Doctor Fizzlethorpe, 'Iron Gut''s page

1d6 ⇒ 1

init: 1d20 ⇒ 5

1d20 ⇒ 17

hide: 1d20 ⇒ 4

again: 1d20 ⇒ 20

save3: 1d20 ⇒ 17

save2: 1d20 ⇒ 15

Save: 1d20 ⇒ 13

Shrooms: 1d6 ⇒ 4

Mixing: 1d20 ⇒ 6

INT 1d12 + 6 ⇒ (7) + 6 = 13
WIS 1d8 + 5 ⇒ (4) + 5 = 9
CON 1d8 + 9 ⇒ (2) + 9 = 11
STR 1d10 + 4 ⇒ (10) + 4 = 14
DEX 1d6 + 12 ⇒ (1) + 12 = 13
AGI 1d8 + 4 ⇒ (6) + 4 = 10
EGO 1d8 + 8 ⇒ (2) + 8 = 10
CHA 1d8 + 5 ⇒ (4) + 5 = 9
MCA 1d6 + 13 ⇒ (4) + 13 = 17
SWA 1d8 + 1 ⇒ (4) + 1 = 5
STA 1d6 + 4 ⇒ (3) + 4 = 7

FWIW, this character was a monster in our CoT campaign. The intimidate is super pwoerful and once you get cornugon and dreadful carnage, it becomes sort of broken in the right campaign.

I ended up finishing out as a Thug/Cavalier/Vivisectionist, and once I had all the extra arms it was fantastic

Thanks! I've never even heard of hexographer before now. This is perfect. My player's had happs draw them a map (under extreme duress :p), and after getting them started, I'm going to have them keep track of mapping their progress by adding onto the HXM I've started here. This works great.

I figure it would enhance a little as the players are chartered to explore the stolen lands

So since 'defending' stacks with all other bonuses, how do you feel about people dropping money on +2 defending armor spikes to get additional cheap armor bonuses? eventually this must become cheaper than upping yoru nat armor amulet to +5, and it doesnt take a slot, and keeps existing equipment working longer.

I have a feeling my players are going to try this. >_>

Most 'tough' characters will be fine- I hit a cavalier with a 27 damage crit arrow from Happ's longbow which he survived (barely). Apart from extreme damages like that, assuming everyone has 12 Con as a mininum, an attack has to do greater than or equal to 12 damage to take a character from standing to dead- something bandits aren't going to do except on a crit.

Edit: The biggest change I would make to that encounter is to change the circumstances of it. Have the PC's come in in the middle of Oleg arguing about how much he has to pay with Happs, before being cowed. This made the encounter much harder in my PbP.

Thats actually a fantastic idea, unfortunately they are in the middle of planning their ambush now. (one of them is suggesting they hide in the pile of goods :P)

I'll check out that forum for adjusting it for 6. Thanks guys :)

Hey Folks, so I am running Kingmaker, and have pretty much got buy-in from all my players to offer more challenging combats, and have asked them to provide me with reasonably optimized characters.

For example, our 2 meatshield types are a

Barb1/AlchemistX

and a Barb1/Alchemist1/BarbX build that both took Half orc and amplified rage (at level 1), so that they both can rage for +8 when using the teamwork feat. They both use greatswords, and have 18-20 strength. So yeah, their offense is pretty high.

We have an optimised evil cleric (rage and ferocity), and a neutral cleric, a wizard (admixture specialist), and a ranger(ranged combat style).

I'm pretty new to DMing so I figured i'd start with a CR 3 encounter since it is a 6 man party and is supposed to be challenging.

I started by changing Happs to be a
Male Human Ranger 2, with Scale mail and a potion of blur.
I gave him bolas and he will attempt to trip someone who gets ganged up on by the lesser bandits.

My problem is, I'm having trouble picking reasonable gear and etc without dooming random party members to death. EG: if I give him broadhead arrows, the chances of him oneshotting my party members gets kinda high.

I was thinking of maybe giving happs 2 dogs, and adding in 3 more bandits, but at that point, arent the bandits just going to mow the party over if they fight pretty reasonably?

Kinda need ideas to make these low level encounters challenging without giving them the ability to kill most of my party indiscriminantly. I guess the other problem, is both of the clerics could channel negative and wipe out any number of lv1 characters in one go.

Thread necromancy time!

So, I set up my own domain, forum (private), and web-based map (also private), SSL key, etc to run my first PBP game, and beta test my web-based D&D tabletop for play-by-post.

There are 6 users on my site, all of which are my players. I actually spent about 4 hours (im slow :) doing the first map (Oleg's of Kingmaker)in MapTool so I didn't run afoul of the paizo agreements. Sure, you might hack my domain or my forums, but at that rate, can't anyone hack my computer/email/sniff wireless and grab my PDF for that matter? If I view it on my PS3 in the living room I'm sharing it on my local network -- so theres always some degree of insecurity. I agree that there are varying levels of what people deem "private"... But I think if theres no way for external users to get to it (and you do everything in your power to protect it), it would be a HUGE boon for me to copy say Oleg's Tavern into a jpeg and throw it up on my PBP system (Once its in as an image, can add minis, and scale the map properly so that varying map resolutions all jive with the system, on the web so my setup time is almost 0 if I can cut and paste an image).

I also understand that you guys essentially gain nothing by allowing DM's to do this, but I think at the same token you must realistically expect for example, a in-person DM to have handouts,etc (Wanted posters from the PDF, a battle map, etc) where pieces of Adventure path are used by tabletop DM's to enhance the experience.

I'm pretty happy with Vic's reply... too bad I didnt see this sooner :)

Elucidus wrote:

Well I wrote a nice reply, but these crappy forums ate it. So I will say this. Your reasoning is ridiculous. My house can be broken into just as easily and anything can be hacked. To say you are protecting things to the best of your ability should suffice. I am not posting the module, I just want the maps, I can even forgo the argue about the other images. I can describe everything else. I can't describe a grid and for me to have to recreate a grid map is ludicrous. I no longer tabletop game, all of my gaming is online.

Sorry if my reply is a bit raw, the other one was eaten and in a much nicer tone. That's what I get for previewing it and trying to make it sound diplomatic.

No offense taken I think the best bet is make your forum as secure as possible. Many people assume a forum is safe and don't take the care to really make sure all the doors are locked. I would disagree a home is as easy to break into. Working on a university campus I see people run simple programs that require less effort then picking up a rock to smash your window. So unless you leave your doors unlocked your home is somewhat more secure. It requires a rare set of skills to enter a home unnoticed it requires significantly less skills to do the same to an electronic forum and as noted earlier search engines basically provide a map to where items can be found. There's no inventory available to whats in your home to make it a target that alone increases your homes safety vs your forum, unless you leave your valuables on a window sill. I think Paizo asks us to do our best and making your forum as secure as possible goes a long way towards doing your best.

Hello. I am running a campaign with a website of mine that takes the play by post thread and displays it alongside a web based battlemap. This is all well and good, except when viewing threads in rss mode, I don't get dice results? Is there some way to see dice results when viewing the threads as a feed?

Thanks!

:)

I see where your going. My first build involved TWFing a greatsword and armor spikes. I could still go this orute if I had ranger for the dexless TWF.

I'd actually do that over the falcatas. The offhand damage doesnt really matter, its just there to facilitate more sneaks.

At Ftr1/Ranger2/RogueX you can attack 5 times at level 7, with pretty good sneak progression. Its just with the power attack ontop, the AB gets too low to matter.

But heres the thing, power attack and str 20, the greatsword is something like 2d6+13 and good AB.
you have +8 str from 1.5x str, and +5 from PA.

My main goal is to get my disabling abilities to max, and do alot of melee damage. I had actually considered taking Cavalier2(Order of Cocatrice) for the free Dazzling Display and then the +2 to hit disabled foes. But... meh. I guess once Im that close to weapon training, maybe thats better.

Thoughts?

Your build fails to do any of the things you listed. Max Disable divice can be done easy by any one. All you need is one level of Rogue. Do alot of melee damage. You are a two handed fighter with sneek attack damage. Any two weapon fighter with the same build will out damage you. Your diping in to a low skill class from a high skill class. If you realy want to multi class take ranger levels you get so much more out of it. To top it all of you are removing the single most important ability to avoid damage in the game. Evason only works in light armor.

Start over.

My thoughts
1. Rangers by pass the dex require ments for two weapon fighting
2. Rogues do alot more damage with two weapon figthing. Then thay do with two handed weapons.
3. Any one with one level of rogue can do traps.
4. High damage comes from sticking with what works. Not what looks good or sounds good.

Half Orc ( as per your build ) Half Elf ( Is better )
15 Point buy
Str 17 ( +1 at level 4 = 18 )
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 7

Half Orc ( Toothy Trait ) ( Bite for 1D4 )
Half Elf ( Ancestral Arms ) ( exotic weapon Falcata )

Now
Rogue 2
Ranger 4
Total Level 12
Rogue 6 ( if highter all levels in Rogue. )
Ranger 6

Feets
1 : Weapon Focus Falcata
3 : Double Slice
5 : Improved Intitive

Rogue Talents
2 : Follow Clues

Ranger Combat Traning
2 : Two Weapon Fighting

First up is your build 18 Str Two Handed weapon ( sneek attack 2D6 )
+ 10 to hit 2D6+6 damage Great Sword ( avrage 14 damage )
Two Handed Weapon with Bite
+ 8 to hit 2D6+6 damage Great Sword ( avrage damage 14 )
+ 4 to hit 1D4+2 damage bit ( avrage damage 4 ) ( total damage 18 )
You can make attacks with natural weapons in...

Okay, to get this out of the way:

Its never good to break off from class tbh, but when your character concept doesn't support it or your party needs than make sure to milk off all classes as much as you can.

5th level is best break off point from Fighter - you get 3 feats, meet prereq for Weapon Spec and get Weapon Training, which you can boost to practically be Weapon Training 3. Rogue gots a lot of good break off points - either any odd level or 10th level duo to Crippling Strike.

I wanted to crunch some numbers - but i am baffled, what point buy is that ? 10 ? Even than you got extra points to spend.
Presuming Str 16 (2 race, 1 level), means 3 points for 13, Dex 12 is 2 points, Con 14 is 5 and Cha 8 is -2 which brings us to 8 points.

Sorry, by 16 I meant I bought 16, +2 str from Orc. running the numbers, the DPR goes up a ton with 18(20), but basically everything else gets bought down so can't really bring myself to do it.

My original build was using a Sword and board , and armor spikes. Primary attack with the sword, secondary with the armor spikes, and wield a heavy shield. While a little cheesy, pretty sure this works RAW. I could also go as you said and wield the heavy shield in the mainhand. With power attack and TWF, the AB just wasnt high enough and it ended up doing less damage on avg than a 2-handed build.

That said, I really like the variety of intimidate goodness that comes from the tree and the "Thug" variant. With befuddling strike, Cornugon Smash/Intimidate, and the thug ability to sacrafice 1d6 to make the target sickened (without a save), thats -6 to the BBEG's attack next round, while doing good damage.

I don't think armor training will come into play much, but the weapon training is pretty good for the AB.

Between more levels of fighter vs more levels of rogue, it comes down to which will hit hardest I guess.

I was also thinking of Taking Cavalier 2 (order of the cocatrice) either by itself replacing fighter, or Ftr1/Cavalier 2.

This would give me the following:
Dazzling Display as a free feat -- and I dont need to take weap focus then
+2 AB against all intimidated foes (which is going to be everyone pretty much all the time except undead,etc)
Mount (... Could take cavalier 4 and boon companion for a 8th level mount at CL8... but it wont be able to follow me in dungeons)
Tactician: 3-4 rounds a day grant the party the Outflank ability for +4 BAB against flanked creatures
Challenge: extra AB/damage against 1 guy a day

I dont really see him as a 'rogue who went through some fighter training' More like a bounty hunter type. The party has a ranger who wears light armor and has good dex/stealth, so I discussed and will not even be taking stealth this go-around.

I'll definately look into those items. I basically just want to be able to dish out the most melee offense as possible/debuff enemies around me. I think the Thug APG variant works pretty well with this build, but I realize it could probably be better done with a caster or something. The party does need me to find/disable traps, so I'm most likely going to be mixing rogue in there no matter what.

My original build had Greatsword/bite/armor spikes for 5 attacks, and that didnt work out as well DPR wise when I crunched the numbers at least in the lower levels due to its really low AB. However I wonder if I was fighter2-3/ranger2/rogueX... but at that point I guess I really dont have many rogue levels. Maybe I could go fighter1/ranger2/RogueX and pick up TWF with my 12 dex and have 4 attacks (greatsword, greatsword, bite, spikes). I just need to find the best break-even point where the AB/feats balance out giving up a sneak attack dice.

My main goal is to get my disabling abilities to max, and do alot of melee damage. I had actually considered taking Cavalier2(Order of Cocatrice) for the free Dazzling Display and then the +2 to hit disabled foes. But... meh. I guess once Im that close to weapon training, maybe thats better.

Thoughts?

Well, if you are gonna go for Fighter 3, you might as well get that 4th level of fighter to grab Weapon Spec (Greatsword). And than this is pushing it, but Fighter 5 gives you Weapon Training.

Note: Items you might be interested in that no one mentioned so far:

- Sash of War Champion(4k; APG, can't remember page): you count your fighter level as 4 levels higher for purposes of Armor Training and Bravery.

-Gloves of Dueling(15k; APG, pg 305): If you've got weapon training class feature and using an appropriate weapon, weapon training bonus increases by +2.

Now thinking about it, being how you are going to play till level 12 - meaning with 3 levels of fighter you already lost your chance of getting Crippling Strike. Question is this than:
Practically by going 5 levels of fighter you net +4 (+1 higher BAB, +3 Weapon Training) to hit, +5 to damage(+2 Weapon Spec, +3 Weapon Training) and a feat. For 1d6 sneak attack, improved uncanny dodge, one rogue talent and 12 skill points - fair trade, but what do you prefer ?

Imho, you should visualize your character - as in, is it a fighter that know where to hit, or is it a rogue that went through some fighter training. Mostly cause if you choose rogue route, and this is just my very biased opinion (can't stress how biased i am on this enough) - full plate is hands down silly.

Doctor Fizzlethorpe, 'Iron Gut' wrote:

Wand of Shield (UMD or give to caster)

Shield has a range of "personal" and the caster can't use it on you.

...Crap :)

UMD only I guess

I would hit fighter 3 instead of rogue 4 at this point.

Fighter will give you:

+1 ref +1 will
Medium armor movement without movement penalty (you don't need a mithral breastplate so why buy one?).

It would give you shatter defense (a good choice) and a feat that you can grab either Iron will (great choice) or skill focus(intimidate) with.

You think it would be best to swap out CL5 for rogue? I'm kinda on the fence about armor training, I don't know if I am ever going to go for a 4th level of fighter, except if im starving for a feat or i need more BAB.

My item list is as follows:

+1 Full Plate
+1 str item (DM ok'd this)
+5 Intimidate Item (2500gp per magic item section)
Ring of Protection +1
Masterwork (Heirloom) Cold Iron Greatsword
Wand of Shield (UMD or give to caster)
Wand of CLW (UMD or give to cleric to help inbetween fights)
MW Thieves tools
MW Manacles
random other stuff

I was thinking of maybe some other full BAB class to dip for the AB, as I am right now sitting at 12 dex and the armor training might not do much for me. I guess the full movement in mithril will be nicer later

I also had the (maybe incorrect) idea of dipping ranger1 for some AB, and favored enemy: evil outsider, plus its +2 ref and fort which would kinda be nice

Hey Folks, Took alot of your comments under advisement. My Anydice calculations were off, and I now realize that the TWF/five attacks doesnt really get you any more damage with this build since with PA and TWF, it rarely will hit on the offhand weapon spike attacks.

My current build is going for 2handed/bite damage, and utilizing Dreadful Carnage. Since our campaign will end at around level 12 I opted against a shield master TWF build because I'll likely never get the feats that make it work.

I will be using orc bonuses, trait bonuses, and the Rogue "Thug" APG variant to maximize intimidate effectiveness. If I ever get to +11BAB, Dreadful carnage gets you a free Dazzling Display after downing an enemy.

Race: Half-Orc (Toothy Alternate Trait)
Traits:
Brute (Half-Orc): +2 intimidate
Heirloom Weapon (Greatsword): "Masterwork weapon on creation,+1 attack with this specific weapon"

Str: 16
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 8

CL1: Fighter 1 - Furious Focus, Power Attack
CL2: Rogue 1
CL3: Rogue 2: Intimidating Prowess, Talent: Befuddling Attack (or bleed)
CL4: Rogue 3:
CL5: Rogue 4: Weapon Training (Greatsword),Dazzling Display
CL6: Fighter 2: Cornugon Smash

At CL7 Im considering Fighter3 to get shatter defences at 7.

Later on I will be going for Deadly Stroke, and Dreadful Carnage

Not sure the best way to fill this out, want to go with mostly rogue, no more than fighter3. Thoughts?

We're starting at CL5, so I dont have it totally set after CL5

So I'm going to revise a little bit and NOT take TWF.

I'll have 3 attacks as soon as I have 6AB, but the damage from PA, the extra AB, makes up for the extra 2 attacks, using a sample AC of 18-22 ( counting flanking bonus for these calcs, so effectively 20-24).

If I use a Bastard Sword 1 handed I can take focus (bastard sword) and still be able to use one 2handed if my heirloom Bastard sword goes away.

This is approximately average 6DPR less than Greatsword (35 vs 29), BUT with shield use I could get the following 2 feats for essentially free:

Furious Focus/Dreadful Carnage.

I'll post my updated build and does anyone have suggestions for what to spend 2 extra feats on for a Power-Attacking non TWF orc with Dazzling Display/Cornugon Smash/Shatter Defenses chain?

OK

So, I realized there was a error in my AnyDice math. Yeah, the TWF with PA just does not work out. A 2handed/bite rogue was doing higher average damage against average AC(18-22 spread at level 5).

So yes, I think I will use Falchion/Bite or Greatsword/Bite (almost want to go dwarf at this point). I will probably sink my TWF/ITWF feats into orc hide and dodge to keep my AC roughly the same.

But yeah, oops :)

This build is great. I just think that since your not going to be as sneaky, dipping a few levels of fighter probably helps this out a ton.

I was thinking of Fighter or Ranger to get extra feats for TWF, then using Falchion + Armor Spikes + Orc natural bite for 5 attacks instead of the 2 or 3 that this build would get.

People have said that my AB would be too low at this point, but I dunno, there has to be a way to make it work.

Brute Half-Orc Rogue

(Start with at least 18 STR)

Trait-
Brute:You have spent long hours working for a crime lord, either as a low-level enforcer or as a guard or bouncer. You’re adept at frightening away people.
Benefit: You gain a +2 trait bonus on Intimidate checks.(Adds to your racial+2)

Heirloom Weapon: Benefit: This heirloom weapon is of masterwork quality (but you pay only the standard cost at character creation). You gain a +1 trait bonus on attack rolls with this specific weapon and are considered proficient with that specific weapon (but not other weapons of that type) even if you do not have the required proficiencies.

Use the following (you have 6 feats to pick)
1SA 1d6, Trapfinding, Intimidating Prowess
2Wpn Fcs: Falchion, Evasion
3Dazzling Display, SA 2d6, Trap Sense +1
4Conrugan Smash, Uncanny Dodge
5Power Attack, SA 3d6
6Resiliancy, Trap Sense +2
7Feat, SA 4d6
8Bleeding Attack, Improved Uncanny Dodge
9Shatter Defences, SA 5d6, Trap Sense +3
10Crippling Strike
11Feat, SA 6d6
12Feat, trap sense +4
13Feat, SA 7d6
14Oppourtunist
15Feat, SA 8d6, Trap Sense +5
16Defensive Roll
17 Feat, SA 9d6
18Slippery Mind, Trap Sense +6
19Feat, SA 10d6
20Skill mastery, Master Strike

Cheers.

Doctor Fizzlethorpe, 'Iron Gut' wrote:

Quote:

Heirloom Weapon: Benefit: This heirloom weapon is of masterwork quality (but you pay only the standard cost at character creation). You gain a +1 trait bonus on attack rolls with this specific weapon and are considered proficient with that specific weapon (but not other weapons of that type) even if you do not have the required proficiencies.

So in your case, you'd have heirloom...fists? :)

Addams Family Values wrote:

[about Pubert]

Gomez: He has my father's eyes.
Morticia: Gomez, take those out of his mouth.

With the quoted build it was using a falchion. For me It'd be falchion/greatsword/longsword depending

Aha. I found the build that inspired me trying to do this. Was wanting to put in fighter levels to help boost the power.

This is from http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/advice/helpMeBuildAGreatCombatRogue&page=1

Brute Half-Orc Rogue
(Start with at least 18 STR)

Trait-
Brute:You have spent long hours working for a crime lord, either as a low-level enforcer or as a guard or bouncer. You’re adept at frightening away people.
Benefit: You gain a +2 trait bonus on Intimidate checks.(Adds to your racial+2)

Heirloom Weapon: Benefit: This heirloom weapon is of masterwork quality (but you pay only the standard cost at character creation). You gain a +1 trait bonus on attack rolls with this specific weapon and are considered proficient with that specific weapon (but not other weapons of that type) even if you do not have the required proficiencies.

Use the following (you have 6 feats to pick)
1SA 1d6, Trapfinding, Intimidating Prowess
2Wpn Fcs: Falchion, Evasion
3Dazzling Display, SA 2d6, Trap Sense +1
4Conrugan Smash, Uncanny Dodge
5Power Attack, SA 3d6
6Resiliancy, Trap Sense +2
7Feat, SA 4d6
8Bleeding Attack, Improved Uncanny Dodge
9Shatter Defences, SA 5d6, Trap Sense +3
10Crippling Strike
11Feat, SA 6d6
12Feat, trap sense +4
13Feat, SA 7d6
14Oppourtunist
15Feat, SA 8d6, Trap Sense +5
16Defensive Roll
17 Feat, SA 9d6
18Slippery Mind, Trap Sense +6
19Feat, SA 10d6
20Skill mastery, Master Strike

Obviously this build has cornugan at 4 instead of 6, os that would need to be fixed, but I like it, alot. Just imagine it can be done better/more if dipping some fighter or etc

Doctor Fizzlethorpe, 'Iron Gut' wrote:

Quote:

I was asking about the "gold disadvantage" -- that part didn't make sense to me. Monk's don't have a "gold disadvantage".

Insofar that you need to spend tons of cash on amulet of might fists and etc to get the same effects you can get from weapons. As I was a monk/rogue, economically one could see where you'd get tons better results with weapons/light armor for the same GP amounts.

The campaign is going to go 1-13ish as far as I understand.

Might I suggest just using a temple sword until about -- level 8? Or just some brass knuckles?

The temple sword will do more damage and have a better critical range until level 8, and the brass knuckles do unarmed strike damage with the ability to flurry. Both cost less than an amulet of the mighty fist and give all the same effects and then some.

So, Me and my DM discussed the brass knuckles bit. Some of the people I talked to are under the impression that they come as a set, ala gauntlets.

As I understand it, it'd actually be significantly cheaper to buy brass knuckles because with flurry you can make all of your attacks with one hand, knee, whatever, so you'd buy 1 brass knuckle set and all of your attacks would be modified, this is correct right?

Alternatively you could have a set of one CI and one silver, no?

I went and took weapon focus (unarmed) before any of us had seen the APG sadly so theres a bit of a wasted feat, but considering MW knuckles have the same effect, oh well.

At any rate, It still seems I could make a better combat rogue by doing Ftr1-3/RogueX or Ranger2/RogueX .

I guess at the end of the day, thats what I was trying to make, a more combat-capable rogue.

With a mithral BP or something, most rogue skills are going to be fine, and really as we advance in levels, dont climb/jump/etc start to get marginalized by flying and etc?

The current char sheet that sits infront of me is

CL1 Fighter1
CL2 Rogue(thug) 1
CL3 Rogue 2
CL4 Rogue 3
CL5 Rogue 4

Without rattling off everything

Str is 19(looking at buying str booster asap)
Dex is 15 (For TWF)
Con 12
int/wis standard, bought down cha

Feats include:
Power attack, TWF, Focus, Intimidating Prowess, Dazzling Display, Bleeding attack (looking into alternates posted above)

Next 2 levels will bring ITWF and Cornugon Smash, with the idea of everytime I hit with a PA, I'll be doing shaken for multiple rounds, or free frightens on enemies, ala APG thug alternate.

I was asking about the "gold disadvantage" -- that part didn't make sense to me. Monk's don't have a "gold disadvantage".

Insofar that you need to spend tons of cash on amulet of might fists and etc to get the same effects you can get from weapons. As I was a monk/rogue, economically one could see where you'd get tons better results with weapons/light armor for the same GP amounts.

The campaign is going to go 1-13ish as far as I understand.

Wait what? Where do you get this odd idea?

Well, my original build and what ended up were very different. We originally had a rogue, then didn't so I ended up filling that role and taking more rogue levels.

Anyways to answer more questions:

a) We're using standard point-buy, 15 points I think

b) Regarding a few posts back, My intimidates will be coming from power attack/cornugon smash and I had selected the "Thug" APG Rogue template which lets you also frighten with it, and sacrafice a 1d6 to sicken. I figure this would help reduce damage we take.

For reliable damage and good AC a simple fighter with a falchion or two-handed sword and decent armour is what I would go for. It's also really easy to put together.

If that's not defensive enough then sword and board fighter will do the job.

Oh, and don't play an orc, play a half-orc. They're better.

Is brute or heirloom weapon a CoT trait?

Ok. Thanks for all the replies folks.

Let me try to clear this up :P

As it stands: We have a Ranger, Dragonfire Adept, and Me that usually get into melee combat range. The ranger is a sword/shield ranger with a heavy shield that TWF's (at -4/-4) with light armor. So he is very dicey in combat.

The dragonfire adept has good AC and very good HP.

I almost always (sofar at level 5, just finished the 'Knot in CoT) am flanking and get sneak attack damage.

Right now my character is a Monk2/Rogue3, and I know I can accomplish what I'm doing with him better with other characters.

While lots of stealth actually was helpful in me getting free heavy damage sneaks off in the last dungeon, in general its not been super useful for us. Climb/Jump has been but I know that gets negated at later levels. I'm pretty sure our DFA can fly at level 5 so maybe thats not a big deal just yet. But theres been plenty of situations where I've had to scale a wall, take out the guy on top, and drop a rope down for the party or etc. I'll obviously be doing less of that, and that might not matter.

Anwyays, the data as I understand it:

a)I feel we lately have very good tactical positioning, and I will be sneak attacking at least 75% of the time.

b) The plan in my above build was to (still TWFing, armor spikes and longsword, as far as I understand RAW this works) power attack and have curmudgon (sp?) smash kick off free intimidates bundled with the rogue alternate "Thug" template, to have extra shaken/frightened condition. Level 5 my intimidate bonus was +16. I care about being able to get behind enemies and do tons of damage more than the rest. A friend showed me the toothy, and doing calcs on anydice using AC spread of 19..23 it added about 13 avg DPR.

c) Yeah, it seems like with -2PA and -2 TWF my attack rating won't be as high, but from the numbers i ran, a 2hander/toothy is going to do like 45DPR , and the 5 sneak attacks is going to be significantly higher.

d) I looked at going with a 2hander build, and without rage/mutagen wasn't sure how to get enough damage to start closing the gap with a rogue-type build

e) Shatter defenses was mostly for me to be able to more reliably hit with the -5 attacks. Since my intimidate bonus is so high, I could try leading with dazzling display then get extra attacks against flat footed?

I talked to the party and theyre under the agreement that the stealth isnt the biggest deal, because we really need the extra combat power. Our DFA does tons of damage, our cleric is good, and we have a decent sorc, its just that the ranger hits occasionally for d6 and dies fast. I actually rolled really really well for hp(all 7 and 8) on my monk/rog so he is pretty survivable.

f) Looking at doing damage primarily, while (using level 5 for example) staying in the 22-24+ AC range. I'd love to stay at 20+CL ac, and am definately open to suggestions on this stuff.

OK. Ended up with my l5

Fighter1 Power attack
Rog1
Rog2 bleed, dazzling display
rog3
rog 4 Intimidating prowess, weapon training

still have combat trick free so Its like im up a feat at this point

will go to ftr2,ftr3 next 2 levels

Agile BP +1
heavy dw shield +2
prot +1 ring
+1 str item (dm ok'd)
masterwork longsword
silver armor spikes

random stuff.

Intimidate is +16, stealth etc isnt bad, AC is 24 and will shoot up once I can get some mithril full plate. Looking like this will be fun :)

I guess I should mention that my goal with this guy is #1 to do significantly more melee damage than I was doing previously, and second, to be able to avoid getting clobbered instantly. So between damage and outrageous AC, id rather have great damage, and 'good' AC.

I think Im going to do F2 (or RNG2) and 3 rog to start, going F3 at level 6 or 7 most likely. The extra sneak dice is too tempting right now, I'll suffer with 20' move methinks. Also, my skills look pretty bad at f3/r2 compared to the ranger/rog build, so I'm concerned I may start failing stuff that was piece of cake before

Fighter will eventually get you full movement (level 7?) in non-mithril full plate. My suggestion on your defense is this:

Know your game master. If he likes dungeons and is generally willing to let you tank---ie the monsters don't make a terrific effort to get around you, a defensive build works pretty well, especially so if you do a lot of 10' wide corridor fights (if enlarged, you can interdict movement by yourself from anything but a bullrush or an overrun). TWF weapon and shield works ok with that build, although it really matures at levels 11 and 12, when you can get shield mastery and other +11 bab feats to lever up your damage to acceptable levels. Problem with the build is that it requires a really high dex as well as strength and con to make it work. But shield slam with greater bullrush in a corridor fight or close terrain fight can be a thing of beauty, especially since you can slam them into an obstacle and knock them prone, something you can't do with vanilla bullrush. Setting up AoO's in quantity for your fellow melees and rogues also radically boosts your effective damage output---and a little secret, it does it in a way that draws VERY low DM aggro from most GMs. In his mind, you're just a BSF who puts out relatively modest damage. One technique I've seen my players use to keep me from easily focus-firing their rogues when they're in melee is to use the shield tanks to move the line forward selectively with their shield slams and leave the rogue's 'designated victim' behind the line prone(and sometimes flanked as well). For example, in a 15' corridor, 2 tank, 1 rogue front:
|---|
|EEE|
|FF-|
|--R|
E=Evil guy, F=Fighter tank, R=slicey-dicey rogue | wall

Both fighters slam the evil guys in front of them with each hit of their shield. They take their 5' steps after they've pushed back the guy in front of them. Fighter 2 also slams the evil guy in front of the rogue horizontally into the wall, if he can with one of his iterative attacks. With weapon training and other hit...

edit: after some figuring, I think I can get the most out of being somewhat roguey, and decent ac by the following shopping list:

Fighter1/Rogue4

+2 dex belt (need this at 7 for ITWF) -- maybe wait for later on this, but might have more long-term use than a +1 amulet/ring
agile Breastplate + 1
+2 DW Heavy Shield
Ring of protection

I have 26AC, +3 dex for acro,etc, and no ACP on climb/jump

The plan I think is to move to mithral Full plate by level 7 when I will be fighter3.

This frontloads most of my skill points so I dont feel pain there, and I still qualify for all my feats at the same level.

Probably should wait on the dex belt...

Im pretty solid on this now. I just need to convince myself the Favored Enemy: Outsider (evil) isn't that good after all :P

Maybe I could throw in ranger1 to get the FE if it ends up coming up alot

Doctor Fizzlethorpe, 'Iron Gut' wrote:

Also, any suggestion on if I should go Ranger2/ftr1 or Fighter3?

I'm thinking fighter 3 for now as it will get you armor training. With 15 Dexterity you only have a +2 modifier going towards AC. With armor training 1, you could wear non-mithral magical full plate and still get your full modifier to AC.

Doctor Fizzlethorpe, 'Iron Gut' wrote:

I'm looking at 18 str, 15 dex, 12 con for my starting physical stats. That way I qualify for TWF right away. Maybe if i get a dex item, I will pump dex at my 2nd stat increase. Our DM has let us buy a +1 stat item for 1000gp

A magic stat item that only effects half the people of the world? How odd! There's a reason the designers only gave them even numbers.

The normal full plate will limit you later on if you do increase your Dex, but that can be fixed with a few more fighter levels or a different suit of armor when you have more time and money.

Doctor Fizzlethorpe, 'Iron Gut' wrote:

Also I'm considering both "Craft (Alchemy)" for poisons and etc as well as Handle animal, but can handle animal ever get you a decent non-ranger-companion animal? I know attack dogs and etc are nice, but at level 5, is there any decent uses for the skill for me?

Don't invest in craft (alchemy) and poisons unless you intend to take the Master Alchemist feat. They take too long to make otherwise.

You should talk to your GM about the animal possibilities before taking Handle Animal. You will never have a true animal companion, but there is no in-world reason why a fighter/rogue couldn't still try to tame a (normal) bear, or better yet, an owlbear! :P

So at 5th-level you could get +1 full plate, +2 shield, ring of protection +1, and an amulet of natural armor +1.

That's a final AC of 28 at 5th-level, putting you way ahead of the AC curve. You might even have money left over for other small things, such as masterwork longsword and some potions.

Thanks for the feedback!

I think the fighter is probably too good to ignore as the levels ramp up. I was looking forward to wand use and maybe the favored enemy, but getting hit less probably trumps that. With so much full BAB mixed in I think my to hit will be OK, but ill also be swinging at -4 all around for TWF and PA, although I wont need to PA after something is shaken.

I might stick to a breastplate until a level or 2 later just so I can keep doing scouting/scaling walls/etc that I've had to do in the past.

Although if I got the stealth enchant on full plate, id really only be facing the speed issue which may not be such a big deal

Doctor Fizzlethorpe, 'Iron Gut' wrote:

Ravingdork wrote:

As a rough rule of thumb, an AC of 20 + character level is pretty good to have.

Any tips on how to best get that within the 10500 level 5 gold?

I'm not sure if the fighter's superior AC works out better. I could for example get mithril full plate (if I waited) in a level or so and have full speed with the fighter, or does the cost not realy work out? I understand we will finish the campaign around level 12.

With the ranger-included build, I was thinking of using a Agile Mithril BP , which will run me about 4k.

I was originally thinking of using a greatsword + armor spikes, but then the AC would be pretty abysmal.

I figure I'll buy a +2 Darkwood Large shield and not enchant the armor incase I want to trade up later.

Any hints on what my item list should look like? :)

I think with a +2 shield, and a +1 BP, He'd have 22AC, and have spent a little less than half of his starting gold.

I guess I could dump TWF and/or ITWF, and gain an additional 2 AC here, but doing the numbers on anydice (which is awesome), the extra attacks add significant average damage per round, and I really like the intimidate line and don't have the feats to get all the 2H feats alongside I guess

The best way to get a high AC on a budget (besides having good armor and a high Dex) is to split the costs.

Having +1 armor, a +1 shield, a ring of protection +1, and an amulet of protection +1 will get you more AC at a lower cost than any one of those items at a higher bonus. Find out how much you want to spend to pump your AC, then find out the most efficient way to allocate your bonus among these items. Generally, armor and shield come first as they are dirt cheap. Then you pick up the ring. Then the amulet.

I'd go ahead and do the math for you, but I don't know if you want to spend the entire 10,500 on it.

I think if allowed, I will spend the lion's share on defense. I'm aiming for a +1 Holy weapon enchant, so I will probably roll with my normal Heirloom weapon and hope to get a hand-me-down from the party (I will buy a pot or two of magic weapon just in case, but I think my damage will be fine for overcoming DR).

I guess one thing is by 7 I need to get +2 dex from items, so it might behoove me to do that early on.

Also, any suggestion on if I should go Ranger2/ftr1 or Fighter3?

I think I save some $$$ on fighter3, but have worse saves, no favored enemy (might be great in Cheliax).

I'm pretty sure if I was rolling a level 8+ character, and could afford Mithril full plate, it would totally edge out the ranger levels, but then again maybe I'll be fighting alot more evil outsiders.

arg :)

Playing in about 10 hours gotta get this ready, I'm gonna make up 2 sheets for each build so I can waffle hehe

I'm looking at 18 str, 15 dex, 12 con for my starting physical stats. That way I qualify for TWF right away. Maybe if i get a dex item, I will pump dex at my 2nd stat increase. Our DM has let us buy a +1 stat item for 1000gp

ALso Im considering both "Craft (Alchemy)" for poisons and etc as well as Handle animal, but can handle animal ever get you a decent non-ranger-companion animal? I know attack dogs and etc are nice, but at level 5, is there any decent uses for the skill for me?

As a rough rule of thumb, an AC of 20 + character level is pretty good to have.

Any tips on how to best get that within the 10500 level 5 gold?

I'm not sure if the fighter's superior AC works out better. I could for example get mithril full plate (if I waited) in a level or so and have full speed with the fighter, or does the cost not realy work out? I understand we will finish the campaign around level 12.

With the ranger-included build, I was thinking of using a Agile Mithril BP , which will run me about 4k.

I was originally thinking of using a greatsword + armor spikes, but then the AC would be pretty abysmal.

I figure I'll buy a +2 Darkwood Large shield and not enchant the armor incase I want to trade up later.

Any hints on what my item list should look like? :)

I think with a +2 shield, and a +1 BP, He'd have 22AC, and have spent a little less than half of his starting gold.

I guess I could dump TWF and/or ITWF, and gain an additional 2 AC here, but doing the numbers on anydice (which is awesome), the extra attacks add significant average damage per round, and I really like the intimidate line and don't have the feats to get all the 2H feats alongside I guess

Hey Folks, I'm getting ready to roll out a re-created level 5 character tomorrow. We are playing council of thieves, and our party is rather disfunctional in combat (we routinely argue about why we should/shouldn't do things, and often pass up BBEG/loot/challenges ,etc because we can't agree morally how to tackle a problem) and we spend alot of our time in really sticky situations, with half the party knocking on deaths door.

I currently have a monk2/rogue2 that I'm being gracefully allowed to kill off, and start a new character.

Our party lacks decent front line fighters and deals pretty much 0 melee damage. My monk was doing OK, but my build was not great and I realize that going with monk you end up with a huge gold disadvantage, and my build was not super great.

So, what I've got is a Ranger2/Ftr1/RogueX or Ftr3/RogueX build with Orc, Toothy, A Longsword, Heavy Darkwood Shield, and armor spikes for TWF and a bite attack for a total of 5 attacks at level 7. I crunched the numbers with AnyDice and it works out significantly better damage wise than a fighter-heavy or 2hand build (though, I am probably not seeing the best 2hand build, havent had any experience there)

Build looks like:

Orc with Toothy racial alternate

Heirloom weapon, Brute traits (2 to intim)

1 Ranger1 Power Attack ,Enemy Outsider (evil)
2 Ranger2 TWF
3 Rog(thug)1 Intimidating Prowess, SA 1d6
4 Rog2 Bleeding attack
5 Rog3 SA 2d6, Weapon Focus (longsword?)
6 Rog4 Combat trick: Cornugon Smash
7 Ftr1 Improved TWF, Dazzling Display (buying +2 dex item here for ITWF prereqs)

At level 6 (Will be starting at 5) intimidate should be +16, with free intimidates on power attack hits, and thug adding extra rounds/frightened to intimidate checks.

Shatter Defenses will come at level 9 to automatically SA intimidated foes.

Thug can also sacrifice 1d6 for sickened, which should stack with shaken, for a -4. Sounds good :)

Was thinking of swapping the ranger levels for fighter to be able to wear regular BP and still move full and not have to spend 4k fo my 10500 on a mithral BP. Not sure whats right there. We're doing Cheliax, so I think evil outsider favored enemy is good to have, as well as the extra saves and wand use of ranger, but I think my AC is not gonna be super great even with a Heavy shield

The room you are in is like many of the others, with the same 5 foot wide, nausea inducing spiral staircase and the pit in the center. about 30 feet across in total the pit is 20 feet across. The Stone door you passed through to the southwest is open. Two closed passages are to the east and the northeast.

[ooc] Then I probably need to recalculate the EXP I gave last time. We will be getting back to the sewer side retcon soon as well.[ooc]

Dakaar moves towards the east passage and tries to peer through the door.

Perception: 3d6 + 9 ⇒ (6, 3, 3) + 9 = 21

Dakaar tosses Alcibades a potion (clw). "Let's move, the guests in the mansion will be waking soon and we want to attract as little attention as possible leaving."

Is there any way for us to retcon doing that before we left? Ima chalking this up to arguing amongst ourselves too much OOC

Fizzlethorpe gets a dart out of his belt and hurls it at the slime thing.

1d20 + 3 ⇒ (11) + 3 = 14

Damage: 1d3 - 1 ⇒ (3) - 1 = 2

Fizzlethorpe's eyes quite literally bug out of his head (how'd he do that?) "Weeeeeeeell, this is interesting!". Dr F stops whatever he was doing and stares at the alchemical goodies.

Init: 1d20 + 2 ⇒ (16) + 2 = 18

Doctor F looks longingly at one of the skulls, thinking it would make a fabulous hat. He looks over his head at the stuffy cleric, and determines to sneak one away later

"Uh, do you think we should ahm, smash them up so they dont get up and eat our brains when we arent looking?" Doctor F looks nervous and skittish.

Fizzlethorpe starts to shuffle around nervously. 'This tension is killing me! Lets go blow something up!' Dr. F vainly attempts to corral the Orc through to the door on the right.