If I'm reading the Core Rulebook correctly, it appears that you can't select these Talents multiple times. If so, why not?
I had a tremendously fun idea for a gypsy rogue with lots of 0th and 1st-level magic talents, and it died on the vine as I read that.
You are reading it correctly. Each talent may only be taken once. As for why, I'm not really sure but I have never seen a problem with it.
Well, if you want a gypsy Rogue like that you could always ask your DM to make an exception or use a house-rule. Use Magic Device would be your friend for a build like that too. Or you could just take a few levels in Wizard and be an Arcane Trickster, but that doesn't really sound like what you are going for. Personally I would talk to the DM and tell him/her what concept you have. If you can sell the idea to the DM you may get to build that character regardless of the restriction.
There should also be a Greater and Superior Magic talent, which would grant 2nd level & 3rd level spells.
For non-PFS games you should just talk to your GM about your concept, I know I would allow it.
There should also be a Greater and Superior Magic talent, which would grant 2nd level & 3rd level spells.
For non-PFS games you should just talk to your GM about your concept, I know I would allow it.
I've experimented with those. They work well as advanced talents. I found 3rd level spells to be a bit much, though. Our group uses: Greater: +1 per day for minor and major and Superior: 2/day 2nd-lv
If you really want lots of 1st level spells for a Rogue, Wizard dip 1 lv. for 4 1st and 3 cantrips. Or do both dip and Major Magic.
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Actually I would do as 1 or 2 level dip of bard for that gypsy feel... maybe use a bard archetype or something. But that's just me... my varisian swashbuckler-like character in CotCT is taking a couple of levels in bard (archetype: arcane duelist for the Intimidate check as saves versus fear bardic music) himself and I'm going to get feather fall and expeditious retreat for all my swashbuckling needs.
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Actually I would do as 1 or 2 level dip of bard for that gypsy feel... maybe use a bard archetype or something. But that's just me... my varisian swashbuckler-like character in CotCT is taking a couple of levels in bard (archetype: arcane duelist for the Intimidate check as saves versus fear bardic music) himself and I'm going to get feather fall and expeditious retreat for all my swashbuckling needs.
+1
Actually I would do as 1 or 2 level dip of bard for that gypsy feel... maybe use a bard archetype or something. But that's just me...
I'm specifically avoiding Bard, mostly due to the amount of "baggage" the Bard comes with (namely Bardic Performance...ugh). My idea was to make a character with nothing but lots and lots of cantrips and 1st-level spell powers. The queen of versatile magic. :)
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Actually I would do as 1 or 2 level dip of bard for that gypsy feel... maybe use a bard archetype or something. But that's just me...I'm specifically avoiding Bard, mostly due to the amount of "baggage" the Bard comes with (namely Bardic Performance...ugh). My idea was to make a character with nothing but lots and lots of cantrips and 1st-level spell powers. The queen of versatile magic. :)
How about a dip into Sorcerer?
Vanish is a lovely 1st level spell for Rogues.
Actually I would do as 1 or 2 level dip of bard for that gypsy feel... maybe use a bard archetype or something. But that's just me...I'm specifically avoiding Bard, mostly due to the amount of "baggage" the Bard comes with (namely Bardic Performance...ugh). My idea was to make a character with nothing but lots and lots of cantrips and 1st-level spell powers. The queen of versatile magic. :)
Have you checked the Bard Archetypes in APG. Their "Bardic Performances" are quite varied. For example, The Street Performer and Sandman do not gain a single performance that affects their allies. You might fight an ability you like.
In my experience both of these talents are really just a talent tax for the dispelling sneak attack talent. I've yet to see a player take one for just it's own sake :-) If you wanted to burn a talent on taking it twice, I'd certainly let you. I've got retraining rules in my games (you can retrain a talent/feat/other selectable thing once each year during the winter---taking basically a month of downtime--if you're a fighter, you can do it twice each year with half the downtime, you can also do it an additional time per year, with the obligatory martial arts movie training montage, if you and/or your group get your clocks seriously cleaned in an engagement, with fighters again getting the double effect for said retraining). So, should you think better of this talent expenditure, you're not locked into it forever.It's not a problem with the talents if the player doesn't see the value of it. As a rogue, I'd love to have a ghost sound or dancing lights or other such trick handy while sneaking about. The tricks these talents lead up to are pretty darn good and setting prerequisites gives then an appropriate cost of focus.
Exactly. Not to mention Detect Magic for helping notice magical traps and arcane locks.
For major magic, shield is nice since a lot of rogues don't use shield builds, and grease and ventriloquism also great for sneakiness and being annoying (Grease is great for an acrobatic rogue because he'll likely make the checks to stand in a greased area while others will fail).
That said, to the OP: I agree with the other posters that suggest a dip into sorcerer or wizard (or even bard!). Think about it:
Say you have a 10th level character.
A 10th level Rogue who has only Minor Magic for talents will be able to cast five cantrips three times a day. And it will have taken him 10 levels to be able to cast a handful of cantrips, and he will have no other rogue talents.
A Rogue 9/Sorcerer 1 will know 4 cantrips that he can cast an unlimited number of times per day AND know TWO first level spells he can cast three times a day (not including Charisma bonuses) AND gain a cool bloodline power which, while of limited use for a 10th level character, will be a good backup ability AND will also have four rogue talents that will allow him to do awesome things like use Stealth or Acrobatics at normal speed, boost his sneak attack, get a combat feat, etc.
A Rogue 9/Wizard 1 will also of course have 4 rogue talents to boost his skills and sneak attack, AND know all cantrips, 3 of which he can cast an unlimited number of times per day. AND He will know as many first level spells per day as he can find to scribe into his spellbook--though be limited to casting 1 a day (not including Int bonus). He will get a familiar to spy with or a bonded item, and a school ability -- for example, a Rogue 9/Diviner 1 would be able to always act in a surprise round AND not be considered flat-footed since he has uncanny dodge.
Of course the character at that point either has to accept a cast failure chance, or take spells with no somatic components.
That said, to the OP: I agree with the other posters that suggest a dip into sorcerer or wizard (or even bard!). Think about it:
Say you have a 10th level character.
A 10th level Rogue who has only Minor Magic for talents will be able to cast five cantrips three times a day. And it will have taken him 10 levels to be able to cast a handful of cantrips, and he will have no other rogue talents.
A Rogue 9/Sorcerer 1 will know 4 cantrips that he can cast an...
Most rogues are lightly armored anyway, so chance of spell failure is going to remain low. Eventually he can get a mithril shirt which will make him a decently armored rogue with no ACP and only a 10% chance of failure. I'd take those odds.
Or take a Bard level or two instead, and the spell failure chance goes away. Which since all he wants is a bunch of cantrips and 1st level spells that works too. Plus also he keeps far more skill points that way. Also, a rogue with a dip in bard works as a good buildup to Shadowdancer.
There's also the cost of breaking your rogue progression.
Given that that OP's goal is to be able to cast a bunch of cantrips as a rogue, bumping down your rogue progression by 1 is MUCH less of a sacrifice than giving up ALL of your rogue talents just to take minor magic over and over again.
It really comes down as to how much magic you really need for the character. the talents in addition to UMD are a great choice for a Fahrd the Grey Mouser type of character, a rogue who's intrigued by magic but with no real talent of casting it reliably.
Sounds like the OP's got a very specific concept in mind; just trying to find the most efficient way of reflecting it.
The arcane duelist bardic alternate stuff in the APG is very nice.
If you want to avoid bardic performance you can do that too- you can just channel it all into your weapon to make it better rather than singing/playing/all that rot.
Gives you full bardic spell casting and some very nice melee abilities.
-S
Given that that OP's goal is to be able to cast a bunch of cantrips as a rogue, bumping down your rogue progression by 1 is MUCH less of a sacrifice than giving up ALL of your rogue talents just to take minor magic over and over again.
Actually, no. My goal is to have a couple of cantrip powers...and then lots and lots and lots of 1st-level spell powers! Imagine being able to cast 20 1st-level spells per day with 10 different spells on your list! ^_^
This would create a character with little overall power but amazing versatility. A spell for every occasion, as it were.
Given that that OP's goal is to be able to cast a bunch of cantrips as a rogue, bumping down your rogue progression by 1 is MUCH less of a sacrifice than giving up ALL of your rogue talents just to take minor magic over and over again.Actually, no. My goal is to have a couple of cantrip powers...and then lots and lots and lots of 1st-level spell powers! Imagine being able to cast 20 1st-level spells per day with 10 different spells on your list! ^_^
This would create a character with little overall power but amazing versatility. A spell for every occasion, as it were.
Let me make sure I get this right: Even a Rogue 20 who has ONLY taken minor and major magic repeatedly would have 1 cantrip that you could cast three times a day and 9 1st level spells each castable twice a day. It takes you 20 levels to get 10 spells, 9 of which can only be cast twice? And at the cost of 10 other versatile Rogue Talents. Only two grease spells, two magic missles, two shields, etc. aren't actually going to go very far for a 20th level character.
Okay, I guess if you took Extra Talent from the APG you could have more--but then that's all your talents AND feats going to cantrips and first level spells.
I suppose it would be amusing, but to be honest I have difficulty seeing it be a viable character in terms of being fun to play, let alone effective---particularly at higher levels, where your spells would likely be dispelled easily by enemy spellcasters. And especially since you'd only be gaining one spell every other level. You wouldn't achieve the kind of versatility you wanted until you were several levels in and at the sacrifice of, in my humble opinion, far too much. It's interesting in theory, but I have to wonder if in practice--even if it were actually allowable--it would be any fun in the long run.
What could this build accomplish that a rogue with a small dip into an arcane spellcasting class would not? (Especially a dip into wizard, who could technically know every spell even if be limited in how many to prepare a day?). Let alone, say, an arcane trickster build, etc.
Let me make sure I get this right: Even a Rogue 20 who has ONLY taken minor and major magic repeatedly would have 1 cantrip that you could cast three times a day and 9 1st level spells each castable twice a day. It takes you 20 levels to get 10 spells, 9 of which can only be cast twice? And at the cost of 10 other versatile Rogue Talents. Only two grease spells, two magic missles, two shields, etc. aren't actually going to go very far for a 20th level character.
Okay, I guess if you took Extra Talent from the APG you could have more--but then that's all your talents AND feats going to cantrips and first level spells.
Yep, that's the idea. I want to take Extra Talent for every feat, so that I'd get a Rogue Talent at every level. Honestly, I think it would be a total blast to play. I tend to care a lot more about fun than I do about "power level". :)
Why don't you try the Witch class? That sounds perfect for a (Varisian) gypsy. Combine it with a few levels of rogue, maybe?
Ugh...I like the Witch's spell list and to some extent their Hexes...but I hate familiars, I hate prepared spellcasting, and I think having a familiar as your spellbook is honestly a bit stupid.
I'm heavily critical of the APG classes. The Inquisitor, Oracle and Summoner are the only ones I really found useful or good. The Witch is oddly designed and railroaded into a hardcore support role, The Alchemist is interesting but functions awkwardly in play, and don't even get me started on the Cavalier.
I have no idea why the Cavalier is in that book, or how it even made it past playtesting. Easily the most useless class ever.
I have no idea why the Cavalier is in that book, or how it even made it past playtesting. Easily the most useless class ever.
Might I suggest another look at the cavalier? This time not as a "I'm a fighter(or paladin) with a different name" but as a tactical battlefield control/buffer?
This is a build I like:
Human
Fighter 2/ Cavalier 2/fighter 1/ Cavalier x
Order of the dragon
Str 16 Dex 14 Con 12, Int 13, Wis 14 Cha 10
Feats: Combat Expertise, combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Gang Up, Bodyguard, Outflank, Boon Companion, Lunge, Swift Aid, Mounted Combat, Ride by Attack, Spirited Charge, Eclectic(cavalier), Paired Opportunist, Improved Trip, Greater Trip
Favored Class bonuses: Fighter -- Human Option (CMD boost vs Grapple/Trip)
Cavalier -- Human Option (banner boost)
With Bodyguard you can "Aid other" on defense with your chances for AoO's instead of a standard action -- due to the order of the dragon second level ability you'll provide a +3 bonus instead of +2 (at later levels you'll provide a +4 or +5). That's a 3 point increase to your allies AC with no action on your behalf (and CMD), in addition so long as two of your allies threaten a target you count as flanking it which (with outflank which you can grant your allies use of outflank with a move action) provides you with a +4 bonus to hit... if you critical your allies get to take AoO's on the target. You don't miss the move action if you are on your mount at lower levels since you can't really full attack until level 6 anyways (Besides taking a move to grant your allies a better chance to hit and chances for extra attacks if someone crits is just a good idea). With lunge your threatening area increases so you are able to flank more often and use your AoO's more often. Your mount should take feats similiar to your own -- (Bodyguard, swift aid, Lunge, and combat patrol in addition to nimble moves and acrobatic step to help clean up charge lines). If your mount combat patrols then you still have your actions and you and your mount can move to increase allies' AC with your mount's movement (using AoO attempts to do so). Your grappling and trip defenses are absolutely amazing (+8 due to the fighter favored class option). At later levels you can charge into position to deal great damage and set yourself up as an anchor point for the rest of your team. I would suggest that either the basic fighter or the weapon master archtype would be your best choices but the phalanx fighter is a strong choice as well (when you are on your own feet having a shield and a polearm is really nice). Your HP won't be the best in the world but you can provide your allies with even more choices once you hit cavalier level 8 with your order ability (heck you can grant movement to your allies as a standard action that they can use as immediate actions -- including your mount). The trip feats provide means to use those AoO's when not helping your allies instead and lock the field down even more around you. Lunge and a reach weapon provide a 15' threatened area with your mount threatening right around you. If you don't like paired opportunist you can instead take swap places to allow your team to switch out quickly in the middle of a round without wasting a lot of actions or breaking up full attacks (one steps up full attacks in a narrow space then the next moves up and moves the first guy back before full attacking himself).
The witch is a great support character -- but that is hardly all it can do -- it makes an excellent eldritch knight (especially with the correct patron) and depending on hex and patron choices can be an excellent blaster, or garuanteed SoD deliever. The witch has several great battlefield control choices AND the fallback of summon monster.
I would suggest looking up some of the old familiar threads around this forum -- I know I and several others have pointed out many ways in which familiars can be of great use without endangering them too greatly.
With that said however -- I also realise that not everything is for everyone -- I'm not fond of playing the divine casters, and really don't like the oracle when looked at after the sorcerer (I feel the oracle takes the sorcerer out back behind the tool shed even more so than the cleric does to the wizard when it comes to general power level), and the summoner's spell list leaves a bad taste in my mouth especially compared to the craptastic bard spell list (the inquisitor spell list isn't bad IMO, and I don't mind the Alchemist's 'spell list' *for lack of a better term* either).
Yep, that's the idea. I want to take Extra Talent for every feat, so that I'd get a Rogue Talent at every level. Honestly, I think it would be a total blast to play. I tend to care a lot more about fun than I do about "power level". :)Let me make sure I get this right: Even a Rogue 20 who has ONLY taken minor and major magic repeatedly would have 1 cantrip that you could cast three times a day and 9 1st level spells each castable twice a day. It takes you 20 levels to get 10 spells, 9 of which can only be cast twice? And at the cost of 10 other versatile Rogue Talents. Only two grease spells, two magic missles, two shields, etc. aren't actually going to go very far for a 20th level character.
Okay, I guess if you took Extra Talent from the APG you could have more--but then that's all your talents AND feats going to cantrips and first level spells.
"Power level" isn't the real concern. The main concern is that I'm not sure you realize how long you'd wait to get new spells---maybe your GM levels you really fast, I don't know. But it would take levels and levels for you--possibly months and years in real time depending on how often you play--to achieve the versatility you seem to be aiming for going this particular route.
Now, if you're starting at a very high level, that may be a different issue.
Now if it's what you want and your GM allows it, go for it! I hope it works out.
The only thing I was trying to say was that IMO there are much faster ways to achieve the rough equivalent of what you want to do, which don't deprive you of also fleshing out your character in other ways---and IMHO, potentially far less frustrating---which require no houseruling.
No.
Extra rogue talent depends on and adds to the rogue talent class feature. No.
An alternative within CRB would be a level of wizard / sorcerer. This way you gain multiple cantrips unlimited times per day, and as long as an attack roll is involved, they scale with sneak attack. On top of that you gain a few uses of (potentially different) 1st-level spells as well as the first school / bloodline power. +2 on Will saves doesn't hurt either.
It comes with a few drawbacks, like arcane spell failure unless you rely on mage armor / bracers of armor, slightly slowed rogue progression and slightly reduced HP and BAB. But you keep all your feats and rogue talents, and the spells and powers are easily worth it, IMO.
If you're going for a dip I'd probably recommend Bard so you can wear armour (or Magus if you're going outside the CRB). Depends on what spells you're looking for, but Bard should synergise pretty well with Rogue.
Actually Cleric/Druid could work as well.
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I have a question as I can not seem to find a ruling, and it pertains to this post. Within the confines of the rules in the core rule book, would I be able to take extra rogue talent to get another usage of minor/major magic? I am aware the ruling on rogue talent is they cant be taken twice, but I do not know if that is with the rogue talent class feature. If I say, use a feat to get it again, would I be able to?
If you use traits (not in the CRB, I know), I can suggest this one:
Wealthy Dabbler
Source Inner Sea Primer pg. 21, Taldor, Echoes of Glory pg. 13
Category Region
Requirement(s) Taldor
You study magic at one of Taldor’s many social clubs, wowing your friends with your expertise in the simplest of magical exploits. Select two non-harmful arcane cantrips. You can cast these two cantrips once per day each (caster level 1st). If you have levels in a class that can cast these cantrips, your caster level for these cantrips is equal to that class level.
It requires you to be from Taldor and the CL is only 1, but the cost is relatively minor; a single trait.
[url=https://aonprd.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Wealthy%20Dabbler]Wealthy Dabbler