Your free to do what you like for your setting, but for general use a Ninja really is just a rogue, we are not talking about just your setting but the Ninja's of Tian Xia and how the rule set should represent them.
If swashbuckler is just a rogue archetype I stand behind what I said and say the Ninja is nothing more then that as well. The class simply hits all the common tropes of what a ninja is mechanically.
There is simply no need for a new class when one already does the very same thing.
I agree, and sincerely hope the Tian Xia ninja, or any other class looks NOT anything like Kaidan - I hope they are different enough that players and GMs can have options to play their game the way it fits best. My version or Paizo.
One of my primary goals in creating Kaidan is to concentrate on feudal Japan only, I don't want Kaidan to represent the whole of East Asia, just one island 'kingdom' and culture. Too many past editions of D&D orient is trying to fit a hundred different cultures into one setting, but relying on too much Japanese tropes and too little any other cultural tropes. You end up with a 'half-assed' Japanese setting, and a mostly 'no-assed' any other oriental culture.
I want a Japanese setting, that's a 'full assed' setting! :P
GP
Your free to do what you like for your setting, but for general use a Ninja really is just a rogue, we are not talking about just your setting but the Ninja's of Tian Xia and how the rule set should represent them.
If swashbuckler is just a rogue archetype I stand behind what I said and say the Ninja is nothing more then that as well. The class simply hits all the common tropes of what a ninja is mechanically.
There is simply no need for a new class when one already does the very same thing.
Okay then, all this aside. When the new ninja class comes out you can do your modified rogue thing and we'll use the new class. There is no reason to argue, we all have our own views on how things should be done and we get nowhere by repeating ourselves over and over. If you want a ninja class just say "I would enjoy a new ninja class" if you want the more historical ninja thing, say "That new material just isn't my cup of tea, I'll stick with a rogue archetype" it's that simple.
Just because there is no real NEED for them doesn't mean that they shouldn't be printed. You dont NEED to play role playing games, you don't NEED to post messages on the message-boards. But you do anyway, why? because you enjoy it, and why shouldn't you? Paizo will release new material, buy it or dont buy it. Just dont complain.
I'm still just trying to figure out why we should be adhering to a Westerner's opinion of a ninja's real life historical abilities when considering the abilities of an Eastern concept in a fantastical setting.
Historically, a wizard couldn't cast spells. He threw some junk around and maybe understood how to do some simple sleight of hand before being burned at the stake. So why do we accept that in Pathfinder a wizard should be able to do the legendary things that myths like to claim he could do?
Historically, a ninja would use sleight of hand and obfuscation to seem like a wraith in the night, with strange weapons built out of necessity and a penchant for assassination. But the fantastical framework of the ninja is a person with an intense connection to their ki, who could literally turn invisible, walk on walls, teleport, leap tall buildings in a single bound, or even transform into monsters or command the shadows to kill. Looking at the actual myths, both modern and historical, in Japan tells me that the ninja isn't just some guy in funny clothes - he's got special, mystical powers. A sufficiently well trained ninja is a terrifyingly unstoppable force. So why are we supposed to accept that in Pathfinder he shouldn't be able to do the legendary things that myths like to claim he could do?
There's a very severe dichotomy here. I'm not saying that the Ninja class should be this incredibly uber class that can do everything that a fighter/rogue/wizard can do all at once from level one. But I am saying that they should be able to do many things tied to the myths and legends about them, and that those are not things that the rogue can do. To suitably capture the fantastical Asian feel of the ninja, you can't just wave your hands and say "it's a rogue" when the rogue is certainly much more tied to various "historical" precedents, in no small part because the society from whence its inspiration hails didn't really ascribe much in the way of magical abilities to it.
Okay then, all this aside. When the new ninja class comes out you can do your modified rogue thing and we'll use the new class.
Just because there is no real NEED for them doesn't mean that they shouldn't be printed.
I disagree, you should never print something for the sake of "its Asian and better" Honestly that is all some of y'all keep saying. I got no issue with having a ninja, I do have issue with making a new class based on "It's a ninja, its got it's own outfit"
No one has yet to show why other then "its a ninja" it should be it's own class. A class should be based on more then a name and an outfit. Everything everyone has posted already can be done with the current classes.
Even game printer has admitted the ninja is not really a class, I think the rogue works best as he does everything a ninja does. I have yet to see a single reason to make a new class, the classes already made already fill every single role and mechanical nitch a ninja class would.
Swashbuckler is as wide a trope as ninja yet it got a single rogue archetype, I fail to see why ninja who are just rogues with Asian weapons in a black outfit should gain more.
Okay then, all this aside. When the new ninja class comes out you can do your modified rogue thing and we'll use the new class.
Just because there is no real NEED for them doesn't mean that they shouldn't be printed.
I disagree, you should never print something for the sake of "its Asian and better" Honestly that is all some of y'all keep saying. I got no issue with having a ninja, I do have issue with making a new class based on "It's a ninja, its got it's own outfit"
No one has yet to show why other then "its a ninja" it should be it's own class. A class should be based on more then a name and an outfit. Everything everyone has posted already can be done with the current classes.
Even game printer has admitted the ninja is not really a class, I think the rogue works best as he does everything a ninja does. I have yet to see a single reason to make a new class, the classes already made already fill every single role and mechanical nitch a ninja class would.
Swashbuckler is as wide a trope as ninja yet it got a single rogue archetype, I fail to see why ninja who are just rogues with Asian weapons in a black outfit should gain more.
You seem to have a selective reading problem, I never said or suggested that ninja is not class. Read the entire post, and the subsequent ones, when I recognized that you missed the point I reiterated more concisely.
GP
No one has yet to show why other then "its a ninja" it should be it's own class. A class should be based on more then a name and an outfit. Everything everyone has posted already can be done with the current classes
And the paladin could be done with fighters and clerics multiclassing.
Just because in 15 levels you could do what a mythical ninja can do in general doesn't mean that it shouldn't maybe have a base class so that you don't have to be some horrible amalgamation and wait half your adventuring career just to be able to do what the concept is based around.
Most of us, aside from you, seeker, are emphatically NOT saying that a ninja needs its own class "because it's Asian and better." What we're saying is that a mythical ninja is Asian and different.
We're not discussing historical fact here. We're discussing fantastical concepts for a fantastical game. Just as a fantastical holy knight isn't just a fighter archetype, a fantastical ninja isn't just a rogue archetype. We should be looking at the actual popular myths of the region that this comes from when deciding what the class could theoretically do.
Most of us, aside from you, seeker, are emphatically NOT saying that a ninja needs its own class "because it's Asian and better." What we're saying is that a mythical ninja is Asian and different.
And there it is, they are not different, they are simply Asian. There is no reason to make a new class that does the very same thing but different because its Asian. An Asian fighter is still a fighter, an Asian long sword is a long sword, a katana is a bastard sword and a ninja is a rogue.
When you say its Asian and needs a new class because it's Asian you are saying its Asian and there for better.
Because its Asian is not a reason for a new class when the old one does the very same thing.
How does a rogue shapeshift? How does a rogue summon monsters? How does a rogue leap tall buildings in a single bound? How does a rogue walk through walls?
The Red Mantis PrC may be the greatest mystical assassins in the inner sea region, but they don't even operate in Tian Xia. Nor can they do the things that myths ascribe to the Ninja. I am not saying that they are better. Different does not equal better. Mystical does not equal better. Different, in this case, does equal mystical however. Continuing to ignore actual, legitimate arguments and insisting on sticking to the historical record of the real life ninja is a fallacy in a game where knights ordained by the church actually can smite devils with holy powers rather than simply relying on all their fighter-only feats.
The ninja is to the rogue what the paladin/ranger is to the fighter/barbarian. In effect, the ninja is a mystical rogue concept, perhaps in some ways more akin to a bard without the music, or with spell-like and supernatural abilities rather than mundane skills. They are balanced with the rogue throughout all levels of the game, rather than either being horrendously broken at level one or requiring four different classes and 12 levels to finally come in to their own.
Honestly, the continued insistence to ascribe meanings other than what I'm actually saying to my posts is phenomenally frustrating, which I'm sure is part of the point.
A ninja shape shifts like everyone else, he takes levels in druid or a PRC. Shapeshifting is Not a common ninja trope.
And No the red mantis are the best in the world, not the best in the inner sea, they are simply the best Assassins the world has ever seen. I used them as a point, Ninja's are weaker then they are mystic wise, and if ya want a mystic Ninja a PRC is the way to go.
You have yet to show a single argument other then "But its Asian" which is not a argument at all. You have failed to show any common ninja ability not already part of a class, you have failed to show anything other then "It Asian and better" You dig up wild random powers No one associates with Ninja and are not common themes of the ninja.
You said "Its Asian and different so needs a new class" There is no need for me to ascribe anything to that, it is clear you think because its Asian is enough a reason to make a class that already exists into something different that does the same thing because "Its Asian"
You can't come up with a single reason it needs a new class to do the very same thing other then "Its Asian"
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Your free to do what you like for your setting, but for general use a Ninja really is just a rogue, we are not talking about just your setting but the Ninja's of Tian Xia and how the rule set should represent them.
If swashbuckler is just a rogue archetype I stand behind what I said and say the Ninja is nothing more then that as well. The class simply hits all the common tropes of what a ninja is mechanically.
There is simply no need for a new class when one already does the very same thing.
You keep going around in circles here. You don't believe a ninja needs mystical abilities. Others of us (and wikipedia) do.
Many of us don't even think Ninja's should have sneak attack, so the rogue model doesn't work on even the most basic level. But you keep stating it over and over like it is established doctrine.
Nearly every version of DnD has had a ninja class, sometimes multiple versions. It's happening. So working to help improve it is more productive than repeating over and over "It's a rogue."
Seriously, I am tempted to do a count of how many times you have said the same thing in this and other threads. We get it, we just don't agree.
I removed a couple posts. I suggest everyone take a deep breath, step back, and decide if what you're about to post really needs to be said.
Really. There comes a point where you must either agree to disagree or simply realize the other side is not going to be convinced and walk away.
And I get you don't want a Ninja, you want something better, something over the top and different solely because it uses the name ninja.
The items you keep bringing up are not ability commonly assorted with ninja's at all. Only you and those that want something better as its Asian even bring them up.
And yes its Asian and must be different is the very same thing as its Asian and there for better mentality.
There are myths of alot of things,but how many people do you think say "Oh yeah ninja are spell caster and shape shifter"
It simply is not a trope people associate with ninja's at all. Kill you silently and with great stealth yes, shapshifter, no.
I'm starting to like Smilodan's earlier suggestion in this thread for utitlizing kuji-kiri (finger motion, hand sign technique) to form a limited list of ninja spells. Perhaps up to 9th level spells possible as only somantic and material component, no verbal, and a few new spells to specifically duplicate some ninja lore in spell form, not currently available in the spell lists.
Then create archetypes for each base class that thematically defines a ninja ideal, kind of like how 'detective' and 'urban' versions were created in the APG. I think borrowing ideas from Zen Archer Monk, Mobile Fighter, Urban Ranger are going in the right direction, but it might be better to create more specific 'shinobi' subclasses to each appropriate base class.
Appropriate classes with shinobi archetypes could include: bard, fighter, monk, ranger, rogue and sorcerer.
I'd swap kuji-kiri with divine casting for Rangers as well.
I stil want to make a prestige class ninja available that combines some of these desparate abilities to a degree. Using one or both Kuji-kiri and Ki powers, Sneak Attack progression, alchemical/poison training, ninja weapon /martial arts mastery. The base class shinobi all qualify for taking the ninja prestige class.
I'm not sold on Wildshape for ninja, though I suppose you could always 'shinobify' a druid.
This way people can best meet their own expectations of the ninja class, with varying optional powers as wide as six different base classes, with specific mechanics/fluff that fits a ninja. Finally the prestige class can amalgamate some of these desparate powers into a single class idea.
This would open up more variety, accomodate varying tastes and make ninja missions with whole adventuring parties more possible than solo ninja missions as the norm.
Thoughts?
GP
This took quiet a while to read ...
Anyway ... seekerofshadowlight, 90% of your posts got Asian and ninja in them and how you think everyone wants them to be bestest (yea new word) class ever. That leads me to this question, and please don't take it personally - do you have anything against Asians ?
No offence meant, just something i found showing up consistently in almost every of your posts.
Now 2nd big part of this discussion is. History vs Fantasy. This is FRP - Fantasy Roleplaying Game - you don't see Paladins having just very loyal mundane horse ... thats somewhat a niche for a Cavalier, but thats too much off topic now.
All of the classes in APG showing off new mechanics - same could be with Ninja - a new mechanic. As for niche's filled, etc. read on.
Witch still got spells, yea, they changed bloodline to something else, but i am pretty sure she would be screwed without spells - arcane spellcaster niche that already exists.
Summoner got Eidolon (which is out of imbalance overpowered - but again too much off topic), who is practically acting like an arcane party buffer - when i read it, it strike me as a bard with a seriously mean pet.
And lets not forget Magus, aka new Eldritch Knight on the block.
So your argument about specific niche that ninja should fill is already filled with rogue, fails - cause people like variety.
Now could a Ninja be represented as a Rogue ? Yes, it certainly could, same as Witch could of been a variety of sorcerer with a new bloodline, same as Summoner could of been represented as a new school of magic - something gnomes brought with them or ancient magic from somewhere in Golarion itself, etc.
Would it be good if Ninja got its own class ? From your perspective - no, and i understand, that you don't want in every splat book tons of new classes and stuff like that, that will lead to unbalanced game.
But do you know why rest wants? CAUSE ITS A NINJA! YAY! hehe ... now seriously, rest want it as a class cause it would be easier to get a ninja with his mystical powers of walking on water, high jumps, etc. than multiclassing monk and rogue, adding tons of talents and ki powers to them to represent a ninja. When you try to combine two classes efficiently to get something new and exciting thats when game starts breaking down - with feats like Esoteric Rogue (i think i got it right, didn't open 3.5 from when PF came out)
Now with that covered, my personal opinion ? I don't think neither does a justice - archetype could prove too limiting, class itself could prove too close to Rogue. What i think Ninja will be is Alternate Class - what Anti-Paladin is to Paladin.
How ? Well somewhat simple, Ninja will be made Lawful Any, something most Rogue's aren't in fantasy(And yes, Robin Hood is a ranger3/rogue X so he does not count).My personal view of what Ninja should be is like an Assassin PrC (just class of course), only not limited to evil, but limited to Lawful, and no its not taking away anything from assassin. You don't believe me ? Go read it. Okay, presuming you did read - how many enemies will bother raising their comrades ? Now, how many will bother with true res? Assassin PrC is NPC PrC when your PC's piss you off, nothing more nothing less, so its not taking away anything from the Assassin. As for Red Mantis Assassin - its still requires you to be evil, and does not require you to be Lawful (to my knowledge) so there is still room for it as well, especially how it gives free Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec, Mantis Form, etc - and lets try again, its PrC not a class, a very powerful PrC indeed may i add.
I disagree, you should never print something for the sake of "its Asian and better" Honestly that is all some of y'all keep saying. I got no issue with having a ninja, I do have issue with making a new class based on "It's a ninja, its got it's own outfit"
Okay then, all this aside. When the new ninja class comes out you can do your modified rogue thing and we'll use the new class.
Just because there is no real NEED for them doesn't mean that they shouldn't be printed.
Sigh...honestly the more and more I read the more I think you're just a troll, seeking out conflict simply because you have nothing better to do.
Bottom line: like it or not the new ninja class in coming out, neither you nor I, or pretty much everyone else, with the exception of a small few can directly influence what will become the new class so stop the petty bickering and just walk away.
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And I get you don't want a Ninja, you want something better, something over the top and different solely because it uses the name ninja.
The items you keep bringing up are not ability commonly assorted with ninja's at all. Only you and those that want something better as its Asian even bring them up.
And yes its Asian and must be different is the very same thing as its Asian and there for better mentality.
I posted my Ninja, tell me where it is unbalanced.
This took quiet a while to read ...
Anyway ... seekerofshadowlight, 90% of your posts got Asian and ninja in them and how you think everyone wants them to be bestest (yea new word) class ever. That leads me to this question, and please don't take it personally - do you have anything against Asians ?
No offence meant, just something i found showing up consistently in almost every of your posts.
Nope I don't have an issue with Asian's or Asian culture. What I do have an issue with is the "Its Asian so MUST be different" attitude.
The core classes can represent every culture ever..except anything Asian, which must then have it's own classes with do the very same thing as the core class but in a different more "Asian" way
This is what I have issue with, the Ninja is no more mystic then any other class, but people want it to be more mystic and different solely because "its Asian"
People in this thread wanting it to be a new class have used the very words "But its Asian so need to be different"
I am all for new ninja talents and feats, new Asian spells and feats and PRC's that explore the mystic Asian myths, along with Asian monster. What I can not and will not except is we need a new class for the ninja "because its Asian and needs to be different."
No one can show me a reason why ninja's need a new class other then "its a ninja"the common tropes of a ninja are not spell casting, they are not shape shifting and they are not "mystic ninja powers"
And here's where your fundamental point falls completely apart.You assume that "seekerofshadowlight" and "everyone" are equivalent. That because YOU do not make that association, NO ONE does. Or perhaps just that YOUR view can be the only correct one, and that people who don't follow it are clearly wrong and thus not worth considering as part of "everyone."
I tell ya what, ask 20 random people on the street "what is a ninja". Not your gaming buddies , not people who think like you do, random people you do not really know, people who do not share the same background and see just how many say "a spell caster and shape shifter" If most of them say that it is a commonly excepted ninja trope, if most do not say that then it is not a common trope.
People simply do not think spell caster and shape shifter when you say Ninja
There are myths of alot of things,but how many people do you think say "Oh yeah ninja are spell caster and shape shifter"
It simply is not a trope people associate with ninja's at all. Kill you silently and with great stealth yes, shapshifter, no.
No. It's not a trope you associate with the ninja. It is a trope that the Japanese associate with the ninja. I think they're the foremost authority on it.
It's also a trope acknowledged on the wikipedia, and it's therefore fact. It's also in video games, both produced in the US and in Japan.
I'm not saying every ninja shapeshifts. I recall suggesting that the ninja class have orders, like a Cavalier's or an Oracle's mysteries, that gives special abilities appropriate to the "school" or "fighting style" and that one of these "jutsu" could be a shapechanging one. Just like one could be teleportation, or shadow manipulation, or any of a myriad of other options.
For the last time tonight, we're not saying that they are Asian and therefore better. We're saying that they're different. If you think that different than rogue = better, than the fighter is better than the rogue, and so is the bard, and so is the barbarian, and so is every other class ever. Even the healer.
There's a total of five classes that Pathfinder has published that are variants of "I hit things with a sword real good." One of them hangs out in woods, one of them is a stick in the mud, one of them rages, one of them rides a special pony, and one of them has a bunch of feats. Somehow, these all are justified as separate classes in your eyes.
There's a total of eight super casting classes in Pathfinder. One of them turns into animals, one of them channels energy, one of them has a really big Pokemon, one of them stares at you funny, one of them reads books, one of them doesn't predict the future, one of them is really concerned with their family tree, and one of them drinks funky liquids. Somehow, these are all justified as separate classes.
There's a total of two (maybe three) "skill monkey" classes that Pathfinder has published. One of them sings songs and casts spells, (maybe one of them punches you,) and the other stabs people while flanking. Apparently, this is the be-all and end-all of skill mastery in your eyes. I disagree.
The rogue is a very flexible class. It's a very good class. But it isn't every class ever.
I tell ya what, ask 20 random people on the street "what is a ninja". Not your gaming buddies , not people who think like you do, random people you do not really know, people who do not share the same background and see just how many say "a spell caster and shape shifter" If most of them say that it is a commonly excepted ninja trope, if most do not say that then it is not a common trope.
People simply do not think spell caster and shape shifter when you say Ninja
I addressed this argument a couple of pages back by countering with wizards, rangers, paladins, et al. A random sampling of people doesn't even remotely dictate what a class should or shouldn't do. Otherwise, the Oracle class would need a name change (which, admittedly, it really did, but Paizo didn't care).
Poll 20 random people in Japan, and they'd probably throw out a lot of mystical stuff, especially if they were in your general target demographic.
One more thing for the night - we're talking about cultural myths versus core mechanics.
There are a lot of people who feel that D&D and Pathfinder are modeling a traditional Western European culture. They're largely right. There's some other stuff there, but not all of it.
Start looking at a different cultural climate, and you darn well better tie in to its fantastical myths. If you're creating an African analogue, and there's myths about people who can do x that isn't something most characters can do in Pathfinder, and you darn well better create a class that can do it. Same with Native American cultures, or Aztec, or Atlantean, or Asian. People, by and large, just seem more aware of the myths and legends of the Orient, and there are distinctly different strains of myth and legend there than there are in Europe. What passed for a rogue in Europe didn't really have much in the way of magical mythical structure. They were incredibly skilled, but they probably weren't mages or witches. In Japan, there were hugely mythic things that the Ninja could do. They were not mundane trap monkeys in the same way that a thief in Europe would be. In some ways, they were gosh darn superheroes.
We're looking for a class that can model that myth without being broken and without requiring a character to be rogue 3/druid 4/sorcerer 6/monk 7 to accomplish it. Because, when you have to wait until 20th level to be the character you want to be, you're probably doing it wrong. And because people on these boards seem to be overly opposed to heavy multiclassing anyway.
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And here's where your fundamental point falls completely apart.You assume that "seekerofshadowlight" and "everyone" are equivalent. That because YOU do not make that association, NO ONE does. Or perhaps just that YOUR view can be the only correct one, and that people who don't follow it are clearly wrong and thus not worth considering as part of "everyone."
I tell ya what, ask 20 random people on the street "what is a ninja". Not your gaming buddies , not people who think like you do, random people you do not really know, people who do not share the same background and see just how many say "a spell caster and shape shifter" If most of them say that it is a commonly excepted ninja trope, if most do not say that then it is not a common trope.
People simply do not think spell caster and shape shifter when you say Ninja
So ask people who aren't going to play the game what should be the basis for the game?
And if it's the consensus you are looking for, wouldn't that be provided by the Wikipedia entry. You know the encyclopedia created by aggregate general knowledge. Isn't that a more valid source of consensus opinion than, say, what you personally think about an issue?
But dead horse is beaten. It would be nice to discuss actual ideas for what we want in the class.
Okay, i have to add something to what DoS said (sorry if cutting your nick short offends you), its like when this would be a discussion about Apache - you wouldn't go and ask people in Africa what an Apache is, cause they will shrug. Same as you couldn't go and ask what a Jannisar is in US, they will think its some kind of music, while in fact it was a name of elite Turkish army from medieval period.
Same is with people everywhere else, they will know oh its that guy with a poky stick that kills people from stealth, that isn't much more helpful than saying for Apache oh its that guy that throws axe's at stuff or for Janissar oh, its a guy that shoots from things you know ... maybe ... its not really helpful.
Cause of this, you need to go and ask Japanese about Japanese folklore, they kinda know about it more than anyone else in the world - especially about fantasy ninja's
I have to disagree, if your main buyers are Japanese then sure that is who you ask. If you main buyer are non japanese English speakers who do not know the myths and legends but still have an understanding of what a ninja is based of media then that is who you ask.
Making something based off buyers you do not have but in a market that is not your target market is not a good idea. You ask 20 random people from your target market
You will not get "Oh they are spell caster and shape shifters" from the non japanese. And lets be honest the japanese gamers are not the main and core target of pathfinder.
When it comes to ninja, it may be useful to incorporate a variety of styles. There can be ninja archetypes for all the base classes (alchemist, barbarian, bard, cavalier, cleric, druid, fighter, inquisitor, magus, monk, oracle, paladin, ranger, rogue, sorcerer, summoner, witch, wizard) as well as one or more ninja-focused base class: Full BAB stealthy warrior ninja, Medium BAB mystic infiltrator ninja, Half BAB spellcasting ninja, etc. etc.
Personally, I always picture a ninja as an unarmored mystic skill monkey.
Ninja
BAB: +¾
Good Saves: Reflex
Hit Dice: 1d8
Class Skills: Acrobatics, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge dungeoneering, Knowledge history, Knowledge local, Linguistics, Perception, Profession, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Swim, Use Magic Device.
Skill Ranks per Level: 6 + Intelligence modifier.
Ninja are proficient in all simple weapons, plus the kama, katana (bastard sword), kukri, longsword, nunchaku, sai, scimitar, short sword, shuriken, siangham, Ninja are not proficient in any armor or shields.
LEVEL ABILITY
1. AC Bonus, Ki Pool, Ki Reserve Power, Sudden Strike +1d6, Trapfinding
2. Evasion, Talent
3. Sudden Strike +2d6, Poison Use
4. Talent, +1 AC
5. Sudden Strike +3d6
6. Talent
7. Sudden Strike +4d6
8. Talent, +2 AC
9. Sudden Strike +5d6, Improved Poison Use
10. Advanced Talents, Talent
11. Sudden Strike +6d6
12. Talent, +3 AC
13. Sudden Strike +7d6
14. Talent
15. Sudden Strike +8d6, Greater Poison Use
16. Talent, + 4 AC
17. Sudden Strike +9d6
18. Talent
19. Sudden Strike +10d6
20. Ultimate Talent, Talent, +5 AC
AC Bonus. When unarmored and unencumbered, the ninja adds her Wisdom bonus (if any) to her AC and CMD. This applies to her touch AC and when she is flat-footed, but not when she is immobilized. At level 4, and every 4 levels thereafter, this bonus increases by 1.
Ki Pool (Su). The ninja has a reserve of mystical energy called her ki pool. It has a number of points equal to ½ her class level plus her Wisdom bonus. As long as she has at least 1 point in her ki pool, she has access to her Ki Reserve Power. By spending 1 point from her ki pool, a ninja can make 1 additional attack at her highest attack bonus when making a full attack. In addition, she can spend 1 point to increase her speed by 20 feet for round. Finally, a ninja can spend 1 point from her ki pool to give herself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round. Each of these powers is activated as a swift action. As a ninja gains levels, points from her ki pool can be spent to activate many of her Talents.
Ki Reserve Power (Su). At 1st level, the ninja chooses one of the following Ki Reserve Powers. As long as she has at least 1 point in her Ki Pool, she has access to her selected Ki Reserve Power.
Damage Reduction. The ninja gains DR/magic equal to ½ her level (minimum 1).
Enduring Fortitude. The ninja gains the benefits of the Endurance and Diehard feats. In addition, she adds half of her ninja level to the bonuses provided by the Endurance feat.
Energy Resistance. Choose 1 energy type (acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic). The ninja gains resistance 5 to the selected energy type; this increases by 5 at level 4 and every 4 levels thereafter.
Inner Strength. The ninja adds half her level (minimum 1) to her Will Saves.
Inner Fortitude. The ninja adds half her level (minimum 1) to her Fortitude Saves.
Light as Air. The ninja benefits from a constant feather fall effect. At 6th level, she gains a constant water walking effect. At 12th level, she gains a constant air walk effect.
Mystic Celerity. The ninja’s speed increases by 10 feet. This increases to 20 feet at 7th level, 30 feet at 13th level, and 40 feet at 19th level.
Night Vision. The ninja gains lowlight vision (or superior lowlight vision if she already has lowlight vision). At 5th level, she gains dark vision 60 feet (or her existing dark vision increases by 60 feet). At 10th level, she gains the ability to see through magical darkness. At 15th level, she gains blind sense 60 feet. At 20th level, she gains blind sight 30 feet.
Unarmed Damage. The ninja benefits from the Improved Unarmed Strike feat and her unarmed damage equals a monk’s of the same level. Monk and ninja levels stack for the purposes of determining her unarmed damage.
Sudden Strike (Ex). The ninja causes additional damage to any opponent that is flatfooted or denied its Dexterity bonus to AC. This damage is +1d6 at 1st level, plus an additional 1d6 points of damage every 2 levels thereafter.
Trapfinding. The ninja gains the rogue ability of the same name.
Evasion (Ex). The ninja gains the rogue ability of the same name.
Talents. At 2nd level, and every 2 levels there after the ninja chooses one of the following abilities.
Combat Mastery. The ninja can spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as a swift action and for 1 round gain the benefits of a combat feat that she qualifies for but does not have.
Concealment. The ninja can spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as a swift action gain concealment, including benefiting from a 20% miss chance, for a number of rounds equal to her Wisdom bonus.
Extra Class Skill. The ninja may choose 1 cross-class skill and add it to her list of class skills. This talent may be chosen more than once.
Ghost Sight. The ninja can spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as a swift action and benefit from the see invisible spell for a number of rounds equal to her Wisdom bonus.
Ghost Step. The ninja can spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as a swift action and become and remain invisible for 1 round.
Ghost Touch. The ninja can strike incorporeal targets as if they were corporeal.
Improved Uncanny Dodge. The ninja gains the Improved Uncanny Dodge ability. She must have Uncanny Dodge before selecting this ability.
Ki Blast. The ninja can spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as a swift action and for 1 round gain the ability to make ranged touch attacks with a range of 60 feet that cause damage equal to her ninja level plus her Wisdom bonus on a successful hit.
Minor Venom. The ninja can spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as a swift action and poison 1 weapon with a mystic poison for up to 1 minute per level or until the weapon successfully strikes a target. This poison does 1d3 points of ability damage of the ninja’s choice (Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma) for a number of rounds equal to the ninja’s Wisdom bonus. The Save DC is 10 + ½ the ninja’s class level + her Wisdom modifier. A successful save prevents further damage from occurring.
Potent Skill. Choose 1 skill you are trained in. The ninja can spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as a swift action and add +20 to the all skill checks of the chosen skill for 1 round. This ability may be selected more than once, each time applying to a different skill.
Puissant Strike. The ninja can spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as a swift action and add her Wisdom bonus to her attack and damage rolls for 1 round.
Rogue Talent. The ninja can select a rogue talent. She can choose this talent more than once, each time selecting a different talent from the list available to rogues.
Second Ki Reserve Power. The ninja may select a second Ki Reserve Power.
Silencing Attack. When the ninja makes a successful critical hit or sudden strike attack, she may spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as an immediate action and cause her opponent to be silenced (as the spell, but only targeting her opponent) for a number of rounds equal to her Wisdom bonus.
Swift Feint. The ninja can spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as a swift action and may make a Bluff check to feint in combat as a free action for 1 round.
Swift Stride. The ninja can spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as a swift action and move up to her speed.
Uncanny Dodge. The ninja gains the Uncanny Dodge ability.
Wholeness of Body. The ninja can spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as a swift action and regain a number of hit points equal to her class level.
Wraithstrike. The ninja can spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as a swift action and resolve all melee attacks for 1 round as melee touch attacks.
Poison Use (Ex). At 3rd level, the ninja never risks accidentally poisoning herself when using poison. At 9th level, she gains Improved Poison Use, which allows her to apply poison to her weapon as a move action. At 15th level, she gains Greater Poison Use, which allows her to apply poison to her weapon as an immediate action.
Advanced Talents (Su). Beginning at 10th level, the following advanced talents become available whenever the ninja may select a new talent.
Abundant Step. The ninja can spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as a swift action and use dimension door with a caster level equal to her ninja level.
Crippling Strike. The ninja gains the rogue ability of the same name.
Defensive Roll. The ninja gains the rogue ability of the same name.
Dispelling Attack. The ninja gains the rogue ability of the same name.
Feat. The ninja may select any feat she qualifies for.
Flicker. The ninja can spend 1 point from her Ki Pool and gain the ability to teleport 5 feet per 2 class levels as an immediate action once per round for a number of rounds equal to her Wisdom bonus. If she teleports away in response to an attack, she gains a 50% miss chance against that attack.
Ghost Mind. The ninja gains Spell Resistance 15 + her class level against divination spells.
Hide in Plain Sight. The ninja gains the ability to use the Stealth skill to hide even while being observed, as if she had the shadow dancer ability of the same name.
Hummingbird’s Dance. The ninja can spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as a swift action and gain the benefit of a Blink spell for a number of rounds equal to her class level.
Improved Concealment. The ninja can spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as a swift action gain full concealment, including benefiting from a 50% miss chance, for a number of rounds equal to her Wisdom bonus. She must have the Concealment talent before selecting this talent.
Improved Ghost Step. The ninja can spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as a swift action and become and remain ethereal for 1 round or invisible for a number of rounds equal to her Wisdom bonus. She must have the Ghost Step talent before selecting the ability.
Improved Ghost Sight. The ninja can spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as a swift action and benefit from True Seeing for a number of rounds equal to her Wisdom bonus. She must have the Ghost Sight talent before selecting this ability.
Improved Ki Blast. When the ninja uses her Ki Blast ability against the target, on a successful hit she may use one of the following abilities as a free action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity: Bull Rush, Disarm, Sunder, or Trip using a CMB equal to the ninja’s class level plus her Wisdom bonus, or Pull the opponent a distance towards the ninja, up to the closest square that is adjacent to the ninja.
Improved Wholeness of Body. The ninja can spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as a swift action and gain Fast Healing equal to ½ her class level for a number of rounds equal to her Wisdom modifier. She must have the Wholeness of Body ability before selecting this ability.
Ki Mastery. The ninja gains the ability to spend points from her Ki Pool as a free action instead of as a swift action.
Ki Strike. The ninja can spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as an immediate action and for 1 round bypass all kinds of damage reduction.
Major Venom. The ninja can spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as a swift action and poison 1 weapon with a mystic poison for up to 1 hour per level or until the weapon successfully strikes a target. This poison does 1d6 points of ability damage of the ninja’s choice (Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma) for a number of rounds equal to the ninja’s Wisdom bonus. The Save DC is 10 + ½ the ninja’s class level + her Wisdom modifier. Two successful saves prevent further damage from occurring.
Opportunist. The ninja gains the rogue ability of the same name.
Poison Resistance. Whenever the ninja is subjected to ability damage or ability drain from poison, she subtracts her Wisdom bonus from the amount of ability damage or ability drain she suffers.
Potent Poison. If the ninja uses poison on an attack that is also a successful sudden strike, she adds the number of sudden strike dice she has to the Save DC of the poison.
Skill Mastery. The ninja gains the rogue ability of the same name.
Slippery Mind. The ninja gains the rogue ability of the same name.
Third Ki Reserve Power. The ninja may select a third Ki Reserve Power. She must have the Second Ki Reserve Power ability before selecting this talent.
Ultimate Talent (Su). At 20th level, the ninja may select one of the following abilities in addition to the regular Talent or Advanced Talent she gets for being 20th level.
Fourth Reserve Power. The ninja can choose a fourth reserve power. She must have the Third Reserve Power Advanced Talent to select this ultimate talent.
Ghost Walk. The ninja can spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as a swift action and benefit from the Ethereal Jaunt spell.
Quick Killer. The ninja can make a coup de grace as a swift action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Shadow Walk. The ninja can spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as a swift action and benefit from the Shadow Walk spell.
True Venom. The ninja can spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as a swift action and poison 1 weapon with a mystic poison for up to 1 hour per level or until the weapon successfully strikes a target. This poison does 2d6 points of ability damage of the ninja’s choice (Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma) for a number of rounds equal to the ninja’s Wisdom bonus. The Save DC is 10 + ½ the ninja’s class level + her Wisdom modifier. Three successful saves prevent further damage from occurring.
Truly Potent Poison. If the ninja uses poison on an attack that is also a successful sudden strike, she adds her sudden strike damage to the save DC of the poison.
Truly Puissant Strike. When the ninja makes a successful critical hit or sudden strike attack, she may spend 1 point from her Ki Pool as an immediate action to cause maximum damage.
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I have to disagree, if your main buyers are Japanese then sure that is who you ask. If you main buyer are non japanese English speakers who do not know the myths and legends but still have an understanding of what a ninja is based of media then that is who you ask.
Making something based off buyers you do not have but in a market that is not your target market is not a good idea. You ask 20 random people from your target market
You will not get "Oh they are spell caster and shape shifters" from the non japanese. And lets be honest the japanese gamers are not the main and core target of pathfinder.
Wikipedia is not Japanese.
Cite a source that defends your point that a ninja is not what has been described by all of the resources we have provided to you. Without sources, you are only giving your personal opinion. And despite what Stephen Colbert may teach, your gut isn't as accurate as, say, a book on Ninjas.
The burden to disprove is no longer on those of us who have provided evidence from sources as to what a Ninja is. Is on you who have not.
Sigh how about most non Asian ninja movies, ya know the ones that got real popular over here. American ninja? ninja assassin? James bond? GI joe? DC comics? Marvel comics? Outside a few examples the Ninja is just not magical in Western media { Paizo's target group BTW}
Your using a source no one ever references. When you do web searches for "what is a ninja " you get This and This and This
On Ninjutsu we get This
Even if you use your wiki that are just not common abilities but powers some ninja had {screams PRC to me]
or we all could just stop focusing on one poster's personal crusade.
Let me shift gears and ask another question. There are a few people here that want a mystical aspect to their ninja. what would be the best way to do this? 6 level spontaneous casting like a bard? 4 level divine setup a la rangers/paladins? Ki powers? Cavalier/ninja orders?
My own preference was monk style ki powers, based on the idea that a good ninja class seems like the monk, a balance of Extraordinary powers that extend his physical abilities, then switching into supernatural abilities at higher levels, as the ninja transcends more spiritual abilities. But that's based on a class that is really a catchall for wuxia tropes.
How would you handle the dastardly combat style of the ninja? sneak attack? something else? I was thinking recently if a ninja was a bard archetype, perhaps his combat ability would rely on his bluff ranks in stead of perform.
Heck if you think ninjas should follow a rogue archetype, lets see some ninja talents! I want to nom on your ninja ideas.
GI joe? DC comics? Marvel comics? Outside a few examples the Ninja is just not magical in Western media { Paizo's target group BTW
For a DC geek, you have me on trying to think of many ninjas outside of Ra's al Ghul's League of Assassins, and in more recent eras you get into the Man Bat Ninjas and nobody wants that . . .
However . . . um . . . lots of Hand ninja in Marvel comics have had magical powers. And Storm Shadow got shot in the head and dumped in Serpentor's vat and survived.
Granted, G.I. Joe was relatively "subtle" with their ninja abilities, but still, there were some intentionally borderline supernatural moments in the Marvel series.
GI joe? DC comics? Marvel comics? Outside a few examples the Ninja is just not magical in Western media { Paizo's target group BTWFor a DC geek, you have me on trying to think of many ninjas outside of Ra's al Ghul's League of Assassins, and in more recent eras you get into the Man Bat Ninjas and nobody wants that . . .
However . . . um . . . lots of Hand ninja in Marvel comics have had magical powers. And Storm Shadow got shot in the head and dumped in Serpentor's vat and survived.
Granted, G.I. Joe was relatively "subtle" with their ninja abilities, but still, there were some intentionally borderline supernatural moments in the Marvel series.
Its a bit of a stretch but I would have thought the manhunters qualify, although they are not specifically ninjas.
The differences between a rogue and a ninja could be made as vast a difference as between a cleric and a druid. You don't need a druid, you could just play a cleric of nature and call yourself a druid and be done with it, but guess what, just like with the duality between a rogue and a ninja, many people wont be happy. Classes represent archetypes, and especially archetypes in media and lore, and lets face it, the ninja concept is too big to NOT be made into a class of its own. So go on and say nay all you want it really will not change anything.
Arguing about if there should be a ninja class or not is pointless, as Jason has already stated in an interview that the samurai and ninja classes are at the top of the to-do list for the oriental version of the game.
I agree a cleric and a druid could be the same class, or if I had my way totally reworked. I don't think they intend to make a new class, but an archetype or sub class. I am cool with an archetype and new feats and rogue talents, I be fine with ninja as a rogue, but monk also gaining a ninja inspired archetype
I am wanting and think the rogue is the classic non mystic ninja, the black clad, weapon using ,assassin/spy. But am not opposed to other classes having archetypes pulled from ninja legend with different names. Kuji-kiri for example could be a neat mystic archetype for say the monk, ya could take shape shifting and make some kind of druid archetype
But if it uses the name ninja it should be a rogue is all I am saying as that class already does the common ninja tropes.
I am also pulling for a cavalier archetype for the samurai, new samurai orders could rock.
I am also pulling for a cavalier archetype for the samurai, new samurai orders could rock.
on this, you and I totally agree. Challenge is such an awesome mechanic for samurai. The charging doesn't hurt either.
I am also pulling for a cavalier archetype for the samurai, new samurai orders could rock.on this, you and I totally agree. Challenge is such an awesome mechanic for samurai. The charging doesn't hurt either.
Yeah no kidding, when I first read the class it was like, woh a samurai that doesn't suck at last! I am fine with em keeping the horse as smaurai were cavalry units after all an I myself like that flavor and would like to see it kept as it is so often ignored.
Okay, so three people besides me want an actual ninja "class."
I haven't counted seekersofshadowlight in that tally.
MEMEMEME!
Yeah no kidding, when I first read the class it was like, woh a samurai that doesn't suck at last! I am fine with em keeping the horse as smaurai were cavalry units after all an I myself like that flavor and would like to see it kept as it is so often ignored.I am also pulling for a cavalier archetype for the samurai, new samurai orders could rock.on this, you and I totally agree. Challenge is such an awesome mechanic for samurai. The charging doesn't hurt either.
Hey, something Seeker and I agree on!
Beware, the world may be coming to an end.
Heh yeah, we may all seem to disagree on what a ninja is, but it looks like a few of us think the caviler makes a fine samurai anyhow :)
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I can only speak for myself here but personally I am quite happy with Ninja being a rogue archetype or (several archetypes). There are several reasons for this
1. I see no reason why Ninja as it stands now cant be covered with core classes with archetypes.
2. A full class requires a lot more space to take up than an archetype and I feel we have enough full classes as is
3. Part of me actually suspects that if they do make Ninja a full class we will have a repeat of what happened with the Magus (ie several people deciding that this wasent the way they wanted it) which leads to
4 People are talking about magical ninja whilst others are asking for a Ninja that is good in combat and I don't see it going both ways.
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I've used this argument before, and I'll use it again. If make ninja a new class, dispite the fact that it's a rogue with (maybe) a few abilites that can be explained away as magical items, multiclassing, or a prestige class, then where do we draw the line. Should wa eliminate the concept of archtypes and make them all seperate 20 level classes? Should we re-write all the prestige classes as base classes? Should we completely switch to a point-based classless system where you can build your own class from a gigantic list of abilities/features?
MEMEMEME!Okay, so three people besides me want an actual ninja "class."
I haven't counted seekersofshadowlight in that tally.
Huzzah!
I still want an actual ninja class, I just don't see the point in arguing about it for 17 days.It's kinda pudpumperish.
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I just don't want base classes in Pathfinder to become what prestige classes were in D&D 3.X...something that they feel compelled to throw into every book to pad it out. And I also agree with those who have said that there should probably be ninja of lots of various classes. But the classical ninja (the one Paizo's audience is most familiar with, and more in line with the historic ninja) fits the rogue class like a glove of dexterity.
Already posted inklings of this in the Homebrew board, but I've already decided that Samurai is a caste or social class, not a player class. Several base classes with some archetypal tweaks work well with Samurai, plus I needed to add a couple non-martial types that need to fit in the social caste as well.
Cavalier (hatamoto) is one of the best of the new classes to fit the concept of Samurai, so I will be developing specific orders, banners and such for the various war bands throughout Kaidan. One serving the Shogunate directly, as in the Shogun's army. Another to serve in the elite forces of specific daimyo provincial lords. Perhaps one with an evil twist like the Order of the Cockatrice, and one for the forces of good.
Fighter can easily fit due to its flexibility to other types of samurai warrior, perhaps switching up some of his fear resistance with intimidation buffs instead. Give the fighter a very limited ki pool and a handful of ki powers to activate - this would replace one of the Armor Training levels.
Ranger - like the archetype Urban Ranger, this ranger will not resemble a wilderness type, rather something more courtly and urban. I want to introduce a few additional combat styles to cover the varying weapon skills of samurai types. I plan to replace the divine casting with either kuji-kiri or ki powers.
I want to include a list of Samurai feats, especially Ancestral Weapon Feats, that grant ancestral bonuses to Att/Dam plus special weapon properties above +5, as well as coupling a few bonus feats at certain progression levels.
I originally created Iaijutsu Strike precision damage progression in my original Samurai class design. Now I'm thinking of creating an Iaijutsu Master prestige class with other samurai base class as a prerequisite, then place the Iaijutsu Strike precision damage progression solely in this prestige class. I will be creating a couple more samurai prestige classes as well.
Next and still a problem for me, I want to create a Bard based Courtier class of the Samurai caste, something like the Kuge Meike administrator, biwa (mandolin) and saga singing is appropriate for a courtier as well as a bard based one. Looking at Arcane Blade archetype from APG on this.
Finally, the setting's wizard class or Onmyoji is a samurai caste born spell caster that exclusively serves the samurai and nobility, never serving the lower classes. This wizard uses origami folded 'animals' as both somantic and material components with varying quality 'paper' for material component. Also this wizard summons a Shikigami (least oni) as its familiar.
All this is my Samurai Caste members...
GP
I just don't want base classes in Pathfinder to become what prestige classes were in D&D 3.X...something that they feel compelled to throw into every book to pad it out. And I also agree with those who have said that there should probably be ninja of lots of various classes. But the classical ninja (the one Paizo's audience is most familiar with, and more in line with the historic ninja) fits the rogue class like a glove of dexterity.
+1
This is the point. Should vs. can it be done.
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Do beginner ninjas have the ability to shapechange, control the elements, etc? Do ALL ninjas have these abilities? If you answered no to both questions, you don't want these abilities to be a part of your ninja class, you want to take a dip into another class.
Seriously, take a rogue. Add the acrobat and scout archtypes. Consider multiclassing into shadowdancer. Instant Ninja.
If you insist on a base class, you could always use Super Genius Games' very nice Shadow Assassin. It was built specifically with the ninja in mind.
I originally created Iaijutsu Strike precision damage progression in my original Samurai class design. Now I'm thinking of creating an Iaijutsu Master prestige class with other samurai base class as a prerequisite, then place the Iaijutsu Strike precision damage progression solely in this prestige class. I will be creating a couple more samurai prestige classes as well.
For my money, vital strike, combined with quickdraw, is a great Iaijutsu mechanic already in the game. For iaijutsu duels, you could just have both sides simultaneously using feints, as they try to hide their intended attack angle/maneuver, and deduce the opposing attack. The only problem is feinting's reliance on bluff. You could make a rule where in an iaijutsu duel, someone uses bluff or BAB +wisdom for their feint roll.
edit-
The only other thing I think missing for iaijutsu mechanics is perhaps a feat to emphasize as a tactic at levels lower than 6th. Something that would have quickdraw as prerequisite.
second edit-
Just thought of something else. If you wanted to make dueling truly deadly in tradition of the movies, you could say that rather than flatfooting the opposition, a successful feint during a duel allows you to coup d'gras them. Thus, you might even have situations where both duelists die in the first round, which as I understand it was not uncommon.