Hey Folks, Took alot of your comments under advisement. My Anydice calculations were off, and I now realize that the TWF/five attacks doesnt really get you any more damage with this build since with PA and TWF, it rarely will hit on the offhand weapon spike attacks.
My current build is going for 2handed/bite damage, and utilizing Dreadful Carnage. Since our campaign will end at around level 12 I opted against a shield master TWF build because I'll likely never get the feats that make it work.
I will be using orc bonuses, trait bonuses, and the Rogue "Thug" APG variant to maximize intimidate effectiveness. If I ever get to +11BAB, Dreadful carnage gets you a free Dazzling Display after downing an enemy.
Race: Half-Orc (Toothy Alternate Trait)
Traits:
Brute (Half-Orc): +2 intimidate
Heirloom Weapon (Greatsword): "Masterwork weapon on creation,+1 attack with this specific weapon"
Str: 16
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 8
CL1: Fighter 1 - Furious Focus, Power Attack
CL2: Rogue 1
CL3: Rogue 2: Intimidating Prowess, Talent: Befuddling Attack (or bleed)
CL4: Rogue 3:
CL5: Rogue 4: Weapon Training (Greatsword),Dazzling Display
CL6: Fighter 2: Cornugon Smash
At CL7 Im considering Fighter3 to get shatter defences at 7.
Later on I will be going for Deadly Stroke, and Dreadful Carnage
Not sure the best way to fill this out, want to go with mostly rogue, no more than fighter3. Thoughts?
We're starting at CL5, so I dont have it totally set after CL5
I would hit fighter 3 instead of rogue 4 at this point.
Fighter will give you:
+1 ref +1 will
Medium armor movement without movement penalty (you don't need a mithral breastplate so why buy one?).
It would give you shatter defense (a good choice) and a feat that you can grab either Iron will (great choice) or skill focus(intimidate) with.
I would hit fighter 3 instead of rogue 4 at this point.
Fighter will give you:
+1 ref +1 will
Medium armor movement without movement penalty (you don't need a mithral breastplate so why buy one?).It would give you shatter defense (a good choice) and a feat that you can grab either Iron will (great choice) or skill focus(intimidate) with.
You think it would be best to swap out CL5 for rogue? I'm kinda on the fence about armor training, I don't know if I am ever going to go for a 4th level of fighter, except if im starving for a feat or i need more BAB.
My item list is as follows:
+1 Full Plate
+1 str item (DM ok'd this)
+5 Intimidate Item (2500gp per magic item section)
Ring of Protection +1
Masterwork (Heirloom) Cold Iron Greatsword
Wand of Shield (UMD or give to caster)
Wand of CLW (UMD or give to cleric to help inbetween fights)
MW Thieves tools
MW Manacles
random other stuff
I was thinking of maybe some other full BAB class to dip for the AB, as I am right now sitting at 12 dex and the armor training might not do much for me. I guess the full movement in mithril will be nicer later
I also had the (maybe incorrect) idea of dipping ranger1 for some AB, and favored enemy: evil outsider, plus its +2 ref and fort which would kinda be nice
Shield has a range of "personal" and the caster can't use it on you.
Wand of Shield (UMD or give to caster)
...Crap :)
UMD only I guess
I would hit fighter 3 instead of rogue 4 at this point.
Fighter will give you:
+1 ref +1 will
Medium armor movement without movement penalty (you don't need a mithral breastplate so why buy one?).It would give you shatter defense (a good choice) and a feat that you can grab either Iron will (great choice) or skill focus(intimidate) with.
You think it would be best to swap out CL5 for rogue? I'm kinda on the fence about armor training, I don't know if I am ever going to go for a 4th level of fighter, except if im starving for a feat or i need more BAB.
My item list is as follows:
+1 Full Plate
+1 str item (DM ok'd this)
+5 Intimidate Item (2500gp per magic item section)
Ring of Protection +1
Masterwork (Heirloom) Cold Iron Greatsword
Wand of Shield (UMD or give to caster)
Wand of CLW (UMD or give to cleric to help inbetween fights)
MW Thieves tools
MW Manacles
random other stuffI was thinking of maybe some other full BAB class to dip for the AB, as I am right now sitting at 12 dex and the armor training might not do much for me. I guess the full movement in mithril will be nicer later
I also had the (maybe incorrect) idea of dipping ranger1 for some AB, and favored enemy: evil outsider, plus its +2 ref and fort which would kinda be nice
I would suggest thinking about mithral full plate and the level 3 armor training.
30 foot movement in full plate with a -3(?) ACP.
ranger 2 for twfing isn't bad.
Well, if you are gonna go for Fighter 3, you might as well get that 4th level of fighter to grab Weapon Spec (Greatsword). And than this is pushing it, but Fighter 5 gives you Weapon Training.
Note: Items you might be interested in that no one mentioned so far:
- Sash of War Champion(4k; APG, can't remember page): you count your fighter level as 4 levels higher for purposes of Armor Training and Bravery.
-Gloves of Dueling(15k; APG, pg 305): If you've got weapon training class feature and using an appropriate weapon, weapon training bonus increases by +2.
Now thinking about it, being how you are going to play till level 12 - meaning with 3 levels of fighter you already lost your chance of getting Crippling Strike. Question is this than:
Practically by going 5 levels of fighter you net +4 (+1 higher BAB, +3 Weapon Training) to hit, +5 to damage(+2 Weapon Spec, +3 Weapon Training) and a feat. For 1d6 sneak attack, improved uncanny dodge, one rogue talent and 12 skill points - fair trade, but what do you prefer ?
Imho, you should visualize your character - as in, is it a fighter that know where to hit, or is it a rogue that went through some fighter training. Mostly cause if you choose rogue route, and this is just my very biased opinion (can't stress how biased i am on this enough) - full plate is hands down silly.
I dont really see him as a 'rogue who went through some fighter training' More like a bounty hunter type. The party has a ranger who wears light armor and has good dex/stealth, so I discussed and will not even be taking stealth this go-around.
I'll definately look into those items. I basically just want to be able to dish out the most melee offense as possible/debuff enemies around me. I think the Thug APG variant works pretty well with this build, but I realize it could probably be better done with a caster or something. The party does need me to find/disable traps, so I'm most likely going to be mixing rogue in there no matter what.
My original build had Greatsword/bite/armor spikes for 5 attacks, and that didnt work out as well DPR wise when I crunched the numbers at least in the lower levels due to its really low AB. However I wonder if I was fighter2-3/ranger2/rogueX... but at that point I guess I really dont have many rogue levels. Maybe I could go fighter1/ranger2/RogueX and pick up TWF with my 12 dex and have 4 attacks (greatsword, greatsword, bite, spikes). I just need to find the best break-even point where the AB/feats balance out giving up a sneak attack dice.
My main goal is to get my disabling abilities to max, and do alot of melee damage. I had actually considered taking Cavalier2(Order of Cocatrice) for the free Dazzling Display and then the +2 to hit disabled foes. But... meh. I guess once Im that close to weapon training, maybe thats better.
Thoughts?
Well, if you are gonna go for Fighter 3, you might as well get that 4th level of fighter to grab Weapon Spec (Greatsword). And than this is pushing it, but Fighter 5 gives you Weapon Training.
Note: Items you might be interested in that no one mentioned so far:
- Sash of War Champion(4k; APG, can't remember page): you count your fighter level as 4 levels higher for purposes of Armor Training and Bravery.
-Gloves of Dueling(15k; APG, pg 305): If you've got weapon training class feature and using an appropriate weapon, weapon training bonus increases by +2.
Now thinking about it, being how you are going to play till level 12 - meaning with 3 levels of fighter you already lost your chance of getting Crippling Strike. Question is this than:
Practically by going 5 levels of fighter you net +4 (+1 higher BAB, +3 Weapon Training) to hit, +5 to damage(+2 Weapon Spec, +3 Weapon Training) and a feat. For 1d6 sneak attack, improved uncanny dodge, one rogue talent and 12 skill points - fair trade, but what do you prefer ?Imho, you should visualize your character - as in, is it a fighter that know where to hit, or is it a rogue that went through some fighter training. Mostly cause if you choose rogue route, and this is just my very biased opinion (can't stress how biased i am on this enough) - full plate is hands down silly.
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My main goal is to get my disabling abilities to max, and do alot of melee damage. I had actually considered taking Cavalier2(Order of Cocatrice) for the free Dazzling Display and then the +2 to hit disabled foes. But... meh. I guess once Im that close to weapon training, maybe thats better.
Thoughts?
Your build fails to do any of the things you listed. Max Disable divice can be done easy by any one. All you need is one level of Rogue. Do alot of melee damage. You are a two handed fighter with sneek attack damage. Any two weapon fighter with the same build will out damage you. Your diping in to a low skill class from a high skill class. If you realy want to multi class take ranger levels you get so much more out of it. To top it all of you are removing the single most important ability to avoid damage in the game. Evason only works in light armor.
Start over.
My thoughts
1. Rangers by pass the dex require ments for two weapon fighting
2. Rogues do alot more damage with two weapon figthing. Then thay do with two handed weapons.
3. Any one with one level of rogue can do traps.
4. High damage comes from sticking with what works. Not what looks good or sounds good.
Half Orc ( as per your build ) Half Elf ( Is better )
15 Point buy
Str 17 ( +1 at level 4 = 18 )
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 7
Half Orc ( Toothy Trait ) ( Bite for 1D4 )
Half Elf ( Ancestral Arms ) ( exotic weapon Falcata )
Now
Rogue 2
Ranger 4
Total Level 12
Rogue 6 ( if highter all levels in Rogue. )
Ranger 6
Feets
1 : Weapon Focus Falcata
3 : Double Slice
5 : Improved Intitive
Rogue Talents
2 : Follow Clues
Ranger Combat Traning
2 : Two Weapon Fighting
First up is your build 18 Str Two Handed weapon ( sneek attack 2D6 )
+ 10 to hit 2D6+6 damage Great Sword ( avrage 14 damage )
Two Handed Weapon with Bite
+ 8 to hit 2D6+6 damage Great Sword ( avrage damage 14 )
+ 4 to hit 1D4+2 damage bit ( avrage damage 4 ) ( total damage 18 )
You can make attacks with natural weapons in
combination with attacks made with a melee weapon.
When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your
natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks,
using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2
of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. In addition,
all of your attacks made with melee weapons and unarmed
strikes are made as if you were two-weapon fighting.
Now my build. ( Sneek attack 1D6 )
Falcata one handed
+ 10 to hit 1d8+4 damage Falcata ( avrage damage 9 )
Falcata two weapon fighting
+ 6 to hit 1d8+4 damage for each Falcata ( avrage damage 18 )
This seams about the same.
Great Sword Damage 2D6 + Str mod 1 1/2 Critical 19-20 multiplyer X2
Bite Damage 1D4 + Str mod Critical 20 Multiplyer X 2
Falcata Damage 1D8 + Str mod Critical 19-20 Multiplyer X3
So they do about the same damage untill you crit. After that its all over for the Great Sword.
Yes when your flanking you will get 2D6 more sneek attack damage then my build. My build can make up that difrence in one crit.
Okay, to get this out of the way:
Its never good to break off from class tbh, but when your character concept doesn't support it or your party needs than make sure to milk off all classes as much as you can.
5th level is best break off point from Fighter - you get 3 feats, meet prereq for Weapon Spec and get Weapon Training, which you can boost to practically be Weapon Training 3. Rogue gots a lot of good break off points - either any odd level or 10th level duo to Crippling Strike.
I wanted to crunch some numbers - but i am baffled, what point buy is that ? 10 ? Even than you got extra points to spend.
Presuming Str 16 (2 race, 1 level), means 3 points for 13, Dex 12 is 2 points, Con 14 is 5 and Cha 8 is -2 which brings us to 8 points.
Yes when your flanking you will get 2D6 more sneek attack damage then my build. My build can make up that difrence in one crit.
Your build will have trouble hitting anything to begin with, +6 on hit at level 6 is very poor - Wizard got more than that probably - and he got half BAB not over 3/4 BAB
Example of CR 6 creatures:
Babau AC 19
Brelani AC 20
Lamia AC 20
Xill AC 21
So practically, you need average 14+ on a dice to hit, thats a bit over 25% chance to hit.
Now, knowing written adventures and none written adventures you almost always fight stuff thats at least 1-2 CR higher than you, meaning 2-3 higher AC - meaning you hit on 17+, bringing us to that, that you will mostly only hit when you would otherwise score a crit.
So while you concern yourself with damage, thats all nice, buts its most useless, if you have 25% chance to hit anything of your CR.
Drop falcata's and use 2 kukris or 2 short swords, higher attack bonus, attack rises to +8 which means you hit on 12 or more, which is ~40 of time. And if i am not wrong, you also get to +9 duo to having extra feat to burn on Weapon Focus.
This is exactly the reason why i am saying he should go Fighter - while Ranger is indeed better for TWF cause he removes TWF prereq's on Dex, its also worse cause instead of getting higher to hit and higher constant damage, he gets lower to hit and one extra non-constant source of damage (ergo favored enemy)
Okay, to get this out of the way:
Its never good to break off from class tbh, but when your character concept doesn't support it or your party needs than make sure to milk off all classes as much as you can.5th level is best break off point from Fighter - you get 3 feats, meet prereq for Weapon Spec and get Weapon Training, which you can boost to practically be Weapon Training 3. Rogue gots a lot of good break off points - either any odd level or 10th level duo to Crippling Strike.
I wanted to crunch some numbers - but i am baffled, what point buy is that ? 10 ? Even than you got extra points to spend.
Presuming Str 16 (2 race, 1 level), means 3 points for 13, Dex 12 is 2 points, Con 14 is 5 and Cha 8 is -2 which brings us to 8 points.
Sorry, by 16 I meant I bought 16, +2 str from Orc. running the numbers, the DPR goes up a ton with 18(20), but basically everything else gets bought down so can't really bring myself to do it.
My original build was using a Sword and board , and armor spikes. Primary attack with the sword, secondary with the armor spikes, and wield a heavy shield. While a little cheesy, pretty sure this works RAW. I could also go as you said and wield the heavy shield in the mainhand. With power attack and TWF, the AB just wasnt high enough and it ended up doing less damage on avg than a 2-handed build.
That said, I really like the variety of intimidate goodness that comes from the tree and the "Thug" variant. With befuddling strike, Cornugon Smash/Intimidate, and the thug ability to sacrafice 1d6 to make the target sickened (without a save), thats -6 to the BBEG's attack next round, while doing good damage.
I don't think armor training will come into play much, but the weapon training is pretty good for the AB.
Between more levels of fighter vs more levels of rogue, it comes down to which will hit hardest I guess.
I was also thinking of Taking Cavalier 2 (order of the cocatrice) either by itself replacing fighter, or Ftr1/Cavalier 2.
This would give me the following:
Dazzling Display as a free feat -- and I dont need to take weap focus then
+2 AB against all intimidated foes (which is going to be everyone pretty much all the time except undead,etc)
Mount (... Could take cavalier 4 and boon companion for a 8th level mount at CL8... but it wont be able to follow me in dungeons)
Tactician: 3-4 rounds a day grant the party the Outflank ability for +4 BAB against flanked creatures
Challenge: extra AB/damage against 1 guy a day
I see where your going. My first build involved TWFing a greatsword and armor spikes. I could still go this orute if I had ranger for the dexless TWF.
I'd actually do that over the falcatas. The offhand damage doesnt really matter, its just there to facilitate more sneaks.
At Ftr1/Ranger2/RogueX you can attack 5 times at level 7, with pretty good sneak progression. Its just with the power attack ontop, the AB gets too low to matter.
But heres the thing, power attack and str 20, the greatsword is something like 2d6+13 and good AB.
you have +8 str from 1.5x str, and +5 from PA.
My main goal is to get my disabling abilities to max, and do alot of melee damage. I had actually considered taking Cavalier2(Order of Cocatrice) for the free Dazzling Display and then the +2 to hit disabled foes. But... meh. I guess once Im that close to weapon training, maybe thats better.
Thoughts?
Your build fails to do any of the things you listed. Max Disable divice can be done easy by any one. All you need is one level of Rogue. Do alot of melee damage. You are a two handed fighter with sneek attack damage. Any two weapon fighter with the same build will out damage you. Your diping in to a low skill class from a high skill class. If you realy want to multi class take ranger levels you get so much more out of it. To top it all of you are removing the single most important ability to avoid damage in the game. Evason only works in light armor.
Start over.
My thoughts
1. Rangers by pass the dex require ments for two weapon fighting
2. Rogues do alot more damage with two weapon figthing. Then thay do with two handed weapons.
3. Any one with one level of rogue can do traps.
4. High damage comes from sticking with what works. Not what looks good or sounds good.Half Orc ( as per your build ) Half Elf ( Is better )
15 Point buy
Str 17 ( +1 at level 4 = 18 )
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 7Half Orc ( Toothy Trait ) ( Bite for 1D4 )
Half Elf ( Ancestral Arms ) ( exotic weapon Falcata )Now
Rogue 2
Ranger 4
Total Level 12
Rogue 6 ( if highter all levels in Rogue. )
Ranger 6Feets
1 : Weapon Focus Falcata
3 : Double Slice
5 : Improved IntitiveRogue Talents
2 : Follow CluesRanger Combat Traning
2 : Two Weapon FightingFirst up is your build 18 Str Two Handed weapon ( sneek attack 2D6 )
+ 10 to hit 2D6+6 damage Great Sword ( avrage 14 damage )
Two Handed Weapon with Bite
+ 8 to hit 2D6+6 damage Great Sword ( avrage damage 14 )
+ 4 to hit 1D4+2 damage bit ( avrage damage 4 ) ( total damage 18 )
You can make attacks with natural weapons in...
Cavalier is not worth it tbh, and too much multiclass ... you would profit more from Barbarian than from Cavalier.
Anywho - you can't compare power attack and sneak attack - no way are you without help from one of your members gonna pull off good on both.
That said, i vote for TWF myself for rogue, but if you are going Rogue just for Disable Device, we can keep it on level 1 for +3 from class skills.
Than its totally different story - cause you can simply go Fighter 11 and not bother with TWF nor sneak attack or better yet Inquisitor, cause it looks like a class that you are looking for. Than i would say go Half-Orc for falchion proficiency and go around killing most things in 2 rounds. How ? Grab precise strike for additional 1d6 when you are flanking and Outflank, pop up bane vs tough monsters and watch them cry when you score a crit. Get +1 keen falchion - thats about all you need .. really ... you got spells for the rest. Oh also - get Travel domain, for dimension door on 8th level, so you can be behind your enemies without AoO's and pulverize them.
FWIW, this character was a monster in our CoT campaign. The intimidate is super pwoerful and once you get cornugon and dreadful carnage, it becomes sort of broken in the right campaign.
I ended up finishing out as a Thug/Cavalier/Vivisectionist, and once I had all the extra arms it was fantastic