiary 2, APG etc, you can find information about them for free at http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/
Just make sure it is a nice noticeable sideblock that people will see right away at the beginning of the adventure.
Then at the statblocks have something like
XP 4,800
hp
Further information can be found in the PRD
Alternative monster
Werebunny CR 8[/bigger]
XP 4,800
hp
Something like that. I know that is still using up space but less space than a full stat block. I am personally in favor of just adding the stuff, but I do understand the other peoples point of view. So trying to come up with something that will make everyone a little happy.
I am have been hesitant about having references to the Bestiary 2 and Advanced Player's Guide. Running Kingmaker, I have had some rolls on the random encounter table where I rolled for a monster that, while I owned the book that contained it, I didn't have a stat block at the table with me. I just shrugged and rolled again until I came up with something that I had on hand (or just pull something else out of the bestiaries I had on hand).
If it were an encounter in a dungeon, I probably would do the same thing. It might be more problematic depending on the number of monsters in the adventure that I don't have. I would be able to get away if it were just one monster out of ten, but I don't know what I would do if half the monsters said "See Bestiary 2."
Same thing for feats and spells. Just missing one in a stat block is something I should be fine with, but if I were missing a lot, then I would have a difficult time running that NPC.
I like the idea of having the "Replacement" options for the monsters, although the "1 HD" (and other replacements that have me remove or add hit dice) might be problematic as I might have to look up what base attack and saving throw progressions a that creature type has and such. I believe that I, in that case, would rather just pick a different monster with similar CR and put it into the encounter (even if it didn't fit as well into the adventure). At this point I would prefer to see them use simple templates and the added/removed abilities.
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Creative Director
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I like the idea of having the "Replacement" options for the monsters, although the "1 HD" (and other replacements that have me remove or add hit dice) might be problematic as I might have to look up what base attack and saving throw progressions a that creature type has and such. I believe that I, in that case, would rather just pick a different monster with similar CR and put it into the encounter (even if it didn't fit as well into the adventure). At this point I would prefer to see them use simple templates and the added/removed abilities.
The basic idea behind the "Replacement" monsters isn't to provide the GM with an instant handy solution. The fact is, we try hard to make our new monsters unique and unusual enough that they DON'T have obvious replacements. Take the aforementioned poltergeist—it's a very low CR incorporeal undead with a telekinesis attack. The closest thing in the core rules to this would be a ghost... but the minimum CR for a ghost to have a telekinesis ability by the rules would be CR 6—hardly appropriate for a relatively minor encounter in a 1st to 3rd level adventure. Simple templates can only go so far—especially since by this setup we'd be limited to the 5 or so we put into Bestiary.
But that doesn't mean you can't use the baseline monsters in the core rulebook to build a replacement.
By listing something like 1 HD assassin vine, we can more closely approximate the power level of the monster being replaced. It does mean the GM needs to do more work, since it more or less forces the GM to spend the time to stat that variant monster up anyway.
I personally would like to see the new rule books being utilized in the Adventure Paths.
One of the strongest things I thought Dungeon magazine did was push out material making the most use of the full game. While DnD products refused to take each other into consideration to a stupid degree (Deities and Demigods, ELH, BoVD), Dungeon was right there saying "hey, no one uses binders, but check this out, sucka! Bat lich binders!" \m/
And that made me look at the Tome of Poor Magic Mechanics. Essentially, I could count on Dungeon to bring the separate strands of DnD together for me.
So for Pathfinder to continue to provide me with use for the rulebooks that I already buy, I find that an ideal and beneficial thing.
Oh just thought of something, I am not sure how hard this would be to do, but... how about making the name of the monster a hyperlink. So if you click the monsters name it takes you to it's PRD page?
This isn't impossible, but it is yet another thing to do to prep the PDFs after a product goes to the printer and before the public gets access to it. Which means its one more thing that has to be double checked before release. And it breaks if we ever restructure our website (making sure paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd always works is easier than making sure every anchor on every page always works.) And if we link monsters, why not feats, spells, and classes? Which is way more work, but where is the line drawn?
Also, people with PDF readers and internet connections handy are already in the best shape here. It is the people without PDF collections or ready internet access at the game table that are most affected by shorthanding monsters.
Personally I love that Paizo includes non-core material in their adventures. In fact this was one of the things that always annoyed me with 3.5. I bought all these cool rulebooks but none of the adventures seemed to include any of the rules from these new books i had just bought.
That said, I think you should clearly mark your adventure paths and modules with what books might be required to run said product.
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Creative Director
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Personally I love that Paizo includes non-core material in their adventures. In fact this was one of the things that always annoyed me with 3.5. I bought all these cool rulebooks but none of the adventures seemed to include any of the rules from these new books i had just bought.
That said, I think you should clearly mark your adventure paths and modules with what books might be required to run said product.
Again, we do this already, on page 2.
Now, admittedly, the credits and legal page isn't one that most folks stop to look at... but at the same point, it IS a great place to put that information without disrupting the look and aesthetic of the product. I'm honestly not sure where else we'd put this information—putting it in the text of the adventure isn't great since that might imply that other articles might be self-contained which isn't always the case (needless to say that the adventures are already pretty tightly packed with information as it stands), and the forewords already have enough art and sidebar treatments that they can't really take much more clutter.
Putting the information on the back cover might be a good alternative... but at that point I start to worry if that might be giving TOO much emphasis to the situation. Honestly... I really don't think it's as bad as most folks think it will be, but if it turns out to be a big deal we'll consider more strongly moving the information of of page 2 and somewhere more visible... hopefully not in a way that makes things look uglier...
So not warning people they need other resources then just the core book to run a product is not a good idea? I am just dumbfounded at that statement honestly.
1) Compiling a GM's guide like this would pile a not-insignificant amount of work on our editors and developers at a part of the AP cycle (the end of one, the start of another) when work is traditionally already pretty rough, so on that regard I'm hesitant to do this.
2) It's still a PDF. At that point, it's just as easy for someone to go to our PRD and just download the stats themselves—easier, in fact, since those stats are already up and online, whereas a "GM's Guide" might not be.
Maybe this is a place where community intervention can make this easier. E.g. somebody posts a thread in the appropriate AP forum linking to each of the "non-core" items you might want to read or see or print to run the AP, so it's as painless as possible for someone to have a Carrion Crown (or whatever) PRD printing party and know they aren't going to be missing a monster on game day.
All you'd need to do is sticky the thread.
Obviously there are people that this still won't make happy but maybe it's a help for anyone on the fence.
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Creative Director
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So not warning people they need other resources then just the core book to run a product is not a good idea? I am just dumbfounded at that statement honestly.
That's not what I said at all.
I meant that putting that information on the back cover might make the back cover way too cluttered. We'd probably have to remove some content or redesign the cover or something. Covers are tricky business for a lot of reasons.
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1. This is my first post on these boards despite the fact that I've been reading (unfortunately not playing) Pathfinder materials since the release of the Core Rulebook.
2. I understand the position of those who want the complete stat blocks, to leave the "core" as all that is required to bring to a game.
3. The reason I would rather have the short stat blocks is simply that Paizo's "supplemental" material in the APG and Bestiary 2 is fantastic. I selfishly want them to use the new books as much as possible, and because of the space restraints understand why a four line entry wins out over a full page entry.
4. I've been fighting red dragons since I was nine years old; I don't want to loose my chance to fight a magma dragon because the editors decided they needed the extra space and a red dragon is "pretty close" to the magma dragon the editors want to use.
5. With the expansion of Golarion beyond the Innner Sea, into such places Tian Xia, references to rulebooks designed for those places are inevitable.
6. My guess is that 85% or more of the people who run Adventure Paths are going to have the required books. My guess is that of the remainder, another 10% has access to the internet and wouldn't mind pulling the materials.
7. In giving 95% of the potential buyers more value for our money, versus the loss of 5% who don't, I think Paizo is correct in providing the short stat blocks and extra adventure material.
8. I don't see why Paizo can't create an easy way to pull the extra material. If a short pdf is too much, why not a web page listing the supplemental materals; it only takes seconds to create a hyperlink. Instead of giving the generic link to the PRD, give a link to a page of links that reference the PRD.
9. On the credits page of each issue the Adventure Path, and perhaps as a side block on the first issue each Adventure Path's forward, list the web site: Paizo.com/supplementalstuff.
10. On the hypothetical page, Paizo.com/supplementalstuff, list with appropriate hyperlinks to the supplemental material:
AP#60 - King of the Mountain Top
pg. 10 magma dragon
pg. 10 Wall of Lava
pg. 26 APG feats: Arcane Combate, Dazing Spell
pg. 26 Ultimate Combat Feats: Smackdown, Improved Smackdown
(Depending on the situation, it may be appropriate to link to a specific feat, or just the page with all the, for example, AGP feats.)
11. Just giving the PRD link will become increasingly time-consuming for the players as more rulebooks comes out. Imagine a high level Eldritch Knight investigating the Jade Regent: is that feat from the Core Rulebook, APG, Ultimate Combat, Ultimate Magic, or the Tian Xia book?
13. In other words, a GM can look for and print out (or pull on his netbook/Ipad) a few items. However, if an Adventure Path pulls from non-core material in many spots from many sources, which will happen more over time, Paizo only needs to list the hyperlinks for the product, and the GM doesn't need to type in many different searches.
14. Even owning all the books, I would love to be able to pull up the Paizo web site, have a page with all the PRD non-core links, print out the ones I need, and only bring the core books to the game. Hopefully the minimal Paizo time investment (looking through the AP issue and creating a page with some hyperlinks) will add a significant value to the Adventure Path by saving GMs a lot of additional prep time.
PS - My second post will be shorter.
What about including stuff from the APG etc. but with a sidebar saying something like;
"This content can be found in the Advanced Players Guide pp. 45. or on the Pathfinder SRD website. Alternatively x from Core Rulebook may be substituted instead."
Personally I love that Paizo includes non-core material in their adventures. In fact this was one of the things that always annoyed me with 3.5. I bought all these cool rulebooks but none of the adventures seemed to include any of the rules from these new books i had just bought.
That said, I think you should clearly mark your adventure paths and modules with what books might be required to run said product.
Again, we do this already, on page 2.
Now, admittedly, the credits and legal page isn't one that most folks stop to look at... but at the same point, it IS a great place to put that information without disrupting the look and aesthetic of the product. I'm honestly not sure where else we'd put this information—putting it in the text of the adventure isn't great since that might imply that other articles might be self-contained which isn't always the case (needless to say that the adventures are already pretty tightly packed with information as it stands), and the forewords already have enough art and sidebar treatments that they can't really take much more clutter.
Putting the information on the back cover might be a good alternative... but at that point I start to worry if that might be giving TOO much emphasis to the situation. Honestly... I really don't think it's as bad as most folks think it will be, but if it turns out to be a big deal we'll consider more strongly moving the information of of page 2 and somewhere more visible... hopefully not in a way that makes things look uglier...
Sorry, what I meant was a listing on the back cover. This has been the norm for most RPG's I've seen, and frankly a couple of lines extra will hardly clutter the back-cover IMO.
What about including stuff from the APG etc. but with a sidebar saying something like;
"This content can be found in the Advanced Players Guide pp. 45. or on the Pathfinder SRD website. Alternatively x from Core Rulebook may be substituted instead."
They normally list where a monster can be found in the book and as for replacement monsters:
The fact is, we try hard to make our new monsters unique and unusual enough that they DON'T have obvious replacements.
I like the idea of having the "Replacement" options for the monsters, although the "1 HD" (and other replacements that have me remove or add hit dice) might be problematic as I might have to look up what base attack and saving throw progressions a that creature type has and such. I believe that I, in that case, would rather just pick a different monster with similar CR and put it into the encounter (even if it didn't fit as well into the adventure). At this point I would prefer to see them use simple templates and the added/removed abilities.The basic idea behind the "Replacement" monsters isn't to provide the GM with an instant handy solution. The fact is, we try hard to make our new monsters unique and unusual enough that they DON'T have obvious replacements. Take the aforementioned poltergeist—it's a very low CR incorporeal undead with a telekinesis attack. The closest thing in the core rules to this would be a ghost... but the minimum CR for a ghost to have a telekinesis ability by the rules would be CR 6—hardly appropriate for a relatively minor encounter in a 1st to 3rd level adventure. Simple templates can only go so far—especially since by this setup we'd be limited to the 5 or so we put into Bestiary.
But that doesn't mean you can't use the baseline monsters in the core rulebook to build a replacement.
By listing something like 1 HD assassin vine, we can more closely approximate the power level of the monster being replaced. It does mean the GM needs to do more work, since it more or less forces the GM to spend the time to stat that variant monster up anyway.
I think I understand that, in any case, I would rather have the Bestiary 2 for the actual poltergeist rather than working with a modified shadow. The case that I personally would be slightly concerned about would be that, I drive down to the shop where I hold my game and in the middle of the session I realize that I left my Bestiary 2 (or other book, printed page, replacement monster notes, etc) at home. Each thing that I need to take to my game is another risk for me that I might have taken it out of my bag during the week in order to look it over and I never put it back.
One encounter isn't enough of a reason for me to interrupt the game for at least twenty minutes, but if this were an important encounter, I would like to have something analogous to it rather than it being completely absent.
If the Xtabay replacement was:
Replacement assassin vine; 7 hp; -4 on all die rolls; no grab, constrict, or entangle special ability; add sleep 1/day as a spell-like ability (CL 1st)
It certainly isn't a Xtabay, but I should be able to run it for an encounter if all I had was the Core Rulebook, the Bestiary, and the adventure. From this I am not hoping for a perfect replacement, but just something I could use to fill the encounter if I really needed to.
I look at it like this:
We have internet at the house where the games are hosted.
Our usual DM has an iPhone with PDFs of the books on it and internet on it if he doesn't.
His wife also has an iPhone with internet.
Another of our players has an iPhone with internet.
I have the PDFs on my Kindle.
Another of our players has the PDFs on his Kindle.
My DM has the PDFs on his laptop.
I have the PDFs on my laptop.
He has most of the books.
I have most of the books.
I have two desktop computers and a printer in addition to the laptop I mentioned before.
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All of this adds up to likely having the references we need whenever we need them. Also, if we know we're going to be somewhere without internet and need something for the adventure that we can get online, we're willing to take the initiative and grab whatever we need beforehand.
Saying that these AP books are going to be "completely useless" is hyperbole. A DM usually has to come up with little things on the fly for his party. If someone spilled paint on one of the pages and obscured a full stat block, then he'd still have to improvise or if the players randomly decided to do some thieving that wasn't mentioned in the actual AP, that might require other NPCs that they run into.
Honestly, I think it will end up being fine. My issue with not having the stat blocks in there is purely one of convenience and has nothing to do with if I'll have the reference or not. Books are heavy after all.
[Edit: two typos]
I, on the other hand, am a single mother on a low budget, occasionally running games for her two teen-age school children. We have only the books I have bought for us, and the room containing our computer barely has enough room for all three of us to sit down, never mind play an rpg, so internet access during play is not an option. I do not have an i-phone or kindle (or a husband or partner with access to either) and neither do my children. My printer has an irritating habit of going wonky or running out of ink if I actually need to print something out. Buying the APG and bestiary II is a major outlay for me, and they are not at the top of my wish list (like APs for example so we've actually got adventures to play). Printing out the PDFs must also add up.
I don't know how typical your own access to technology is, but I would hate for my family to be pushed out of pathfinder rpg due to assumptions about mine. And, obviously, people with no internet access can't post their opinions here at all.
As for the actual question, while I can see wanting to use all the new stuff, there will (hopefully) always be newcomers, and for them (us?) it's essential that there are at least some APs or modules that only require the core rulebook and bestiary, and that they're easy to identify. It needs to be made very clear if they do not
To call people whiners for giving an honest (and openly solicited) opinion strikes me as a little off-putting. Just sayin'.I'm not sure who you're talking about, but I don't believe I ever called anyone a whiner. If I did, I shouldn't have, and I apologize.
I did indeed ask for opinions on this matter, and I value ALL of the feedback and opinions you all are giving me with the EXCEPTION of the posts that are antagonistic to other posters. I can do without those.
T'wasn't you, sir. Thanks for asking for our input - that's why me and my fellow gamers in NC love your products so much!
Additional thoughts:
- The CR system already provides a method for replacements.
- No need for URLs, just as quick to type the name in the search field and press return.
- The books-used are already presented in the product (see below for example). Those with no net will be able to check this out. Page through the book and see if it is an issue for them.
- Those with net, but no printer. When prepping the adventure, you will most likely only need to look at the referenced monster/feat/etc once or twice to get the idea, so you probably don't even need to print out the material. But if you do need to have the material available while playing you could have it up on the monitor. Alternatively you could try the public library for printing purposes.
This product makes use of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook, Pathfinder Roleplaying Game GameMastery Guide, Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Advanced Player's Guide, and Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Bestiary. These rules can be found online as part of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference
Document at paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd.
- For online buyers, perhaps the books-used blurb above could be presented in the product description.
Best.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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First, Ajaxis, diana, welcome to the boards.
As to points let me put my own input on both of yours, if I may.
Ajaxis
2. Thank you for noting the opposing view.
3. I understand this as well. The NPC blocks won't be *as confusing* which is why I think the substitution line is important and a good compromise.
4. Fight Blue dragons, we're meaner :P Seriously, for the APs, like James said, it's cross polination. That said having the character write up and then magama dragon (Adult magma dragon, HP 172, Bestiary 2, pg 100) listed with a line (or Adult red dragon, HP 172, Bestiary I pg XX) below it, is why I think it's the best compromise. (you'd want to bold the 'or' or you'd get someone who'd throw both monsters in). Yes it would be more work to stat out the red, but it's a compromise, not a make everyone happy solution. The substitution line also gives the GM an image of what the actual critter looks like. Else you go 'what the hell is an Xtaby?'
5. I'd hope a Tian Xia module would say up front you need to use <Pathfinder oriental adventures name placeholder> with this AP.
6. & 7. Not wanting to start edition wars, but isn't that one of the theories behind the move to 4.x for WotC?
8-11 If they have the hyperlinks, then they don't need to worry about the issue. The key isn't an 'ease of access' issue. It's a 'getting access at all) issue.
12-13. There's a great deal of difference between a player having a hodge podge of feats, and an AP. (If I'm understanding your point correctly) If I am playing an eldrich knight in a Tian Xia game, I'd better bloody well have at least all the books, if not prints of the information from online. If I'm the GM, having the material (either the books, or the pdfs/prints, or my own conversions) ready is essential. With the substitution line, I'm out some additional prep-work, but I can use the module.
14. That's a project that would eat a lot of time, and is pretty far down on the 'list of things to do' I think. Cost vs. Comfort and all that.
diane
Thank you for posting Diana, you made some points so far I have been unsuccessfully trying to make.
And welcome to the boards. Also welcome as well Ajaxis.
Hands out Rum
Welcome to the boards Ajaxis and Diana!
It is a fine line to walk, you want to use all of the new stuff you come out with, but you also don't want to require everyone to own every book. As an example think of all of the interesting books that WotC came out with for 3rd edition that were DOA because there was no forthcoming support (psionics, incarnum, epic, etc). I think the easiest thing to do would be to put in either a list in the front of the book that lists the monsters in the book that are not in the core books and something to replace them with that is core or put it with the stat block in the text.
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Creative Director
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But if you do a search for Behir, the Behir PRD page isn't the first returned element (it's the 2nd I know, but it does show that they aren't always going to be).
So? Anyone who knows how to do searches on the internet (and that's more or less "lesson one" of "Welcome to the Internet") knows how to handle searches to find what they're looking for. I don't see this as being a significant barrier to getting the information in the slightest.
And adding a list of monster links and other content links to each product page that links that content to the PRD is an interesting idea... but it's not something we'd have time to do, I am afraid.
Strikes me as a great project for a fan site, though, or barring that, a simple messageboard post in one of the GM Advice threads for each adventure. After all, one of the many reasons we decided to make the rules of the game so open was to enable all of the gamers of the world to HELP us make this game better.
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Creative Director
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It is a fine line to walk, you want to use all of the new stuff you come out with, but you also don't want to require everyone to own every book. As an example think of all of the interesting books that WotC came out with for 3rd edition that were DOA because there was no forthcoming support (psionics, incarnum, epic, etc). I think the easiest thing to do would be to put in either a list in the front of the book that lists the monsters in the book that are not in the core books and something to replace them with that is core or put it with the stat block in the text.
Honestly... I would LOVE it if everyone who played Pathfinder owned every book.
Never forget; selling books is a pretty core part of what we're here to do.
I'd rather sell books to folks because they WANT the books, of course, rather than because they feel like we're tricking/forcing them into buying the books. Making our products super cool and beautiful and fun and interesting is the best weapon we have to ensuring that folks buy the books because they want them.
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I, on the other hand, am a single mother on a low budget, occasionally running games for her two teen-age school children. We have only the books I have bought for us, and the room containing our computer barely has enough room for all three of us to sit down, never mind play an rpg, so internet access during play is not an option. I do not have an i-phone or kindle (or a husband or partner with access to either) and neither do my children. My printer has an...
Welcome to the boards, Diana. As a fresh voice to the conversation, what's your opinion on James' previously proposed solution:
One possible solution: when we present a monster from Bestairy 2 as a short stat block, we could drop in one additional line on the stat block that basically says: "Substitution" and then lists a monster to replace that monster with. In most cases, this would require a bit of GM prep work, since often such replacements would be to go with a rebuilt monster from the Bestiary with templates or adjustments to its Hit Dice. Examples of how this would look, using two monsters from "Haunting of Harrowstone" who get the short stat block treatment:
Spoiler:Poltergeist CR 2 XP 600
hp 16 (Pathfinder Bestiary 2[ 211)
Replacement 2 HD Shadow; no melee attack or strength damage; add telekinesis as an at will spell-like ability (CL 3rd)Xtabay CR 1/2
XP 200
hp 8 (Pathfinder Bestiary 2[ 289)
Replacement 1 HD assassin vine; no grab, constrict, or entangle special ability; add sleep 1/day as a spell-like ability (CL 1st)
It requires just a little extra work for the GM, but refrences an appropriate way to run these encounters with only the Core books while leaving the option of using other sources for those of us who have them.
It is a fine line to walk, you want to use all of the new stuff you come out with, but you also don't want to require everyone to own every book. As an example think of all of the interesting books that WotC came out with for 3rd edition that were DOA because there was no forthcoming support (psionics, incarnum, epic, etc). I think the easiest thing to do would be to put in either a list in the front of the book that lists the monsters in the book that are not in the core books and something to replace them with that is core or put it with the stat block in the text.Honestly... I would LOVE it if everyone who played Pathfinder owned every book.
Never forget; selling books is a pretty core part of what we're here to do.
I'd rather sell books to folks because they WANT the books, of course, rather than because they feel like we're tricking/forcing them into buying the books. Making our products super cool and beautiful and fun and interesting is the best weapon we have to ensuring that folks buy the books because they want them.
As someone who owns all of Paizo's products (at least in the RPG, Campaign Setting, Companions, and AP lines) I have no problem with using all of the information in those products. But I can see where Diana (welcome to the boards) and Seeker have a point as well. I look forward to seeing how it all works out.
For my part I can see the problem, but I think it is relatively minor. The non-core content is usually a small part of the APs and easy to replace on the fly. It is an inconvenience if you don't have the books, but I don't see that it makes the AP useless.
There is one issue, however, even when the statblocks are complete, and that is that it is sometimes hard to get a feel for a class or a monster that is unfamiliar. With monsters there is also how to get a mental image of how it looks and how to convey it to the players.
That said, I feel that the advantages of incorporating new material easily outweighs the disadvantages, and that Paizo is doing a good job at providing just enough information to make it useable. Just saying that it's not just about the statblocks.
Adding a URL to the stat block for reference is an interesting idea, but not one that's really feasible, as a result. Especially since it's faster to just search for the word "behir" at paizo.com than it is to type out that whole complicated URL in the first place.
But if you do a search for Behir, the Behir PRD page isn't the first returned element (it's the 2nd I know, but it does show that they aren't always going to be).
I'm ok with having new content in the APs, gives me new and interesting things to confound my players with.
I would like their to be an easy to access way to get to all of that content however, so that I don't have to use the search function on this website (a function I that find doesn't work very well most of the time I'm looking for stuff).
So could links be added for all the PRD content (outside of the 2 core books) on the product's product page. Either in a spoiler box or in a seperate tab (like you did for the FAQs for the core products) so that players that wonder onto those pages don't know exactly what's coming.
I assume that one of the first things that will be posted in the GM reference topics on this messageboard will be links to the relevant parts of the PRD, which would obviate the need for spoilers in the product pages.
stuff..Welcome to the boards, Diana. As a fresh voice to the conversation, what's your opinion on James' previously proposed solution:
One possible solution: when we present a monster from Bestairy 2 as a short stat block, we could drop in one additional line on the stat block that basically says: "Substitution" and then lists a monster to replace that monster with. In most cases, this would require a bit of GM prep work, since often such replacements would be to go with a rebuilt monster from the Bestiary with templates or adjustments to its Hit Dice. Examples of how this would look, using two monsters from "Haunting of Harrowstone" who get the short stat block treatment: ** spoiler omitted **It requires just a little extra work for the GM, but refrences an appropriate way to run these encounters with only the Core books while leaving the option of using other sources for those of us who have them.
(My first adventure into posting and am unaccountably nervous, so excuse errors (also too much coffee this morning)).
I think it best to describe a typical(?) gaming session. I consider myself new to Gm'ing, so I probably make all the typical mistakes.
1. No fixed timetable for play. They spend every other weekend with their dad and school evenings, homework has to come first. On free weekends or evenings someone doesn't feel up to it,or any number of
other things come up.
2. As a consequence, it's normally 'lets play DnD (sorry. old habits) this weekend, or tomorrow, or in an hour, or what ever. It would be ideal for me if I could say, 'right, let's play in half an hour'.
3. Consequently, I prep the games as best I can, for play at some future date, and have probably forgotten important points by the time I get to play (yeah, yeah, better prep and notes, I know).
4. Running still makes me nervous, at least when we start up. I lose notes, forget where things are in the books, can't find the books, 'cause they've sidled off and hid under the sofa, etc. The fewer bits of paper I have to shuffle the happier I am. I am geting much better at statting up the monsters on cards before hand,instead of flicking through the book) so in theory for me its no big deal to do that at the computer and applying the simple templates looks easy enough. Not so clear, though, if this is true for a complete beginning DM, like me a year ago, say.
5. I would say a reccommended easy alternative is absolutely essental [/] (for me at least) as I have little confidence in picking an appropriate CR for a substitution. I am very, very reluctant to accidentally inflict a TPK on my two young teenagers, especially when I then have to live with them. And they don't have a martial character. Which probably makes this all baloney, since I'll have to vet monsters for too high AC's HPs and damage anyway (TPK, here we come).
I have little concern about making other options available for others, as long as they are just that - [b] options. Having only got the core rule book and bestiary last month, and this being the first 'campaign' ever for my kids, I'm a long way from exhausting them. Which will be true for anybody starting out. (BTW, I played ADnD at Uni many, many moons ago, with an eccellent DM, whom I mentally thank nearly every session. I doubt i'd have managed at all otherwise).
So, I am hopelessly disorganised (but slowly getting better) and the closer I can get to just needing the AP and core books, the less stressful it becomes, and the more I am likely to offer to run it at short notice.
Why might this be a concern to Paizo? Get my kids hooked now and they're potential customers for life.
Personally ...
Again, we do this already, on page 2.
Now, ...
.
So far I have bought Paizo products from amazon uk. If it isn't in the amazon blurb I'm not going to see it. I haven't recently visited my nearest, very small games shops, but would expect Paizo stock to be limited at best.
So far I have bought Paizo products from amazon uk. If it isn't in the amazon blurb I'm not going to see it. I haven't recently visited my nearest, very small games shops, but would expect Paizo stock to be limited at best.
It's on page 2 of the product you buy -- which means you have it for everything you've bought already. I say this because I realize that we speak "american" over here so it's possible that we aren't quite being as clear as we could.
It's on page 2 of the product you buy -- which means you have it for everything you've bought already.
Well, the point being, if you're buying an adventure online you may not know what's necessary to run it before you get it.
It's on page 2 of the product you buy -- which means you have it for everything you've bought already.Well, the point being, if you're buying an adventure online you may not know what's necessary to run it before you get it.
Ah, now I see what you are saying -- that makes a completely different level of sense now.
Hm... I still feel that if you are buying online then you have online access enough to fine what you'll need. I do understand it's a bit harder than otherwise but it's still possible and fully capable with the online support available.
Ah, now I see what you are saying -- that makes a completely different level of sense now.
Hm... I still feel that if you are buying online then you have online access enough to fine what you'll need. I do understand it's a bit harder than otherwise but it's still possible and fully capable with the online support available.
Yeah, I think the most sensible thing to serve the people with those concerns might be to toss the information up on the Paizo store product pages for the AP volumes in question as it becomes relevant.
(Even if it turns out that for whatever international shipping reasons it doesn't make sense to buy direct for a given customer.)
It's on page 2 of the product you buy -- which means you have it for everything you've bought already.Well, the point being, if you're buying an adventure online you may not know what's necessary to run it before you get it.Ah, now I see what you are saying -- that makes a completely different level of sense now.
Hm... I still feel that if you are buying online then you have online access enough to fine what you'll need. I do understand it's a bit harder than otherwise but it's still possible and fully capable with the online support available.
Possibly picky of me, but I like to to be able to see at Amazon whether I will have everything, not trawl about the internet looking for confirmation. My thoughts are 'isn't that what the blurb is for?'.
Though I guess checking the Paizo product page isn't a big deal.I've probably ignored good modules (not pathfinder) because they don't have guidlines on expected party levels.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Silly Americancentric* question here.
Any of our UK contingent able to help Diana out? Sounds like she could use a bigger group. :-)
Diana, do your kids visit the boards? You talked about 'hooked for life' just wonder if they know of/can follow RPG superstar. (or even already entered)
Again, thank you for your input on the boards here, make yourself comfortable.
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