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Hello all,
How do you GM's out there determine comeliness? I have a barbarian in my group, he has a charisma of 7....yet he constantly speaks of how beautiful his character is. Not he plays up his 7 charisma in his character with its cleanliness and matters of that nature.
But can a 7 charisma be attractive or "hot"?
Could brad pitt be a 7 charisma if he had a horrible personality?
What about say Scarlett Johansson
Do you just let the player determine this? Do you create a new ability score for it?
I was considering having players roll 2d6+6...and I was considering then modifying it by charisma modifier
So lets say my players barbarian had a roll of 18 for comeliness...it would be a 16 due to his charisma
Also how would you mechanically handle "romance"...diplomacy? bluff?
Opinions?
While appearance can be a factor in Charisma, I always assume the most important factor in charisma is force of personality. After all, a sorcerer or bard aren't fueling their spells via the silky sheen of their hair.
To me, a Charisma 7 character who is beautiful would be the kind of person who makes a great first impression walking into the room--but then makes everyone groan as soon as they open their mouth. You can be pretty and have poor social skills or be without the "it factor" often tied to good leadership. The stereotypical "blonde bimbo" would be a good example--lovely to look at, but incapable of persuasiveness, let alone articulateness.
Alternately, you can have the greying, jowly, crooked toothed admiral with the skin of a dried orange peel who nonetheless is loved and obeyed by all his subordinate officers because when he walks into the room, he invisibly commands it without ever speaking a word.
As beauty is often in the eye of the beholder, I tend to not bother quantifying it with a stat. (The dispel magic cone makes it hard to track anyway.*)
But if you really want a comeliness score... if you happen to have or find a 2nd Edition AD&D Unearthed Arcana, the rules for Comeliness can probably be adapted easily enough. IIRC you rolled comeliness just like any other stat, but then your charisma score modified it up or down (because if you can rock that beautiful smile by putting genuine confidence behind it, it is more effective). Your method would probably also work, though a guaranteed comeliness of at least 8 may be high.
I would not mechanically handle romance or even "romance." I would leave it to the roleplayers' discretion and rp it out as common sense and player willingness dictated.
* Ignore that if it made no sense to you.
I suspect you're seeing a lot of 7 or lower Charisma scores because, mecahnically, there is no reason for anyone except Sorcerers and Bards to have a Cha higher than 3. If you want to exacerbate that by adding a Cms stat and thus decreasing even the "fluff" appeal of Charisma, then may I suggest a couple of minor changes:
Hello all,
How do you GM's out there determine comeliness? I have a barbarian in my group, he has a charisma of 7....yet he constantly speaks of how beautiful his character is. Not he plays up his 7 charisma in his character with its cleanliness and matters of that nature.
But can a 7 charisma be attractive or "hot"?
Could brad pitt be a 7 charisma if he had a horrible personality?
What about say Scarlett Johansson
Do you just let the player determine this? Do you create a new ability score for it?
I was considering having players roll 2d6+6...and I was considering then modifying it by charisma modifier
So lets say my players barbarian had a roll of 18 for comeliness...it would be a 16 due to his charisma
Also how would you mechanically handle "romance"...diplomacy? bluff?
Opinions?
I haven't seen a real need to reintroduce comeliness, but I know people who do, for the precise reason that many players immediately think charisma is a direct representation of physical attractiveness. IMHO, physical beauty is just one component of charisma, and not that big of a component, at that. Being human, we certainly all judge people by their looks all the time, until we actually have to interact with them, when other factors rush to the fore. Surely, everybody knows some people who are just stunning to look at, but you want to run screaming in the other direction as soon as they open their mouth and stupid, annoying or insulting things come tumbling out.
As for handling romance, ceratainly physical attractiveness comes more into play, particularly for one-night stands and casual relationships. Less so for more serious stuff. You probably also know couples that are physical mismatches - one is much more attractive than the other - which likely come about because factors other than physical attractiveness come into play. For diplomacy and bluff, physical attractiveness has much less to do with it, although you can't eliminate it as a factor.
Hello all,
How do you GM's out there determine comeliness? I have a barbarian in my group, he has a charisma of 7....yet he constantly speaks of how beautiful his character is. Not he plays up his 7 charisma in his character with its cleanliness and matters of that nature.
But can a 7 charisma be attractive or "hot"?
Could brad pitt be a 7 charisma if he had a horrible personality?
What about say Scarlett Johansson
Do you just let the player determine this? Do you create a new ability score for it?
I was considering having players roll 2d6+6...and I was considering then modifying it by charisma modifier
So lets say my players barbarian had a roll of 18 for comeliness...it would be a 16 due to his charisma
Also how would you mechanically handle "romance"...diplomacy? bluff?
Opinions?
I generally allow characters to be as hawt as they want to be. That usually means that the entire party looks like models but ehhh...
I try not to tie Cha and Comliness together too much. Though I do assume high Cha characters look better than others if their players want them to. If someone really wants to be prettier and have an in-game mechanic to prove it I allow them to use the trait Charming from the APG
Charming: Blessed with good looks, you’ve come to
depend on the fact that others find you attractive. You
gain a +1 trait bonus when you use Bluff or Diplomacy on a
character that is (or could be) sexually attracted to you, and
a +1 trait bonus to the save DC of any language-dependent
spell you cast on such characters or creatures.
All that said, with low Charisma characters I assume at least part of it is Bad looks or Bad smell or something that offends unless told otherwise. If told that the character is with the low Cha is gorgeous but has a bad personality I'm really gonna want to see that played out.
So yes Brad can have a 7 Cha and still be hot.
I wouldn't go through the trouble of creating another stat to represent Com. unless it really floats your boat. If it does your mechanic works as well as any I can think of... and I like that its modified by Cha.
As far as romance in game, I try to keep that as far away from the dice as possible. Maybe a Diplomacy role or two to get things rolling (first dates and such) but beyond that I let the players run with it. This assumes the player is trying to date the local Bar-maid and not the Archwizard from the tower down the street who he's gonna borrow magic items from. Archwizards and Princes and such are more demanding and I would require the character to do alot to keep them happy. Less rolling interactions and more along the line of "Baby, I'd love to spend time with you but that horde the next kingdom over/ green dragon who has the reagent I need is calling.... unless, maybe... you could go take care of it."
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A low charisma person could certainly be hot, just as a homely person can be very charismatic.
A certain German dictator comes to mind. Certainly higher than average charisma, but he was not an attractive man. For the other extreme, look at some of your Hollywood actors or Supermodels. Mel Gibson for example. Just about any woman you ask still finds him very attractive, but some of his actions over the last decade or so certainly move his likability down a few notches.
In game? I'd let each player determine his own characters attractiveness. Yeah, you'll have some players who always have the 'hot' PCs, but who cares? It doesn't actually affect anything in game.
My current Kingmaker PC is a Half-orc Bard with one eye that has been blind since birth and most of the time he refuses to cover it up. He also has more bestial features than your average Half-orc. In short, not a beautiful guy, but he is quick with a joke or a song, and is genuinely likable.
Hitler had a phenominal charisma, but he was no looker :) Yet up until the middle of the war or should I say until Brittain got involved everybody loved him :) Literally :) Untill Pearl Harbour the American Public Loved him... and he was Ugly... Charisma is a force of personality... there were lots of snobby girls in highschool that you just hated but man they were cute :) Comelyness is what you look like and Charisma is your personality, and then there is what you act like...
Back in the day there was a comliness stat for a while in 2nd edition. Check out the old Unearthed Arcana or Dragon Magozines from the late 80's early 90's for that one...
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In short, not a beautiful guy, but he is quick with a joke or a song, and is genuinely likable.
He's quick with a joke, or to light up your smoke, man what are you doing here....
But back to seriousness or some facsimilie
You know I like the idea of the campaign trait. My group is 100% vain and occasionally argues who is best looking when they all fight over the local barmaid...and of course all our women think they are Disney princess or pirates
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Quickest fix I ever made to my games is by instituting charisma as the stat that determines a characters luck. Once in a while I will arbitrarily decide that something bad, dumb, unfortunate might occur and I have the players roll charisma checks as luck.
It has done the trick to cut down on the stat dump.
Quickest fix I ever made to my games is by instituting charisma as the stat that determines a characters luck. Once in a while I will arbitrarily decide that something bad, dumb, unfortunate might occur and I have the players roll charisma checks as luck.
It has done the trick to cut down on the stat dump.
I kind of like that -- especially if it were codified in some manner other than "DM license to pick on the PC."
Characters look how they want. Charisma is diplomacy and intimidate - making an impression with a person after they've met you.
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Others have pretty much covered things pretty well. In our group we use a appearance score. The only real effect it has, is in some social settings it can boost social skill rolls at times. We also roll the 4d6 method and what ever the last roll is, that's your App score or higher. So if you rolled a 9 you could put that 15 you rolled in it. But if you rolled a 18 you couldn't swap in a 9. We did that cause we have one power gamer that would always put his low score there.
As a group we tend to go for character concepts not what is most effective. We have high Chr wizards or high str ones, or high int Fighters if it fits the concept. They make less effective at their class than they could be granted but they make for more interesting characters typically.
The Book of Erotic Fantasy actually already has a lot of these rules that the OP is looking for. Some of the stuff in that book isn't bad at all. Just avoid the cheese that is Metaphysical Spellshaper.
Creative Director
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In my games, I leave it entirely up to the player (or in the case of an adventure or supplement, up to the designer or artist) to decide how ugly or beautiful/handsome a character is. If the decision is an extreme at either end and the Charisma is opposite what you might expect, then that just tells me that the character is particularly airheadded or forceful in personality.
At the same point, though, I DO tend to weigh Charisma as an appearance score. All other aspects of a character being equal, that is.
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While appearance can be a factor in Charisma, I always assume the most important factor in charisma is force of personality. After all, a sorcerer or bard aren't fueling their spells via the silky sheen of their hair.
Speak for yourself. My bard is completely dependent on "Pantene power" to fuel his spells. And my sorcerer would be impotent without the spell boosting effects of Dunhill cologne...
I think we all know some people whose attractiveness or persuasiveness is all out of proportion to their physical appearance.
Let it ride, I say!
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Hello all,
How do you GM's out there determine comeliness? I have a barbarian in my group, he has a charisma of 7....yet he constantly speaks of how beautiful his character is. Not he plays up his 7 charisma in his character with its cleanliness and matters of that nature.
But can a 7 charisma be attractive or "hot"?
Could brad pitt be a 7 charisma if he had a horrible personality?
What about say Scarlett Johansson
Do you just let the player determine this? Do you create a new ability score for it?
I was considering having players roll 2d6+6...and I was considering then modifying it by charisma modifier
So lets say my players barbarian had a roll of 18 for comeliness...it would be a 16 due to his charisma
Also how would you mechanically handle "romance"...diplomacy? bluff?
Opinions?
I haven't seen a real need to reintroduce comeliness, but I know people who do, for the precise reason that many players immediately think charisma is a direct representation of physical attractiveness. IMHO, physical beauty is just one component of charisma, and not that big of a component, at that. Being human, we certainly all judge people by their looks all the time, until we actually have to interact with them, when other factors rush to the fore. Surely, everybody knows some people who are just stunning to look at, but you want to run screaming in the other direction as soon as they open their mouth and stupid, annoying or insulting things come tumbling out.
As for handling romance, ceratainly physical attractiveness comes more into play, particularly for one-night stands and casual relationships. Less so for more serious stuff. You probably also know couples that are physical mismatches - one is much more attractive than the other - which likely come about because factors other than physical attractiveness come into play. For diplomacy and bluff, physical attractiveness has much less to do with it, although you can't eliminate it as a factor.
Funny, Cadogan has a comeliness score...
I've always run with comliness and charisma sort of seperated.
I start with a 4d6 roll keep the best 3 with some racial modifiers. Half-orcs only get 3d6, elves get 5d6 but still keep three. Weirder races I have to make up as I go along.
Then you add your charisma modifier, so those 7 charisma folk might be very pretty, but effectively their comliness is a bit lowered.
Then you get +1 for ever 5 ranks in acrobatics, since I figure the carefully trained grace of someone with high ranks in it is very attractive.
Think about Sean Connery. If you look at his face he is moderately attractive, but not amazingly so. Still he has charisma and it makes people attracted to him.
Also I will say the charisma seems to play a much bigger role in my game than most of the other poster's games. I tend to call for diplomacy checks plenty, particularly when they go shopping.
Druids want it in my game since I use Wild Empathy a lot. I use it for a lot more things than just animals. Elementals, plants and some magical beasts. But also things like sensing the feel of nature around them, knowing when something horrifically unnatural is nearby or any other druidy type things.
Clerics and Paladins want is since if they want to promote this church is usually requires diplomacy or perform-oratory (something that all of them have been interested in, and I applaud). Also I allow them to sometimes call on their god for extra aid. This is party RP and part charisma check.
Rogues like it because it helps if they decide to take the roll of party "face" and when they want to lie.
It still ends up as a dump stat plenty, but it is definately not a neglected stat in my campaign.
Beautiful, yes. Attractive, not really.
A character with cha 7 that is described as very beautiful might look great, but is overlooked nevertheless. There's something "wrong" with the physical beauty that fails to make them really attractive. They have a really hard time using their beauty to their advantage.
People probably dismiss them as a "doll" - looking good because they're not really real, and probably unable to contribute to anything, because they're just decoration.
Charisma, like the other ability scores, represents a whole bunch of traits that are not necessarily related in real life.
Likeability is not necessarily the same as leadership or decisiveness, which is not necessarily the same as persuasiveness. Charisma, in the game, can be used to entertain, as well as to seem serious, to persuade as well as to intimidate or to attract, to lie as well as to cast spells. It is an all-in one social ability score that at the same time also has non-social roles (spellcasting for some classes). Some of these functions of this ability score are not only unrelated in real life, but even tend to be in outright opposition to one another.
As such, in my games, I rule that being the social statistic, Charisma does influence looks, even though some aspects of the ability score do not necessarily mesh with it well (e.g. spellcasting).
Somebody mentioned that Charisma can also serve as luck in their games. Well, it does in mine too (I used to have a separate "Luck" ability score, but later decided to integrate it into Charisma). I have my own Luck Point System, which is similar to the action point system (though there are some important differences) and high Charisma gives characters extra Luck Points (similar to action points). These can then be expended on modifying rolls as well as on other things (though there are various twists with regard to doing so).
If you are really wanting to go back to putting a stat with comeliness, here's how they did it back in the dark ages in the 1st ed. Unearthed Arcana. (i.e. when I started playing)
1. Determine you base statistic based on whatever rolling method you are using (3d6, 4d6 drop lowest etc.)
2. Adjust comeliness score based on charisma score.
CHA.......Comeliness Adjustment
<3........-8
3.........-5
4-5.......-3
6-8.......-1
9-12.......0
13-15.....+1
16-17.....+2
18........+3
>18.......+5
3. Adjust score based on Race. (These modifiers only apply for purposes of dealing with other races.)
Half-Orc -3
Dwarves, Gnomes -1
Halflings, Humans 0
Half-Elf, Sylvan Elf +1
High Elf, Gray Elf +2
There was a whole list of revulsion - fascination effects based on what your final score was.
Last thing to note, the maximum ability score possible back in those days was 25, with the exception of comeliness which maxed out at 30.
I kind of like that -- especially if it were codified in some manner other than "DM license to pick on the PC."Quickest fix I ever made to my games is by instituting charisma as the stat that determines a characters luck. Once in a while I will arbitrarily decide that something bad, dumb, unfortunate might occur and I have the players roll charisma checks as luck.
It has done the trick to cut down on the stat dump.
Assassin 2: "Hey, don't shoot that one, he's got a cute butt."
More seriously, have the high Charisma people invited to parties, offered free drinks, defended by suitors, etc.
The ugly ones can't get past the bouncer, get bad service or completely missed by the bar wench if they do get inside, always get the medal last (wait, Chewie didn't get a medal? BOOOO), and a host of other social slights.
The idea of rolling for your character's appearance just blows my mind.
"My character is a large and powerfully built barbarian warrior. His face is scarred and lean, and his moustache naturally curls into a snarl."
"No, you're a *roll roll* obese and squat one! And your face *roll roll* is pudgy and you have massive overbite!"
Who would do this in anything other then a "Hah hah let's try out this crazy idea" style one-shot?
The idea of rolling for your character's appearance just blows my mind.
"My character is a large and powerfully built barbarian warrior. His face is scarred and lean, and his moustache naturally curls into a snarl."
"No, you're a *roll roll* obese and squat one! And your face *roll roll* is pudgy and you have massive overbite!"
Who would do this in anything other then a "Hah hah let's try out this crazy idea" style one-shot?
Several systems I can think of off hand and at least 4 different groups I've played in over the year. I'll usually over rule it if they have a good character concept where they really need a specific appearance.
The idea of rolling for your character's appearance just blows my mind.
"My character is a large and powerfully built barbarian warrior. His face is scarred and lean, and his moustache naturally curls into a snarl."
"No, you're a *roll roll* obese and squat one! And your face *roll roll* is pudgy and you have massive overbite!"
Who would do this in anything other then a "Hah hah let's try out this crazy idea" style one-shot?
That's more a problem of "rolling for stats sucks" not a problem of "appearance should not be part of the stats."
It's just like saying "I'm playing a smart wizard" *roll roll* "No, you're dumb as wood."
That's why purchase is the way to go.
Plus, if we want appearance as a stat, we should go all the way. Not just have seven stats. Go with 9 - the ones from WoD:
3 physical, 3 mental, 3 social attributes. Each category has power, finesse and resistance:
Strength, Dexterity, Constitution
Intelligence, Wits (i.e thinking fast, thinking "on your feet", also used for perceptive stuff), Resolve (mental resistance, used for willpower and so on)
Presence (includes beauty, but can also be general imprssiveness), Manipulation (talking to people to change their opinion), Composure (social resistance, used to keep from flipping out, getting flustered, or getting scared)
Or you could go back to the old WoD and you would have:
Physical - Strength, Dexterity, Stamina
Social - Charisma, Manipulation, Appearance
Mental - Perception, Intelligence, Wits
there was a beuty stat in a 3.x ogl book too....umm that one with the chain mail bikinni I think it was.....oh well go figure
When it comes to looks I separate Cha and Comliness... except when I don't. :D
When it comes to looks I bear two things in mind. First, taste has a lot to do with appearance and attractiveness. I know more than one girl who has gone flutter-eyed and weak-kneed over guys I thought were trolls. When beautiy is in the eye of the beholder, Charisma scores win out. To put it another way, the player gets to decide what the character's portrait would look like, and Cha determines how many people act attracted to him/her.
Second, the player with the highest Cha score character wins any argument over wehose character is best looking. If the 7 Cha barbarian is hawtness that's fine, but the 16 Cha war lord can say his character i more attractive, and at my table there is no debate there. Higher Strength lifts more, higher Int is smarter, and higher Cha is better looking if two players disagree.
Oddly, I DON'T have all my players running supermodels. One of the highest Cha characters to ever be in one of my games was a malformed dwarf who took a penalty to speed just to show how twisted his body was.
Also, in my games players often cast various actors as the movie version of their character. So I know Krarn Bear-Hug looks like Dwayne Johnson in half-orc make up, and Petterlee Pattersine is a halfling Evangiline Lilly. That determiens looks... Charisma determines reactions if you gt to talk to them or watch them interact for a long time.
The idea of rolling for your character's appearance just blows my mind.
Rolling is what we call the "Spin Art" method of character creation.
On another angle: The Joker. And Pinhead. And Freddy Krueger.
Now I'm recalling a game where low charisma / comeliness caused fear effects. Don't remember if it was DnD, but it stopped around the time when point buy became popular for obvious reasons.
I remember in 1st ed when Comeliness debuted in the Unearthed Arcana. Everyone felt it was a very good idea, but in play it was a little bit awkward.
I've seen how other games have done it and IMHO the best way to do it is as a series of merits and flaws or however you want to term them depending on the game at hand.
For Pathfinder, I'd do Comeliness as a series of Traits you could take at character creation, and later possibly get granted via Wishes or other powerful magics. Stuff like this:
Comely: +2 bonus to Diplomacy when people can see you
Sexy: +4 bonus to Diplomacy when dealing with the opposite sex
Golden voice: +2 bonus to Diplomacy when speaking, and +4 bonus to vocal Performance checks
You can have a whole ragbag of traits like this and either let them be things the players pick out at character creation or you can roll randomly and see what the fates blessed them with.
there was a beuty stat in a 3.x ogl book too....umm that one with the chain mail bikinni I think it was.....oh well go figureIt was the Book of Erotic Fantasy, the first 3.x supplement that had to be sold in the "Adult" section.
No it wasn;t the one I meant, this one you got at Enworld and wasn't done by whitewolf publishing
but that you mention it, that book had one in it too.
before I forget, Anima beyond fantasy also has an attractive spot and rules to set it and the mutants and mastermind stuff also has rules for it.
if Paizo has it in with CHA than its fine
For Pathfinder, I'd do Comeliness as [...]
You can have a whole ragbag of traits like this [...]
There are traits like this. Unfortunately the only reference I have to them is from erian_7's Character sheet file. Doh. Maybe Paizo'll put out an pdf collection for a few bucks. Could make it an annual thing...
Comeliness vs. Charisma
Would love to Dump both
Perfer Luck Stat (( could double for comeliness, as lucky people were born beatiful ))
Luck Pool = equal to base score
Luck Modifer = max amout of luck applied to a dice roles per round. Also amount of luck recovered over 8 hour of sleep.
(example: The hot girl with 18 luck +4 mod, dumpes the +4 in the Job interview reaction roll to bost her score).
Having known people who were ugly as sin yet highly attractive, or beautiful to look at but ugly to know, I reinstated comeliness as a flavor stat. I use it as part (and only part) of the physical attractiveness calculation, and typically only for initial reactions. Once PC's and NPC's interact, NPC's form their opinion of the PC which is mostly based on that history. As with diplomacy and intimidate, PC's are not directly influenced by NPC attractiveness, though I'll play it up in descriptions.
Players: If they have something specific in their backstory (she treads on others like throw rugs because of her outstanding beauty, he frightens old ladies and small children when he smiles) I assign them one based on that description. Otherwise, as superior specimens of their species, I roll 4d6 take the highest three. Physical attractiveness as a whole incorporates comeliness and all other physical stats. Comeliness is not modifiable, though the appropriate illusion spells might make it so.
NPC's: Straight 3d6 scores. It gives me something to use to describe them to the PC's, and factors in to their interaction with each other.
I roll the comeliness in secret and keep it to myself. My players really seem to enjoy having it in the game. The standing joke on meeting a new NPC is, "What's her (or his) comeliness?"
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I always let the players choose their character's appearances, regardless of the stats. In the absence of player input, I usually assume their characters are handsome/beautiful/rugged/striking in some way - they are the heroes, after all! Unless they go out of their way to make it matter in game terms, it usually never comes up.
I incorporate traits like Attractive as a modifier to Charisma. A situational bonus to charisma based checks in regards to some class of individuals (typically NPCs that would be attracted to you) provides a degree of flexibility without adding the bulk of a new stat or expressly tying appearance = charisma.
People without the attractive trait can describe themselves as homely, or average looking or even pretty, sexy or hot. They just aren't as pretty, sexy or hot as the PC or NPC that took a level of attractiveness. However they could easily be more charismatic or more diplomatic, intimidating, guileful.
That way I can have high, high charisma undead sorcerers that still look scary and creepy and ugly and have buxom, attractive barmaids without having to assign a ton of 17s to Charisma stats ;)
I've just made a Martial Artist Monk who's all about being the first one to step up to fight the biggest, most badass around, but he's not a leader in the slightest sense of the word.
He's a nice guy, but has little personality.
For example, I've made him good looking, but he doesn't talk much. He has his own goals in mind and although he would help others, he has no intention of leading the group or throwing out his own ideas or opinions. He just likes to get in and beat on things in the most efficient way possible (more than likely to be seen as brutal by the other party members), then out of battle, he just prefers to tag along at the back, observing and saying very little. He's more of a thinker than a socialiser.
His Charisma score is a 7.
Maybe some of you disagree with the way I plan on playing him, but maybe some of you agree? I guess it's all just down to personal preference at the end of the day.
You can have good qualities and still be uncharismatic. :)
As in Ars Magica I think Charisma should be renamed Presence. It's a much better descriptive for what it does. Also Wisdom should probably be Intuition or something like that.
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I think reading the description of Charisma (minus the reference to appearance) should pretty much cover it. Let the player choose how their character looks. Every aspect of the game does not need to be ruled by a stat. Seriously, appearance is not going to matter a wick when it comes to that final fight against the BBEG at the end of the adventure path.
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Currently, the PF games I'm in use pt. buy. So did all of the 3.0 & 3.5 campaigns I was part of. None of the groups used a separate comeliness stat. Seems like a lot of people here-- we pretty much let each player decide what his/her character looks like... the one provision is no-one so far has tried to play a character whose appearance was completely out of line with his/her charisma.
On the other hand-- I keep hearing about players that use Charisma as a 'dump stat'. Apparently, in the games I'm in, there's enough non-combat situations, social interaction, and general sense of not liking to create characters who are incorrigible d***heads, that none of the people I game with (including me) use Charisma as a 'dump stat'. I haven't seen a PC with a charisma lower than 10 in about 12 years at least. And I gotta tell ya-- the person who brings in a Cha 7 character in these groups, will pay for it, pretty severely-- in terms of what it's going to do for your social interactions...