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MY PLAYERS STAY OUT OR IT GETS THE HOSE AGAIN
So, a situation is coming up in our campaign, and I'm looking at multiple angles to handle the myriad ways this could play out. This particular avenue touches on some sensitive subject matter, particularly for those involved in the lifestyle that's going to inevitably come up.
As hypocritical as this is coming from me of all people, I'd like to keep any discussion from devolving into sexual puns and wordplay as much as possible.
So anyway.
The party has been working with this LE cleric of Zon-Kuthon. They've gotten attached to her, and currently seek to pull her towards LN. A number of them would like to pull her all the way into LG if possible. If that happens, Zon-Kuthon is no longer a viable patron diety for her.
Said character became devoted to Zon-Kuthon because his church was the only one she knew of that accepted her sadistic and masochistic urges. If anything they only encouraged them. She can't help having those urges, it's just how she's wired.
Is there ANY neutral or even good deity in Golarion as written who would accept this girl and give her some sort of healthy, sane outlet for those tendencies?
It's easy to look at the material at a glance and conclude "BDSM" = evil, but the Zon-Kuthon deity entry does take the time to note that it's "evil sadists, depraved masochists" that are drawn to his worship. So apparently anyone that went the Safe-Sane-Consentual route gets a pass on the usual bondage = evil meme you see in fantasy settings.
But even with that window open, I'm having a hard time seeing any deity fitting the bill for this character. Shelyn is thematically probably the best choice, but she is absolutely not clicking with the whole "accepting this girl for who she is" and seems more apt to try and cure her of her urges rather than channel them towards healthier, less destructive outlets. Which kind of goes back to the theme that this girl has been driven to Zon-Kuthon on account of not finding acceptance anywhere else, which has been sold plainly to the players. Or am I reading Shelyn wrong here? The character in question, above all else, wants to be accepted, and that's sort of Shelyn's hat, along with Sarenrae.
Calistria stood out as a darkhorse possibility for a while, but that's a wash not just because of alignment but because she offers none of the stability this character is seeking.
Are there any other gods who might give this girl a home? She'll likely need a patron if she rejects ZK and her former brethren outright, the PC's support of her notwithstanding. Golarion doesn't really have an Ilmatar-type minor god at work anywhere, does it?
I think the cult of Asmodeus might work as long as she uses her sexuality in the right way...ie. as a tool for aquiring power! She could remain Lawful Neutral.
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Irori Perhaps they might suggest Irori, his belief in self-discipline would allow her to channel her tendencies in a different direction. Essentially she would be submissive to Irori, in an attempt to attain self-perfection.
I had completely forgotten about Irori, and the PCs even have the absolute perfect segue to introduce him to her. Thanks!
Refreshing on Dranngvit as well. Because you never know...
I think the cult of Asmodeus might work as long as she uses her sexuality in the right way...ie. as a tool for aquiring power!
I've said it before and I'll say it again: Stupid sexy Cheliax.
Isn't Irori a little too healthy and pure for her appetites?
Asmodeus blesses those who are sane and calculating as they work without scruple to achieve their desires. Consent is important in a lawful society. The consent of an underling - helps to protect your dominion over them - or your servitude - depending on your preferred role..
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I would have gone with Calistria right off (goddess of lust, favored weapon whip, yes, please!), but for stability, I could see a disciple of Irori being focused on self-discipline through limited mortification and focusing the mind / strengthening the spirit through exercising / denying the flesh.
(More visionquests and sweat lodges, with some Asian-flavored acupuncture or 'cupping' with hot glass containers, etc., less beating oneself with a cat-o-nine-tails!)
Gorum seems like another one who would be focused on 'beating the weakness out of the body, making it like a thing of iron' but, like Calistria, he's not big on the stability or lawfulness.
Iomedae, with a heavy focus on sacrifice, or Torag, with a focus on 'reforging the flesh' or 'tempering oneself,' could work, but Iomedae, in particular, creeps me out, since it treads a little too close to real-world flagellents, which also creep me out. I think I'd like to keep my fantasy mortifiers far away from real-world ones...
A follower of Sarenrae may believe that divine messages come down from the sun, and expose themselves to heatstroke and heat exhaustion, in an attempt to receive 'inspiration.'
A follower of Erastil could follow sweat lodge / vision quest / rites of adulthood themes, with youths sent into the wild to survive a trial in the wilderness to transition to adulthood, but after that, I don't see trials being that big of a part of the faith.
Shelyn and Desna seem the least likely to go past tattooing, on the mortification / scarification front...
Isn't Irori a little too healthy and pure for her appetites?
Asmodeus blesses those who are sane and calculating as they work without scruple to achieve their desires. Consent is important in a lawful society. The written consent of an underling - helps to protect your dominion over them - or your servitude - depending on your preferred role..
If you use the Buddhism analogue, Irori could have a tantric sect, much like parts of Tibetan Buddhism: i.e., consorting with Dakinis (blood-drinking flying nymphs) and sexual imagery.
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Irori Perhaps they might suggest Irori, his belief in self-discipline would allow her to channel her tendencies in a different direction. Essentially she would be submissive to Irori, in an attempt to attain self-perfection.
I had completely forgotten about Irori, and the PCs even have the absolute perfect segue to introduce him to her. Thanks!
*snip*
De nada.
You could just have the character go the whole ex-cleric route and become an oracle. That way you have the Mystery rather than a specific deity to deal with and you could even make a custom Curse to fit the character's issues.
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As presented in Rivers Run Red, Erastil (lawful good) certainly seems a poster-child for "1950s household" D/s lifestylers -- or 1850's -- or 1650's , for that matter.
From there, it's a hop, skip, and a jump to the apocryphal Rule of Thumb. Far afield from SSC sadomasochism, but the obvious D/s overtones to Erastil, taken to their non-consensual (and perhpas consensual) physical extremes, seem to be topical -- and therefore worth mentioning in the context of the original post.
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Unfortunately I'm a Kingmaker player, so I'm missing out on the Erastil and Gorum articles. I'm keeping all of these angles in mind though.
The oracle route certainly has some appeal, especially if she picks up her curse through her rejection of Zon-Kuthon. As for what mystery, curse, and collection of deities she would get...have to dwell on that. A custom Pain Mystery could have potential, but that leaves you hunting related deities other than Zon-Kuthon. Going back to the natural fit...yeah, Calistria would fit in there as well.
All of those other deity + themed trials and mortification ritual suggestions are being kept under consideration too. Since the people leading the charge on this conversion are a cleric of Sarenrae, a paladin of Iomedae, and two Shoanti who have already passed their somewhat harsh rites of adulthood, they just might come into play in some form.
The Irori route is seeming particularly rich with possibility, what with all the different approaches that can be taken with it(ascetic, tantric, or otherwise). Which way she goes depends mostly on if and how they sell it to her though.
Thanks guys. I'm primarily just trying to be prepared when push comes to shove, and it just might start to happen next session. I just have no idea exactly how they're going to go about it.
Have you considered having her become a heretic, having her worship both Zon-Kuthon and Shelyn together in their aspect as twins, calling them Exquisite Torture or somesuch? Let her draw an icon of Shelyn with all Her usual beautiful iconography except put a leash in Her divine hand and depict Her as leading Zon-Kuthon around while He wears a ball gag or a gimp mask and She paddles Him with the flat of that big evil sword She took off him. I mean, if you look at the two in a BDSM context, Zon-Kuthon is obviously doing that whole bad-boy-who-wants-to-be-punished shtick and Shelyn is being the reluctant Dom. After all, She really wants to reform Her brother, but the trouble with punishing Him is that He kind of likes it.
Let this still grant the character her spells. According to her, she's right and Exquisite Torture is overall LN, with Zon-Kuthon as the LE aspect and Shelyn as the LG aspect. The cultists of Zon-Kuthon would say that their twisted lord is still granting spells to the now LN shading towards LG priestess because it would torment His sister Shelyn/show Her the true power of pain/etc. The priests of Shelyn, OTOH, on ascertaining that the BDSM heretic is actually non evil and even slightly good, would say that this is a mercy of Shelyn, who of course loves all things and everyone, even and especially Zon-Kuthon, and has encouraged His former priestess to exchange her barbed whips for velvet floggers and swap out the knives for feathers which feel about the same if someone's blindfolded. Not that Shelyn is into that sort of kink, mind you, but if it's beautifully done, and everyone is good and happy and it's all consensual and everyone is clear on the idea of safewords, well, um....
What Shelyn and Zon-Kuthon actually think should probably be kept offstage in the hands of the GM, but if people who worship dead gods still get spells, then there should be nothing wrong with spells being granted to a woman who thinks that Shelyn should be riding Her masochistic brother around as a ball-gagged pony.
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All of those other deity + themed trials and mortification ritual suggestions are being kept under consideration too. Since the people leading the charge on this conversion are a cleric of Sarenrae, a paladin of Iomedae, and two Shoanti who have already passed their somewhat harsh rites of adulthood, they just might come into play in some form.
You mean the thing with the knife where you must not scream?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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What Shelyn and Zon-Kuthon actually think should probably be kept offstage in the hands of the GM, but if people who worship dead gods still get spells, then there should be nothing wrong with spells being granted to a woman who thinks that Shelyn should be riding Her masochistic brother around as a ball-gagged...
IIRC, this is not the case in Pathfinder - Aroden Priests for example do not get any spells anymore. That's not to say your idea is entirely without merit. Higher powers (Archdevils, Demon Lords, ...) do grant spells, and maybe one cares enough to impersonate (or even "be"?) this union?
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You mean the thing with the knife where you must not scream?
No, it's the one where......heeeeey. >:|
Have you considered having her become a heretic, having her worship both Zon-Kuthon and Shelyn together in their aspect as twins, calling them Exquisite Torture or somesuch? Let her draw an icon of Shelyn with all Her usual beautiful iconography except put a leash in Her divine hand and depict Her as leading Zon-Kuthon around while He wears a ball gag or a gimp mask and She paddles Him with the flat of that big evil sword She took off him. I mean, if you look at the two in a BDSM context, Zon-Kuthon is obviously doing that whole bad-boy-who-wants-to-be-punished shtick and Shelyn is being the reluctant Dom. After all, She really wants to reform Her brother, but the trouble with punishing Him is that He kind of likes it.
...
IIRC, this is not the case in Pathfinder - Aroden Priests for example do not get any spells anymore. That's not to say your idea is entirely without merit. Higher powers (Archdevils, Demon Lords, ...) do grant spells, and maybe one cares enough to impersonate (or even "be"?) this union?
Or maybe something that exists between Heaven and Hell...some form of fallen angel, an aeon(whatever those finally turn out to be), or possibly some powerful offspring of both celestial and fiendish parents. For extra fun, the descendant of a powerful risen fiend(kyton?) and a fallen angel...
Going back to Kevin's original idea though, there is precedence for "janiform" combos of deities, like Shimye-Magalla(Gozreh + Desna) amongst the Mwangi. Maybe the right combination of Shelyn or ZK + some other god or godlike entity could result in a deifically approved small cult, heretical(in the eyes of mortal churches) or otherwise...
Great. As far as having ideas to choose from, this has gone from famine to feast to buffet to opportunity paralysis. :D I think at this point, no matter how things play out, there will be an option that works out organically.
If anything along the lines of Exquisite Torture gets used, it'll probably have to be a bit subdued and be presented more along its philosophical lines. This character skirts the edge of my comfort levels enough as it is. ;)
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Of the options presented, I am most fond of Irori.
The image in my head is of a group of Vudran ascetic disciples engaging in various 'trials of faith,' such as walking across hot coals, to prove their devotion, and also demonstrate their mastery of self, of 'mind over matter,' or strength of will over the weakness of the flesh. To an outside observer, unaware of the deeper spiritual significance of these acts of devotion, entering a state of no-mind awareness or spiritual rapture through denying or testing the body, the whole thing might have a freakish carnival like atmosphere, with some adherents sweating in lodges, dancing to exhaustion, hanging from hooks, juggling hot coals, handling serpents, etc.
...Any deity as they most likely don't care too much what their priestess does in her bedroom?
As others have said: What about Calistria? Alignment wise it would be a bigger change, but the Savored Sting is all about conquest,and turning the cleric of another faith to her service would be a great source of myrth for her. Sure she is an elven goddess, but I can't imagine anyone interested in SnM not having some contact with her or her followers. She might even show up in person, or send one of her favored servants, to complete the conversion.
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I think Shelyn would match, Kevin's idea is all kinds of awesome and going beyond that you could look at Shelyn as an advocate of beauty who recognises that, to some degree, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Reading through Gods And Magic, I think Shelyn's keenest desire would be that this woman falls in love and is able to express herself creatively: neither is beyond the purview of a BDSM cleric. That she is a redeemable cleric of Zon-Kuthon would be the icing on the cake.
"Their duty is to promote beauty, art and love..."
"The church as a whole is disorganized..."
"Worship services may be quiet and slow paced or loud
and upbeat, but they are always heartfelt..."
"Her prayer book is Melodies of Inner Beauty..."
Obviously you could argue that I'm being selective but that's how different sects/cults of gods work.
I've got a mental image of your BDSM cleric presiding over a marriage in which the happy couple kiss between a rose from Shelyn's temple gardens (she is The Eternal Rose) the blood from their lips mingling in a beautiful symbol of romantic union.
And, of course, you can be a stylish, attractive BDSM fan or you can be an unattractive, ill-dressed BDSM fan.
BLathering on now... basically, Shelyn works and KAM is a genius.
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MY PLAYERS STAY OUT OR IT GETS THE HOSE AGAIN
So, a situation is coming up in our campaign, and I'm looking at multiple angles to handle the myriad ways this could play out. This particular avenue touches on some sensitive subject matter, particularly for those involved in the lifestyle that's going to inevitably come up.
As hypocritical as this is coming from me of all people, I'd like to keep any discussion from devolving into sexual puns and wordplay as much as possible.
So anyway.
The party has been working with this LE cleric of Zon-Kuthon. They've gotten attached to her, and currently seek to pull her towards LN. A number of them would like to pull her all the way into LG if possible. If that happens, Zon-Kuthon is no longer a viable patron diety for her.
Said character became devoted to Zon-Kuthon because his church was the only one she knew of that accepted her sadistic and masochistic urges. If anything they only encouraged them. She can't help having those urges, it's just how she's wired.
Is there ANY neutral or even good deity in Golarion as written who would accept this girl and give her some sort of healthy, sane outlet for those tendencies?
It's easy to look at the material at a glance and conclude "BDSM" = evil, but the Zon-Kuthon deity entry does take the time to note that it's "evil sadists, depraved masochists" that are drawn to his worship. So apparently anyone that went the Safe-Sane-Consentual route gets a pass on the usual bondage = evil meme you see in fantasy settings.
But even with that window open, I'm having a hard time seeing any deity fitting the bill for this character. Shelyn is thematically probably the best choice, but she is absolutely not clicking with the whole "accepting this girl for who she is" and seems more apt to try and cure her of her urges rather than channel them towards healthier, less destructive outlets. Which kind of goes back to the theme that this girl has been driven to Zon-Kuthon on account of not...
Honestly, I think Sheyln is probably the most appropriate god for your players to steer this NPC towards for several reasons. She has still not given up on her sibling, and gods working through mortals as they do, this is a way for her to redeem some of his evil. I don't think this necessarily means that Shelyn or appropriate proxies have to try and "cure" her of her urges. Despite the alignment system, it's not always actions that define good and evil. To use the most obvious example, murder is not a good thing, but how many people have your PCs killed? More often then not, it is the intent behind an action that determines it's moral implication. Teaching this NPC that she is capable of love and of being loved seems a worthy goal. If she thereafter chooses to express that love in a "BDSM" sort of manner, all it really comes down to is a question of whether or not such behavior is inherently destructive.
While I'm not a participant in such activities in my own life, how people express their feelings for one another is their own business. Sensuality has a lot of different forms. So long as both parties really enjoy their role and care for each others' well being, I don't see how you can call it evil. I would go so far as to say that many human relationships have a "sub" and a "dom", though that dynamic doesn't always have a physical manifestation.
My 2 cents.
The only way I can see that she wouldn't be available as a potential Shelyn convert would be if there is no such thing as beauty in pain. Since it is an objective fact that some people do find beauty in pain, Shelyn is only out of the picture if you stipulate that Shelyn's completely not interested in that sort of beauty (or, in a related-but-distinct position, that beauty-pain isn't really beauty at all). Which you seem to have ruled out, I think.
The trick you have to work then is determining how to establish appropriate guidelines for being a good sadist. Seatbelts always!
(I honestly think Irori is a better choice, though, especially since I sometimes houserule the spiked chain as a monk weapon in Pathfinder, as it is otherwise pretty pointless.)
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Of the options presented, I am most fond of Irori.
The image in my head is of a group of Vudran ascetic disciples engaging in various 'trials of faith,' such as walking across hot coals, to prove their devotion, and also demonstrate their mastery of self, of 'mind over matter,' or strength of will over the weakness of the flesh. To an outside observer, unaware of the deeper spiritual significance of these acts of devotion, entering a state of no-mind awareness or spiritual rapture through denying or testing the body, the whole thing might have a freakish carnival like atmosphere, with some adherents sweating in lodges, dancing to exhaustion, hanging from hooks, juggling hot coals, handling serpents, etc.
This combined with the actual Irori worshippers the party has on hand(based on ValkyriePaine's Khivatri concept, which is just another tie in for this character now that I think about it...) via the fighter's followers and their current location in Kaer Maga...hmm....
This is really sparking.
...Any deity as they most likely don't care too much what their priestess does in her bedroom?
Man, this character is way beyond just bedroom activity... She was getting her jollies through performing aggressive dentistry on orcs right before the PCs reunited with her.
As others have said: What about Calistria? Alignment wise it would be a bigger change, but the Savored Sting is all about conquest,and turning the cleric of another faith to her service would be a great source of myrth for her. Sure she is an elven goddess, but I can't imagine anyone interested in SnM not having some contact with her or her followers. She might even show up in person, or send one of her favored servants, to complete the conversion.
It's certainly being kept on tap as a possibility for those interested in staking a claim on this particular prize. It's just that Cal would only offer one of the two things she really believes she needs at the moment.
I think Shelyn would match, Kevin's idea is all kinds of awesome and going beyond that you could look at Shelyn as an advocate of beauty who recognises that, to some degree, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Reading through Gods And Magic, I think Shelyn's keenest desire would be that this woman falls in love and is able to express herself creatively: neither is beyond the purview of a BDSM cleric. That she is a redeemable cleric of Zon-Kuthon would be the icing on the cake.
(stuff)
Yeah, looking through the Shelyn entry again she does seem more likely to be open and accepting. I kind of got it in my head that she had rejected a lot of ZK's influences, or rather influences on ZK. Even wondered if that might have been the source of their argument that led to Dou-Bral leaving reality before coming back as ZK.
But yeah, turning it towards positive ends and beautiful aesthetics, while still being plenty unsettling to more "conventional" folks, could still be a way to go.
However, one big thing that needs to be pointed out about the character, and this is my fault for not making it clear, is that she's not nearly just about the BDSM-ish aspects of her faith. She really sees pain as proof of existance and life, as well as a means of growing stronger and establishing control and stability in her life.
That doesn't neccessarily shut out Shelyn though...perhaps that could be a new angle in itself? Maybe she could see herself, and whatever strange cult she might establish, or join, as a work in progress, in her patron's name?
Honestly, I think Sheyln is probably the most appropriate god for your players to steer this NPC towards for several reasons. She has still not given up on her sibling, and gods working through mortals as they do, this is a way for her to redeem some of his evil. I don't think this necessarily means that Shelyn or appropriate proxies have to try and "cure" her of her urges. Despite the alignment system, it's not always actions that define good and evil. To use the most obvious example, murder is not a good thing, but how many people have your PCs killed? More often then not, it is the intent behind an action that determines it's moral implication. Teaching this NPC that she is capable of love and of being loved seems a worthy goal. If she thereafter chooses to express that love in a "BDSM" sort of manner, all it really comes down to is a question of whether or not such behavior is inherently destructive.
While I'm not a participant in such activities in my own life, how people express their feelings for one another is their own business. Sensuality has a lot of different forms. So long as both parties really enjoy their role and care for each others' well being, I don't see how you can call it evil. I would go so far as to say that many human relationships have a "sub" and a "dom", though that dynamic doesn't always have a physical manifestation.
My 2 cents.
Oh no, I didn't mean to imply that BDSM was evil. If it came across that way, I apologize. I was more trying to point at the old meme that seems to pop up in fantasy settings, where the bondage-y types are always evil. I remember a number of folks complaining about the Book of Vile Darkness taking that notion and running with it. "Live and let live" type here, so I'm empathetic to their frustration at almost always being made out to be the bad guys.
My concern with Shelyn was whether or not she would be compatible with someone whose urges, which have had plenty of time to grow twisted and fester under ZK's guidance, are a big part of this girl's psyche. For her, she wouldn't be able to remove it from her religion any more than she can remove the religious significance from her pain fixation. It bleeds together for her.
But the notion of Shelyn seeking to redeem not only this NPC, but some of the very trappings her brother has wrapped around himself...
Damn guys. Now I really don't know which way to go between Irori and Shelyn.
Ah, leaving it mostly in the hands of the players...
The only way I can see that she wouldn't be available as a potential Shelyn convert would be if there is no such thing as beauty in pain. Since it is an objective fact that some people do find beauty in pain, Shelyn is only out of the picture if you stipulate that Shelyn's completely not interested in that sort of beauty (or, in a related-but-distinct position, that beauty-pain isn't really beauty at all). Which you seem to have ruled out, I think.
The trick you have to work then is determining how to establish appropriate guidelines for being a good sadist. Seatbelts always!
(I honestly think Irori is a better choice, though, especially since I sometimes houserule the spiked chain as a monk weapon in Pathfinder, as it is otherwise pretty pointless.)
Yeah, I'm on board with the "Shelyn would be okay with it" conclusion, with the caveat that she would demand that it be SSC flavored(like you said, seatbelts).
edit-And actually, I think you just nearly convinced me to lean back on that janiform idea. Could see beauty in pain as an ideal, as well as growing to see pain as breeding empathy and compassion, which are things this character believes she has right now, but it's all twisted around at the moment thanks to her ZK indoctrination and other issues. That's Shelyn's bag. Making an ideal of it to be strived towards and possibly perfected, might bring Irori into it.
So now, three big options seem to stand out: Shelyn, Irori, or some combination of the two, either worshipped together(though only likely to be a functioning cleric of one) or as a singular deific ideal.(which might open up that Oracle option again...)
Guys, seriously, thanks. You folks rock for the brainstorming. This has a lot more interesting potential to work with than the straightforward approach I was on when it started.
It's probably fairly obvious to those who have read the material, but the NPC in question is (Adventure Path spoilers:)
Yeah I know. I knew the players would have a strong reaction to the character, but I really didn't expect them to care this much and to become so focused and unified on the matter. It's lead to some amazing roleplaying from this group, and honestly they've more than earned this spot of brightness considering the overload of tragedy and loss they've had to deal with, and still have coming their way.
That's part of the reason I want to make this flow seamlessly the next few sessions. And if it works out, well that just means more potential social complications to hash out once the major conflict of the campaign is over. ;)
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I'll argue against Irori, not because He's not an appropriate god for some BDSM contexts, but doesn't sound appropriate for this character. Irori would be fine with mortification of the flesh as a method to transcend the mortal bonds and achieve Zen enlightenment. This priestess sounds like she enjoys her work in orc dentistry way too much to be able to grok someone so placid and at peace as the Master of Masters.
OTOH, with the Zon-Kuthon/Shelyn dichotomy you have Pain/Pleasure, Agony/Ecstasy, and so on. The priestess could explain (and believe) that when you experience so much pain that the endorphin rush kicks in, that's the mask of Zon-Kuthon slipping aside and showing His beautiful sister Shelyn. Conversely, when you see a painting or hear a melody of such exquisite beauty that it brings tears to your eyes, that's Shelyn's mask slipping and showing Zon-Kuthon behind her. And of course the whole "hurts so good" business with sex would be just more proof of linkage of the twins. Her realization that the two are linked was an epiphany and she might very well be on a holy mission to spread her heresy.
As an extra twisted bit, you could have her going out of her way to be nice and make people happy because she thinks Shelyn is displeased that the priestess has honored Zon-Kuthon more in the past than she's honored Her, and so now the priestess is all "Yes, Mistress" to her goddess while going about doing good deeds while wearing kinky penitential wear like a good sub.
I think Shelyn wherever She is on Her cloud is probably bemused by the whole situation, thinking on one hand "Well, it makes her happy..." and on the other "Maybe this will help poor Zon-Kuthon" or maybe is thinking more direct things but by the time Her heavenly messages get down to the priestess, they're a little garbled by the woman's admittedly twisted world view.
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If she follow Irori on the other hand, she'll go in the direction of a humorous zen master. Essentially her talent for receiving pain transforms her.
Eventually she'll need to reach the point where she no longer needs the whips, chains, gags and hooks to feel spiritual transcendence. She is beyond the physical.
there is also that goddess of forbidden love.....
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This combined with the actual Irori worshippers the party has on hand(based on ValkyriePaine's Khivatri concept,
Ooh, that's a neat character. Thanks for linking to that!
Damn guys. Now I really don't know which way to go between Irori and Shelyn.
Ah, leaving it mostly in the hands of the players...
Probably the best idea, and one of the reasons I spammed you with as many ideas as I could think of, so that there'd be some options to choose between.
A character that the player has had a hand in designing (not just the stats, but the culture behind it) seems more likely to thrive than another collection of numbers, in my experience. If the character starts her own little side-sect / heresy based on the interpretation that the line between pleasure and pain is the place where the reconciliation of Shelyn and Zon-Kuthon will finally happen, that's cool.
She might even remain devoted at least somewhat to the ideal of the Zon-Kuthon that was, back before he got all dark, and have the ridiculously over-the-top goal of converting her god back to the way he used to be...
I played a cleric of Calistria (What! How did you guess?!?) in CotCT. She's chaotic, though. Personally, I went for more of a Chaotic Saucy. Had a Holy Tramp Stamp of Calistria and everything.
There's an interesting thing in the write-up of Cali (My DM gave me a print out which I can't find ATM), her clerics often act as councilors and therapists.
Mind you, you're looking at an almost full diametric alignment shift if you want to avoind Chaotic Evil, but alignment is the fifth most annoying thing about the d20 System [...rant deleted...]. But if you are planning on cohortizing her you might want to pick something close to the rest of the party.
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I think Shelyn wherever She is on Her cloud is probably bemused by the whole situation, thinking on one hand "Well, it makes her happy..." and on the other "Maybe this will help poor Zon-Kuthon" or maybe is thinking more direct things but by the time Her heavenly messages get down to the priestess, they're a little garbled by the woman's admittedly twisted world view.
Heh, it's a sure thing now that no matter which way she goes, she's definitely going to be warping what's presented to her, be it from a priest or god. ;)
** spoiler omitted **
Dude, don't even joke about that!
AP SPOILER
...funny though. The party was big on trying to help her as well when it turned out she was completely out of her gourd and being used by someone else.
Cripes, if those two ever met.... O_O
Still, if she falls in with those monks the PC's have hanging around...
there is also that goddess of forbidden love.....
Man, introducing Naderi to someone this unstable is just begging for trouble. :O
This combined with the actual Irori worshippers the party has on hand(based on ValkyriePaine's Khivatri concept,Ooh, that's a neat character. Thanks for linking to that!
I just thought it was such a heartbreaking concept I had to throw it in when AP SPOILERS AND TANGENT
When the party went through the process of fooling the monks that their ownership had been passed to them legally via illusions after having killed their current masters out of sight, it had the air of a tense bomb-defusing scene.
The Cayden Cailean worshipping rogue in partuclar has been plenty conflicted about the whole affair. They've been sheltering the monks for the most part, while slowly and gently trying to acclimate them to the idea that it's okay for them to do what they want.
That protectiveness only grew when two of the players wound up playing a couple of the monks during a fill-in game, where all the players rolled to see which of the fighter's level 1 followers they would play for a one-night Kaer Maga adventure.
Yeah, those guys are a goldmine for sticky situations and drama!
She might even remain devoted at least somewhat to the ideal of the Zon-Kuthon that was, back before he got all dark, and have the ridiculously over-the-top goal of converting her god back to the way he used to be...
Well, the players did want to eventually take these characters into epic beyond the scope of the campaign...and considering how ZK-centric much of it has been...
I'm not even going to start worrying about that until they hit 20. This plate is full as is! ;)
There's an interesting thing in the write-up of Cali (My DM gave me a print out which I can't find ATM), her clerics often act as councilors and therapists.
Mind you, you're looking at an almost full diametric alignment shift if you want to avoind Chaotic Evil, but alignment is the fifth most annoying thing about the d20 System [...rant deleted...]. But if you are planning on cohortizing her you might want to pick something close to the rest of the party.
I vaguely remember some bits about councilors and therapists of Calistria now, though I have to wonder if even the CG ones would be able to give this girl the help she needs. Not doubting the well meaning intentions of good Calistrians, but I'm not sure if their aid would be more helpful or harmful.
There's no big Calistrian influence in the party or amongst the followers, but they are currently based in Kaer Maga at the moment. And the NPC in question hails from Riddleport originally, and is a Forlorn elf on top of that. So she has to be familiar with some of it at least.
Things have really gelled now, guys. Again, thanks for all the suggestions.
bumping this topic with a request for information:
My husband is running a solo campaign for me where I'm playing a bard priestess of Calistria in Pitax pre-Irovetti and Kingmaker. She's... well, got the holy prostitute thing down, at least, and as a good character traveling with a knight of Iomedae she's having more than a few problems lately. I'd basically just like to know what AP the full write up on Calistria appears in so I can understand the Goddess a little better before I start any long term plans for say... tackling the Qadiri drug cartel...
bumping this topic with a request for information:
My husband is running a solo campaign for me where I'm playing a bard priestess of Calistria in Pitax pre-Irovetti and Kingmaker. She's... well, got the holy prostitute thing down, at least, and as a good character traveling with a knight of Iomedae she's having more than a few problems lately. I'd basically just like to know what AP the full write up on Calistria appears in so I can understand the Goddess a little better before I start any long term plans for say... tackling the Qadiri drug cartel...
You'll want to look at Second Darkness #5: A Memory of Darkness (Pathfinder Adventure Path #17). It has the extended write up of Calistra. Hope that helps.
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bumping this topic with a request for information:
My husband is running a solo campaign for me where I'm playing a bard priestess of Calistria in Pitax pre-Irovetti and Kingmaker. She's... well, got the holy prostitute thing down, at least, and as a good character traveling with a knight of Iomedae she's having more than a few problems lately. I'd basically just like to know what AP the full write up on Calistria appears in so I can understand the Goddess a little better before I start any long term plans for say... tackling the Qadiri drug cartel...
Pathfinder 17 "A Memory of Darkness" is the AP installment that has the Calistria article. The book is the fifth part of Second Darkness. The article is written by SKR. There is of course a small amount of information regarding her in Gods and Magic from the Chronicles line.
edit: So that is what Ninja Smoke smells like! :)
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I'm surprised no one mentioned the ultimate crux of pain and love, childbirth.
As someone without kids, and living vicariously through everyone else's, I could picture her being kind of a midwife, enjoying the pain of childbirth while welcoming a new child in the world.
Plus she'd get to slap the baby!
I'm surprised no one mentioned the ultimate crux of pain and love, childbirth.
As someone without kids, and living vicariously through everyone else's, I could picture her being kind of a midwife, enjoying the pain of childbirth while welcoming a new child in the world.
Plus she'd get to slap the baby!
Yeah... but then it brings either Pharasma or Lamashtu into the mix, and Lamashtu has a lot more going on in the pain of childbirth than Pharasma. After all, Pharasma doesn't see a child clawing its way out of the womb as a "good" thing.
Sarenrae - Goddess of Forgivness and Redemption :) And what you do in your bedroom is your buisness, as long as you dont hurt anyone...
Then again... you could go Devotee of the Green and do your own thing...
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Just a thought... have you considered having the character convert to the worship of ZK as Dou-Bral? Even if he was completely altered by his departure from reality, he would still retain some essence of his former self, being a god and all. Could make for an interesting set of circumstances, especially if you like the Shelyn approach.
Sarenrae - Goddess of Forgivness and Redemption :) And what you do in your bedroom is your buisness, as long as you dont hurt anyone...
You would think so, but when I suggested to my GM that my cleric of Sarenrae attempt to arrange a three way domestic partnership with Akiros Ismort and Baron Hannis Drelev, I got shot down rather quickly. And she genuinely loves both men. She's so into redemption it's downright silly.
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bumping this topic with a request for information:
My husband is running a solo campaign for me where I'm playing a bard priestess of Calistria in Pitax pre-Irovetti and Kingmaker. She's... well, got the holy prostitute thing down, at least, and as a good character traveling with a knight of Iomedae she's having more than a few problems lately. I'd basically just like to know what AP the full write up on Calistria appears in so I can understand the Goddess a little better before I start any long term plans for say... tackling the Qadiri drug cartel...
You know, the idea of a CG karmic tricksterish Calistrian has some appeal, going for the trickery and revenge aspects. Focusing on poetic justice, most often geared towards teaching the recipient a lesson more than anything else.
I'm surprised no one mentioned the ultimate crux of pain and love, childbirth.
As someone without kids, and living vicariously through everyone else's, I could picture her being kind of a midwife, enjoying the pain of childbirth while welcoming a new child in the world.
Plus she'd get to slap the baby!
This just gave me an idea that's almost certainly going to come into play now. It might touch on the character in question, giving her an extra nudge in the right direction, but it probably won't be a big focus for her. Still, thanks!
Sarenrae - Goddess of Forgivness and Redemption :) And what you do in your bedroom is your buisness, as long as you dont hurt anyone...
Most often I'd agree, but this character takes the "pain as philosophy" thing far beyond the bedroom... If it was restricted there, it'd be a much simpler matter, I'd wager.
Just a thought... have you considered having the character convert to the worship of ZK as Dou-Bral? Even if he was completely altered by his departure from reality, he would still retain some essence of his former self, being a god and all. Could make for an interesting set of circumstances, especially if you like the Shelyn approach.
Yep, definitely been planning on keeping this as a possible avenue after the earlier suggestions. Most likely going to be painfully complicated for her, considering all the entanglements between Sheylyn, ZK, and what ZK used to be, all the overlap and the bits that absolutely do not.
Still, depends on what the players do! ;)
You would think so, but when I suggested to my GM that my cleric of Sarenrae attempt to arrange a three way domestic partnership with Akiros Ismort and Baron Hannis Drelev, I got shot down rather quickly. And she genuinely loves both men. She's so into redemption it's downright silly.
DEM POLYANDROUS QADIRAN GIRLS
I feel a day late and a dollar short, but here's my two cents...
the people leading the charge on this conversion are a cleric of Sarenrae, a paladin of Iomedae...
Saranrae's big schtick is redemption and light. Talk about a gift: a Priestess of Z-K that repents!? Thank the Goddess! Making the reformed ZK Cultist a priest of Saranrae would be interesting but would require some *significant* and *lengthy* period of transformation. Going from LE to NG is more than a big step...
Iomadae could almost be an easier task: Yes she represents Valor, but isn't part of her portfolio also Rulership? Whether she's a dom or a sub, it's easy to see how rulership fits into BDSM lifestyle: it's all about Masters and Slaves; power and control.
My point is that if you have two very specific Deities represented, the adherents should have some input into where the redeemed preistess fits in. Or, are they content to see the priestess released from ZK?
GNOME
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I feel a day late and a dollar short, but here's my two cents...
the people leading the charge on this conversion are a cleric of Sarenrae, a paladin of Iomedae...Saranrae's big schtick is redemption and light. Talk about a gift: a Priestess of Z-K that repents!? Thank the Goddess! Making the reformed ZK Cultist a priest of Saranrae would be interesting but would require some *significant* and *lengthy* period of transformation. Going from LE to NG is more than a big step...
Iomadae could almost be an easier task: Yes she represents Valor, but isn't part of her portfolio also Rulership? Whether she's a dom or a sub, it's easy to see how rulership fits into BDSM lifestyle: it's all about Masters and Slaves; power and control.
My point is that if you have two very specific Deities represented, the adherents should have some input into where the redeemed preistess fits in. Or, are they content to see the priestess released from ZK?
GNOME
For the most part, they simply want to see her freed from ZK. Most of the PCs are pretty "live and let live" with regards to religion, though they would much prefer people stick with gods that won't guide them towards evil behavior and damnation. Iomedaean paladin does have some proselytizing in her blood, but she keeps it appropriate. Sarenraen cleric preaches the good word but is generally easy going, only really having hang-ups about himself paying heed to other gods(he was the only PC to skip out on a magical Desna tat because of this(long story)).
(It made me realize that when I play cleric, I have the habit of trying to hook people up with a good/neutral god that's right for them rather than exclusively trying to convert them to my own faith. In a world with so many gods, many of them allied with each other and who get along quite well, I can see it working out, but I wonder if I've been too lax in general...)
Still, the elements you mentioned for Sarenrae are a big part of his push to pull her away from ZK, period.
The Iomedae stuff? Something to think about. The paladin involved is probably absolutely incapable of drawing such a comparison, but the Pantheistic fighter she's following does keep pressuring her to talk to the girl since she's better at theology.
Hm.... See how it all develops. They've certainly cemented their strange friendship with her after last weekend's session, so they've got some leeway to work with. She also trusts them absolutely, which is one hell of a coup.
Sarenraen cleric preaches the good word but is generally easy going, only really having hang-ups about himself paying heed to other gods(he was the only PC to skip out on a magical Desna tat because of this(long story)).
My cleric would be about steering her away from evil, but... every character is different.
Is it really so important that she stop worshiping Zon Kuthon in particular, or stop being evil? I should think the whole evil thing would be more important than the god thing...
Maybe start moving her towards Calistria in general. She can eventually become N and worship Calistria which would cover the whole kink aspect, I suppose. Without an appropriate guide however, this would be hard to accomplish, methinks.
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Sarenrae - Goddess of Forgivness and Redemption :) And what you do in your bedroom is your buisness, as long as you dont hurt anyone...
Then again... you could go Devotee of the Green and do your own thing...
Sarenrea would defiantly would have the best support structure in place to help this cleric.
Think of it this way, despite the fact that Zon-Kuthon is supposed to be 'evil' and be sort of the anti-Shelyn, he has forbidden his followers from harming her own.
Really? Where does it say that? I was reading his extended write up in the Crimson Throne adventure path and it said that while Shelyn was off limits there was no special protections for her followers from him or his own.
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My cleric would be about steering her away from evil, but... every character is different.
Sarenraen cleric preaches the good word but is generally easy going, only really having hang-ups about himself paying heed to other gods(he was the only PC to skip out on a magical Desna tat because of this(long story)).
I may have worded that wrong: He does want to pull her away from evil and ZK, but the specific god she does wind up with is less important than her simply being guided away from evil.
Is it really so important that she stop worshiping Zon Kuthon in particular, or stop being evil? I should think the whole evil thing would be more important than the god thing...
Maybe start moving her towards Calistria in general. She can eventually become N and worship Calistria which would cover the whole kink aspect, I suppose. Without an appropriate guide however, this would be hard to accomplish, methinks.
Pretty much everyone in the party wants to pull her away from evil above all else, but as far as continuing to worship ZK, a few PCs believe as long as she's not evil, her worship of ZK is no big deal as long as it's guided by LN principles. For the other characters more savvy on matters theologic, they'd rather her connection with ZK was ended if only to save her from eternal damnation.
A couple of things are getting blurry on that last point. If she does start worshipping the Zon-Kuthon that was, Dou-Bral, where will her spells come from, and what will her destination be after death? I was thinking Shelyn would be the one connecting with her at first, with possibly some hint of Dou-Bral coming into play. No solid decisions there yet. Just vague ideas.
Sarenrea would defiantly would have the best support structure in place to help this cleric.
Sarenraen cleric in the party certainly has the most experience in the field. He's had some distractions come his way though, after he converted a goblin and worrying over whether or not he's got some dangerously wrong-headed ideas on what Sarenrae's about...
Really, this touches on a much larger thing that's been bouncing around in my head. Namely, just how much Zon-Kuthon is still related to Shelyn. Think of it this way, despite the fact that Zon-Kuthon is supposed to be 'evil' and be sort of the anti-Shelyn, he has forbidden his followers from harming her own. Further, almost all of his followers are willing, and share in close, if twisted, relationships.
In this way, them switching to Shelyn is most logical. Shelyn is, in many ways, very similar to Zon-Kuthon, and there is a strong connection between the two, with Zon-Kuthon protecting the goddess of love, and Shelyn's own clergy accepting the presence and even assistance of the other when it comes to them. It is by far one of the most interesting divine relationships in any campaign setting I've used, and I think it'd be great fun to explore.
I'm with you on the Shelyn/ZK thing. So many possibilities to play with there. While Tobias is right about the "hands-off" policy not extending to Shelyn's clergy, I do love the idea of both of those churches having a very complicated relationship that extends beyond "stamp them out whereever they are found", although it may cross into that territory at times.
Most likely right now: The way things are playing out now, if they keep trying to pull her away from evil while not trying to move her towards any specific alternate gods, she's going to move to LN ZK worship, most likely earning her god's disapproval when she fails to do his work for the sake of preserving her friendship with the party, because they are luring her away bit by bit. After that, she's going to be floundering for purpose. Whether she backslides, falls into absolute despair, or finds a new reason to go on is all going to be in the PCs' hands.
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As mentioned, briefly earlier, I am fond of the Oracle idea.
I have never been liked the idea of deities picking up stray clerics from other religions. There is an exceptional amount of dedication required from a person to become a cleric and not just a lay follower. That kind of devotion does not lend itself to "swapping out" deities.
At least in my opinion anyway. :)
The Oracle seems like a perfect fit for a "fallen" cleric. A curse could come from the abandoned god as punishment, the mysteries could come as the fallen cleric gains new insights aroused by the change in belief systems.
The Oracle seems like a good choice for other reasons as well. As the sheer volume of posts mentioning and supporting different deities for this wayward soul indicates, there are MANY deities that could support this fallen cleric. And to quote the description from Oracle:
Instead of worshiping a single source, oracles tend to venerate all of the gods that share their beliefs.
The new oracle could be sponsored by a wide range of divine forces working through her (sometimes at odds with one another even).
The Oracle uses the cleric list of spells, just a more limited selection. Perhaps the spells she most used remain familiar enough to her that she retained them... Perhaps the new mysteries that she gains are granted by different deities, or perhaps created by her own self awareness and growth...
BTW Curse... great one is Wasting... what better curse for ZK to use than to cause her very body, the source of her identification, to just waste away! The sick bastard!
Now, as a GM for a home game I would be more than willing to allow all cleric levels be converted to oracle levels, much the way paladin levels convert to black guard. This particular character I think I would even integrate as a party NPC, or at the very least a recurring contact.
In fact the more I think about it the more I think this would be a GREAT character for a set of stories as well!
[EDIT- BTW Mikaze, is this set in that city you once described and created some amazing ideas earlier? I'd LOVE to see some notes you have made for that city. I'm slowly developing my own version of it for publication sometime in the next 2 years (my planned schedule is getting too crowded to do alone!)[/EDIT]
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As mentioned, briefly earlier, I am fond of the Oracle idea.
I have never been liked the idea of deities picking up stray clerics from other religions. There is an exceptional amount of dedication required from a person to become a cleric and not just a lay follower. That kind of devotion does not lend itself to "swapping out" deities.
At least in my opinion anyway. :)
Generally I agree that it should be very rare, but this Shelyn/Dou-Bral/Zon-Kuthon thing has really dug itself into my head.
The Oracle seems like a perfect fit for a "fallen" cleric. A curse could come from the abandoned god as punishment, the mysteries could come as the fallen cleric gains new insights aroused by the change in belief systems.
The Oracle seems like a good choice for other reasons as well. As the sheer volume of posts mentioning and supporting different deities for this wayward soul indicates, there are MANY deities that could support this fallen cleric. And to quote the description from Oracle:
Oracle wrote:
Instead of worshiping a single source, oracles tend to venerate all of the gods that share their beliefs.The new oracle could be sponsored by a wide range of divine forces working through her (sometimes at odds with one another even).
I've been considering the Oracle route, with some sort of Pain Mystery. The problem is, what good or neutral gods would share that mystery that could lend some benign guidance to her? Calistria stands out as one possibility(and she would probably definitely have her hand in that Mystery), but like above, she kind of runs counter to the character's desperate need for stability. Going with some of the suggestions upthread, some other gods could have light dabbling in it, like Irori by way of hardcore self-training.
I'm really looking for some form of Lawful and Good influence to throw into it, no matter how obscure. Thinking about it now, this might actually be an angle to approach the matter of worshipping and recieving spells from both Shelyn and the Dou-Bral Who Was.
BTW Curse... great one is Wasting... what better curse for ZK to use than to cause her very body, the source of her identification, to just waste away! The sick bastard!
This is frighteningly close to what I had planned for ZK's punishment when she falls out of his grace! Going completely numb, losing all sensation of touch and pain. Guaranteed freakout there, and one potentially horrifying scene for the player that finds her afterwards.
[EDIT- BTW Mikaze, is this set in that city you once described and created some amazing ideas earlier? I'd LOVE to see some notes you have made for that city. I'm slowly developing my own version of it for publication sometime in the next 2 years (my planned schedule is getting too crowded to do alone!)[/EDIT]
Nah, this is taking place in one of the APs. We've been using that city in the fill-in games for this campaign, but we've had some hilariously bad luck with those fill-in games actually happening. The player that most enjoyed them now believes that that fill-in campaign is cursed.
About the notes: I've actually been slowly(you're not alone there!) working on it as a setting-neutral project(added some freedom to developing the cultures!). What notes I have are seriously scattered, unorganized, and on paper, but I have promised to share them with everyone that helped in that thread once it starts solidifying!
I'm just not sure when that'll be. Agh. ;)
I've been considering the Oracle route, with some sort of Pain Mystery. The problem is, what good or neutral gods would share that mystery that could lend some benign guidance to her? Calistria stands out as one possibility(and she would probably definitely have her hand in that Mystery), but like above, she kind of runs counter to the character's desperate need for stability. Going with some of the suggestions upthread, some other gods could have light dabbling in it, like Irori by way of hardcore self-training.
The thing about Oracle's Mysteries is that you don't need a single god to be the one granting those powers, since the power is drawn from all the Deities that support their ideals.
I've always seen a mystery as something that always relates to how an Oracle gets their "Visions". Bones for throwing the bones, Flame for staring into fire, Life for watching the flight of birds (or cutting them open to read their entrails), and so on. So Pain would be just that, a moment of revelation during some fit of suffering.
Better yet, Oracles don't need to choose their profession, it can be inflicted.
I think you've gotten a good selection of Pain Mystery. Irori bring revelation through physical hardship on the way to perfect, Calistria in that moment between harm (physical, emotional or mental) between shock and the need for retribution, and Zon-Kuthon in fits of agonized ecstasy when you've gone beyond what you can take.
You might even want to fit in Iomedae because of the suffering you have to go through to do the right thing and meet your convictions, or Sarenrae for the Pain caused by the purifying flame on the way to redemption.
Or, if you want to keep the Shelyn, Zon-Kuthon, Dou-Bral angle, maybe it comes from the nature of the relation between the three. How Shelyn feels over the loss of her brother and what he's gone/going through, the pain Zon-Kuthon brings to all, and Dou-Bral's suffering at what he became/how be became Zon-Kuthon.
As one more suggestion, regardless of what happens the cleric is probably going to get one last whack from Zon-Kuthon, right? Since he is a god of suffering and loss, maybe he reduces the cleric's sensitivity to pain. Not so that she no longer feels anything, but just enough so that she knows she has lost something she's never getting back, that her "playtime" will never be as good as it had been. She may find acceptance and people that care for her, and even redemption, but it costs her something that she defines herself with.
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as a twist on the Oracle idea, if ZK curses her with Wasting (or numbness) then she could forced to go to another mystery other than pain, since she can't feel her exquisite agony anymore. It could provide an opportunity to take her in a new direction than just being a masochist. I often think characters that are defined by something, then take it away and send them a new direction while angsting over their loss makes for a great character.