Interesting ideas. Actually both Vital Strike and Coup de Grace was on my mind regarding Iaijutsu duel, just hadn't put it together yet.
While the Feint option works, since it relies on Bluff, perhaps creating something different that utilizes Intimidation instead of Bluff, since that is more Samurai, and intimidating your opponent could lead to a condition that allows for a Coup de Grace.
Perhaps at 3rd level allow Iaijutsu Stance feat (which requires Quick Draw as a prerequisite), which allows you to attempt an intimidate check, a successful check means your strike causes maximum normal damage plus any applicable bonuses.
Then at 6th level, gain Vital Strike. Using Vital Strike with Iaijutsu Stance allows for the intimidation check once again, a successful check means you can perform a Coup de Grace on a successful hit. This way on a failed check you still get Iaijutsu Stance max damage, plus Vital Strike on the hopes you can still kill your opponent, even without a Coup de Grace.
Does that work?
GP
Interesting ideas. Actually both Vital Strike and Coup de Grace was on my mind regarding Iaijutsu duel, just hadn't put it together yet.
While the Feint option works, since it relies on Bluff, perhaps creating something different that utilizes Intimidation instead of Bluff, since that is more Samurai, and intimidating your opponent could lead to a condition that allows for a Coup de Grace.
Perhaps at 3rd level allow Iaijutsu Stance feat (which requires Quick Draw as a prerequisite), which allows you to attempt an intimidate check, a successful check means your strike causes maximum normal damage plus any applicable bonuses.
Then at 6th level, gain Vital Strike. Using Vital Strike with Iaijutsu Stance allows for the intimidation check once again, a successful check means you can perform a Coup de Grace on a successful hit. This way on a failed check you still get Iaijutsu Stance max damage, plus Vital Strike on the hopes you can still kill your opponent, even without a Coup de Grace.
Does that work?
GP
Well, mixing max damage and coup d'gras together might be too much. The fort checks to survive would go through the roof, and it ends up being to static of a system, IMHO. What if Iaijutsu stance gave you bonus of some kind to the feint/intimidation roll. Or perhaps it increased your sense motive defense.
Oooor you could have 2 feats, "Iaijutsu Stance" giving you +2 to intimidate, and a feat that gives you +2 to your sense motive DC. Both would be along the lines of the "improved" combat maneuver feats.
You might also include a little out of duel bonus. The stance might grant +2 damage when charging. The defense might allow you to spend a move action for a +2 to AC. thus playing with the stillness and motion aspects of iaijutsu.
I agree a cleric and a druid could be the same class, or if I had my way totally reworked. I don't think they intend to make a new class, but an archetype or sub class. I am cool with an archetype and new feats and rogue talents, I be fine with ninja as a rogue, but monk also gaining a ninja inspired archetype
I am wanting and think the rogue is the classic non mystic ninja, the black clad, weapon using ,assassin/spy. But am not opposed to other classes having archetypes pulled from ninja legend with different names. Kuji-kiri for example could be a neat mystic archetype for say the monk, ya could take shape shifting and make some kind of druid archetype
But if it uses the name ninja it should be a rogue is all I am saying as that class already does the common ninja tropes.
I am also pulling for a cavalier archetype for the samurai, new samurai orders could rock.
Then I guess you can see how much of a minority you are in with the market, as I am rather sure the majority of the people on the forums would like to keep the druid, verses not having them. So if you are a base of an extreme on the against side of a market it is safe to say I don't , or anyone else, has anything to worry about your comment afflicting the outcome of this decision.
I would bet a good many people would be ok with the druid being reworked. When ya get down to it druids and clerics do not fit the game as written, wizards can be balanced by spells but those two are anomalies that really need fixed at somepoint, but we got stuck with em for now.
And that has nothing to do with the fact a Ninja is a rogue :) Or that a Samurai is a caviler. I find the raving ninja fanbois such as yourself the minority, your just loud is all.
There have been as many in this thread say Ninja is just a rogue as there have been asking for a new class. The difference only two of us keep posting while a few of you guys keep posting.
Although it seems gameprinting is doing more or less what ya want, more power to him but I really don't want to see Paizo make a class solely because "Its Asian" which is the driving point from your guys side to be honest.
Honestly, I'm looking for what mechanics can I replace making an archetype of Cavalier to capture the iaijutsu duel concept of Samurai, at the moment, and the possibility of doing the same thing with base classes to create a ninja.
For me a rogue in Asia, is yakuza, nobushi, or one of the burglar types that I don't know the names for.
If there were a pure mystic saboteur/spy base class for Europe, then that would be easily converted to Ninja - but it ain't there. Rogue can be used if barely adequette works for you. I'd rather see something more specific.
Its not because its "Asian", its because the occupation/class of discussion doesn't currently exist in the game. Don't know why the archetype is not there, but should be. So we're working to create one callled Ninja.
The only thing "Asian" about it is that there is no "European" counterpart for what a ninja does (using mystical powers to obfuscate and observe, sabotage and assassinate) - its really more a commando, than say a rogue or spy or assassin.
GP
Although it seems gameprinting is doing more or less what ya want, more power to him but I really don't want to see Paizo make a class solely because "Its Asian" which is the driving point from your guys side to be honest.
I would bet money that they WON'T make new class. They will probably make an archetype, or possibly a FEW archetypes, because ninjas (and samurai) are specific to a sub region of Tian Xia. And they will do it because "its Asian". That's what archetypes do well, allow classes to cover more tropes.
If Paizo goes the archetype method of creating a new character class, like they did for Anti-Paladin, I predict it will be the monk. While it follows my ideas as presented in this thread - being more a monk than a rogue. The real reason I think the archetype will be based on a monk is from the two new feats offered in the APG: spider walk and cloud walk. Both use half distance of a monk's slow fall ability, and both seem very ninja in flavor. Spider Walk - walk up verticle walls and across ceilings. Cloud Walk - air walk for half the distance of your slow fall.
These two new feats sound very 'ninja' to me, and are linked to a monk's slow fall - which says monk is the archetype, all the way.
But Paizo could surprise me with something different.
GP
I disagree, the ninja counterpart is the rogue. It is a saboteur/spy based class. There is no need to try and shoe horn "mystic" in when its not. That is what PRC's are for.
As for the iaijutsu duel, That is the one fast drawl right? Killing with a single drawl? Pathfinder is not a great system for dueling as a whole and you may need a whole new sub system to cover it.
Possibly it could be feats, or part of the challenge or a new type of combat maneuver. Sounds like a feat chain, Or what if it replaced the charge?
Something like
Iaijtsu (Ex): At 11th level, a samurai learns to make devastating First strike. Double the threat range of any weapons wielded during a an Iaijtsu attack. This increase does not stack with other effects that increase the threat range of the weapon. In addition, the samuari can make a free bull rush, disarm, sunder, or trip combat maneuver if his attack is successful. This free combat maneuver does not provoke an attack of opportunity.
Maybe you could replace all of the charge with something like that. or feats or something.
I actually like the concept of Vital Strike + Max dmg when you win initiative on an Iajitsu strike. Combined with flat footed and Power Attack, you could get out some massive damage that still would not be broken. It's also a good reason why samurai use a two-handed weapon for those duels...they want the higher dmg die to be maxed out!
==Aelryinth
I just don't want base classes in Pathfinder to become what prestige classes were in D&D 3.X...something that they feel compelled to throw into every book to pad it out. And I also agree with those who have said that there should probably be ninja of lots of various classes. But the classical ninja (the one Paizo's audience is most familiar with, and more in line with the historic ninja) fits the rogue class like a glove of dexterity.+1
This is the point. Should vs. can it be done.
Yeah. I keep forgetting that Archetypes are what prestige classes were in 3.x. We should have Archetypes for everything! Maybe one of these days we'll get the Holy Crusader Archetype for fighter, that gives it spells and a holy companion/sword...
Seriously, I wasn't even all that chuffed about Archetypes. Some of the stuff in that chapter was just rather blah to me, and people are running around preaching it like it's gospel.
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Please, can someone explain this to me: We are playing in a fantasy game. A game where dragons exist, wizards actually cast spells, and a suitably high level alchemist really can turn lead into gold. Why do we have to make one particular cultural concept (which has many mythic roots) be tied to mundane history?
I actually like the concept of Vital Strike + Max dmg when you win initiative on an Iajitsu strike. Combined with flat footed and Power Attack, you could get out some massive damage that still would not be broken. It's also a good reason why samurai use a two-handed weapon for those duels...they want the higher dmg die to be maxed out!
==Aelryinth
I think I want to keep the Coup de Grace idea, but save that for a much higher/capstone power, in an Iaijutsu Duel.
Iaijutsu Stance: Quick Draw as a prerequisite and +3 BAB, on a successful Intimidate check cause maximum normal damage + applicable bonuses as a standard action.
Vital Strike + Iaijutsu Stance: if you meet prerequisites for Vital Strike and possess the Iaijutsu Stance feat, with a successful Intimidation check, cause maximum normal damage and vital strike double damage on a successful strike as a standard action.
Iaijutsu Mastery: iaijutsu stance, vital strike and +12 BAB (maybe +16 BAB or higher) as prerequisites, with a successful Intimidation check you can perform a Coup de Grace on your opponent in an iaijutsu duel as a standard action.
Perhaps grant some out of dueling combat benefits, but as a bonus to damage, or causes opponent to become flat-footed.
@Seeker - replacing the Cavalier's charge might be appropriate swap for this ability, as well as a bonus feat chain, I will look at both and see which seems more balanced. Don't know if I want a samurai to lose the Charge ability (even though Ride by Attack seems more Samurai than Charge, based on the lack of a lance in Japanese armament.)
GP
Just curious here, why would there be an Iaijutsu stance? Iaijutsu is the drawing of the sword in non-combat situations, from various positions.
I just don't get that.
The practice today as a martial art as far as Iaijutsu is in fact drawing a sword from various positions. However, originally in pre-Meiji Japan, most martial arts was intended to kill, not so much for defense or mental control.
Iaijutsu was originally the art of drawing a sword, making a strike from the draw and killing your opponent with a single blow - in a duel.
Iaijutsu was never intended for use in non-combat situations, at least not while Samurai were still dueling using this technique.
Martial arts today is represented by 'do' meaning mental skills training, such as kendo, judo, aikido. In pre-Meiji Era (before 1868) martial arts were killing arts and original forms of kenjutsu, jujutsu and aijutsu were their names and intentions. Philosophy in martial arts was still tied to this, however in today's martial arts, this is now the ONLY intention, and kill training has been minimized from its origins.
GP
I'm a 25 year veteran of Wado Ryu. Thanks for the lesson all the same.
My understanding from the masters was that Iaijutsu is the drawing of the sword, as we did it in the dojo, from the traditional sitting positions where the blade is worn differently than it is in battle.
And a parallel training is seen in better dojos and gongfu schools (I am posting from China) where some teachers are known to drill students on how to defend themselves and engage assailants from all kinds of relaxed positions, like sitting in a chair or standing with a bag in your hand or over your shoulder (with the bags and chairs even getting used as weapons).
So again, why would there be an Iaijutsu stance when in fact the whole art is based on drawing from rest 'stances'?
I'm a 25 year veteran of Wado Ryu. Thanks for the lesson all the same.
My understanding from the masters was that Iaijutsu is the drawing of the sword, as we did it in the dojo, from the traditional sitting positions where the blade is worn differently than it is in battle.
And a parallel training is seen in better dojos and gongfu schools (I am posting from China) where some teachers are known to drill students on how to defend themselves and engage assailants from all kinds of relaxed positions, like sitting in a chair or standing with a bag in your hand or over your shoulder (with the bags and chairs even getting used as weapons).
So again, why would there be an Iaijutsu stance when in fact the whole art is based on drawing from rest 'stances'?
Good point, just trying to find a terminology descriptor that fits Pathfinder abilities. Perhaps Iaijutsu 'stance' is the wrong word to describe this and I should find a better one. Really I want to get a basic iaijutsu function as an attack form for a game, so I don't need to duplicate true iaijutsu in all its forms (though it does sound interesting).
I was using 'stance' as the prepared positioning and frame of mind of the duelist prior to making an Iaijutsu Strike.
PF players don't need to learn the whole Iaijutsu art, as in the martial art, just a Japanese flavored martial art mechanic that borrows from true martial arts ideas.
Sorry, not previously recongizing your martial arts expertise, I gave you my brief background on the subject, and for the sake of others who do not know. Thanks for the clarification.
GP
...I was using 'stance' as the prepared positioning and frame of mind of the duelist prior to making an Iaijutsu Strike...
I really like the idea of having something 'Iaijutsu' up the tree from quick draw, I guess I just don't see a need for intermediaries between the draw and the strike... but then I don't have much of a mind for making rules.
Nevertheless... here's my take. It seems to me that it's not a tree someone would want to invest a lot of feats in because it is used so rarely. On the other hand, reality wise, it's such a surprise to have a aggressive attack from someone who was, half a second earlier, completely at rest... and it takes so much training to pull it off... that such a feat seems to be an excellent take on some cool real world stuff.
I can even see assassins using something like this. Like getting a lethal and unexpected shot out of a hidden weapon (maybe a dagger) from a rest stance.
And I don't mean to come in here and trumpet myself, I understand why you explained and it's all cool. Now that I read my post above I seem to me like kind of a dick, so no worries, dude: my apologies. How are you to know who is in here? It just so happens that there are actually a bunch of Paizonians who are martial arts fiends who will now and then pipe up about the game combat/reality combat connection... and we've got them from fencing through to European and Asian styles.
I see what you're thinking now.
The idea of the 'stance' is NOT meant as a step between Quick Draw and the strike, its a prepared state of the Samurai before the sword is drawn.
Quick Draw is a prerequisite skill necessary to perform the stance and maneuver. Quick draw does not occur before the stance.
I think this was your concern. Perhaps I didn't word my response in a way that you understood what I meant.
GP
I can even see assassins using something like this. Like getting a lethal and unexpected shot out of a hidden weapon (maybe a dagger) from a rest stance.
I like this idea for Ninja. When creating a new class or a new mechanic for a given class, trying to find a mechanic that does not steal from an existing class is always a goal (at least for me.)
For the ninja there is a need for some kind of special strike or assassination attempt. The obvious existing mechanics are Sneak Attack from the rogue and Death Attack from the Assassin. While both work and both have been used with Ninja in past iterations, I'd prefer to go a different way.
Using Iaijutsu as a surprise attack form, instead of dueling stance is a great idea. Whereas in my Samurai discussion of iaijutsu stance, using Intimidate as the skill to incite a strike was the key. Sticking with bluff/sense motive as its skill initiators, allowing a ninja to go from a non-combat posture to an immediate attack with Iaijutsu is a great way to do this - and not borrow Death Attack nor Sneak Attack.
In an Iaijutsu Duel, both samurai prepare the maneuver going into the stance. However in a Ninja's iaijutsu attack, the stance is hidden from the opponent in a bluff, so the opponent does not expect a strike at all. Though the intended strike is the same. Ultimately, performing the iaijutsu strike as a Coup de Grace is the goal for a ninja.
Its also a further way to divorce the ninja from the rogue...
Thanks for bringing that up, I will think some more on this, but it looks to be a good way to bring a special assassination strike without using other class's mechanics.
GP
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I would bet a good many people would be ok with the druid being reworked. When ya get down to it druids and clerics do not fit the game as written, wizards can be balanced by spells but those two are anomalies that really need fixed at somepoint, but we got stuck with em for now.
And that has nothing to do with the fact a Ninja is a rogue :) Or that a Samurai is a caviler. I find the raving ninja fanbois such as yourself the minority, your just loud is all.
There have been as many in this thread say Ninja is just a rogue as there have been asking for a new class. The difference only two of us keep posting while a few of you guys keep posting.
Although it seems gameprinting is doing more or less what ya want, more power to him but I really don't want to see Paizo make a class solely because "Its Asian" which is the driving point from your guys side to be honest.
No. It is what you are stuck on.
Your views are not mainstream.
You don't like clerics and druid, which have been staples for decades, but are fine with adding the new Cavalier class. So it isn't about class creep. It's about your personal roll playing world.
And that is wonderful. House rule to your hearts content.
But your views are not the consensus view. You don't even want an Asian themed area. You seem to want fighters, Thieves and Wizards.
And you can do that.
But don't tell the rest of us that your view is the correct and only view when we have all presented so much evidence that it is not. To steal an often used quote "You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts."
I can even see assassins using something like this. Like getting a lethal and unexpected shot out of a hidden weapon (maybe a dagger) from a rest stance.I like this idea for Ninja. When creating a new class or a new mechanic for a given class, trying to find a mechanic that does not steal from an existing class is always a goal (at least for me.)
For the ninja there is a need for some kind of special strike or assassination attempt. The obvious existing mechanics are Sneak Attack from the rogue and Death Attack from the Assassin. While both work and both have been used with Ninja in past iterations, I'd prefer to go a different way.
Using Iaijutsu as a surprise attack form, instead of dueling stance is a great idea. Whereas in my Samurai discussion of iaijutsu stance, using Intimidate as the skill to incite a strike was the key. Sticking with bluff/sense motive as its skill initiators, allowing a ninja to go from a non-combat posture to an immediate attack with Iaijutsu is a great way to do this - and not borrow Death Attack nor Sneak Attack.
In an Iaijutsu Duel, both samurai prepare the maneuver going into the stance. However in a Ninja's iaijutsu attack, the stance is hidden from the opponent in a bluff, so the opponent does not expect a strike at all. Though the intended strike is the same. Ultimately, performing the iaijutsu strike as a Coup de Grace is the goal for a ninja.
Its also a further way to divorce the ninja from the rogue...
Thanks for bringing that up, I will think some more on this, but it looks to be a good way to bring a special assassination strike without using other class's mechanics.
GP
two things come to mind for me.
One, when creating my ninja class I wanted to do something similar to sneak attack but different in flavor. I ended up with a class feature I called Deceptive Strike, which was a flat damage bonus on flatfooted/flanked opponents. It was less that average sneak attack damage, but it had the opportunity to be doubled during crits (as all flat damage bonuses are) and by spending Ki points. Thus my ninja could decide to do better than average sneak attack damage when he wanted it to count. It also allowed me to work Wisdom bonus into the calculation of deceptive strike, making wisdom more of an equal partner with strength in the weighting of stats at character gen.
The other thing that comes to mind is ninja combat is full of feints. I was thinking for a bard archetype, rather than using performance to grant morale bonuses to hit, ninja bards might use bluff to grant personal bonuses to hit and damage. But it would still use the same bardic performance mechanic.
As for ninja iaijutsu, partly I think that is covered by uncanny dodge, improved initiative, and quickdraw. Some higher level powers might let you jump to the top the of the initiative, or perhaps use you AoO as immediate counter strikes. Perhaps a limited form of detect thoughts comes into play, sensing a killing thought before it has time to be acted on.
Also blind fight. You may want to look at blind fight as a bonus feat as it not only lets you avoid loosing you dex bonus in the dark, but lets you move at full speed in the dark without bumping into stuff and falling over. Nobody likes clumsy ninjas. (well probably nobody but seeker ;^)
No. It is what you are stuck on.
Your views are not mainstream.
You don't like clerics and druid, which have been staples for decades, but are fine with adding the new Cavalier class. So it isn't about class creep. It's about your personal roll playing world.
And that is wonderful. House rule to your hearts content.
But your views are not the consensus view. You don't even want an Asian themed area. You seem to want fighters, Thieves and Wizards.
And you can do that.
But don't tell the rest of us that your view is the correct and only view when we have all presented so much evidence that it is not. To steal an often used quote "You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts."
I am fine with an Asian themed area, new feats, spells, monsters and even archetypes inspired from that area.
I am not fine with a new class being made solely with the "Its Asian so different" mindset. You want a new class just because "But its Asian" Not because you can't do it with the current class, not adding something interesting built solely upon "But its Asian:" which is just elitist nonsense.
I am fine with archetypes and am pretty sure that is the route paizo will go, but a new class based off a name or an outfit is not something I agree with.
You already have a core ninja class. Your obsession with Asian stuff having to be unique one of a kind items even if they do the very same thing keeps you from seeing that.
As you said your free to house rule super Asian ninja powers in as much as ya want with super Asian ninja class and super Asian ninja weapons.
But I have zero interest in seeing golarions Asian area's ruined by making them naruto d20. I want to see something cool, Asian inspired but not whole new different rule and classes for the sake of being different. A fighter from china and one from England are still both fighter, they have different background and gear but are both fighters.
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And to keep with the druid/cleric thread jack that has nothing to do with the topic
I never said to kill them off, I said
1: druid is more or less only a sub type of cleric
2: the druid and cleric classes are anomalies and need fixed. I don't add wizard to that list as they are and always have been easy to fix but the druid/cleric are at odds with how every other single class works. The are med BAB, full caster, use armor, good weapon option + other ablites. At dead odds with every other class.
But none of that has a single thing to do with a ninja archetype.
two things come to mind for me.One, when creating my ninja class I wanted to do something similar to sneak attack but different in flavor. I ended up with a class feature I called Deceptive Strike, which was a flat damage bonus on flatfooted/flanked opponents. It was less that average sneak attack damage, but it had...
Initiative matters if the assassination target is aware of the coming attack, then its all DEX bonus, plus improved initiative, plus possible modifiers (WIS bonus for some ninja ability).
I guess it still matters on a surprise round, as some classes (targets) might be able to act on a surprise round due to some ability, feat or spell. I'm wanting a Ninja's Iaijutsu Strike to be attempted to occur on a surprise round, so the Ninja gains a free attack, and then uses the max damage at lower levels and Coup de Grace at higher levels to do the attack. Of course failing to achieve surprise, failing your Feint check, losing out on initiative will make performing an iaijutstu assassination almost impossible. Then its time to escape...
GP
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But I have zero interest in seeing golarions Asian area's ruined by making them naruto d20. I want to see something cool, Asian inspired but not whole new different rule and classes for the sake of being different. A fighter from china and one from England are still both fighter, they have different background and gear but are both fighters....
No one is asking for an Anime world. And it is insulting the way you keep repeating over and over what everyone wants, when everyone on here has clearly explained to you the following.
1. The standardized ninja includes mystical abilities.
2. All past incarnations in prior versions of the game, have contained mystical abilities.
Some of us have provided examples of specific builds which are balanced, meet the description of the mystical ninja, and are not rogues. Some of us have gone so far as to say we don't believe ninjas should even have sneak attack. I personally posted an entire 20 level outline for comment.
You have failed to comment on outside ideas provided on here, other than to falling back on the same two core statements, one being your personal, and I would argue minority, opinion (ninja's are rogues) and the other being your statement of what you believe, I would argue inaccurately, others opinions are (we all want anime ninjas).
If you were to say you don't want another "Book of the 9 swords" I would agree with you. If you were to say I am concerned that if not created properly, this could lead to power creep, I would agree with you.
But your argument seems to be that the concept of a mystical ninja should never be considered because you don't personally like it. And because you don't personally like it, you have gone on every thread with the word ninja and been, frankly, rude and patronizing.
As I said before, I don't believe anyone doesn't understand your stance on this issue. You have every right to repeat it over and over again, I guess because you think doing so will convert others by attrition. But it doesn't contribute to the discussion when your only input is repetition, and only leads us all to tune you out in future discussions where you may have more original ideas and input.
Of course failing to achieve surprise, failing your Feint check, losing out on initiative will make performing an iaijutstu assassination almost impossible. Then its time to escape...
GP
nah, then its feint to lower their defense, blinding powder to the eyes, and go to town. IF, however, there is a contingent of samurai about to counter attack you, then its time to use poison on the target, throw down a smoke bomb, toss caltrops down in the smoke, THEN make your escape :D
Actually ciretose I have said I would be fine another archetype, as long as it is ONE archetype not a bunch of different ones all being called ninja. Just that the rogue fit the classic ninja best. What you guys are asking for except the off the wall not commonly assorted shape shifting is part of core or can be easily be done within the rogue class.
You guys keep saying over and over the same thing "Its Asian so MUST be different purely because it is Asian" The things your asking for can be done easily with PRC's or archetypes.
My stance is simple. There is zero need for a new class based off nothing the Ninja does is new. Everything your base ninja would have is already a part of a core class. Most are part of the Rogue class, people wanting it to be more like a monk keep cribbing off the monk so yeah nothing there new.
I even gave a vast list of ninja's in common media who do not have mystic powers. Sure in some comic a few ninja's display mystic powers but most of their fellow ninja's do not in fact have these powers. Just the big bads. This in game terms would be a PRC or a multi classed pc.
You can simply get what you want though core or a simple expansion or core classes. PRC's while I hate them as a whole the shapeshifting ninja type of thing is what they were meant to do.
The Asian stuff is vastly cool, but that is fluff not mechanics. An Asian cleric is a cleric, an Asian wizard is a wizard and so on. I am apposed to the elitism some of you guys have.
Sure Asian is different, but mechanically its the same as everyone else. If something is new it's PRC's new talents, new rage powers, new spells and feats but when ya get down to it mechanically they are still the same classes everyone else has.
Both sides are completely entrenched. I suggest you all walk away from this thread and wait to see what Paizo does, because you're not saying anything new and you're not going to change the other guy's opinion. That goes equally for both camps.
I'm just sick of seeing this thread at the top of the list with nothing but the same bickering in it.
Actually ciretose I have said I would be fine another archetype, as long as it is ONE archetype not a bunch of different ones all being called ninja. Just that the rogue fit the classic ninja best. What you guys are asking for except the off the wall not commonly assorted shape shifting is part of core or can be easily be done within the rogue class.
As it could be easily done with Bard, Monk, Ranger, even Sorcerer.
You guys keep saying over and over the same thing "Its Asian so MUST be different purely because it is Asian" The things your asking for can be done easily with PRC's or archetypes.
Or easily done with a balance built base class. Just because you don't want one, doesn't there should be a ninja class. Even if Paizo just archetypes it, as they did for Anti-Paladin, they've said they're making a Ninja class, so even they disagree with your premise.
My stance is simple. There is zero need for a new class based off nothing the Ninja does is new. Everything your base ninja would have is already a part of a core class. Most are part of the Rogue class, people wanting it to be more like a monk keep cribbing off the monk so yeah nothing there new.
Nothing the Ninja does is new, IF the ninja is based on rogue-like features. IF the ninja is based on more mystic features (as it has always been identified in 3x) or as non-US media portrays them, than rogue offers little to fit the idea.
I even gave a vast list of ninja's in common media who do not have mystic powers. Sure in some comic a few ninja's display mystic powers but most of their fellow ninja's do not in fact have these powers. Just the big bads. This in game terms would be a PRC or a multi classed pc.
Sorry, I never (or hardly ever) base my iconic perceptions on what Hollywood dictates - I don't see them as much of an authentic resource for anything really. All those movies you listed were Hollywood (made in the USA) creations. So some producer wants you to think a Ninja is a rogue, despite what the rest of the world considers it, so he MUST be right, huh?
The movies usually depict some Temple, where the American guy is allowed membership, goes through some trials and tribulations, defends the temples honor, blah, blah, blah.
Whereas, historically Ninja operated as entire hidden villages of blood-kin each trained in different skills of espionage. They were a varied lot so in the game could easily have been depicted as rogues, monks, sorcerers, even rangers, as well as alchemists - all part of the same secretive Ninja family. No single class fits this concept, so I'm looking at doing archetypes of several classes, all of which qualify as prerequisites for a more precise Ninja prestige class.
You can simply get what you want though core or a simple expansion or core classes. PRC's while I hate them as a whole the shapeshifting ninja type of thing is what they were meant to do.
The Asian stuff is vastly cool, but that is fluff not mechanics. An Asian cleric is a cleric, an Asian wizard is a wizard and so on. I am apposed to the elitism some of you guys have.
Sure Asian is different, but mechanically its the same as everyone else. If something is new it's PRC's new talents, new rage powers, new spells and feats but when ya get down to it mechanically they are still the same classes everyone else has.
And I can mostly agree with you, here. However Europe didn't feature whole villages dedicated to espionage, as a separate organization from the state. Magic in the west is historically limited to beliefs in Fey magic early on, then alchemy and the pseudo sciences. Yet the orient held a belief in Ki magic and other kinds of wizardry and sorcery, yet their feudal period didn't end until the 19th century. The belief in a mystical ninja is as old as western magic ideas, yet was sustained for a much longer time.
Ninja as a mystical black operative is much more imbedded into lore, than rogue based spies, as depicted by Hollywood.
Not every class needs an 'Asian' version, you're right in those ideas of fluff that fit the general base classes. Just some ideas, the ninja especially has no ideal standard counterpart. Ninja is really the only exception. (Not to you, we know, but it is to the rest of us.)
GP
I personally think it would be neat to have a magic or mystic skill monkey. Just like the magus uses magus to act as a tank (supposedly), I think it would be neat if there were a class that uses magic or other mystic arts to accomplish the same kind of skilldrudgery that a bard, monk, ranger, and especially the rogue does.
And the mystic skill-monkey needs a name, and ninja is a pretty good name for someone who fills that role.
I would like for this class to be versatile, have a wide range of abilities, and still fill in for the rogue in a pinch (traps, occasional bursts of massive damage, etc.).
As it could be easily done with Bard, Monk, Ranger, even Sorcerer.
Sure but ninja gets 1, not4 or 5. Of all the classes that could be ninja's Rogue matches the best. Possibly monk or bard if ya want a caster, but there should not be 12 ninja archetypes, you get the same amount a swashbuckler got.
Or easily done with a balance built base class. Just because you don't want one, doesn't there should be a ninja class. Even if Paizo just archetypes it, as they did for Anti-Paladin, they've said they're making a Ninja class, so even they disagree with your premise.
Actually no, it has been said a few times by more then one staff member they are fine with 18 base classes and new stuff would be archetypes. If they even went as far as a subtype that is to far. A class for the sake of a name and rabid fanbois who think Asian must be better and more different then anything else. Even if it does the very same thing.
I am fine with a ninja archetype, I however am not fine with a new class made up when core classes already are in the game that do the very same thing as the "new class" purely because "but its Asian"
Nothing the Ninja does is new, IF the ninja is based on rogue-like features. IF the ninja is based on more mystic features (as it has always been identified in 3x) or as non-US media portrays them, than rogue offers little to fit the idea.
Us media like it or not has indeed colored the public at large as to what a ninja is. The rogue class dos indeed match this idea and it's class mechanics allow even your "mystic powers" as you can take spell like ability. New talents built around that idea expand it.
Sorry, I never (or hardly ever) base my iconic perceptions on what Hollywood dictates - I don't see them as much of an authentic resource for anything really. All those movies you listed were Hollywood (made in the USA) creations. So some producer wants you to think a Ninja is a rogue, despite what the rest of the world considers it, so he MUST be right, huh?
I hate to tell you but the folks who buy most RPG's and who you hope to buy those RPG's are English speakers for the most part and have been influenced by those very sources you ignore.
The avage person may know what a ninja is, but his ninja is not a spell caster or a shape shifter. It has been influenced by the media you ignore as "Not right" It has not been shaped by legend or myth not known to many people. it has not been shaped by living in japan or having that knowledge.
Most people know what a ninja is, very few of them know what your talking about outside of people who study old myth, watch anima or live in japan.
What your talking about is simply not how most people perceive a ninja at all.
So you ninja had a clan, so did the Scottish. So your clan had a way of life. So did a great many cultures. Your talking pure fluff and tying new mechanics that do the very same thing to that fluff just because "well its a ninja"
A name and set of cloths is not justification for a whole new class. It just isn't. In the end that is what a ninja is to a vast Marjory of people. A skilled killer in the ninja outfit.
Sure but ninja gets 1, not4 or 5. Of all the classes that could be ninja's Rogue matches the best. Possibly monk or bard if ya want a caster, but there should not be 12 ninja archetypes, you get the same amount a swashbuckler got.
You've brought up the 'swashbuckler' rogue several times. I think the better example is the 'detective' in the APG... Rogue got Investigator, Bard got Detective, and arguably you could add Urban Ranger and Urban Druid as a similar archetype. Here's four classes that can build a CSI - Greyhawk, all using a similar archetype.
Why can't four classes depict a village of ninja operatives. My army experiences tells me Special Forces contain six or seven different job titles for specialized tasks that all fit covert ops. I see the ninja the same way.
Actually no, it has been said a few times by more then one staff member they are fine with 18 base classes and new stuff would be archetypes. If they even went as far as a subtype that is to far. A class for the sake of a name and rabid fanbois who think Asian must be better and more different then anything else. Even if it does the very same thing.
I am fine with a ninja archetype, I however am not fine with a new class made up when core classes already are in the game that do the very same thing as the "new class" purely because "but its Asian"
I just find it sad that if someone disagrees with your point of view, the only possible reason is 'Asian fanbois' - that's a very limited point of view. Even though many of us gave you legitimate reasons for our point of view. I won't disagree there's some 'fanboi' responders. But not all of fall under that category. Though one commonality is that we all universally disagree with you.
Us media like it or not has indeed colored the public at large as to what a ninja is. The rogue class dos indeed match this idea and it's class mechanics allow even your "mystic powers" as you can take spell like ability. New talents built around that idea expand it.
And while that's perfectly acceptable, it doesn't mean it should dictate what is a Ninja, nor should publishers just follow in Hollywood's skewed ideology. We don't have to follow Hollywood on anything. It should not have to influence our development.
GP
Student: Master, what is "Ninja"? A class? An archetype? Is it merely a rogue?
Master: "Ninja" exists only in the mind. There are the ten-thousand ninja, for each person sees ninja as a reflection of themselves!
Student: Why then do people fight about the true Ninja?
Master: Each person desires their ninja to be the true ninja -- in this way they will not have to acknowledge that there is no-ninja. There is no-mind.
Us media like it or not has indeed colored the public at large as to what a ninja is. The rogue class dos indeed match this idea and it's class mechanics allow even your "mystic powers" as you can take spell like ability. New talents built around that idea expand it.
US media also shows rpg players (my mind went blank on the english term right now) as loners, freaks, morbidly obese, smelly, without any trace of socials skills, deluded and psichopats just waiting to happen... So, yeah, not the best termometer is it? None of the rpg players I know are like that.
I am fine with a ninja archetype, I however am not fine with a new class made up when core classes already are in the game that do the very same thing as the "new class" purely because "but its Asian"
Dead horse there, as a dozen people have tried to point out it's not "because it's asian", it's because "it's different from a rogue, by a number of reasons". You are just unwilling to listen to any other explanation besides the strawman that you made.
I hate to tell you but the folks who buy most RPG's and who you hope to buy those RPG's are English speakers for the most part and have been influenced by those very sources you ignore.
Boa noite, meu apelido neste forum é VM e eu sou brasileiro.
Pathfinder made a pretty good selling here in Brasil in the last con. And it wasn't translated. Turns out a lot of RPG players here are educated and inteligent and fluent in english. We also like anime very much, thank you. E$nough that any anime con in here has a space for RPG tables. And RPG cons have cosplayer contests.The avage person may know what a ninja is, but his ninja is not a spell caster or a shape shifter. It has been influenced by the media you ignore as "Not right" It has not been shaped by legend or myth not known to many people. it has not been shaped by living in japan or having that knowledge.
The average person also doesn't play RPG, so there is that. Most gamers are geeks. Sorry to tell you that. We are a SUB-culture. Some of us like sci-fi series. Some like fantasy books. Some like anime. Or cartoons. Most like films, of various kinds. And many play videogames. Many are youtube users, or deviantart users, or fanfiction readers. Some have been to tvtropes or gamefaqs or newgrounds or even imageboards. We are a wild and varied bunch of smart and knowleadgeable people, so please don't think that any concept or idea that the common peasant and drone have is the same as us.
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Student: Master, what is "Ninja"? A class? An archetype? Is it merely a rogue?
Master: "Ninja" exists only in the mind. There are the ten-thousand ninja, for each person sees ninja as a reflection of themselves!
Student: Why then do people fight about the true Ninja?
Master: Each person desires their ninja to be the true ninja -- in this way they will not have to acknowledge that there is no-ninja. There is no-mind.
*claps with one hand*
Jeremy Puckett
Please, can someone explain this to me: We are playing in a fantasy game. A game where dragons exist, wizards actually cast spells, and a suitably high level alchemist really can turn lead into gold. Why do we have to make one particular cultural concept (which has many mythic roots) be tied to mundane history?
Since I hadn't gotten an actual response to this question, I figured I'd just reiterate it in case I could maybe this time.
Please, can someone explain this to me: We are playing in a fantasy game. A game where dragons exist, wizards actually cast spells, and a suitably high level alchemist really can turn lead into gold. Why do we have to make one particular cultural concept (which has many mythic roots) be tied to mundane history?Since I hadn't gotten an actual response to this question, I figured I'd just reiterate it in case I could maybe this time.
I will approach this one sorta. because I have been thinking about this a bit. While ninjas in legend and media do have fantastic powers, those powers tend to be rooted in a kind of extraordinary use of some skill. For example, a ninja is does not necessarily turn invisible like a Predator alien, rather they use their stealth skill with near supernatural prowess, hiding in unorthodox places. In a movie or comic, the ninja's hiding place is often revealed to the viewer at the last second for dramatic effect, like a heist movie.
That said, there is a tradition in asian myths and legend of people being "SO GOOD" at something that their skill becomes quasi-magical. The monk is the preeminent example of this trope. He starts with some extraordinary abilities, but by 4th level he starts to get some supernatural abilities. In a game where physics starts to breakdown for characters higher than 5th level (thus there being a place for E6 variant level progression), that seems to in keeping with game.
There is a danger with any version of the ninja that use of high magic hurts the ninja tropes. What ninja needs a high stealth rating if he can rely on invisbility?
I think there's a real fear that some people's idea of the Ninja is so ove-the-top, based on manga presentation of them - calling on elemental powers, shape-shifting, casting their own brand of magic, are consumate sword/weapon masters, can run up bamboo shoots that can't support their weight, can turn invisible, teleport, split into two beings, can out-rogue a rogue. Which if that was a character class, would be broken, broken, broken.
No one class should outshine every other class - and a ninja that fit all the above tropes would not belong in a D&D game, unless that was the only available player class.
While there is some disparity between class abilities, such as casters vs. martial types, PF tries to offer balance by giving martials a bit more, and casters not so much. By allowing a stealth type operator to function as a fighter, rogue, monk and spellcaster without multiclassing - well that's just too much - or belongs in some other over-the-top Naruto game, and not Pathfinder.
If a ninja base class, archetype or prestige class is created it has to have some level of balance with the other existing classes. A ninja can't have all these abilities, it will require careful selections to come up with the best ninja abilities and still be balanced.
For a book, movie, or animated film a ninja can do anything, but in a game it has to play fairly with the other classes - so you have to draw the line in what a ninja can do, somewhere.
I don't think a manga inspired ninja belongs in D&D or Pathfinder, its just too much.
GP
Someone remind me which book is the Ninja supposed to be in again?
Ultimate Ninja, of course.
Someone remind me which book is the Ninja supposed to be in again?
I don't think Paizo has said. They simply announced they were planning to make Ninja a class. Probably Ultimate Combat, but your guess is as good as mine.
GP
I don't think Paizo has said. They simply announced they were planning to make Ninja a class. Probably Ultimate Combat, but your guess is as good as mine.
I haven't seen any such announcement myself. Maybe the person who saw it can post back, but I never even heard of such an announcement.
I think this thread was spawned by the announcement of the World Guide: Tian Xia (in the thread title), which is the east-asian analog of Golarion. So of course, there will be ninja and samurai, because all asian mythology has been crawling with those two class types for millennia. Right? Right?
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Someone remind me which book is the Ninja supposed to be in again?I don't think Paizo has said. They simply announced they were planning to make Ninja a class. Probably Ultimate Combat, but your guess is as good as mine.
In point of fact, I believe that their last official statement was that they didn't know what they were doing with "ninja" yet, but that they would probably not be a base class. My argumentation throughout the various ninja threads has not been an attempt to sway Paizo--as far as I know, they're not planning on making a separate ninja base class--but against the various fans who seem to think a concept as narratively and culturally limited as the ninja deserves its own base class.
If Paizo came out and said firmly and officially one way or the other, I think it would end a lot of threads like these where people (including myself at times) get way too heated. I can only speak for myself here, but if Paizo said "We're making a ninja base class and there's nothing you can say to change our minds!"... well, I'd be disappointed. I probably wouldn't buy the book that base class was in. But I wouldn't waste my time fighting about it anymore. Once there's official word, one way or the other, that tends to be "it" for me; until then, I'm mostly arguing against the tide of fans who think a certain thing should be, not the publishers.
Jeremy Puckett
a ninja thread that gets too heated? preposterous!
Heathansson wrote:
Re: ninja in Tian Xia;
what's Paizo's official position; are they going to do one, or are they dead set against it thinking a rogue is a ninja?
Then I promise I'll shut up about it; prolly in a day or two, but I'll shut up about it, I vow it.
James Jacobs wrote:
Ninjas are very much a part of Tian Xia. We're not yet quite ready to reveal what that actually means in game rules, though.
I don't think Paizo has said. They simply announced they were planning to make Ninja a class. Probably Ultimate Combat, but your guess is as good as mine.I haven't seen any such announcement myself. Maybe the person who saw it can post back, but I never even heard of such an announcement.
I think this thread was spawned by the announcement of the World Guide: Tian Xia (in the thread title), which is the east-asian analog of Golarion. So of course, there will be ninja and samurai, because all asian mythology has been crawling with those two class types for millennia. Right? Right?
A little less than a millennium I think. Chinese archetypes go back a wee bit further though.
While there has been a long history of a warrior class in Japanese history - over 1700 years, the concept of samurai didn't really come about until 1100, and came to a rise after the Genpei War 1180-1185.
While stealthy monks may have been around since the Nara Period about 800 AD, the better known ninja appear to be more common during the Sengoku Period 1350 - 1450
While Chinese analogs may be existed earlier, both samurai and ninja are from a tiny corner of an East Asian world. Tian Xia is a much larger place.
Kaidan on the other hand is completely and only a Japan inspired empire on an archipelago far out to sea - easily dropped into any campaign setting including Golarian. There is only a Japan based culture, imperial system, religion and folklore - with only common oriental lore as might have existed in Japan, and other cultures earlier in its history.
There's samurai and ninja crawling all over Kaidan, that's for sure.
GP
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While stealthy monks may have been around since the Nara Period about 800 AD, the better known ninja appear to be more common during the Sengoku Period 1350 - 1450
Fool. Don't you know that ninjas are older than time? The first ninja created the universe. You might think it was some old bearded Jewish guy named Yahweh, some Arabic dude name Allah, or something similar; but that's ridiculous. I'll prove it.
1. Ninjas are Asian.
2. Yahweh is Jewish.
3. It's Asian, so it's better.
Therefore, thusly, and in conclusion; ninjas created the universe and everything in it. They made non-ninjas for the sole purpose of having something to chop in half.
While stealthy monks may have been around since the Nara Period about 800 AD, the better known ninja appear to be more common during the Sengoku Period 1350 - 1450Fool. Don't you know that ninjas are older than time? The first ninja created the universe. You might think it was some old bearded Jewish guy named Yahweh, some Arabic dude name Allah, or something similar; but that's ridiculous. I'll prove it.
1. Ninjas are Asian.
2. Yahweh is Jewish.
3. It's Asian, so it's better.Therefore, thusly, and in conclusion; ninjas created the universe and everything in it. They made non-ninjas for the sole purpose of having something to chop in half.
And that's what I call Real Ultimste Power!!!