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This follows from a discussion on the PFS board.
Relevant Rules:
A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed. (p.213)
Start/Complete Full-Round Action
The "start full-round action" standard action lets you start undertaking a full-round action, which you can complete in the following round by using another standard action. You can't use this action to start or complete a full attack, charge, run, or withdraw. (p.186)
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A caster can start casting a 1 round casting time spell (such as sleep, summon monster, etc.) as a standard action. He might do this if casting in the surprise round or because he has previously used his move action.
He can then finish it by consuming his standard action in the following round. When does the spell come into effect?
Assuming he can do it at all (as a full round action =/= a full round casting time), it would come into effect after he completed his second standard action, rather than just before his second turn.
A caster can start casting a 1 round casting time spell (such as sleep, summon monster, etc.) as a standard action. He might do this if casting in the surprise round or because he has previously used his move action.
He can then finish it by consuming his standard action in the following round. When does the spell come into effect?
Well, I think you answered your own question from your first rules quote:
A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed. (p.213)
So basically you 'begin' to cast Sleep on round 1, at the start of your initiative turn on round 2, Sleep goes off, then you are able to take your turn for round 2.
So basically you cast Sleep on round 1, at the beginning of your initiative turn on round 2, Sleep goes off, then you are able to take your turn for round 2.
You're missing the point.
During the Surprise Round you take a standard action to begin casting sleep.During Round 1 you take a standard action to finish casting sleep.
When does sleep go off?
Surprise round:
You begin to cast Sleep.
Everyone else takes their surprise round intitiatives, if they are able to do so.
Round 1 begins, your intitiative comes up, Sleep goes off at the beginning of your turn. Then you are able to use your turn normally on Round 1.
Sleep going off does not burn a standard action the round it goes into effect, it just does it at the beginning of your turn.
Surprise round:
You begin to cast Sleep.
Everyone else takes their surprise round intitiatives, if they are able to do so.
Round 1 begins, your intitiative comes up, Sleep goes off at the beginning of your turn. Then you are able to use your turn normally on Round 1.
Sleep going off does not burn a standard action the round it goes into effect, it just does it at the beginning of your turn.
That doesn't make sense to me. Sleep has a 1 round casting time, so it takes a full-round action to cast. How are you getting that you can cast it with just a single standard action?
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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That doesn't make sense to me. Sleep has a 1 round casting time, so it takes a full-round action to cast. How are you getting that you can cast it with just a single standard action?Surprise round:
You begin to cast Sleep.
Everyone else takes their surprise round intitiatives, if they are able to do so.
Round 1 begins, your intitiative comes up, Sleep goes off at the beginning of your turn. Then you are able to use your turn normally on Round 1.
Sleep going off does not burn a standard action the round it goes into effect, it just does it at the beginning of your turn.
Agreed. The OP ruling effectively makes full round spells better than they otherwise would be by letting them be cast as a single standard action in the surprise round.
BTW, does anyone know if the two standard actions to cast a full round spell is a rules change? I had always played it that if you cast a full round spell in the surprise round, you lost your move in the next action, rather than the standard, to complete the casting.
You are mixing up a ‘full-round action’ with a ‘full round casting time’ .
Look at the Sleep spell. It says the casting time is a ‘full round’, not full round action. A full round action is resolved in one round. A full round casting time takes until the next round to go into effect, but it does so at the beginning of the character’s turn who casted the spell.
To further the example.
Surprise round:
You begin to cast Sleep, targeting an area with three kobolds.
The fighter gets his surprise round action. He shoots one of the kobolds and kills him.
Your Wizard casts Scorching Ray, kills the remaining kobolds.
Round 1 begins. Your intitiative comes up, Sleep goes off. However, the kobolds you targeted are now dead. Sleep fizzles. However, you are able to now act as you still have your round 2 intiative to use.
Sleep is not a full round action, it is a spell that takes a full round to cast. It doesn't mean it takes up two actions, it is just letting you know other things can happen in that full round while you are casting the spell.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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That is not correct. A spell with a casting time of 1 full round is also a full-round action. From the PFSRD:
A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.
You are mixing up a ‘full-round action’ with a ‘full round casting time’.
I'm not. I'm paying attention to the PF rules text, that has now been quoted twice in this thread alone, stating that 1 round spell requires a full-round action to cast.
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BTW, does anyone know if the two standard actions to cast a full round spell is a rules change? I had always played it that if you cast a full round spell in the surprise round, you lost your move in the next action, rather than the standard, to complete the casting.
It isn't a change from 3.5. Your way is a common error, though.
That is not correct. A spell with a casting time of 1 full round is also a full-round action. From the PFSRD:
A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.
Ok, I see what you are saying. I missed that first part. Even quoted it above. lol
Not sure why they did that, you could actually use a full round casting time without making it a full round action. Not sure what their purpose was on doing that.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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BTW, does anyone know if the two standard actions to cast a full round spell is a rules change? I had always played it that if you cast a full round spell in the surprise round, you lost your move in the next action, rather than the standard, to complete the casting.It isn't a change from 3.5. Your way is a common error, though.
Thanks.
It's always funny the little things that slip in and that become part of your play style.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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That is not correct. A spell with a casting time of 1 full round is also a full-round action. From the PFSRD:
A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.
Ok, I see what you are saying. I missed that first part. Even quoted it above. lol
Not sure why they did that, you could actually use a full round casting time without making it a full round action. Not sure what their purpose was on doing that.
No worries - full round casting is already counter-intuitive and breaks the expected rules. It's the only action I can think of where the term "full round" means literally a full round instead of your move + standard action.
You are mixing up a ‘full-round action’ with a ‘full round casting time’ .
Look at the Sleep spell. It says the casting time is a ‘full round’, not full round action. A full round action is resolved in one round. A full round casting time takes until the next round to go into effect, but it does so at the beginning of the character’s turn who casted the spell.
To further the example.
Surprise round:
You begin to cast Sleep, targeting an area with three kobolds.
The fighter gets his surprise round action. He shoots one of the kobolds and kills him.
Your Wizard casts Scorching Ray, kills the remaining kobolds.
Round 1 begins. Your intitiative comes up, Sleep goes off. However, the kobolds you targeted are now dead. Sleep fizzles. However, you are able to now act as you still have your round 2 intiative to use.
Sleep is not a full round action, it is a spell that takes a full round to cast. It doesn't mean it takes up two actions, it is just letting you know other things can happen in that full round while you are casting the spell.
I have to agree with the others here, the Surprise round only allows you a half-round (one move or standard action), so to cast a full-round casting time spell, you must start it with the "Start full round" action. To complete it, you must expend your standard action in the next round, at which point it comes into effect, and you still have a move action to use.
I have to agree with the others here, the Surprise round only allows you a half-round (one move or standard action), so to cast a full-round casting time spell, you must start it with the "Start full round" action. To complete it, you must expend your standard action in the next round, at which point it comes into effect, and you still have a move action to use.
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You are mixing up a ‘full-round action’ with a ‘full round casting time’ .
Look at the Sleep spell. It says the casting time is a ‘full round’, not full round action. A full round action is resolved in one round. A full round casting time takes until the next round to go into effect, but it does so at the beginning of the character’s turn who casted the spell.
To further the example.
Surprise round:
You begin to cast Sleep, targeting an area with three kobolds.
The fighter gets his surprise round action. He shoots one of the kobolds and kills him.
Your Wizard casts Scorching Ray, kills the remaining kobolds.
Round 1 begins. Your intitiative comes up, Sleep goes off. However, the kobolds you targeted are now dead. Sleep fizzles. However, you are able to now act as you still have your round 2 intiative to use.
Sleep is not a full round action, it is a spell that takes a full round to cast. It doesn't mean it takes up two actions, it is just letting you know other things can happen in that full round while you are casting the spell.
With the exception of casting a full round spell with only a standard action, Hobbun's first post is absolutely correct (although, you don't have to choose targets until you complete the casting of a spell, do it doesn't necessarily have to fizzle).
A spell that take 1 round to cast starts on the initiative count of round 1, and completes just before the same initiative count in round 2. In order to begin the process, however, the caster has to spend a full round action in round 1.
With the exception of spontaneous spellcasters utilizing metamagic, I've never heard of a spell taking only a full round action to cast (and going off in the same round).
Give me some time, and I will put together some definitive rules quotes for you.
EDIT:
Most spells have a casting time of 1 standard action. Others take 1 round or more, while a few require only a swift action.
A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.
A spell that takes 1 minute to cast comes into effect just before your turn 1 minute later (and for each of those 10 rounds, you are casting a spell as a full-round action, just as noted above for 1-round casting times). These actions must be consecutive and uninterrupted, or the spell automatically fails.
When you begin a spell that takes 1 round or longer to cast, you must continue the concentration from the current round to just before your turn in the next round (at least). If you lose concentration before the casting is complete, you lose the spell.
A spell with a casting time of 1 swift action doesn't count against your normal limit of one spell per round. However, you may cast such a spell only once per round. Casting a spell with a casting time of 1 swift action doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.
You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect.
As you can clearly see, though you only spend a full round action to get it started, you actually spend the ENTIRE round casting the spell. If, after spending your full round action, you get shot before your next turn, you have to make a concentration check or lose the spell because you were shot WHILE spellcasting.
Now look at the rules for applying metamagic spontaneously:
For a spell with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the spell.
Spontaneous Casting and Metamagic Feats: A cleric spontaneously casting a cure or inflict spell, or a druid spontaneously casting a summon nature's ally spell, can cast a metamagic version of it instead. Extra time is also required in this case. Casting a standard action metamagic spell spontaneously is a full-round action, and a spell with a longer casting time takes an extra full-round action to cast. The only exception is for spells modified by the Quicken Spell feat, which can be cast as a swift action.
It clearly states that casting a spell as a full round action (as per metamagic) and casting a spell with a 1 round casting time are NOT the same thing. If it was always a full round action as you suggest, then there would be no need for such a statement.
Round 1:
You begin to cast Sleep as a full round action, targeting an area with three kobolds. The spell does NOT trigger.
The fighter takes his turn and shoots one of the kobolds and kills him.
Your Wizard friend casts Scorching Ray and kills the remaining two kobolds.
Round 2 begins. Your initiative comes up, but just before your turn starts sleep goes off. Frustrated that your allies once again stole your kills, you target them with sleep instead. You then spend your full round worth of actions looting the kobold bodies alone.
EXAMPLE TWO (possibly legal, essentially what is being asked by the OP)
Surprise Round:
You begin to cast Sleep as a standard action, targeting an area with three kobolds. The spell does NOT trigger.
The fighter takes his surprise round action and shoots one of the kobolds and kills him.
Your Wizard friend casts Scorching Ray and kills the remaining two kobolds with his single action.
Round 1 begins. Your intitiative comes up and you spend a second standard action to finish casting sleep. Frustrated that your allies once again stole your kills, you target them with sleep instead and use your remaining move action to move up to the kobold corpses in preparation to loot them in the following round, alone.
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You have to combine two separate rules to resolve this issue.
Core Rulebook p213..."A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed."
Core Rulebook p186..."The 'start full round action' standard action lets you start undertaking a full-round action, which you can complete in the following round by using another standard action."
So clearly, you can start a Sleep spell in the surprise round using your standard action. Then complete the spell by spending another standard action during round one of normal initiative. It does not specifically state as such, but logic dictates that the spell would "go off" immediately after the second standard action. The caster would still have his normal move and swift actions remaining.
EDIT: damn board ninja's ;)
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Assuming he can do it at all (as a full round action =/= a full round casting time), it would come into effect after he completed his second standard action, rather than just before his second turn.
I appreciate that a 1 round casting time and a full round casting time are not the same thing. The spell comes into effect at different times when contrasting the two. However, they are both full round actions. A full round action can be started as standard action.
You've twice called into question that the 1 round casting time can be split: here and in your long post regarding metamagic. What is your basis for calling it into question?
I appreciate that a 1 round casting time and a full round casting time are not the same thing. The spell comes into effect at different times when contrasting the two. However, they are both full round actions. A full round action can be started as standard action.
That's right as far as I know.
You've twice called into question that the 1 round casting time can be split: here and in your long post regarding metamagic. What is your basis for calling it into question?
I'm just uncertain on account of the rules being unclear on the matter, that's all.
I'm sure its allowed, but different people may come up with different interpretations on how to handle it, so I'm simply treading carefully.
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The spell takes effect at the beginning of the next turn ("It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell"), however you can't perform other actions until you are done with spellcasting -another standard action ("You then act normally after the spell is completed").
Diferent and weird order, same outcome.
So Ike, if started in surprise round, your take would be that it would come into effect at the beginning of caster's turn in round 1, before he finished the spell?
What would happen if he, for some reason, didn't finish the spell? (Maybe someone readies an action to attack him if he continues to cast....this seems a little odd, but let's go with it.)
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I think it's reasonable to take as a postulate that a spell cannot come into effect until the casting is finished.
In the case of sleep cast in the surprise round, the time cost of delayed effect is that it didn't happen in the surprise round. If the spell must be completed, then effect after the standard action required to complete is the reasonable point in time.
I think everyone is in agreement (Hobbun misunderstood, Ike would rule this way as well).
Is there any argument that it doesn't come into effect until the caster's initiative in the second round of the sleep in the surprise round example?
Is there any argument that it doesn't come into effect until the caster's initiative in the second round of the sleep in the surprise round example?
I personally believe that if he starts casting it in the surprise round, the spell triggers not before his turn, but AFTER he finishes his second standard action (to complete the pseudo-full round action).
RAW, it would seem that the spell would take effect just before the beginning of the caster's turn in round 1, before the spell is actually completed. This, of course, does not make much sense.
It might be reasonable to rule that the spell does not take effect until after the caster had used a standard action to complete the spell.
However, what if this were a sorcerer, casting an extended Shield? (a full-round action)
He uses a standard action in the surprise round to start a full-round action, and a standard action in round 1 to complete it. The spell takes effect after it's completed. The RAW is very simple. The part that doesn't scan is, in this situation a full-round spell takes exactly as long to cast as a 1 round spell.
Clearly, it would seem, Sleep should take longer to cast than the extended Shield. Coming into effect sometime after the end of his turn on round 1 and before the beginning of his turn on round 2.
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RAW, it would seem that the spell would take effect just before the beginning of the caster's turn in round 1, before the spell is actually completed. This, of course, does not make much sense.
Actually RAW does not infer that, as the RAW is stating the timing AFTER you have used a full round action. Since you have only used a standard action so far, the RAW you are quoting does not apply. By extrapolating though, since under normal conditions(i.e. you have used a full round action) and it is a full round of initiative count since the spell casting was started when it goes off, then a full round spell initiated by a standard action would go off immediately after the second standard action was completed.
RAW, it would seem that the spell would take effect just before the beginning of the caster's turn in round 1, before the spell is actually completed.
This is what I had thought originally, as well. And I was summarily corrected (and rightfully so). The way we have been using full round spells (in our campaign) is that the spell activates at the beginning of your turn on the second round (or next round you started casting the spell).
However, when we had used it was in 3.5, I am not sure to be honest if 3.5 rules state a full round casting spell is a full round action. If it does, we have been doing it wrong all along.
In most situations, full round spells still works out fine as you still get the spell off in the same round. But in the unique situation the OP brought up, it just lets you know there are almost always better options than to cast a full round spell on a surprise round (as it burns up two standard actions).
After all this mess, I think I am just going to house rule that if a spell requires more than a standard action to cast, then you cannot cast, or start to cast, it in a surprise round.
So for all intent & purpose any caster in question may receive two attacks of opportunity during a spell that takes one full round to complete.
So for all intensive purposes any caster in question may receive two attacks of opportunity during a spell that takes one full round to complete.
It depends on how you interpret a surprise round. If you have surprise on an enemy, then nothing you do in the surprise round should trigger an AoO or any other response from the surprised enemy. Isn't that what surprised normally means, that the surprised person doesn't do anything at all til the next round?
I have to admit, that is another interesting dilemma. If you actually cast adjacent to an opponent during the surprise round (although not sure why you would), would that negate your surprise (as he can hear you) and therefore allow him the AoO?
Edit: Actually, the more I think about it, I would say no. Considering you could be hiding (Stealth) next to an opponent and then attack normally during the surprise round and not lose your surprise. I don’t see why it would be different in casting a spell.
Now, when you are finishing the spell on the 1st round of combat (and use up your second standard action), you would provoke the AoO.
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Casting in the surprise round does not negate the surprise as it is the surprise action(just like attacking someone). The AoO is triggered when you start the triggering action, so if the person does not take it then, he does not get to do it the next round when the caster uses the second standard action(as this is just a continuation of his action). Unless a player has Combat Reflexes he doesn't get an AoO when flat footed.
So I have two options when casting my Summon Monster I:
Option 1 - Cast as a full-round action: Begin casting on my turn, use my entire turn to cast (Standard and Move), and continue casting during everyone else's turn. At the beginning of my next turn, assuming I didn't get shot and interrupted or whatever, my spell finishes, my badger appears and acts immediately, and I can then take my turn as normal.
Option 2 - Cast using the 'start full round action' standard action: I use my Move action for whatever I want (or it's not available, such as in a Suprise round). I use my standard action to 'start full round action' and continue casting during everyone else's turn. At the beginning of my next turn, assuming no interruption, I use my Standard action to 'complete full-round action', and upon completion, my badger appears and acts immediately. I can then take my Move action if I want.
Yes?
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After all this mess, I think I am just going to house rule that if a spell requires more than a standard action to cast, then you cannot cast, or start to cast, it in a surprise round.
No need to take such drastic measures.
Simply consider that full round casting effectively takes up two standard actions (one in the surprise round, the second in Round 1), then you can still move in the second part of your action in Round 1.
That seems to be the RAI, am I right?
The easiest way to handle this is to simply treat the surprise round as a full round for the purposes of casting. This is also consistent with the surprise round counting as a full round for spell duration and for making charge attacks.
Reserve the "splitting over two rounds" for the rare instances where a caster wants to move, then begin casting a longer casting time spell.
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The easiest way to handle this is to simply treat the surprise round as a full round for the purposes of casting. This is also consistent with the surprise round counting as a full round for spell duration and for making charge attacks.
Reserve the "splitting over two rounds" for the rare instances where a caster wants to move, then begin casting a longer casting time spell.
Interesting take on it, and not one that I've heard before. I'm not sure I like it from the perspective of action economics, but interesting.
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Personally i'd like clarification on the 2 scentences
"A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action"
and
"casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn't the same as a 1-round casting time.)"
They seem to directly contradict one another and specifically state a difference between full round actions and spells requiring 1 round to cast.
There is no contraction.
Both activities require a full-round action. The 1 round casting time takes effect at the beginning of the caster's next turn. The spontaneous metamagicked spell takes effect at the end of the caster's current turn.
Object A is a member of set Q.
Object B is a member of set Q (but isn't an A).
Both A and B are members of set Q; there is no requirement that A and B are equivelant, and in this case they are explicitly not equivelant.
Personally i'd like clarification on the 2 scentences
"A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action"
and
"casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn't the same as a 1-round casting time.)"
They seem to directly contradict one another and specifically state a difference between full round actions and spells requiring 1 round to cast.
There is no contraction.
The first case really does require a full round to cast (as in, you are continuously casting all the way up until before your next turn). However, since you can't give up more than a full round action in a round, it only says to give up a full round action to represent you spending all your actions casting. If you were struck for damage after you used up that full round action, but before the spell goes off, you would still need to make a concentration check as you were struck during the casting of the spell.
In the second case, you spend the full round action to cast the spell, except the spell goes off as soon as you complete the action, not before your turn in the next round. This means that, unless you provoke an AoO or somebody readied an action against you, your spellcasting cannot be interrupted as per the first situation above.
Summary: 1st case, spell goes off in what is essentially the start of your next turn. 2nd case, spell goes off at the end of your current turn.
Does that help?
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There is no contraction.Both activities require a full-round action. The 1 round casting time takes effect at the beginning of the caster's next turn. The spontaneous metamagicked spell takes effect at the end of the caster's current turn.
While I agree with you, I think it could be spelled out more clearly as to what you are doing in the time between your turns.
Specifically can you cast an immediate action spell before the 1 round casting time spell goes off? Can you make an AOO?
Explicitly, you are continuing to cast the spell: "When you begin a spell that takes 1 round or longer to cast, you must continue the invocations, gestures, and concentration from 1 round to just before your turn in the next round (at least). If youlose concentration after starting the spell and before it is complete, you lose the spell." (p. 187)
Explicitly, you cannot make an AoO while casting: "While casting a spell,you don't threaten any squares around you." (ibid)
I think it would be reasonable for you to stop casting and give up the spell in order to either take an immediate action or an AoO.
Actually RAW does not infer that, as the RAW is stating the timing AFTER you have used a full round action. Since you have only used a standard action so far, the RAW you are quoting does not apply. By extrapolating though, since under normal conditions(i.e. you have used a full round action) and it is a full round of initiative count since the spell casting was started when it goes off, then a full round spell initiated by a standard action would go off immediately after the second standard action was completed.RAW, it would seem that the spell would take effect just before the beginning of the caster's turn in round 1, before the spell is actually completed. This, of course, does not make much sense.
If the RAW doesn't apply to this situation, then, there is no RAW for this situation. Furthermore, your "extrapolation" ignores the second part of my post, i.e. a spell with a casting time of 1 round should take longer to cast than a spell with a casting time of a full-round action.