In my opinion, I would like to see something on par with the Red Box that Wizards just released for the D & D Essentials line. So, bearing that in mind, here's what I personally would like to see in a Pathfinder Intro Set.
First, a sturdy box with great art on the cover. One of the things that first drew me to Pathfinder in the first place was the beautiful art your books have. It always catches my eye when I'm at the store, and I think equally good art would have the same effect on others.
A simplified "Player's Book" would also be nice. You could limit the book to the core races and classes, and only provide the first few levels of each class so the people who play it will have incentive to go out and buy the Core Rulebook. There should also be a quick description of the skills, a couple of feats, a good amount of weapons, and spells from 0-level to 3rd level. Also, a copy of the character sheet in the back would be nice too.
A "Game Master's Guide" would also be nice for those who are going to take on that responsibility. It should be filled everything a New GM would need to run a game for the first time and anything else he might need for future sessions. Kind of like a simplified, condensed version of the game mastering sections of the Core Rulebook.
Pre-Generated characters would also be nice. It would allow people to pick up the box and play it soon afterwords. Like the 3.5 intro kit, it would be a good idea to just use four of the iconics from the game. My vote would be for Valeros, Kyra, Merisiel, and Ezren. The represent the basic adventuring party and would show people what a balanced part looks like.
Some form of tokens or miniatures would be nice as well. There should be your basic assortment of monsters you would typically fight at low level and one "boss" monsters like a small dragon or something of that nature. Then miniatures or tokens representing the pre-generated characters packaged with the set.
A battle-mat would also be nice. Maybe have a smaller version of the erasable battle-mat from your Gamemastery line (my favorite battle-mat of all time by the way). Maybe two were one is like this and the other is a double-sided, previously designed battle-mat.
Also, finally, a basic 1st level adventure for starters. The adventure should be something classic like a dungeon crawl, but still be up to Pathfinder standards.
While this might sound like a lot, I'm just thinking about what Pathfinder would need to bring it up to par with other game starter sets, like the Red Box, and get new people hooked.
Beloved Paizo,
Trust in your instincts as a publisher.
Paizo definitely styles itself as the spiritual caretaker of the game's tradition. The earlier editions of the game had a lot for basic/new users to latch onto. Paizo staff should spend some time searching your memory for your earliest game experiences, and try to include what worked there.
I really think that sticking to the spirit of what made us all play the game for the first time is the way to go.
There are some pitfalls that concern me, based on the evolution of the core rules...
The most important thing: Please get total novices involved as testers in your research and design process. Find people who are naive but interested, and have them try the system in a controlled fashion so that you still have some total newbs reviewing your final versions.
I'm quite interested in usability design. If there is one truism of that field it is this: You cannot trust yourself to know what is easy for a new user. You must always find a new user, and have them confirm it for you. If you rely on your own expertise as designers and developers, you will miss the mark. Anyone who knows the RPG industry can easily think of two or three games that failed to include crucial information in an initial release! (this is especially true for "entry" products like this one, which regularly leave gaps when transitioning from the larger ruleset. I've seen it many times.)
This same kind of feature blindness came up in several places in the Core Rulebook (leveling characters, treasure generation...). The most basic and obvious features of the game are the first thing that "lifer" professionals in the industry overlook. It is vital to understand that all of the domain knowledge that makes a good RPG designer undermines the perspective necessary to design for new users. It's not a bad thing, just a fact. Even the greatest designers need outside perspective, and "outside" in this case means "Has never played an RPG", no pretending.
Start...
+1
Now I'm on the verge of nit-picking details, but I really think you should make it in A5 format instead of the usual A4, for several reasons;
- A 40 page softcover A4 book doesn't look too good. An 80 page A5 looks far better.
- The same for the boxed set; a boxed set with the shape of the Munchkin cardgame box looks far better than a broad, flat box. And it's more volume per square inch cardboard.
- It's easier to carry. This is the big reason. From what I've seen, the game will be more or less a stripped-down pathfinder. This makes it ideal even for players who's played for a while but don't have the rules in the head to have as a book to keep when travelling, instead of carrying the cumbersome core rulebook and bestiary.
- For a simpler game, A5 character sheets is great and looks less threatening than the big A4.
Only drawback I can see is that A5 doesn't look as good next to the other in the bookcase. On the other hand, thin A4 softbacks don't look that good either.
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Now I'm on the verge of nit-picking details, but I really think you should make it in A5 format instead of the usual A4, for several reasons;
- A 40 page softcover A4 book doesn't look too good. An 80 page A5 looks far better.
- The same for the boxed set; a boxed set with the shape of the Munchkin cardgame box looks far better than a broad, flat box. And it's more volume per square inch cardboard.
- It's easier to carry. This is the big reason. From what I've seen, the game will be more or less a stripped-down pathfinder. This makes it ideal even for players who's played for a while but don't have the rules in the head to have as a book to keep when travelling, instead of carrying the cumbersome core rulebook and bestiary.
- For a simpler game, A5 character sheets is great and looks less threatening than the big A4.Only drawback I can see is that A5 doesn't look as good next to the other in the bookcase. On the other hand, thin A4 softbacks don't look that good either.
Paizo doesn't use A4, they use that wacky US format.
Now I'm on the verge of nit-picking details, but I really think you should make it in A5 format instead of the usual A4, for several reasons;
Paizo doesn't use A4, they use that wacky US format.
I'm aware of that, but it's about the size of an A4 so I just called it that out of laziness and not bothering to check up the name of the size >.< But my point is: use a smaller format. Big books looks lamer when not opened and more threatening when opened.
To stand out from 'the other', this is the chance where you throw in that one class and/or that one race that would get the discerning new player's attention. "ooooh, they have that? I wanted to always play a ... tengu."
There's going to be that one kid that may be a scion of grognards or up a little bit more on their fantasy tropes and sees the stock content and go ... meh. Throw in that shiny to go with the core race/class.
I'm aware of that, but it's about the size of an A4 so I just called it that out of laziness and not bothering to check up the name of the size >.< But my point is: use a smaller format. Big books looks lamer when not opened and more threatening when opened.Now I'm on the verge of nit-picking details, but I really think you should make it in A5 format instead of the usual A4, for several reasons;
Paizo doesn't use A4, they use that wacky US format.
I've also always found that big RPG books were hard to disguise at school in my younger years. If you truly want to infiltrate recess and capture the minds of the young, you might consider using the same size handbook as your planet stories line.
If your target audience are kids:
A few posts before I have tried to enforce the need to offer such an intro game in large toy-stores or supermarkets such as toy'r'us here in germany. There is one thing you should not ignore, but i don't know who will handle this paizo or ulissesd: we need a german version of the intro game.
i also mentioned miniatures and forgot to mention that these should be plastic, preassembld (and perhaps prepainted). Kids like figurines not paper tokens that's at least my experience with a 4-year old and a 6 year old boy and a 7 year old girl.
For the girl you should include a fairy and unicorn ;-)
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The most important thing: Please get total novices involved as testers in your research and design process. Find people who are naive but interested, and have them try the system in a controlled fashion so that you still have some total newbs reviewing your final versions.
Oh how very, very true.
The Paizo board members posting here probably represent the most hard-core of the hard-core fans who know the ins and outs of the game better than 90% of the population. Once you have an idea of what you want to include, you really do need to get the advice of those who you're going to be selling the game to in regards to how that info should be presented and how easy it is to understand.
CEO
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I guess my point is to not sacrifice the quality that Paizo is known for in order to stuff more goodies into the box. Whenever I open my wallet to buy something that says Paizo on it, I know I am buying a product of superior craftsmanship. I'd rather see no starter set than one that contains crappy newsprint booklets and cheapo dice.
That is a key point. One of the things that I will never let our guys do (and I doubt they would want to) is sacrifice quality. I'd rather have less in the product and keep what's left high quality than get more but cheaper stuff.
-Lisa
I think there are two ways of saving space: limit the levels (because you need less spells), or limit the rules (because you need no skills and feats and less combat rules). Here's how I'm comparing the two:
Limiting levels gives the product with a limited lifespan. It suggests a throwaway product to me. We don't have an Expert system to transition to where the spells in the Basic edition remain valid. Instead, people will replace the starter set. Dump it. Throw it away. A one-use product. That's not cool.
Limiting levels also suggests that kids aged 10-14 will have to read the Core Rules after ten or fifteen sessions once they hit the level limit. If find it hard to believe in a success transition to the Core Rules at that age. I barely grasped the AD&D 1st ed DMG when I was 15 and kept on ignoring many of the optional rules. At least they were optional!
Limiting the rules, on the other hand, will allow people to add to their existing characters. It will appeal to power-gamers. It will make their existing characters more awesome. They will love the Core Rules. They will want to introduce Power Attack, and Trip, and more spells – once they're ready for it! Once they're old enough, once they've played many sessions and gained many levels.
Assuming we want to introduce young teenagers to the game, I think that limiting levels is a bad choice. Don't do it. Instead, consider less rules. Limiting the rules is not a problem.
A forty years old friend I introduced to the game thought the glacial speed of combat was ridiculous. Thus, it's not only kids that don't like getting bogged down by the rules. They, too, would appreciate a simpler introduction to the hobby.
I saw someones idea on face book about counters and cards and things to be printed on a CD
maybe partner up with herolabs and have them make the demo for their character creator and on the same CD have the PDFs
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I won't belabor points already made here, but I am VERY interested in a Pathfinder product which is a complete BASIC product line, where the current Pathfinder becomes "Advanced Pathfinder" and a new stripped-down rules-light product becomes "Basic Pathfinder". The demand for rules-light products are huge. There is a large pent-up demand for OGL/OSR products, but there haven't been products that have a high-quality production value, nothing like the Pathfinder line. A basic Pathfinder version (maybe with three classes, a 64 page basic rulebook, a bestiary, and a full line of modules (just stripped down versions of the current Pathfinder modules) would be an amazing product which would appeal to brand new audience.
I haven't bought into the Pathfinder line because I prefer rules-light systems, and those who game in my group are like me -- we're busy people and don't want heavy rulessets. I would gladly plunk down $100s of dollars on product if only Pathfinder had a 'basic' version which was a full game unto itself with a full, stand-alone product line.
Guys, just strip down the Pathfinder stuff to look something like Swords & Wizardry, keep all the excellent art, brand it 'Pathfinder Basic' and you'll have a huge new audience! Then you can have intro. sets for BOTH Pathfinder Basic and Pathfinder Advanced.
Best yet (in terms of making $ for Paizo) -- if someone tires of having spent $100s on Pathfinder Basic, then can spend $100s more and convert over to Pathfinder Advanced!
First of all, if it is in a box I will buy it :-)
To get younger players or new players into the hobby it has to be in toy-stores. FLGS are more or less gone here in germany and where they still exist, only players will enter them.
My two euro cents:
- Level 1 to 5 (so spellcasters can fly and fling fireballs around)
- human, elf, dwarf, gnome (to keep it recognicable for LOTR movie goers but different enough from LOTR to give it a uniqe feel)
- Fighter, Wizard, Rogue, Cleric
- Feats, Skills, CMB included but with fewer options
- Fewer Spells, Weapons and Armors
The following would be good example models; Kenzerco's Hackmaster basic,
Green Ronin's Dragon Age RPG set 1, and even TSR's 1070 Black Box set from the early 90's.
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Something that should be avoided is making new players think of the box set as a board game. This happened with the 3e set and my daughter and it took a lot to get the notion out of her mind. As for preassigned stats I disagree. Rolling dice is fun and a group rolling a bunch of dice is a good lead in to playing. It can encourage talking about the characters and development. If the starter box simplifies the best parts of the game I worry about not really representing the game.
We're VERY early in the preliminary stages of designing this game, and there's really not much more for us to say about it now other than "We're doing it."
What would be more valuable to us would be: What do YOU the customer hope to see in a Pathfinder introduction game?
Not a separate game. Rather, a slimming down of the options available into more digestible bits for beginning players.
Boxed Set Includes:
Dice
Book 1: Player's Book
Classes: 1/2 of the existing classes max, with the focus on simplicity. My votes: Fighter, Rogue, Sorceror, Alchemist, Paladin or Cavalier, Oracle
Races: Human, Elf, Dwarf, Halfling
Complete skill list
Pared-down feat list
Levels covered: 1-4 (enough to cover the 1st installment of an AP & start them into vol 2)
Pared-down spell list
Book 2: GM Book
Combat
NPC essentials
Encounter essentials
Sample Bestiary
Book 3: Golarion teaser & intro adventure
...and that's it. No 2nd set. It should be an intro product to the PFRPG & nothing more.
My kids are already playing PFRPG. My oldest has expressed an interest in running his own game. The set described above would be perfect for getting him started and easing him into the GM's chair. Once he's cut his teeth on that, switch him over to the real-deal RPG.
I have to say, the best thing to really look at is the original red box basic set. I know it is hard to recapture that magic, but that thing sold several million copies. So I suggest a no more than 64 page player's book, no more than 64 page DM's book, and a 16 or 32 page module. I really think a Pathfinder update of D0: Hollow's Last Hope would be perfect for this.
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Moving this from the blog thread:
Please don't use the text of the Intro rules as blatant advertising. I know the idea of this is basically to get new folks into the game and of course buying more products, but please don't make it a whorish, 'Thanks for spending 20-30 bucks on this, now immediately run out and spend $50 more'...
Just slip an advert into the box. Maybe a small catalog, specifically for the Core/APG/GMG and some of the AP/modules.
As for rules content, I'm inclined to agree with:
-Races: Human, Elf, Dwarf, Halfling
-Classes: Fighter, Wizard, Cleric Rogue, levels 1-5 only
-Full combat rules
-Full skill rules
-Limited feat options
-Limited equipment (basic adventuring kit, smaller weapon list)
-Limited spell choices
-Simple magic weapons only
You want all the concepts included, but don't need every single option.
A good intro adventure. You have amazing writers working/freelancing for you, so I have no fears in this area.
And a GM's booklet that includes, not only some of the basic tips from the GMG, but also a small Bestiary including some beasties that aren't used in the premade adventure. So that GMs can make their own adventures up if they wish.
What I would really like to see. Really really like to see, is a completely stand-alone product. Something along the lines of the E6 system that advances you to level 5 or 6 normally, then uses some other simple method of character improvement after that. Then the Intro set can serve as a gateway product or as it's own thing and yet be compatible with the low level modules that you already make.
And even though I'm a big a fan as I am of the iconics, and as sad as I am to see them go from the APs, I don't think their stats should be used for this. I'd rather see some blank character sheets provided...
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I guess my point is to not sacrifice the quality that Paizo is known for in order to stuff more goodies into the box. Whenever I open my wallet to buy something that says Paizo on it, I know I am buying a product of superior craftsmanship. I'd rather see no starter set than one that contains crappy newsprint booklets and cheapo dice.That is a key point. One of the things that I will never let our guys do (and I doubt they would want to) is sacrifice quality. I'd rather have less in the product and keep what's left high quality than get more but cheaper stuff.
-Lisa
Hence the importance of dice - intro means the probability that this the only RPG stuff the buyer/reciever has. You don't want to force the buyer to spend X on the game and then need to buy dice too - what if they didn't know they need weird dice?
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A couple of blog articles which speak to the discontent of many that games are too long, and the desire for a rules-light line of games:
http://blog.retroroleplaying.com/2010/09/time-and-learning-new-roleplaying- games.html
http://lawfulindifferent.blogspot.com/2010/09/why-are-games-so-damn-long.ht ml
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However, on the assumption Paizo is going to do a good on setting up the Basic rules, why not go ahead and expand them out to 15th level, to match the Adventure Paths? It'd still be a teachable version of Pathfinder and draw in some brand new players. And, it may also have some appeal to people wanting a rules-lite version of Pathfinder to use with all that adventure material.
Exellent point. The APs are likely to remain Paizo's bread and butter, so to speak. So why not have Pathfinder Lite also support them...expanding the base for your bread-n-butter product is definately a good thing.
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However, on the assumption Paizo is going to do a good on setting up the Basic rules, why not go ahead and expand them out to 15th level, to match the Adventure Paths? It'd still be a teachable version of Pathfinder and draw in some brand new players. And, it may also have some appeal to people wanting a rules-lite version of Pathfinder to use with all that adventure material.Exellent point. The APs are likely to remain Paizo's bread and butter, so to speak. So why not have Pathfinder Lite also support them...expanding the base for your bread-n-butter product is definately a good thing.
This is most likely an unrealistic proposition, and one that would give the editors acid reflux to even think about, but:
A line of short, simple to run Basic APs? Or a line of modules geared towards the simplified rules? With either of those running on a slower production rate than the standard lines.
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After reading Kensenata's post, I also think it would be better to not have level caps, just the simpler rules. That way they can continue playing.
* Perhaps this can be a Beginner's Guide to the Pathfinder Core Rulebook. It can start at first level, super simple, and add new rules as the players level. Or, have a series of rules that get more difficult.
In any case, this Guide would reference the Core book, and have a shorter explanation of the new rule and how to incorporate it into the game. *
I don't have any clue as to how difficult this would be to do, but it sounds interesting enough.
I would like to see Paizo look beyond the box/booklet on how to retain these new players. Integrate any adventure in the intro product into Pathfinder Society Play. Have them register the character to get updates and continuing feedback and messages by email following their initial experience. Make a good web experience that new players can easily use that will also benefit the established players.
The Pathfinder Aid Society reporting needs a make over that could be integrated with this new player welcome. In the days following their initial report send suggestions for other scenarios designed for the characters they played. Ideas on how to modify the characters they played in the initial scenario for a new experience during a second playing. Two additional set-piece battles beyond those in the initial scenario. Use it to integrate them into the online Paizo community and through that to the full RPG.
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Here is what I typed after beginning to read the blog thread. It seems here is where it should go.
First, you will need to decide on the buying target you’re aiming for, as well as the goal you want to reach with this product and clearly delineate it to all participants on the project (including the posters here since you want our input).
Second, benchmark.
Ask people who did the same thing on other kind of products and ask for their experience. Examples: the guys who designed Pokemon based on Magic, the guys who did the original Basic set.
Ask people who produced best-selling products for your target and identify the key success factors as well as the common hurdles.
Make something that is easy to learn, easy to master, easy to play.
And put in the box everything that is needed to play it (including dice, mats and paper tokens for characters). Concerning mats, several sheets of paper ones might be better than plastic ones. It would also be a great incentive to buy the plastic mats later on.
One good way to go into simplification is to remove all topics that are covered at length and in detail in the rulebooks and/or which generate lot of debates and questions here on the forums. This should also keep munckinism to a minimum.
Get rid of all the small rules that get into the way of mastering the system, even if they make for better simulation. The goal here is to get players thoroughly enthused with the system and asking for more options, which they will find in the PFRPG.
Races: the basics from the LotR (Human, Elf, Dwarf, Halfling)
For each race, keep only the simple and most thematic elements. Avoid anything that gives exceptions (ie conditional modifiers).
Classes: the basics from any fantasy computer game (look at the oldest) : Fighter, Wizard, Rogue, Healer
For each class, pare them down to their main theme. This way, when they get to PFRPG, it will be like opening a treasure trove of new and exciting possibilities.
Fighter has hit points, armor and weapons. Only Fighter can use 2H-weapons.
Wizard casts hurting/disabling spells (both area and targeted). No schools. No armor.
Rogue gets past doors and traps. No sneak attack. Light armor only.
Healer casts healing/enabling spells. No Domain. Light or Medium armor.
Keep at the lower levels 1-5 at most, 1-3 likely better.
Simplify combat: no Maneuvers, no AoO, no Reach, no delaying, no readying, only move, standard and free actions. No surprise round: only acting and not acting (ie, surprised) characters.
Less variety in Equipment:
Weapons = Dagger, Sword (1H and 2H), Axe (1H and 2H), Club (1H and 2H). Bow, crossbow, sling.
Armors = 1 of each category
No Encumbrance rules
No feats (a good advice given previously on the blog thread). Be aware that this means no competitive TWF.
Fewer skills: go for the minimum required by a usual game for each of the classes. No armor check penalty.
Fewer spells: concentrate on the simple evocative ones (magic missile). Do not put a spell that enables a class to compete with another one’s theme or to ignore its thematic drawbacks (no Mage Armor)
I am of two minds when it comes to Saving throws: I would say you get rid of them to enhance the simplicity of the system, but they may be too embedded in it (in spells mostly). They could be usefully replaced with DEX, CON and WIS checks respectively though.
Get rid of the alignment.
Use classic monsters of the appropriate level especially those who have become a sample of Paizo’s most beloved adventures (goblins, ghouls, zombies, and of course a dragon).
No DR (though immunity to certain types of attacks is OK), no SR, no fast healing/regeneration. In fact, no special abilities that require additional bookkeeping or entail exceptions to the basic system. Have everything resolved through the basic attack roll, AC, damage, HP.
No conditions, or very basic obvious ones (invisible).
Well, that is all for the moment. Hope it helps.
The most important thing: Please get total novices involved as testers in your research and design process. Find people who are naive but interested, and have them try the system in a controlled fashion so that you still have some total newbs reviewing your final versions.
That's an excellent point. It's so true, and it's so important.
I've had real-newbie-user-ish usability testing done on my (software) work in the past, organized by people with expertise in setting these things up, and it is deeply, deeply humbling. You really have no idea how much complexity you gloss over in your designs until you set it in front of someone else who doesn't know enough better.
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You want all the concepts included, but don't need every single option.
You might not even need that. If we open up our minds and consider what could be cut and still leave a distinctly "Pathfinder" game, that helps narrow the focus.
Skills?
If we had no skills, what would suffer? Are they too tied into every other part of the system?
Criticals?
Could disappear and no one would really notice. We did without them for 25 years. Or you keep them, but simplify resolution and trim down things that need clarifying -- a simple rule that says "any roll of a 20 that still hits the AC targeted results in maximum damage" would work.
Spells?
I would go through the spell list like a madman, cutting out 40-50% of them. Any spell that relies on tedious mechanics (Black Tentacles, I'm looking at you).
Combat Maneuvers?
Bye-bye! Grapple, been nice knowing you! Reduce it down to one maneuver at most, and describe a simple bulleted list of things that you can do with a successful check, like "Foe drops weapon" and "Foe moves back 5 feet in the direction of your choosing".
The more I write this stuff, I more I want to just do this sort of stuff in my home game. I love the options Pathfinder has, but often I wonder if they are just shiny things that are distracting from the fun we would be having if we got the rules more out of the way and spent more time playing our roles.
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Chopping down the weapon list would be great. For maximum fun, you can certainly have things like:
Dagger (knife, dirk, shiv, short sword): 1d4, Light Weapon
Sword (scimitar, rapier, falcion): 1d8
2H Sword (claymore, katana): 1d10, 2 Handed Weapon
I mean, you miss pretty much zero things that matter. Oh dear, a short sword now might do 1 point less on average. *twirls finger*.
I remember having just as much fun in games like Middle Earth Role Playing when we had a list of weapons that was pretty short. No reason to have a list of weapons that takes more than 3/4 of a page. Same with armor -- 2 light armors, 2 mediums, 1 heavy.
I favor a view that starts with a blank book and says "OK, what absolutely must be in here to call this a Pathfinder game?". Then you bring in each piece, carefully asking if it has to be there. Decide right from the start that you're going to throw out way more than you keep.
Some of this gets easier with a level cap -- you won't find BABs outracing AC options in our limited system if you never get much past 5th level.
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While I agree that simplification is a great goal the intro set absolutely must be compatible with the core game. While I agree that fewer weapons would be good you can greatly simplify the tables just by eliminating a lot of sub-par choices. Feats and skills also need to stay in. If you can't make a PFS legal character with the 'intro' game then this product is a failure from go.
As others have said:
- Minis for each character (4 total, perhaps of Iconics)
- Minis for the introductory enemies, such as goblins (1 or 2 encounters worth)
- Item cards for treasure (not a whole deck, just enough for one or two encounters)
- Flip mat for the encounter(s)
- A 'choose your own adventure' style booklet adventure/encounter, made for several individuals, not just one
- A quick summary of what each race/class does, and what they each get when they level up once.
- A custom set of "Paizo" or "Pathfinder" dice (see above)
And I do agree that this should be aimed at a younger crowd. And come in a box set for under $20, if at all possible.
You know, your list of minis alone would pretty much take it over the $20 price point at retail. And for your full list, our per-unit *manufacturing* costs would probably be way more than $20!
We'll certainly do our best to strike a balance between "high production values" and "inexpensive," and we're expecting to have slimmer margins than normal... but I think you're going to need to lower your expectations there—*losing* money on every copy sold is not part of the plan.
To get a better idea of what's actually doable in a box set, look at Kill Doctor Lucky: for $30, you get a game board, a cardboard token sheet, a handful of plastic stands, a 4-page booklet, and a deck of 96 cards. Obviously, those aren't the exact components we'd want here, but if you think about that in terms of give and take, maybe it'll help you keep suggestions within reason. (For example, a 4-page booklet obviously isn't going to cut it, so we'll need to spend more there. Maybe if we drop the cards, we can expand the first booklet and add a second... and swapping a Flip-Mat in for that hard game board would probably save some money to spend on the books... but if you want to add dice, you'll need to either take something out or raise the price... and so on.)
The Paper Mini's would make a good alternative and stay very cheap.
Hence the importance of dice - intro means the probability that this the only RPG stuff the buyer/reciever has. You don't want to force the buyer to spend X on the game and then need to buy dice too - what if they didn't know they need weird dice?I guess my point is to not sacrifice the quality that Paizo is known for in order to stuff more goodies into the box. Whenever I open my wallet to buy something that says Paizo on it, I know I am buying a product of superior craftsmanship. I'd rather see no starter set than one that contains crappy newsprint booklets and cheapo dice.That is a key point. One of the things that I will never let our guys do (and I doubt they would want to) is sacrifice quality. I'd rather have less in the product and keep what's left high quality than get more but cheaper stuff.
-Lisa
I say they can make do with CHITS! <breaks into fit of coughing>
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While I agree that simplification is a great goal the intro set absolutely must be compatible with the core game.
Well, perhaps. I really support any simplification that seamlessly removes or changes elements that:
a) You don't miss them being there; they were truly additive (I'll keep coming back to criticals as an examples)
b) Get added back in just as seamlessly once you get the Core Rules.
c) Whatever gets changed/simplified (things that we didn't drop entirely but included in some simpler form) can be explained in a conversion guide of no more than 4 pages, maximum. This is where I can accommodate rules that aren't "compatible" in the strictest sense, but where the differences aren't meaningful enough to care about.
So, you should be able to play using the intro set, and then when you move to the Core, you just get more options. Combat options we omitted before get introduced (flanking, AoOs, whatever). Spell lists get expanded. Wizard specializations get introduced. Rogue talent lists are expanded, etc.
What I'd like to see for an intro game that would be of interest both to beginning players, advanced players who would like an introductory set for beginning players, and beginning players who go on to be advanced players and don't want their original set to gather dust on the shelf (yes, that is a mouthful) is as follows:
I. A large attractive box on the order of the one used for Kill Doctor Lucky but unlike the KDL box with some useful and informative text printed on the inside of the box lid. A simplified GM's screen would be a good bet. Orient the artwork so the box lid makes a cool GM screen from the outside as well.
A. In fact, print the inside of the bottom of the box with a useful chart as well. 1st ed had a wonderful one-page guide to costs of gear and equipment. Something like this that could be handed around freely to players would be invaluable.
II. A dice set where each die is a different color and includes one unique shiny bauble, ideally a pretty oversize d20 with the Paizo golem on the 1 or 20. The rest of the dice don't have to be unique to keep cost down, but a single unique die would be nice and the d20 is the one that gets the most mileage.
III. An abbreviated 1-5 level players guide with the following:
A. 4 races: Human, Elf, Dwarf, Halfling
B. 4 classes: Barbarian, Cleric, Rogue, Sorcerer
1. The Cleric would have four domains not already printed in the Core Rules
2. The Sorcerer would have at least two but no more than four bloodlines not printed in the core rules (I'd suggest Nightmare and Dreams as two)
C. Explanations of the alignments as exemplified by five Golarion gods: Iomedae (LG), Cayden Cailean (CG), Pharasma (N), Asmodeus (LE), and Lamashtu (CE). This would give three females, two males, and no sex imbalance on any axis
D. All the 1-3 level Cleric and Sorcerer/Wizard spells. This makes the starter guide still a useful reference book to hand around at the table even once folk go on to the full game.
IV. A simplified game master's guide with an introductory adventure including monsters appearing in no other source, such that the basic set will be at least as useful as an adventure path book as a supplementary bestiary if players stick with the game.
A. The introductory adventure should ideally be a set piece that can be positioned in any world
V. A set of cardboard counters for characters and monsters. Square counters from a perforated sheet with no waste are ideal. Double-sided ideally.
VI. A grid map which corresponds to the introductory adventure but is also a useful setting for other adventures. A tavern or a campground would be good.
I say they can make do with CHITS! <breaks into fit of coughing>
That's enough chit out of you Old Man.
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As others have said:
- Minis for each character (4 total, perhaps of Iconics)
- Minis for the introductory enemies, such as goblins (1 or 2 encounters worth)
- Item cards for treasure (not a whole deck, just enough for one or two encounters)
- Flip mat for the encounter(s)
- A 'choose your own adventure' style booklet adventure/encounter, made for several individuals, not just one
- A quick summary of what each race/class does, and what they each get when they level up once.
- A custom set of "Paizo" or "Pathfinder" dice (see above)
And I do agree that this should be aimed at a younger crowd. And come in a box set for under $20, if at all possible.
You know, your list of minis alone would pretty much take it over the $20 price point at retail. And for your full list, our per-unit *manufacturing* costs would probably be way more than $20!
We'll certainly do our best to strike a balance between "high production values" and "inexpensive," and we're expecting to have slimmer margins than normal... but I think you're going to need to lower your expectations there—*losing* money on every copy sold is not part of the plan.
To get a better idea of what's actually doable in a box set, look at Kill Doctor Lucky: for $30, you get a game board, a cardboard token sheet, a handful of plastic stands, a 4-page booklet, and a deck of 96 cards. Obviously, those aren't the exact components we'd want here, but if you think about that in terms of give and take, maybe it'll help you keep suggestions within reason. (For example, a 4-page booklet obviously isn't going to cut it, so we'll need to spend more there. Maybe if we drop the cards, we can expand the first booklet and add a second... and swapping a Flip-Mat in for that hard game board would probably save some money to spend on the books... but if you want to add dice, you'll need to either take something out or raise the price... and so on.)
I think heavy cardboard character/monster tokens (maybe 2 sheets of them) with around 12-16 plastic stands would cover the minis well enough...
Perhaps N'wah could be commissioned to do the artwork or you could use pre-existing stock art from the Bestiary and Iconics....I think dice are a must, but fancy, original dice are a bit much IMO. Something nice but cheap in bulk will do.
My hope for this product is that it is more like the original D&D Basic boxed sets. A cheapy booklet for the DM which has a monster section of maybe 20 monsters, one more for the players, a small module(the cover of which could be a game mat, maybe a revamped Hollow's Last Hope or something similar), and for rules I think that stripping down the amount of options is the way to go...
Think of options that are good for levels 1-4. Strip down the feats and spells to limit the amount of things in the books, limit the classes to 4 (Cleric, wizard, fighter, rogue), simplified equipment and bare-bones magic enhancements, and for God's sake leave the current rules intact if possible. Combat maneuvers are now pretty easy to understand so you can probably leave them in.
My thinking for this type of product is one per year(or faster)until you release 3 or more if the demand is there, with the first being the 4 classes from 1st level to 4th level.
The 2nd product would expand on those classes from 5th to 8th level and maybe introduce another class from 1-8 (not a full caster though, maybe paladin, ranger, monk or barbarian) to add some more versatility to the previous set of rules. Focus on feats and spells for the old classes from 5th to 8th level, pared down from the existing options. Since equipment is mostly covered in the first set you can just add some magical options for equipment and maybe a couple of special items and a monster section with another 20 monsters for those levels of PCs to encounter.
The 3rd product would further expand on the prior classes from 9th to 12 level.....etc.
Each product could have a code in it that the consumer could use on Paizo's site to download web-enhancements for the game. Web-enhancements could be expanded monster listing, alternate class features, expanded classes, adventures, expanded equipment, etc....either for free download, or charge a small fee of $1 or $2 for a PDF. What person wouldn't pay a couple bucks(Maybe several times for different PDFs) to enhance a game they bought for $20-30 that they love playing?
I could also see the community creating a lot of extra content for this line of product....
So basically a Pathfinder Apprentice(1-4), Pathfinder Journeyman(5-8), Pathfinder Master(9-12), Pathfinder Hero(13-16) type of line.
Green Ronin's Dragon Age RPG set 1
Levels 1-5
I don't own the DA ROG solely because it's only levels 1-5. I'm not interested in buying only 1/4 of a game. I'd strongly recommend at least level 1-11, to cover Pathfinder Society play in its entirety.
For the same reason, I would strongly recommend a "stripped-down" version of the actual RPG, rather than a separate ruleset; let Basic PF characters be fully playable alongside regular PFS characters!
Selfishly, what I want in a starter is something I can toss to a new player, tell them to read and have them for the most part, run with the big dogs.
Personally, I'm a fan of the concept used for the Battletech Starter Box. A basic leaflet of pared down rules for that first exposure game. Then a standalone set of rules for when people realize that the Hunchback isn't quite the big dog it was made out to be in the demo rules - you get 24 different chassis to stomp around in and stripped down rules which mesh perfectly into the main ruleset if you want to advance beyond the box. A new player shouldn't have to worry about nitty gritty things like WIGE movement or skidding on asphalt or anti-personnel weaponry or ClanTech... instead focusing on important things like firing from partial cover and overheating and critical hits. The game gets you running BattleMech combat across basic terrain like hills, lakes, rubble and forests.
Besides this, you get a nice glossy book full of cool artwork and fiction detailing the history of the universe, how warfare is carried out, who are the movers and shakers in the universe, etc.
The idea is that everything is a nice compact playable package which gently prods players into buying more but doesn't force them to. You want to find out more about the universe? Buy a "Historical" You want more 'Mechs? Buy a "Technical Readout". You want advanced equipment? Buy the "Techmanual". You want to kick combat up a notch by adding new variables? Buy "Total Warfare".
I can see a Pathfinder box being a gateway drug in much the same way. But what Battletech has done right that Paizo should copy is that it must sell the setting. It could be a Gazetteer of Darkmoon Vale or Varisia or whatever, but it must sell Paizo's wonderful world of Golarion. Throwing a player a blank canvas, while nice is daunting to the first time player/GM. Giving them a taste of a setting rich enough to handle that while hinting at the larger world beyond is going to be crucial in hooking them on Golarion.
A player who's mucked around with the basic box should already instinctively know what's going on. He should know that those two guys are flanking, what the other guy executing a CMB check is doing, etc. He doesn't have to know obscure rules like drowning or even all the feats but he should grasp immediately the general gist of proper play. A character mucking with a basic box character should be able to sit down at the same table as a bunch of Core Book players and roll the same dice.
The idea that a guy with a box set can trundle up to a Pathfinder Society table and throw down with the best of them is brilliant. Maybe he won't have the same level of access to classes like the Paladin or Magus or Alchemist, but then, he actually has a reason to run out and get the books.
I like the idea of a 1-10 or 1-11 box set with the basic 4 classes. They might not have access to all the feats and skills, but enough of a selection to not suck will do.
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I don't own the DA ROG solely because it's only levels 1-5. I'm not interested in buying only 1/4 of a game. I'd strongly recommend at least level 1-11, to cover Pathfinder Society play in its entirety.
For the same reason, I would strongly recommend a "stripped-down" version of the actual RPG, rather than a separate ruleset; let Basic PF characters be fully playable alongside regular PFS characters!
I don't consider a game that "only" runs from levels 1-5 to be "1/4 a game." It's the same reason the old epic argument gets old to me, the game is what you make of it. There's a reason E6 exists and is played, some people consider levels 1-5 to be a game in itself.
Now that being said, you did say one thing that definitely caught my attention. The boxed set needs to be 100% compatible with PFS play. I don't know if needs to cover all the levels of play (remember, the boxed set is to introduce you to the game and get you to want to play the rest of the game, but since PFS is one of the best ways Paizo has right now to pull in new players, making the set compatible should be one of their #1 goals.
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Well, perhaps. I really support any simplification that seamlessly removes or changes elements that:
a) You don't miss them being there; they were truly additive (I'll keep coming back to criticals as an examples)
I play RPGs with children on a regular basis. They would miss the criticals if you took them out. I just asked my two boys and they would not want criticals taken out nor did they think they were overly complicated.
Kids like it when they level up and they like it when their attack does that little something extra. Its a sense of accomplishment or power, or what-have-you. I've said this elsewhere today, so I might as well say it here: Children have better memories than adults and they learn faster. A simpler game that eliminates the reason kids would want to play in the first place (or at least eliminates those parts that gets them coming back for more) is counter-productive.
I have one daughter who asks everytime she rolls a 19, with hope in her brown eyes, "is that a critical" when she is using an ax. She knows perfectly well it's not but she really, really likes it when she rolls a critical with her weapon and, I think, she's hoping I forget she needs a 20. :)
Indulge me as I repeat this once more: An intro set needs to contain a subset of material, and it needs seriously revised presentation, but it does not need to be a new rule-set.
Indulge me as I repeat this once more: An intro set needs to contain a subset of material, and it needs seriously revised presentation, but it does not need to be a new rule-set.
Quoted for Truth.
I'll keep on harping about the Battletech Introductory Box Set but seriously, as far as I'm concerned, with regards to an intro product, it may not have been the prettiest thing so far, but few have come close.
It's like getting a steak where the rest are giving you sampler platters.
They've even been nice enough to toss the Intro Rules on their webby Here.
I don't want to sound arrogant, but this is the rules quality I expect to see with a Paizo Box Set release.
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II. A dice set where each die is a different color and includes one unique shiny bauble, ideally a pretty oversize d20 with the Paizo golem on the 1 or 20. The rest of the dice don't have to be unique to keep cost down, but a single unique die would be nice and the d20 is the one that gets the most mileage.
Sadly, it doesn't work that way... they wouldn't do, say, a bunch of d4s in one place, then a bunch of d8s in another, and then mess around with uniting them in the finished product—they do a single mold for the full set of dice. (They may even do multiple sets in the same single mold.) So if you want *any* custom element on any die, you're paying a new mold charge for the full set.
I liked your box lid idea!
II. A dice set where each die is a different color and includes one unique shiny bauble, ideally a pretty oversize d20 with the Paizo golem on the 1 or 20. The rest of the dice don't have to be unique to keep cost down, but a single unique die would be nice and the d20 is the one that gets the most mileage.Sadly, it doesn't work that way... they wouldn't do, say, a bunch of d4s in one place, then a bunch of d8s in another, and then mess around with uniting them in the finished product—they do a single mold for the full set of dice. (They may even do multiple sets in the same single mold.) So if you want *any* custom element on any die, you're paying a new mold charge for the full set.
I liked your box lid idea!
Yeah, I really like the idea of the insides of the box being useful. I wonder how many ideas could be generated for that? GM screen, dungeon tiles, what else?
Of course, they also are great for dice rolling.
II. A dice set where each die is a different color and includes one unique shiny bauble, ideally a pretty oversize d20 with the Paizo golem on the 1 or 20. The rest of the dice don't have to be unique to keep cost down, but a single unique die would be nice and the d20 is the one that gets the most mileage.Sadly, it doesn't work that way... they wouldn't do, say, a bunch of d4s in one place, then a bunch of d8s in another, and then mess around with uniting them in the finished product—they do a single mold for the full set of dice. (They may even do multiple sets in the same single mold.) So if you want *any* custom element on any die, you're paying a new mold charge for the full set.
I liked your box lid idea!
Glad you did. It's one of the old-school board game details which I miss with a lot of new games.
Actually, if Kill Doctor Lucky could have the abbreviated rules inside the lid in future editions, that would be good too. I have the 1st ed and the rules sheet has already been distressed by my niece and nephew and once almost thrown away when they left it out while putting away the game.
With the shiny bauble die, you could also just make those separately and include them in a shipment as a gift-with-purchase for those who pre-order. Not mandatory, of course, but an incentive if you could find a cost effective way to do it.
A box with two small (Pathfinder Chronicle sized) books. One for the players (Player's Guide) with basic (Core Rulebook only) races, classes, equipment, and spells up through 3rd? level. And one for the DM with standard DM advice, ideas, etc., also detailing a small town (Falcon's Hallow?) and the surrounding area (Darkmoon Vale) plus the Intro adventure DO: Hallow's last Hope maybe? Of course since you can get that one for free, perhaps you could also include Crown of the Kobold King as a seperate module.
A flip mat.
A set of dice.
A white crayon to fill in the numbers on the dice (okay so I'm being nostalgic) :)
Monster tokens like what we used to get in Dungeon magazine if they wouldn't cost too much.
So to sum it up: Box, 3 small books (Pathfinder Chronicle sized) a flip mat, a set of dice and maybe some tokens.