There's a few threads on melee suckage so I thought I'd come at it from a differn't angle.
Give the Magus a whip and weapon finesse and make it a DEX instead of strength fighter.
you've now got a reach 15 weapon that can deliver your touch spells
Using spell combat trip and grease making getting up hard, or trip and flamming sphere , wall of fire, acid fog. you can use the whip to keep people where you want them inside your DOT spells.
Another intersting side point is that you need combat expertise to quailfy for improved trip.
now normally combat expertise is not that useful but consider used in tandem during spell combat. In a situation where you need a high AC to survive in combat. turn on combat expertise your whip attacks are going to miss but your armor +shield spell +high DEX+ combat expertise dodge bonus is going to give you a solid AC when you need it.
allowing you to survive in melee to fire off your spells.
in particular being in the frontline to fire off cone AOE spells is advantagoues since enemies tend to cluster on the front line but often your fighters are in the way of using such spells when your behind them.
Dont forget the feats Fury's Fall and Fury's Snare! Perfect for this type of build.
Aaaaand, Enlarge Person, even with the dex penalty, would be great for even more reachtasticnicitity.
with a high Dex that would offset the enlargement although you'd only go large if your trying to trip a huge monster.
although large whip is what reach 30 ? *shudders*
bag of whips to leave entangled foe's in your wake although you'd need a way to improve that DC10 stength check to break out maybe a stronger matieral whip ?
with the bonded weapon enchantment you'll probably be able to get a decent CMB bonus to trip things.
with the bonded weapon enchantment you'll probably be able to get a decent CMB bonus to trip things.
...with the maneuver mastery arcana, anyway.
So, somebody build this thing and playtest it already!
Just a minor point to add. Don't forget that Spellstrike does not require either the attack or the spell to deal damage for it to be successful. Use that nice little Non-lethal 15' reach weapon to apply Bull's Strength or Cat's Grace to the rest of the party.
Think of it now, a Magus in full leather armor using whips and chains to buff his allies and harm his enemies...
That was actually - and hilariously - common in the old Duskblade. Cast a buff or heal on your weapon, then make a full attack with your glaive.
"I'm stabbing you with HEALING!"
Here is my attempt at making a Whip Magus, which is open for critiques. It's level 10 since that's the level I'd throw at my players right now.
Elf Magus 10
Str 12
Dex 20 (16+2+2)
Con 12 (14-2)
Int 22 (14+2+1+1+4)
Wis 8
Cha 10Traits
Heirloom Weapon (Whip)
Focused MindFeats
1 Weapon Finesse
3 Combat Expertise
5 Improved Trip
5b Agile Maneuvers
7 Enforcer
9 Greater TripMagus Arcana:
Maneuver Mastery (Trip), Concentrate, Hasted AssaultSpells:
0 - (You can see the list)
1 - Burning Hands, Color Spray, Enlarge Person, Flare Burst, Grease, Hydraulic Push, Magic Missile, Shield, Shocking Grasp, True Strike
2 - Blur, Flaming Sphere, Glitterdust, Mirror Image, Scorching Ray, Web
3 - Fireball, Fly, Haste, Lightning Bolt, Greater Magic Weapon, Slow
4 - Black Tentacles, Wall of Fire
Gear: +1 Spell Storing Whip, +3 Mithral Breastplate, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Belt of Incredible Dexterity +2, Cloak of Resistance +2, Headband of Vast Intelligence +4, Ring of Counterspells (Dispel Magic), Ring of Protection +2, Wand of Shocking Grasp
I didn't include skills, but I'd have ranks in Intimidate, Knowledge (Arcana), Perception, Sense Motive, Spellcraft and Use Magic Device. Built using PFRPG and APG, as I don't have access to other Pathfinder resources.
Just a minor point to add. Don't forget that Spellstrike does not require either the attack or the spell to deal damage for it to be successful. Use that nice little Non-lethal 15' reach weapon to apply Bull's Strength or Cat's Grace to the rest of the party.
Think of it now, a Magus in full leather armor using whips and chains to buff his allies and harm his enemies...
That was actually - and hilariously - common in the old Duskblade. Cast a buff or heal on your weapon, then make a full attack with your glaive.
"I'm stabbing you with HEALING!"
Oh yes baby whip me with your bulls strength feels sooo guuudd XD
Here is my attempt at making a Whip Magus, which is open for critiques. It's level 10 since that's the level I'd throw at my players right now.
I didn't include skills, but I'd have ranks in Intimidate, Knowledge (Arcana), Perception, Sense Motive, Spellcraft and Use Magic Device. Built using PFRPG and APG, as I don't have access to other Pathfinder resources.Elf Magus 10
Str 12
Dex 20 (16+2+2)
Con 12 (14-2)
Int 22 (14+2+1+1+4)
Wis 8
Cha 10Traits
Heirloom Weapon (Whip)
Focused MindFeats
1 Weapon Finesse
3 Combat Expertise
5 Improved Trip
5b Agile Maneuvers
7 Enforcer
9 Greater TripMagus Arcana:
Maneuver Mastery (Trip), Concentrate, Hasted AssaultSpells:
0 - (You can see the list)
1 - Burning Hands, Color Spray, Enlarge Person, Flare Burst, Grease, Hydraulic Push, Magic Missile, Shield, Shocking Grasp, True Strike
2 - Blur, Flaming Sphere, Glitterdust, Mirror Image, Scorching Ray, Web
3 - Fireball, Fly, Haste, Lightning Bolt, Greater Magic Weapon, Slow
4 - Black Tentacles, Wall of Fire
Gear: +1 Spell Storing Whip, +3 Mithral Breastplate, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Belt of Incredible Dexterity +2, Cloak of Resistance +2, Headband of Vast Intelligence +4, Ring of Counterspells (Dispel Magic), Ring of Protection +2, Wand of Shocking Grasp
AC29 base aint bad
shield spell takes that to AC33
certainly would survive if caught in melee for a few rounds, although with a whip you don't need to be within their threat range to attack them which is a plus. also means less chance of being full attacked which also improves your survivability further
I recon I could have alot of fun with that build
I guess it would make sense to post stuff like AC, attack bonus and concentration bonus, wouldn't it?
For the elf magus above:
AC 27, touch 17, ff 22 (+9 armor, +5 dex, +2 deflection, +1 natural)
Attack Bonus: +13/+8 for normal attacks
Spell Combat AB: +11/+6
CMB (for trips): +20 (+18/+13 when used in Spell Combat)
Concentration: +16
The bestiary states that the average AC for a CR10 monster is 24, so the magus has a 45% chance of hitting with his first attack and a 20% chance on his second attack in a normal routine. If using Spell Combat, the magus has a 35% and 10% chance, respectively, and a 65% chance of casting a 4th level spell (with a 10% increased chance for each spell level lower).
However, the likely tactic that this magus will be using will be to trade the normal iterative attacks for trip attempts, especially when using Spell Combat. If the first trip attempt succeeds and no other enemy is with range, the second attack will be used to deal non-lethal damage from the whip in order to get a free Demoralize attempt on the target.
The magus' Arcane Bond will likely be used to add a +1 bonus (to improve the whip to a +2) and either an elemental damage or another +1 (taking it to a +3).
Self buffing with Enlarge Person (to increase whip range) and Shield before battle, which gives the whip a 30 foot inclusive reach (and the ability to cast melee touch spells at 10 feet) and an adjusted AC of 29/15/24.
Don't forget that buffing your trip attempts with truestrike makes it very unlikely you will fail. +40 to trip attempts is nasty.
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| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Self buffing with Enlarge Person (to increase whip range) and Shield before battle, which gives the whip a 30 foot inclusive reach...
Sorry to derail this thread but why would Enlarge Person double the reach of the whip? The enlarge effectively changes a medium whip to a large ship. The spell description states it'll increase your normal reach to 10ft, but I find nothing that indicates the length of the whip doubles from medium to large. It would seem that your reach would only increase to 20ft. Also, reversing that logic, wouldn't a small whip have it's reach halved, from 15ft to 7.5ft(rounding down by raw), reducing it to only 5ft?
I just had to thank you for this wonderful build and idea.
Till know I couldn't really identify with the magus, but now I know that he is Leather-gear freak with whip and corselet.
No, honestly thanks.
Self buffing with Enlarge Person (to increase whip range) and Shield before battle, which gives the whip a 30 foot inclusive reach...Sorry to derail this thread but why would Enlarge Person double the reach of the whip? The enlarge effectively changes a medium whip to a large ship. The spell description states it'll increase your normal reach to 10ft, but I find nothing that indicates the length of the whip doubles from medium to large. It would seem that your reach would only increase to 20ft. Also, reversing that logic, wouldn't a small whip have it's reach halved, from 15ft to 7.5ft(rounding down by raw), reducing it to only 5ft?
Small and medium whips are defined to have a reach of 15 feet. I think a large whips are defined as having a reach of 30 feet, but I am not sure where that info is.
| 5 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Enlarge Person doubles your Natural Reach.
Read the Reach Weapon section, it talks about `most Reach weapons` having double your Natural Reach.
Now Whips have LARGER Reach than `normal` Reach Weapons (15` vs. 10´ for Medium).
The rules don`t actually say so explicitly, but IT WOULD SEEM that the assumption is that ALL reach weapons function as multipliers of natural reach (and that the whip is thus at x3 natural reach). Either that is true, or all whips no matter the size have 15` reach (i.e. it`s static since there is no `scaling` wording apart from that used for `normal` reach weapons with 2x natural reach). Take your pick.
Obviously, Paizo did a bad job (likely, just carried over 3.5`s wording) of separating the `general rule` (multiplier of reach) from the `common` case of doubled reach vs. un-common cases (the multiplier wording should apply to ALL reach weapon, only the 2x part specifically should be associated with the common cases, i.e. allowing the multiplier paradigm to apply to all reach weapons)
This probably can be reported as Errata.
/threadjack
I posted this in another thread here,
but I brought up the issue of Whips (and other 1-handed reach weapons) allowing the Magus to potentially avoid Combat Casting issues by avoiding being in the enemy`s threat area in the first place. I`m not sure if by the current playtest RAW a Concentration check would still be called for, but as it`s a playtest the RAW is liable to change, and in any case avoiding being in enemy threat area is a good idea to begin with (plus avoids Concentration penalties from enemy abilties such as Disruptive).
Also remeber you can disarm with a whip. True strike + disarm could potentially take a Big baddie out of a fight when he loses his uber weapon of PC-slaying.
here's a min maxed whip magus
Probably a bad idea but here goes nothin
Level 5 Magus
Elf
STR10 DEX18(+1) CON10 INT20 WIS8 CHA7
Combat Casting
Exotic Weapon Prof Whip
Weapon Finesse
Combat Expertise
Trait +2 conc bonus
Concentration Bonus +5 +4 +2 +5 = +16
Stuff +2 Scorpion Whip, +1 Chain Shirt
Attacks BAB+3
Scorpion Whip +2 +3 +4 = +9 1d4+2dmg
AC +5 armor, +4 Dex , +4 shield spell = AC23
Spells
Cantrips Acid Splash, Ray of Frost, Daze, Flare
6x Level 1 Shocking Grasp (5d6)
3x Level 2 Acid Arrow, Elemental Touch
DC's to cast
cantrips DC17 = 100%
level 1 DC19 = 90%
level 2 DC21 = 80%
Spell Combat attack Roll
Scorpion Whip +5 1d4+2 and acid orb or forst ray attk +7 vs touch 1d3 dmg
Scorpion Whip +5 1d4+2+5d6shocking
or
Scorpion Whip +5 1d4+2+1d6elemental touch (if spellstrike applies to elemental touch)
or
swap shockings for magic missiles
Scorpion Whip +5 1d4+2 + 3d4+3 MM
Assuming you being smart and going after minions first leaving the higher AC critters for real fighters vs AC16-18
So
Using cantrips basically won't fail do at least 1d3 acid or frost dmg each round +7 vs touch AC10-12
Scorpion whip should hit 50% of the time
Should be able to apply shocking grasp to whip 90% of the time
Avg damage
Whip + cantrip = minimum 2dmg, average 4.25dmg/round
Whip + Shocking = avg 11 damage per round ( an actual hit will do avg 22dmg but you only hit 50% of the time)
Whip + Magic Missle = avg 9.75dmg per round
and if using Magic Missle or Acid Arrow also use combat expertise and grab an extra +1 AC while you doing it for AC24 for 5% less chance to hit with whip and do 1d4+2 dmg.
basic strategy is to stay 10-15feet away from the front line and harass or swap out shocking and MM for burning hands and get on the front line using combat expertise and spam cone's of 5d4 fire DC 16 ref half
next 2 feats would be improved trip and greater trip and then attacks are then used for tripping instead of damage and enlarge person is used when you need to trip something bigger than Large.
damage is nothing to write home about but at least your contributing in the early levels and get to play with your spell combat from pretty early on.
I had some thoughts on improving my magus build. First, I've brought his level up to 11 (from 10) which gives me an extra feat and such. It also gives me some bonus money for new gear. Here is the new build.
WHIP MAGUS CR 10
Male Elf Magus 11
LE Medium Humanoid (Elf)
Init +5; Senses Low-Light Vision; Perception +13
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DEFENSE
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AC 25, touch 17, flat-footed 20 (+8 armor, +5 Dex, +2 deflection)
hp 80 (11d8+11)
Fort +11, Ref +11, Will +10
Immune sleep; Resist Elven Immunities
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OFFENSE
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Spd 30 ft.
Melee +1 Shock Whip +10/+5 (1d3+2/20/x2) and
+1 Shock Whip +10 (1d3+1/20/x2)
Special Attacks Spellstrike
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STATISTICS
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Str 12, Dex 20, Con 12, Int 22, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +8; CMB +13 (+15 Disarm, +18 Repositioning, +18 Tripping); CMD 26 (29 vs. Disarm, 29 vs. Reposition, 29 vs. Trip)
Feats Combat Expertise +/-3, Agile Maneuvers, Exotic Weapon Proficiency Whip, Improved Disarm, Improved Reposition, Improved Trip, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse
Traits Focused Mind
Skills Acrobatics +15, Escape Artist +4, Fly +4, Intimidate +13, Knowledge: Arcana +20, Knowledge: Local +17, Perception +13, Ride +4, Sense Motive +11, Spellcraft +20, Stealth +4, Swim +0, Use Magic Device +13
Languages Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Goblin, Infernal, Orc
SQ Arcane Familiar Nearby, Arcane Weapon +2: +1 Shock Whip (Su), Deliver Touch Spells Through Familiar (Su), Elven Magic, Empathic Link with Familiar (Su), Improved Spell Combat (-2/+0) (Ex), Ring of Forcefangs, Share Spells with Familiar, Speak with Animals (Ex), Speak With Familiar (Ex)
Combat Gear +1 Shock Whip, +1 Shock Whip, +2 Unrighteous Mithral Agile Breastplate; Other Gear Belt of Incredible Dexterity +4, Cloak of Resistance +3, Glove of Storing, Headband of Vast Intelligence +4: Acrobatics, Sense Motive, Ring of Forcefangs, Ring of Protection +2
With the two weapon fighting feat and glove of storing, his basic tactic would be to use Spell Combat to cast a spell (whichever is the most appropriate to the situation) then, as a free action take one of the whips from his glove and then full attacks, exchanging damaging attacks for disarms, repositions and trips (in that order). He would then re-store the whip in his glove. This leaves his opponent weaponless, in position to be attacked and prone (provoking an AoO for being tripped).
Attack bonuses: +12/+10/+7
AB when using Spell Combat: +16/+17/+14 (disarm/reposition/trip)
Concentration: +17
The second maneuver bonus assumes that you can add weapon bonuses to the Reposition maneuver. I couldn't confirm this, but it seemed reasonable (at least for the whip) so I did. It would be a +16 otherwise.
Tactics would otherwise remain basically the same.
Combat Gear +1 Shock Whip, +1 Shock Whip, +2 Unrighteous Mithral Agile Breastplate; Other Gear Belt of Incredible Dexterity +4, Cloak of Resistance +3
Is there a particular reason you have two +1 Shock whips? Wouldn't it make more sense to vary the damage type?
Combat Gear +1 Shock Whip, +1 Shock Whip, +2 Unrighteous Mithral Agile Breastplate; Other Gear Belt of Incredible Dexterity +4, Cloak of Resistance +3Is there a particular reason you have two +1 Shock whips? Wouldn't it make more sense to vary the damage type?
Yes it would, but I just watched Iron Man 2 and I sort of had Vanko on the brain. Switching the energy type to something else on one would make a lot of sense.
So I've been mucking about with making a whip magus and decided that I wanted him to have a viable alterantive if he's forced into close quarters combat. To that end I was going to give him a longsword to pack around (yes I know scimitar would be a mechanicly better choice). That's when I came up against the wall that if you want to make use of the arcane weapon ability then you really can't varry your weaponry on account of the whole casting without bonded weapon in hand forces yet another concentration check thing. That changes spell combat from a bit of a dicey gamble to an unaceptable level of risk. So now i see the following options.
- Use arcane weapon on the whip, get the ranged combat manouvers w/spell combat but lose spell combat if I'm forced into melee.
- Use arcane weapon on the longsword, maintain spell combat in melee but loose it on the ranged combat manouvers which was pretty much the point of the character
or
- forgo the use of arcane weapon, maintain both my melee and ranged spell combat options but fail to make use of a pretty soild part of my class including the level 19 kicker.
Now perhaps this is an issue and perhaps it isn't. I'm sure some would call it a balanced trade off for the versatility. But it makes me sad and either way I wanted to ensure the designers were aware of it so they could decide for themselves.
Thanks for your time
Torger
If you are backed into a corner and can't attack with your whip and have to resort to your longsword backup weapon, a series of very bad things has happened and it ought to be difficult for you.
It means that you are literally backed into a corner and can't 5-foot step somewhere slightly more safe to cast and attack. It also means that your hit points and AC are low enough that risking a single AoO to disarm, reposition and then trip your opponent followed with your favorite combat spell could kill you. Also, your opponent would need to be in a similar situation such that drawing a weapon and attacking will kill it and take you out of peril. Further it means that you are relying on using Spell Combat even when it's not optimal to do so.
If you are ever stuck in with the first three situations, you just don't use Spell Combat. You either draw your backup weapon and attack (saving you and killing it), or you find some way to get the heck out of Dodge. Incidentally, this is why my whip magus invested in Acrobatics. So he could dodge his way the heck out of Dodge, as it were.
I likes my contingencies and I've seen backed into a corner happen a solid number of times.
Like I said perhaps it's an issue and perhaps it's not. If the RAW on this one stays the way is (and I suspect it will) then my backed into a corner plan will likely be two handing my sword and forgoing spell combat. It's not a huge concern. No biggie. Just something I wanted to at least be brought up.
Mostly it's always been a bit of a pet peeve of mine when a class gets pigeon holed into using one specific weapon all the time. Versatility is fun.
I know, I know if I want versatility I should go play a bard right :P
Torger
Your backup weapon is as always Spiked Armor or a Spiked Gauntlet. Both items allow you to hold your Arcane Weapon whip (scorpion) to avoid the stiff concentration check and still use Spell Combat. If at that point you can't use something like Hydraulic Push to clear your immediate area then you really are in trouble. Remember with Spell Combat you cast before or after your full attack, so Hydraulic Push or use another specifically chosen "get my ass out of here" spell to put some space between you and your foe. Hopefully UM will include some kind of lower level limited range teleport spell.
Magus benefits, like the Wizard, benefits from the 5Ps and advanced intel.
Also keep in mind that keeping two weapons is typical on most characters and that you are only *stuck* with an Arcane Weapon on the whip for the day. If your magus anticipates much more tight quarters combat in a day, then prepare Arcane Weapon with a close in melee weapon for that day.
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Coming in late here...
The ability to use a whip disarm attack and a Mage Hand cantrip in the same round is a lovely trick, and is a tactic your Magus can do all day long. The closest most people can get to this is having an Unseen Servant hovering around, ready to toss aside the weapons you remove from your opponent's hands.
I'd definitly give the Magus class proficiency with a whip as a base ability (like a Bard), otherwise you're waiting until level 3 to have both the required BAB and a spare Feat to pick up the Exotic Weapon Proficiency and, to my mind, the whip Magus is going to be a popular build (as it optimises the ability to deliver touch spells via a weapon).
