This thread is exactly what it sounds like. It's a list of spells that I think should be on the Magus list. Clearly, there's been some complaint that the list needs tweaking, so I'm listing the spells that I think should've been added.
Note 1: I didn't pick any spells from other class' lists. While it might prove necessary, this class is clearly meant to be a wizard class, and people have a series of mixed opinions on what can and can't be crossed between classes.
Note 2: Yes, several of these spells are at levels the Magus can't currently cast, and yes I'm suggesting these spells be moved down for the magus (several spells already on the list could be moved down as well).
Note 3: I avoided nukes. I'm suggesting spells that can be interchanged with/enhance swordplay. Personally, I think using mirror image before a series of attacks fits the concept a lot better than using an artillery spell. Alternately, some of these spells are just necessary if the class is meant to be a competent arcanist (and I do feel this class should fill in for the wizard to have a place in most groups). Utility spells are a vital part of those kinds of classes.
Level 1:
Comprehend Languages
Identify
Mage Armor
Level 2:
Protection from Arrows
Resist Energy
See Invisibility
Whispering Wind
Level 3:
Blink (how on earth did this not end up on there)
Heroism
Protection from Energy
Rage
Tongues
Vampiric Touch (Also how did this not end up on there)
Level 4:
Dimensional Anchor
Globe of invuln. lsr.
Remove Curse
Level 5:
Break Enchantment
Prying Eyes
Permanency
Sending
Telepathic Bond
Level 6:
Heroism, Greater
Contingency
Shadow Walk
Level 7:
Mage's Sword
Ethereal Jaunt
Reverse Gravity
Level 8:
Protection from Spells
Moment of Prescience
Iron Body
I think it would be EASIEST to just give them the sorcerer/wizard spell list, a Magus Arcana to boost Save DCs, and some high level (16+) Magus Arcana that give access to some 7th-9th level spells.
That way, it will be both backwards compatible with 3.5 spells from all sorts of sources, and also guaranteed to get support in future releases when new sorcerer/wizard spells are made available.
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Jason had already said somewhere words to the effect that the Magus gets showy spells. So I wouldn't expect to see Necromantic or perhaps enchantment spells in there. I suggest it is probably just easier to say he gets all of certain schools lists and not other schools - perhaps qualified further that summon spells aren't allowed for example.
Aside: Why Mage Armor when he can wear armor?
I would expect to see a bunch of touch spells mirroring the showy magic weapon spells such as flaming, frost, shock flaming burst - or simpler make it a class feature rather than more new spells.
The class at the moment seems mostly about weapon enhancing and buffs, with a sideline in other spells.
And fairly eliminate any reason to roll up a wizard at all.Not with that spell progression and only 6 levels of spells. But you are right in that there needs to be a distinction at first level.
Ya there is, it's called bonus feats and Specialist School power. I'm building a 1st level magus to play along side a Monk in a long postponed game, and what I noticed right off is the very limited number of feats and 'options' at 1st level.
As a Magus I get spell strike (very limited uses), and casting in light armor (no shield)... that's all, well I guess all martial weapons if you count that.
vs.
If I was going EK and started as a Wizard I'd get Scribe Scroll (bonus), a School Power usable 3 + Int per day, Arcane Bond (+1 spontaneous extra spell at highest level).
Assuming the Magus used the Wizard's full spell list that at 1st level it comes down to "I have fun for 2 maybe 3 rounds per day, then I'm down to cantrips and no spell strike" (magus), against "I can go almost all encounters of the day and do something useful at least once in each" (wizard).
Jason had already said somewhere words to the effect that the Magus gets showy spells. So I wouldn't expect to see Necromantic or perhaps enchantment spells in there. I suggest it is probably just easier to say he gets all of certain schools lists and not other schools - perhaps qualified further that summon spells aren't allowed for example.
Aside: Why Mage Armor when he can wear armor?
I would expect to see a bunch of touch spells mirroring the showy magic weapon spells such as flaming, frost, shock flaming burst - or simpler make it a class feature rather than more new spells.
The class at the moment seems mostly about weapon enhancing and buffs, with a sideline in other spells.
Mage armor just felt appropriate for a magus who wishes to go unarmored.
As for only being 'showy' spells, I feel like that makes the class worthless. Most groups have about 4 slots in them for players(I usually try for 5-6, but then 1-2 people don't show up), which are traditionally for a melee, a skill-based char, a divine caster, and an arcanist. Depending on level, a druid can fill in for a cleric, a host of classes can fill in for fighter, and sorcerers can fill in for wizards, and at least 2 other classes can fill in for a rogue.
Hybrid classes, like the Inquisitor, Bard, and Summoner, all have spell lists that are adjusted to allow them to take the role of a class if necessary. The same can't be said about the Magus, which has no utility spells. Right now, it can't fill in as the party melee, and Jason (and a couple of posters) has been adamant that it's a caster first and a warrior second, which implies that it should be able to act as party arcanist. If it can only buff and nuke, it can't do this, so I don't see it being welcome in a lot of parties.
I'm open to adding different spells, but it must have at least some utility spells to be worth it.
**clipped**I would expect to see a bunch of touch spells mirroring the showy magic weapon spells such as flaming, frost, shock flaming burst - or simpler make it a class feature rather than more new spells.
The Arcane Weapon class feature is already there at 4th level! :-)
The class could use weapon-styled spells that might help with the action-economy issues. Stealing from the clerical list, the magus could get spiritual weapon or blade barrier. Weapon-spells replicated from older sources, like cloud of knives (PHB2), whirling blade, or ring of blades (both from the Spell Compendium), could make the magus closer to effective in melee and close-range combat.
A buffing spell similar to righteous might could be a step up from enlarge person and bull's strength. Freedom of movement seems a shoo-in, for someone who needs to be unhindered in the midst of melee. Making the wounds dealt particularly nasty via something like infernal wound (SC) seems apt for a melee-mage.
Various extradimensional movement spells, like benign and baleful transposition (SC) or the various dimension dance-steps (PHB2), would make the magus far more flexible in getting where he needs to be. And defensive measures like blink should absolutely be on the list.
More conjuration battlefield-control spells, like the varied pit spells from the APG, would make a great deal of sense as well. They fit in well with the area-control spells the class already possesses (glitterdust, stinking cloud, black tentacles, etc.).
And, as everyone previous has said, the class absolutely needs more touch spells. Given the class's focus on conjuration, evocation, and transmutation (rather than necromancy), close-range elemental spells like electric loop, fireburst, and combust, (SC) could potentially fit the existing class model.
That said... the various (Bigby's) hand spells seem like a complete waste. They do for wizards as well, but with a magus the spell-list is limited enough already that I'd much rather see those two thrown out in favor of more class-useful spells.
Vanish must be on the Magus spell list!
Agreed. It would fit in nicely with the limited capability for illusion spells the class already has.
I think it would just be easiest to give them the full Sorcerer/Wizard spell list. It would give the magus some versatility outside of combat, let everyone make the kind of magus they want to make (buffer, blaster, or area controller, etc.), and give the magus support in both past and future products, including backwards compatability with 3.5 materials.
It might be interesting to have a Magus Arcana that gives the magus access to some spells off the magus/sorcerer/wizard spell list. That way, the magus can choose to get flame blade, inflict light wounds, silence, spiritual weapon, blade barrier, etc. if he wants it. And since the magus is only a 6 level caster, it won't be unbalancing to give him that versatility.
I was actually surprised when the magus came out and it didn't use the sorc/wiz spell list. If it's a prepared caster, then isn't the point the fact that it can learn bucket-loads of spells? As it stands, it feels more like he has the spell pool of a spontaneous caster that just happens to be forced to prepare his spells, too (the worst of both worlds, in other words), AND can't take extra arcana as a feat. Overall, I think it needs the full list.
And flashy? Really? If you're going with flashy, then shouldn't the class's flavor reflect that idea? Shouldn't it be a glory-seeking soldier of fortune? With the current flavor of the class, I rather see a jedi-like warrior monk (one of the things I love about the class) who focuses more on his own power than anything else.
I agree with most of the spells suggested here, but think it could be simplified just by giving it the full sorc/wiz list.
What would be cool (but would require extra design work) would be to give the Magus several Magus-only variants of the standard stabyacadabra spells, similar to the Paladin getting the superior bless weapon in place of align weapon.
I have to disagree. I really really really don't want to see Magus-only spells, at least with the class fluff as presented. Oracles and witches have at least some rationale for having different spell lists (fickle otherworldly patrons) but the magus is specifically presented as a guy who studies wizard spells. No reason to have special spells.
I want to second (or third) giving the Magus the Wiz/Sor spell list. There is simply no way, given the slower/lower spell progression, that a Magus with the full spell list is ever going to outshine the Wizard in spell casting. I just can't see it.
I want to second (or third) giving the Magus the Wiz/Sor spell list. There is simply no way, given the slower/lower spell progression, that a Magus with the full spell list is ever going to outshine the Wizard in spell casting. I just can't see it.
I don't think that's the point. The point is that, like the summoner, the magus focuses on a somewhat narrow class of spells to specialize in -- those most directly relating to combat, buffing, or battlefield control. It makes no sense for the magus to have access to charm person, knock, clairvoyance, or remove curse.
The magus isn't meant to be the generalist the wizard can be -- he's a specialist, primed for combat. He's not a sneak, or a diviner, or a charmer -- the way the class is laid out, he's meant to be an up-in-the-enemy's-face combatant trying to contribute to the front line of melee. Mind you, the designers still have some work to do on that front, but... count me against giving the magus the full sorcerer/wizard spell list.
The point is that, like the summoner, the magus focuses on a somewhat narrow class of spells to specialize in -- those most directly relating to combat, buffing, or battlefield control. It makes no sense for the magus to have access to charm person, knock, clairvoyance, or remove curse.
But it makes sense for him to have arcane mark, dancing lights, ghost sound, light, mage hand, open/close, prestidigitation, feather fall, floating disk, mount, silent image, unseen servant, minor image, daylight, overland flight, and true seeing?
The magus clearly does not specialize in a narrow class of spells most directly relating to combat, buffing, or battlefield control.
I think the magus should get the whole sor/wiz list. Then, if he wants to, he can specialize in buffing, blasting, and battlefield control. If he wants to, he can be a generalist. Or he can specialize in summons (and be the general of elementals!), dispelling, gathering info, blowing stuff up, transportation, charming, illusions, trickery, transformations, etc. Some might want to transform into different beasts and then wade into combat. Others might want to be able to fight and get off some interesting effects to help their allies, like glitterdust, knock, heroism, grease, etc.
I think the best way to make the class spell list is to give people the most ways to make the characters they want to play.
The magus might be a great "jack of all trades" class for a small party with a DM that recognizes the limitations of lacking a full tank or full caster.
But it makes sense for him to have arcane mark, dancing lights, ghost sound, light, mage hand, open/close, prestidigitation, feather fall, floating disk, mount, silent image, unseen servant, minor image, daylight, overland flight, and true seeing?
The magus clearly does not specialize in a narrow class of spells most directly relating to combat, buffing, or battlefield control.
Let's see... zero-level generalist spells? Check.
Spells to illuminate a darkened battlefield or dungeon where opposing monsters might lurk (light, dancing lights, daylight)? Check.
Spells to quickly and safely get over to, down to or up to where the opposition is (mount, feather fall, overland flight, dimension door)? Check.
Spells to momentarily distract the opposition into wasting spells or ammunition (ghost sound, minor/major image, mirror image)? Check.
Spells to help carry away the loot after you've killed the opposition (floating disk, unseen servant)? Check.
And true seeing has a combat purpose so obvious I really don't need to state it.
I'm waiting to hear a rationale for why the magus should have spells like identify, arcane lock, command undead, tongues, enervation, or feeblemind. So far, I don't believe anyone has offered one beyond "because I want it".
If we are to allow the magus some measure of spells beyond what's on their list, I'd say using the old warmage mechanic would be best -- allow them to take a bonus spell every so often from the evocation, conjuration, transmutation, and maybe illusion/abjuration lists. I really don't think we're going to get the full wizard spell list for this class, guys.
The magus should get access to all sorcerer/wizard spells because it's The Magus!!!! The very word means mage! It's not like the other non-sorcerer/wizard arcane casters.
The beguiler has spells that are good at seduction and misdirection.
The duskblade (which has a weird name) has spells of buffing, moving, close range blasts, and enemy detection.
The shadowcaster has spells (or "mysteries") that deal with darkness and deception.
The warmage has spells that deal with blasting and more blasting.
The summoner deals with spells that conjure creatures and buff them a bit.
The bard deals with spells that buff or sing or divine secrets.
The wu jen deals with spells of the 4 or 5 elements.
The warlock is also an odd class, but mostly deals with at will blasts or 24 hour self-buffs.
The spellthief is a thief, so uses relatively subtle magics and steals from other spellcasters.
The hexblade mostly hinders opponents so he can wack at them easier.
The Magus doesn't fill a specific niche. It is a generalist class that can switch roles between fighting in melee and casting spells. Some of its class features let it do both at once, but it doesn't have to do both at once. It can be more flexible than that. If the magus is in a large party with a regular wizard and a regular fighter, it can choose to do the "fighting magician" thing, especially if he is the 5th PC. If the magus is in a smaller party, say with a rogue and cleric, it may fill in the role of fighter during fights and wizard during utilitarian challenges. As such, it needs access to all the spells wizards have, especially since their spell casting progression is delayed due to their dual focus.
The magus should get access to all sorcerer/wizard spells because it's The Magus!!!! The very word means mage! It's not like the other non-sorcerer/wizard arcane casters.
The beguiler has spells that are good at seduction and misdirection.
The duskblade (which has a weird name) has spells of buffing, moving, close range blasts, and enemy detection.
The shadowcaster has spells (or "mysteries") that deal with darkness and deception.
The warmage has spells that deal with blasting and more blasting.
The summoner deals with spells that conjure creatures and buff them a bit.
The bard deals with spells that buff or sing or divine secrets.
The wu jen deals with spells of the 4 or 5 elements.
The warlock is also an odd class, but mostly deals with at will blasts or 24 hour self-buffs.
The spellthief is a thief, so uses relatively subtle magics and steals from other spellcasters.
The hexblade mostly hinders opponents so he can wack at them easier.
The Magus doesn't fill a specific niche. It is a generalist class that can switch roles between fighting in melee and casting spells. Some of its class features let it do both at once, but it doesn't have to do both at once. It can be more flexible than that. If the magus is in a large party with a regular wizard and a regular fighter, it can choose to do the "fighting magician" thing, especially if he is the 5th PC. If the magus is in a smaller party, say with a rogue and cleric, it may fill in the role of fighter during fights and wizard during utilitarian challenges. As such, it needs access to all the spells wizards have, especially since their spell casting progression is delayed due to their dual focus.
Ahhh, see, this is where our views diverge. I GM and play in a set of Pathfinder-only campaigns, with only a very small amount of pre-PF classes and miscellanea allowed to trickle in. The bard is in, obviously, and the warlock (since its class progression seems to mime the PF core-class level progression of "no dead levels"), but the rest isn't allowed in. Within PF core, there really isn't a good fighter/wizard option yet -- and the magus, as seen in the alpha test, isn't there yet either.
I do agree with you on the whole "magus means mage!" bit, all in all. That's one of the reasons I'm not entirely happy with the class name. *grin* That said, the fluff text of the class -- in the very first paragraph! -- specifically says "The magus uses both spell and steel to devastating effect, casting spells and swinging blades with ease. Rising in power, the magus unlocks powerful forms of arcana that allow him to merge his talents. At the pinnacles of power, the magus becomes a blur of steel and magic, a force that few foes would dare to stand against."
If that doesn't specifically say "front-line combat spellcaster", I don't know what wording will change your mind. The class is not meant to serve as a utilitarian spellcaster. If that's what you need in a party, then you should be recruiting extra players to have someone bring in a full-on sorcerer or wizard. ; )
I kind of see the magus as a Gandalf. He usually uses his sword, sometimes enhanced by magic and spell, and sometimes he goes on an all out spell assault. But he also uses his magic for utilitarian reasons, and may act as the primary spellcaster if stuck with a bunch of muggles....er, hobbits and archers and dwarves, oh my!!!
I kind of see the magus as a Gandalf. He usually uses his sword, sometimes enhanced by magic and spell, and sometimes he goes on an all out spell assault. But he also uses his magic for utilitarian reasons, and may act as the primary spellcaster if stuck with a bunch of muggles....er, hobbits and archers and dwarves, oh my!!!
That's a fair image to have in mind. But looking back at Gandalf -- what's actually in the text, I mean -- the guy used very little that wasn't already on the magus spell list. *grin*
Impressive fireworks that danced in the skies? Pyrotechnics and major image.
Adding his own extra something to the flood that overthrew the Nazgul at the ford? Major image. Gandalf freely admitted he just threw some extra imagery in there; he didn't cause the flood himself.
A blast of flame that drove back the goblins at the door in Moria? Burning hands. Or scorching bolt.
Lighting the darkness in the deep halls of Moria? Light, and daylight.
Breaking the Bridge at Khazad-Dum? Shatter. (Well, maybe. Up to 10 lbs. per level might not cover shattering the keystone of a bridge.)
The only extra things I can think of are him trying (unsuccessfully) to open the door to Moria (knock?) and sealing a later door against the fury of various other attackers, the balrog among them (arcane lock). I could see adding those spells to the magus's class list -- or better yet, allowing a magus arcana to be adding a spell from the abjuration, conjuration, evocation, or transmutation schools of the general sorcerer/wizard spell list. It could even be handled in a fashion similar to how the sorcerer currently swaps out spells -- you could grab any one spell from one of those schools, but it would have to be at least one level lower than the highest spell level you could currently cast. That would allow for some really cool flexibility and individuality amongst various magi.
I'm waiting to hear a rationale for why the magus should have spells like identify, arcane lock, command undead, tongues, enervation, or feeblemind. So far, I don't believe anyone has offered one beyond "because I want it".
Identify: "I defeated my foe. Now my magic will reveal the power of his weapons and armor."
Arcane Lock: "Good thing I was able to seal the door behind us during our combat withdrawal."
Command Undead: "Hi, I'm an evil Magus who dabbles in Necromancy. Meet my new friend, the zombie. He will make a great flanking partner, since combat is my specialty."
Tongues: "I have traveled across the Planes to challenge you, Ztjeilsnlt, of the Haldi'aritnosornvvvea Clan, to fight for the secrets of arcane/martial power that you are said to grant to those who defeat you."
Ennervation: Really? Okay. "I use my magical abilities to directly attack my opponent with a ray spell that just so happens to play directly to my one advantage over (most) other arcane casters, a better BAB...errr...I mean, my better martial ability."
I really don't think we're going to get the full wizard spell list for this class, guys.
This is most likely correct. It is also, most likely, a mistake.
The Magus needs some flexibility. Expanding the spell list is the easiest way to accomplish that.
This is most likely correct. It is also, most likely, a mistake.
The Magus needs some flexibility. Expanding the spell list is the easiest way to accomplish that.
Oh, agreed -- but I don't think it's the strict purview of the magus to do all of that. He's like the sorcerer, limited in what he can apply his focus to.
On the other hand, it looks like SmiloDan and I both independently came up with an alternative -- make it so that one (or more) of the magus arcana grant additional spells known, rather like the domains of a cleric. I doubt such an arcana would add to the number of spells castable per day -- that would just be rather broken, if applied multiple times -- but it would certainly expand the flexibility of the class.
Magus schools would be awesome. They could be distinct and separate from wizard schools, and would allow some degree of customization. Perhaps... a ranged school? A two-handed-weapon school? With spells chosen to augment these abilities?
this is the best answer i have seen so far. It would still make the Magus distinct but add more customization that i think the Magus needs anyway, in order to be like the other spell casters. Maybe instead of the bonus feats, have weapon specialization much like the ranger allowing him to cast spells wile holding a 2 handed weapon or 2 weapons. (i thank that there is the workings for one really powerful cross bow sniper in the Magus)
ps: he should have poison