People complaining about "THE ANIME WORLD" either makes me laugh or sob, I'm not sure which.
It's like complaining that D&D is THE MASS PRODUCED BOOK WORLD or the TERRIBLE MOVIE WORLD.
I mean for christ's sakes the game came out of terrible 70's pulp books. It's never been a bastion of intellectual superiority. Oh no, the game might draw inspiration that something that isn't thirty years old! Whatever shall we do?!
While stealthy monks may have been around since the Nara Period about 800 AD, the better known ninja appear to be more common during the Sengoku Period 1350 - 1450Fool. Don't you know that ninjas are older than time? The first ninja created the universe. You might think it was some old bearded Jewish guy named Yahweh, some Arabic dude name Allah, or something similar; but that's ridiculous. I'll prove it.
1. Ninjas are Asian.
2. Yahweh is Jewish.
3. It's Asian, so it's better.Therefore, thusly, and in conclusion; ninjas created the universe and everything in it. They made non-ninjas for the sole purpose of having something to chop in half.
Oy vey .....
|
Well, the Rogue in Pathfinder is *SO* good that it will be hard to top. The only thing I can see them improving upon is more oriental themed abilities.
Perhaps the Ninja is a Rogue prestige class. Certainly a true Ninja must learn to do all the things a basic rogue can do prior to ever being called a ninja.
And that's what I call Real Ultimste Power!!!While stealthy monks may have been around since the Nara Period about 800 AD, the better known ninja appear to be more common during the Sengoku Period 1350 - 1450Fool. Don't you know that ninjas are older than time? The first ninja created the universe. You might think it was some old bearded Jewish guy named Yahweh, some Arabic dude name Allah, or something similar; but that's ridiculous. I'll prove it.
1. Ninjas are Asian.
2. Yahweh is Jewish.
3. It's Asian, so it's better.Therefore, thusly, and in conclusion; ninjas created the universe and everything in it. They made non-ninjas for the sole purpose of having something to chop in half.
Izanami and Izanagi were sister and brother deities sent from the Heavens to the Earth which was entirely covered by ocean. Izanagi the male, had a sword that he dipped into the water and drew back out. The water dripping off the sword created the first islands, which became Japan. From their first 'interactions' was born all the other deities - this is how the world began.
Following thousands of years and the birth of hundreds of gods, before humans were first created. There was even a war between the gods before the first men came to Japan. The idea of ninja would not come to pass until early in the Heian Period about 200 AD, already thousands years into human history.
GP
|
And that's what I call Real Ultimste Power!!!While stealthy monks may have been around since the Nara Period about 800 AD, the better known ninja appear to be more common during the Sengoku Period 1350 - 1450Fool. Don't you know that ninjas are older than time? The first ninja created the universe. You might think it was some old bearded Jewish guy named Yahweh, some Arabic dude name Allah, or something similar; but that's ridiculous. I'll prove it.
1. Ninjas are Asian.
2. Yahweh is Jewish.
3. It's Asian, so it's better.Therefore, thusly, and in conclusion; ninjas created the universe and everything in it. They made non-ninjas for the sole purpose of having something to chop in half.
Izanami and Izanagi were sister and brother deities sent from the Heavens to the Earth which was entirely covered by ocean. Izanagi the male, had a sword that he dipped into the water and drew back out. The water dripping off the sword created the first islands, which became Japan. From their first 'interactions' was born all the other deities - this is how the world began.
GP
You are both wrong!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_creation_myths
:p
I am referencing the English Translation of the Nihon Shoki - the Japanese text of Heaven that explains the origins of the gods, the world, and how Ameterasu Omikami gave birth to Jimmu the first emperor of the Yamato state.
It appears that Wikipedia didn't actually reference that text, so I'm afraid to report that once again, wikipedia is wrong.
GP
|
|
I am referencing the English Translation of the Nihon Shoki - the Japanese text of Heaven that explains the origins of the gods, the world, and how Ameterasu Omikami gave birth to Jimmu the first emperor of the Yamato state.
It appears that Wikipedia didn't actually reference that text, so I'm afraid to report that once again, wikipedia is wrong.
GP
But what makes Wikipedia great is you can fix that oversight!
I think it would be neat if there were a magic-based class that did what a rogue does, just like the magus is a magic-based class that does what a fighter does.
This magic could be spells, spell-like abilities, or unique supernatural powers.
And when I think about what a rogue does, I think about dealing with traps and other trickery, having a wide variety of skills, and the ability to situationally cause a lot of extra damage.
|
|
People complaining about "THE ANIME WORLD" either makes me laugh or sob, I'm not sure which.
It's like complaining that D&D is THE MASS PRODUCED BOOK WORLD or the TERRIBLE MOVIE WORLD.
I mean for christ's sakes the game came out of terrible 70's pulp books. It's never been a bastion of intellectual superiority. Oh no, the game might draw inspiration that something that isn't thirty years old! Whatever shall we do?!
Again, Cirno, you put me in the unpalatable position of having to agree with you. XD
Seriously, though, I get kind of tired of the anti-anime folks not seeming to understand that anime is a medium, not a genre. Complaining about "anime influences" is like complaining about "comic book influences" or "film influences." =p
Jeremy Puckett
Seriously, though, I get kind of tired of the anti-anime folks not seeming to understand that anime is a medium, not a genre. Complaining about "anime influences" is like complaining about "comic book influences" or "film influences." =p
In all seriousness, some GMs would have a valid complaint about these styles intruding on their beloved fantasy pulp tropes. That's what pushes some thing like Ninjas well into the realm of a "style-of-play" issue.
Golarion can handle it. it can handle Anime and magic ninjas, it can handle Sun-Tzu and historical ninjas. Look at how many conflicting tropes were crammed into the inner sea region. Some of those regions really don't do it for me, but it's been created in a way where I don't have to interact with the parts I don't dig.
Why are people even the least bit worried about the inclusion of this stuff? Paizo's going to do what it feels right, and chances are they're going to include multiple things that piss off both camps, because Golarion is an inclusive setting.
People complaining about "THE ANIME WORLD" either makes me laugh or sob, I'm not sure which.
It's like complaining that D&D is THE MASS PRODUCED BOOK WORLD or the TERRIBLE MOVIE WORLD.
I mean for christ's sakes the game came out of terrible 70's pulp books. It's never been a bastion of intellectual superiority. Oh no, the game might draw inspiration that something that isn't thirty years old! Whatever shall we do?!
One major impetus for me designing a Japan-based setting, is that IMO, no movie nor RPG game got it right, at least none I have witnessed. Nothing from 30 years ago, and nothing from freshly made manga in Japan.
My perceptions are based on what I've read and experienced while in Japan, what my Japanese relatives show as their own perceptions, compared to what's been put out there by the various media, including amime.
I'm sure it fits someone's perceptions of that, and nothing wrong with that, however, I still intend to attempt to remediate that in my publication (whether I succeed or not is another question altogether.)
GP
Truthfully, All Paizo needed to every make was 3 classes.
Warrior, Mage, Specialist..
With that, all classes could have been created.
Perhaps even create rules for combing two or three classes together, so you would have Warrior-Mage, Mage-Specialist, Warrior-Specialist, Warrior-Mage-Specialist.
Then boom. From Specialist, Rogues, Monks, Ninjas, ect could be created.
From warrior, Barbarians and Fighters
From Mage, Wizard and Sorcerer
From Warrior-Mage, Rangers and Paladins
From Mage-Specialist, Clerics, Bards..
Then all would be created, and none will be not.
Yeah....
Is that all? After a week of silence from this horrid thread, you raise it for "Yeah...."
*shudder*
|
Jason apparently talked about there plans about the Ninja/samurai at Neoncon. sadly I wasn't there and haven't been able to find anyone that was so I have no idea what was said or discussed. If Jason or someone who was at the seminar would like to tell us what was talked about I would be most appreciative.
I don't know if he would want to do that in a thread that is full of heating arguments. Although I would love to hear what their thinking on the general subject of what makes a ninja a ninja, and what influences they are looking at for golarion ninjas in particular. Perhaps I will have to use the ninja hold breath method ...
I don't know if he would want to do that in a thread that is full of heating arguments. Although I would love to hear what their thinking on the general subject of what makes a ninja a ninja, and what influences they are looking at for golarion ninjas in particular. Perhaps I will have to use the ninja hold breath method ...
Master of the Five Winds
Requirements:
Alignment: Any non-chaotic.
BAB: +5,
Base Will +5
Endurance, Improved Unarmed Strike
5 ranks in Knowledge religion or Knowledge nature
Class Features:
BAB: +¾
Good Prestige Saves: Fortitude, Medium, Will
Hit Dice: 1d8
Class Skills: Acrobatics, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Heal, Knowledge arcane, Knowledge history, Knowledge nature, Knowledge planes, Knowledge religion, Linguistics, Perception, Perform, Profession, Sense Motive, Stealth, Survival, Swim.
Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier.
Masters of the Five Winds do not gain any armor or weapon proficiencies.
Level Ability
1. First Breathing Style, Monastic Traditions
2. Enduring Breath
3. Second Breathing Style
4. Improved Breathing Styles
5. Third Breathing Style
6. Steady Breathing
7. Fourth Breathing Style
8. Advanced Breathing Styles
9. Fifth Breathing Style
10. Harmonious Breaths
Breathing Styles (Su) Beginning at first level, the Master of the Five Winds learns to meditate and control his breathing to gain inner peace and focus. This allows him to manifest powers and abilities based on the five elements of earth, fire, metal, water, and wood. The Master of the Five Winds learns one Breathing Style at first level and an additional one every odd level thereafter (3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th). He can learn them in any order of his choice.
It takes the Master of the Five Winds a full round action to enter a state of meditation that allows him access to the abilities of one of his Breathing Styles; the Master of the Five Winds can only enter one such meditative state at a time, and he can maintain it for as long as he can hold his breath (typically a number of rounds equal to twice his Constitution score, after that period, he must make a DC 10 Constitution check each round, with the DC increasing by +1 each round after the first). The Save DC, if any, of any Master of the Five Winds abilities is 10 + the Master of the Five Wind’s class level + his Constitution modifier.
At 4th level, the Master of the Five Winds gains access to the Improved abilities of the Breathing Styles he knows. At 8th level, the Master of the Five Winds gains access to the Advanced abilities of the Breathing Styles he knows.
Breath of the Hammer of the Forge.
Metal is the element of the Breath of the Hammer of the Forge. While in this meditative state, the Master of the Five Winds gains DR/- equal to the Constitution bonus; this damage reduction is doubled if the Master of the Five Winds take a full round action concentrating on this meditative state. While in this meditative state, his unarmed strikes strike as slashing weapons and have a critical threat range of 19-20/x2.
The Improved Ability of this breathing technique is the Sundering Skin, while in this meditative state, he causes damage equal to his character level plus his Constitution modifier to any weapon that strikes him; if this causes enough damage to destroy the opponent’s weapon, the attack does no damage. The Master of the Five Winds’ unarmed strikes improve to have a critical threat range of 18-20/x3.
The Advanced Ability of the Breath of the Hammer of the Forge is an Iron Body effect with a duration equal to the length of his meditative state. His unarmed strike improves again, with a critical threat range of 17-20/x4.
Breath of the Pulse of the Earth.
Earth is the element of the Breath of the Pulse of the Earth. Masters of the Five Winds that learn this breathing technique gain a sacred bonus to all Saving Throws equal to ½ the Master of the Five Winds’ class level (minimum +1) while in the meditative state; this bonus is doubled if the Master of the Five Winds takes a full round action to concentrate on this breathing technique. The Master of the Five Winds also gains a bonus equal to his class level on his CMB and CMD affecting Bull Rush, Overrun, and Trip attempts while in his meditative state.
The Improved Ability of this breathing technique is called Bound to the Earth. The Master of the Five Winds gains the ability to ignore all penalties to speed because of difficult terrain and emit an aura that causes opponents within 5 feet per Constitution bonus of the Master of the Five Winds to treat any terrain they travel through as difficult terrain; if the Master of the Five Winds takes a full round action to concentrate on this power, the penalty of moving through his aura of difficult terrain is doubled. The Master of the Five Winds can cause the earth to tremor, causing all opponents within his Bound to the Earth that fail a Reflex Saving throw to become prone and take 1d6 points of non-lethal damage for every 2 levels of the Master of the Five Winds; using this ability reduces the duration of the state by 10 rounds.
The Advanced Ability of this breathing technique allows the Master of the Five Winds to use the Statue spell on himself, with a duration equal to his held breath. He can also use Earthquake as a full round action, but doing so reduces the duration of his breathing technique by 20 rounds.
Breath of the Rolling Waves.
Water is the element of the Breath of the Rolling Waves. The Master of the Five Winds gains a swim speed equal to his land speed and a +8 racial bonus on Swim skill checks. While in the meditative state of the Breath of the Rolling Waves, the Master of the Five Winds gains Fast Healing 1; this improves to Fast Healing 2 if the Master of the Five Winds concentrates on his meditative state as a full round action.
The Improved Ability of this breathing technique increases the rate of Fast Healing to 2, which improves to Fast Healing 5 if the Master of the Five Winds takes a full round action. He also gains Freedom of Movement and Water Walking while in this meditative state.
The Advanced Ability of this breathing technique increases the rate of Fast Healing to 5, which improves to Fast Healing 10 if the Master of the Five Winds takes a full round action. He can also transform himself and his companions into rushing water; this is identical to the spell Windwalk except the subjects must travel through a watery medium.
Breath of the Stirring Embers
Fire is the element of the Breath of Stirring Embers. While in this meditative state, the Master of the Five Winds benefits from Endure Elements and Haste. As a full round action, he gains Cold Resistance 10 and Fire Resistance 10, but loses the benefits of Haste for the round.
The Improved Ability of this breathing technique grants the Master of the Five Winds Cold Resistance and Fire Resistance equal to his Constitution bonus multiplied by 5; this increases to immunity to cold and fire if he takes a full round action concentrating on his meditative state. His unarmed strikes gain the Flaming Burst weapon special quality while in this meditative state.
The Advanced Ability of this breathing technique grants the Master of the Five Winds with the benefits of the Fire Shield spell for the duration of the meditative state. The Master of the Five Winds can also breathe out a cone of fire as a standard action; this reduces the duration of the meditative state by 10 rounds. Treat this as a cone of cold spell that causes fire damage and has a caster level equal to the Master of the Five Wind’s class level.
Breath of the Trees Growing
Wood is the element of the Breath of Trees Growing. While in this meditative state, the Master of the Five Winds gains a Natural Armor bonus to AC equal to his Constitution bonus; this is doubled if the Master of the Five Winds takes a full round action concentrating on this breathing technique. He can also use Enlarge Person on himself while in this meditative state, but doing so reduces the duration by 10 rounds.
The Improved Ability of this breathing technique grants the Master of the Five Winds the Shadow of the Forest. He gains a +8 competence bonus to Stealth, Hide in Plain Sight, and Lesser Fortification against critical hits. He can sustain himself on sunshine while in this state, and in fact is healed instead of harmed by damage from light-based spells and effects.
The Advanced Ability of this breathing technique allows the Master of the Five Winds to use a version of Giant Form II that also grants him the benefits of the Plant type.
Monastic Traditions (Ex). Master of the Five Winds levels stack with monk levels for the purposes of any monk ability the Master of the Five Winds has already gained from the following list: AC bonus, fast movement, flurry of blows, ki pool, slow fall, unarmed damage, and wholeness of body.
Enduring Breath (Ex). Beginning at second level, the Master of the Five Winds adds ½ his class level to his Constitution score when determining how long he can hold his breath. He adds ½ his class level to his Constitution checks to hold his breath.
Steady Breathing (Ex). The Master of the Five Winds never reduces the duration he can hold his breath due to strenuous activity, such as combat.
Harmonious Breaths (Ex). The Master of the Five Winds can enter a number of meditative states based on his Breathing Styles equal to his Constitution bonus (minimum 2, up to a maximum of all 5). Each meditative state requires a full round action, and they must be performed consecutively with no interruptions.
Ahhhh!
*kills the thread again, cuts it's head off, stuffs garlic in it's mouth, shoves a stake in it's heart, immerses it in holy water, and has the grave site consecrated! Stay dead, damn you!
Ironic, that
Edit- Kthulu, you of all people should know that there are some evils so great that they cannot be killed. You can only hope that they stay berried deep underground ground, where they cannot threaten the sanity of all. Alas, sometime they awaken ...
Since we're all here, would anyone like to see my home-brew ninja class? It has HISTORICALLY ACCURATE MAGIC ANIME POWERS, and is also a Rogue.
Since we're all here, would anyone like to see my home-brew ninja class? It has HISTORICALLY ACCURATE MAGIC ANIME POWERS, and is also a Rogue.Does it have a +87 vorpal katana of uber-epic ninja death attack?
Real ninjas had no swords at all. They were disenfranchised samurai of the Tokugawa period who fought with only dirt. And they never ever wore black pajamas, only gaijin think so because of stupid anime.
|
|
Real ninjas had no swords at all. They were disenfranchised samurai of the Tokugawa period who fought with only dirt. And they never ever wore black pajamas, only gaijin think so because of stupid anime.
Ok. Is it +87 vorpal dirt of uber-epic ninja death attack?
Ok. Is it +87 vorpal dirt of uber-epic ninja death attack?
yes.
Does it have rainbows that shoot from it's crotch? Everyone knows that's a super ninja power.
Does it have rainbows that shoot from it's crotch? Everyone knows that's a super ninja power.
Those aren't rainbows...
<hands Seeker a kleenex>
Does it ride an Attack Robot Unicorn while listening to Heavy Metal? .... Or does that go to far?
There is no doubt that a ninja has a place in an Eastern-centered game. It has a place in DnD, if you consider DnD to be a mishmash of different influences.
There is, at least in the US, a fascination with "things Asian" that would make it sell well, so the audience will be there.
Whether folks care for it or not, it exists, and has a place among the broader genre--though not in more specific settings.
My personal take on it is this: I don't care for ninjas, but if I was in Paizo's position, I'd encourage it to be developed, because there is interest and it's a valid concept. Too, the game is as much business as much as it is a beloved hobby, and this is an area where giving a nod to some dedicated, interested folks also helps the rest of us in the long run, by ensuring the company stays afloat.
I would like a Ninja class. I was building a Monk/Rogue into a Ninja but I would rather have the class itself.
We have the magus as a sorcerer/fighter amalgam, I don't see why we can't have a monk/rogue one.
I would like a Ninja class. I was building a Monk/Rogue into a Ninja but I would rather have the class itself.We have the magus as a sorcerer/fighter amalgam, I don't see why we can't have a monk/rogue one.
BECAUSE, by jingo, the ninja must be MORE than other classes... or LESS than a class! There is no middle ground and the certainly aren't multiple logical approaches! KNOW YOU NOTHING OF NINJAS, man?
Woot! I got to flag Evil Lincoln!
EDIT: I'm just kidding :)
Woot! I got to flag Evil Lincoln!
EDIT: I'm just kidding :)
You better be. I'm performing a public service here.
You better be. I'm performing a public service here.Woot! I got to flag Evil Lincoln!
EDIT: I'm just kidding :)
A public service? I'm so HAPPY!
(+1 to Evil Lincoln's thoughts)
A public service? I'm so HAPPY!
(+1 to Evil Lincoln's thoughts)
You and the Confederacy will never force the Evil Union to free our slaves, Booth, no matter how nice you are to me!
You and the Confederacy will never force the Evil Union to free our slaves, Booth, no matter how nice you are to me!
A public service? I'm so HAPPY!
(+1 to Evil Lincoln's thoughts)
........
Please?
No.
No.
*sigh*
Well it was a tough fight but I understand your position, thanks for trying to talk things through!
I'm glad i'm part of this community. You guys are hilarious.
Maybe there should be:
A Ninja Sneak with +3/4 BAB, Good Reflex, 1d8 HD, 6 + Int Skills.
A Ninja Soldier with +1 BAB, Good Fort, 1d10 HD, 4 + Int Skills.
A Ninja Magician with +1/2 BAB, Good Will, 1d6 HD, 4 + Int Skills.
Sneak possibly with 6/9 caster (a la bard)
Soldier possible with 4/9 caster (a la ranger)
Magician definitely with full 9/9 casting (a la wizard, or possibly using the shadowcaster for inspiration.
Here's some more food for thought. If there are SOOOOOOO many variations of ninjas out there, that tells me it might be best dealt with as a prestige class. Something that any class can get into with the right prereqs.
You might structure its so that it starts with a background feat like "ninja village" which gives your character a few ninja like skills, and context for later training. It could be even a 2-3 feat chain if you wanted to make ninja training very costly and grueling, costing lots of the character's free time.
Then at 6th level you get entry into the class, and start to get a mix of rogue and monk features (or just rogue features if you must. Thus is really about describing the path rather than the specifics).
Part of the reason this occurs to me is the 1st edition oriental adventures had ninjas work this way. They were one of the first pestige classes, and way for humans to multiclass when they couldn't (they could usually only dual class, except in special instances such as bards and thief acrobats). One of the reasons I think they did this is ninjas in history are known for being able to blend into society as members of different castes, such as farmer, priests, musicians, samurai. What if those alternate identities were actually base classes?
edit - mind you I know some people have already offered prestige class ninjas here, I am just offering my reasoning as to why it might be the best way to go about it.
|
|
Here's some more food for thought. If there are SOOOOOOO many variations of ninjas out there, that tells me it might be best dealt with as a prestige class. Something that any class can get into with the right prereqs.
Or even simple a title. Seriously, do we have to create a new class, base or prestige, for EVERY SINGLE CONCEPT? That way madness lies. How about this:
An Asian barbarian wearing black pajamas can be called a ninja.
An Asian bard wearing black pajamas can be called a ninja.
An Asian cleric wearing black pajamas can be called a ninja.
An Asian druid wearing black pajamas can be called a ninja.
An Asian fighter wearing black pajamas can be called a ninja.
An Asian monk wearing black pajamas can be called a ninja.
An Asian ranger wearing black pajamas can be called a ninja.
An Asian rogue wearing black pajamas can be called a ninja.
An Asian sorcerer wearing black pajamas can be called a ninja.
An Asian wizard wearing black pajamas can be called a ninja.
An Asian alchemist wearing black pajamas can be called a ninja.
An Asian inquisitor wearing black pajamas can be called a ninja.
An Asian oracle wearing black pajamas can be called a ninja.
An Asian summoner wearing black pajamas can be called a ninja.
An Asian witch wearing black pajamas can be called a ninja.
An Asian magus wearing black pajamas can be called a ninja.
An Asian fighter can be called a samurai.
An Asian monk can be called a samurai.
An Asian paladin can be called a samurai.
An Asian ranger can be called a samurai.
An Asian cavalier can be called a samurai.
None of this requires any special classes, feats, traits, or other requirements. Just roleplaying.
You might structure its so that it starts with a background feat like "ninja village" which gives your character a few ninja like skills, and context for later training.
"Forget it, Jake. It's Ninjatown."
Evil Lincoln has just made the only post worth making
And funny, none of the ninja in my setting get to wear black pajamas at all.
GP
And funny, none of the ninja in my setting get to wear black pajamas at all.
GP
Then clearly they are not "real" ninja's.
"Forget it, Jake. It's Ninjatown."
Now I have funky town stuck in my head, only replaced with ninjatown...damn you
So... does anyone know what Jason et al said during the recent Con about the Samurai and Ninja?
Personally i see a ninja as a Rogue/Monk multiclass. That being said, im not of the opinion that there should be 658146956 PrC's in Pathfinder like in 3.5, but i do see some validity to a "Ninja" PrC that builds off this Rogue/Monk multiclass build.
-- just have "sudden strike" be "sneak attack"
-- add nifty "Ninja-y" ki powers
-- give them black pajamas =D