or how bout this.
Spell storing: At first level a magus may store one spell level worth of spells in her weapon. With a successful melee attack she may discharge one spell from her weapon. Each level of magus increases the the amount of spell levels she may store by one.these spells must be placed within the weapon during the time a magus memorizes her spells. 0 level spells count for 1/2 a spell level.
Let's not forger that if the critical threat range of the spell is indeed increased to that of the weapon, spellstrike is actually VERY deadly. Imagine a keen scimitar used to deliver spellstrike. You're looking at alot of critical spells there-and each critical is essentially like an extra quickened spell for free.
i am really not seeing the problem with spellstrike. it use is for burst damage. at fifth level you can add a 5d6 shocking grasp most of the time with spell combat. that uses up 1 first level spell. at 10 you can intensify it for 10d6 from a second level spell. add empowered arcana and thats a lot of damage there, with your weapon damage.I understand where you are coming from, but people will bring up things like economy of actions or lack of touch spells or somesuch counterargument.
of course most of the bias towards the magus is subjective bias rather than objective bias. In other words, even if the class functions perfectly people will find fault with it, either because they believe it is too powerful, not powerful enough or simply not how they envision an arcane melee caster (everything from I want a spontaneous arcane melee caster to I want to be able to rule the cosmos with my unstoppable gishnaut!)
It is important to note that that's something you can do without spell strike, period. The only thing spell strike lets you do is delay the casting of the spell to the next round so you can attack and do it simultaneously. Note, it would be exactly the same as if you cast the spell, then attacked in the next round. Same net damage, except you don't spend an action doing nothing. You could just as easily do the exact same thing if you decided to cast a touch spell into a spellstoring weapon mid combat. Which casting into spellstoring wouldn't limit you to touch spells and has an indefinite duration. I realize that you get this at level 1, before one can afford a spellstoring weapon, but it's still not worth it compared to other defining class abilities that you gain early on.
Let's not forger that if the critical threat range of the spell is indeed increased to that of the weapon, spellstrike is actually VERY deadly. Imagine a keen scimitar used to deliver spellstrike.
No, it's not very deadly. Try playing it.
Str 18 and +4 BAB, at 6th level, my magus is hitting with the free touch attack on my spell 90% of the time (1d20+8 vs a touch AC of 10). I crit with the spell 4.5% of the time (5% of a 20, 90% chance to confirm). Damage output with the spell is 16.5375 damage on average, and pretty reliable.
Now, I try a Spellstrike. Using Arcane Weapon to make my +1 scimitar keen, I'm hitting 60% of the time (1d20+9 vs AC 18). I'm critting with the spell 18% of the time (30% for a 15-20, 60% to confirm). Damage output with the spell is 13.65 damage on average, and very swingy.
It's even worse if I'm doing Spell Combat to cast the spell and attack at the same time, I think. As best I can tell, in Spell Combat, I get to make my free touch attack at full BAB anyway. After all, it's free with the spell, and not specifically penalized by Spell Combat. On the other hand, if I try to deliver the spell with Spellstrike, I get to make the weapon melee attack at -4. So it's 40% chance of hit, 12% chance of crit.
But, really, go play it. "I crit with a spell on 15-20" sounds good, but "I make an attack on touch AC, not standard AC" is better.
The base classes are a little more complex than the core classes, but the good ones have a simple mechanic at their core that is easily grasped.
Flip to the Alchemist table in the APG and you see "bomb 1d6" and "mutagen" at first level. Bomb is self-explanatory, and you can scan "mutagen" and see that it's a buff. Likewise Challenge and Mount (heh) with the Cavalier, Judgment for the Inquisitor, Create a Pet for Summoner, Hex for Witch.
So you're a newish or casual player and you pick up Ultimate Magic and the Magus is right up front. You see Spellstrike and that sounds cool, so you read the description and it turns out that it's two standard actions to deliver a touch spell with a weapon. Underwhelming. So what's Spell Combat about? Weapon in one hand, spell in the other. So far so good. But you keep reading and it's -4 this and -2 that and make a concentration check, etc. None of that sounds fun for a non-rules-junkie. And trying to fix Spellstrike with "lose energy-type spell x of level y for + zd6 damage doesn't help much either.
Give the Magus a simple mechanic at its core to hang it's Wizard hat (or helm) on. Let's call it Magus Strike for lack of a better name. 3 times a day + your INT modifier, your melee attack does 1d6 extra magical damage. This damage increases by 1d6 every odd level. At every even level you add one element type of your choice to the kinds of magical damage that Magus Strike can inflict.
1st Magus strike (1d6)
2nd First element
3rd Magus strike (2d6)
4th Second element... etc.So Hrori Half-Ulfen, a Magus from the Land of the Linnorn Kings takes Frost as his first element choice, which is great while travelling in Golarion. But in his homeland a lot of creatures have cold resistance, so at level 4 he takes Flame as his second element. Now he can choose between using frost, flame, or just plain magical damage with his melee attacks 3+INT mod a day.
Seems like this would be a lot more attractive to a player who is wavering between Pathfinder and...
I don´t like this mechanic. The original ability seems more appealing to me. Especcially spell combat is more than just a "damage increase". You can attack AND buff yourself at the same time with a shield spell... for example. Your mechanic sounds like a solution a 4th edition designer would come up with. It doesn´t make this class special! It makes it more homogenous with others (like rogues)... Most people would read "Ah... another 1d6 damage per 2 level power. And I didn´t even have to flank... just using my daily allotment. Goodby teamplay"
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@Patrick
Yeah, it's a little simplistic, but a simpler mechanic at the core of it is what's needed.
Spellstrike as is seems highly circumstantial to me. It's two rounds of activity to pull off what usually takes... two rounds of activity. And Spell Combat isn't very attractive at this point either.
You can make some kind of esoteric, feat-taxed, trait-taxed class that does new and exciting things poorly, or you can make something simpler and run the risk of being like something out of 4e as you say. That's the fix they've put themselves in, though, having decided to create this class.
Hopefully there is a place in the middle. .
I'm reading many of these suggestions and just beating my head against the walls.
Against. The. Walls!
Spellstrike needs only ONE change! You need to be able to make the attack in the same round you cast the spell.
That's it! It's how I'm about to playtest it, there are plenty of touch spells in all of 3.X to run this against. It's the class defining ability until 8th level (when spell combat actually matters) and it isn't broken.
Also, it should be ruled that spells crit on a 20. You rolled an 18 with your Shocking Grasp charged rapier? Great! Roll again to confirm for your rapier. Now, if you rolled a nat 20, you could roll to confirm for both the weapon and spell. This, however, is only a suggestion.
For the love of Gygax people, keep it simple, please.
or how bout this.
Spell storing: At first level a magus may store one spell level worth of spells in her weapon. With a successful melee attack she may discharge one spell from her weapon. Each level of magus increases the the amount of spell levels she may store by one.these spells must be placed within the weapon during the time a magus memorizes her spells. 0 level spells count for 1/2 a spell level.
Am I the only one to notice or be bothered by the fact that two of the major class features for the Magus are things that can be replicated with gold? Weapon enhancements. Spellstrike and Arcane Weapon are not so outstanding. I would like to see those abilities replaced entirely, if possible. Nevermind that a spellstoring weapon isn't something for a 1st level character to have normally, it just isn't as impressive as a class feature, like Rage or Sneak Attack.
Am I the only one to notice or be bothered by the fact that two of the major class features for the Magus are things that can be replicated with gold? Weapon enhancements. Spellstrike and Arcane Weapon are not so outstanding. I would like to see those abilities replaced entirely, if possible. Nevermind that a spellstoring weapon isn't something for a 1st level character to have normally, it just isn't as impressive as a class feature, like Rage or Sneak Attack.or how bout this.
Spell storing: At first level a magus may store one spell level worth of spells in her weapon. With a successful melee attack she may discharge one spell from her weapon. Each level of magus increases the the amount of spell levels she may store by one.these spells must be placed within the weapon during the time a magus memorizes her spells. 0 level spells count for 1/2 a spell level.
Lol, you're kind of missing the fact that many class abilities can be replicated through, including Rage. Magus thus far is unique in what it can do, it just can't do it very well, , , yet. Once a few feats, arcana's and touch spells arrive with Ultimate Magic I'm sure the class will round out nicely.
Lol, you're kind of missing the fact that many class abilities can be replicated through, including Rage. Magus thus far is unique in what it can do, it just can't do it very well, , , yet. Once a few feats, arcana's and touch spells arrive with Ultimate Magic I'm sure the class will round out nicely.
Each affected creature gains a +2 morale bonus to Strength and Constitution, a +1 morale bonus on Will saves, and a –2 penalty to AC. The effect is otherwise identical with a barbarian's rage except that the subjects aren't fatigued at the end of the rage.
That is similar to the barbarian's rage, but it is not the same. Sneak attack isn't something I can't think of any way to replicate with magic, nor is Nature's Bond something that can be given to any character. Just because you take ranks in Perform doesn't give you Bardic Music.
On top of all that, it provides no immediate advantage while *in* combat. It requires 2 standard actions or the use of Spell Combat, which is not efficient at all in my mind, in fact, far less so than the use of Rage (a free action) or the paladin's smite (a swift action).
The ability needs to be more immediate and more useful to take up a class feature slot. Spell Combat is good, mostly, but Spellstrike is not. I think Spell Combat could come first and make the class less wonky.
That is similar to the barbarian's rage, but it is not the same. Sneak attack isn't something I can't think of any way to replicate with magic, nor is Nature's Bond something that can be given to any character. Just because you take ranks in Perform doesn't give you Bardic Music.On top of all that, it provides no immediate advantage while *in* combat. It requires 2 standard actions or the use of Spell Combat, which is not efficient at all in my mind, in fact, far less so than the use of Rage (a free action) or the paladin's smite (a swift action).
The ability needs to be more immediate and more useful to take up a class feature slot. Spell Combat is good, mostly, but Spellstrike is not. I think Spell Combat could come first and make the class less wonky.
"sigh"
We're actually saying the same thing. Spellstrike as written is rather useless. Paizo pre-nerfed it by stating you couldn't attack with it in the same round. I've already stated earlier that the ability needs to be, a standard action, cast a touch spell, attack with melee weapon to deliver it. Done. Now it isn't just a crappy version of spell storing.
Now it isn't just a crappy version of spell storing.
In my mind, that doesn't fix the fact that you're using what would otherwise be a touch attack as part of a weapon attack instead. It's still like spell-storing the way you have it tweaked, only you're trading the ability to cast ANY targeted spell (up to 3rd level, which still opens more options as of right now) for the ability to do it as a free action.
My argument is not one or the other.
I feel that Spell Combat should be the first level class ability. Spellstrike should be removed and Spell-Storing should be an ability that can be imbued via Arcane Weapon, or as a Magus Arcana. Spellstrike feels like it is trying to be Arcane Channeling (via Duskblade). (For the record, I am not a fan of the Duskblade class, but nor am I a detractor. Just making the comparison.)
Duskblade aside, this ability is not something I think this class needs to function and I would rather see it dropped entirely and replaced with something else. Spell Combat at 1st level, Combat Casting as a bonus feat at 2nd level, and I think the class would be better off for it. Spell combat is the Magus's signature ability and should be from level 1.
Now it isn't just a crappy version of spell storing.Spellstrike feels like it is trying to be Arcane Channeling (via Duskblade). (For the record, I am not a fan of the Duskblade class, but nor am I a detractor. Just making the comparison.)
Duskblade filled, or attempted to fill, the exact same niche that magus is attempting to fill. Spellstrike SHOULD be Arcane Channeling, just don't make it broken by allowing the magus to full attack while dual wielding all for one spell slot like the duskblade coould and bam. Single weapon, and every spell channeled still costs a spell slot. Problem solved.
Duskblade filled, or attempted to fill, the exact same niche that magus is attempting to fill.
I think that is partially correct. I do not think that Paizo wants them to be flavored the same. I actually feel a bit of Warmage influence in the Magus as well. Spell Combat certainly isn't something I've seen before, and it is expounded on further, while Spellstrike is not, hence why I don't believe it is as important.
Spellstrike SHOULD be Arcane Channeling, just don't make it broken by allowing the magus to full attack while dual wielding all for one spell slot like the duskblade coould and bam. Single weapon, and every spell channeled still costs a spell slot. Problem solved.
If the ability is kept at all, then it SHOULD be more like Arcane Channeling, but I don't think it is necessary. Bear in mind as well that even expending multiple spells as part of a full round attack (one spell per each iterative attack) is still bad action economy, only this time, you're opening up spell combos. The class has prepared spells, not spontaneous. Were they spontaneous, it would be easy to say that each attack could expend a spell slot to add the effects of a single spell to the attack, however, as a prepared caster, those slots have to be filled in advance.
Allowing multiple spells to be cast in a round as part of a full attack action could be disastrous in ways that I can't imagine with my relatively short experience in the game. It doesn't take a game developer to realize that, though.
Allowing multiple spells to be cast in a round as part of a full attack action could be disastrous in ways that I can't imagine with my relatively short experience in the game. It doesn't take a game developer to realize that, though.
COULD be is the key there. I keep going back to this because I feel like that's the fear here, that this will become like the duskblade channeling vampiric touch into two weapons with full bab and the full twf tree for massive amounts of damage for the cost of only a single spell slot. But we're talking about a 3/4 bab class with 1 weapon channeling touch spells while expending a spell slot for every channeled spell. And I would only allow the full attack portion to be accessible at higher levels. I will agree with you that the mechanic and flavor would be awkward since it's a prepared caster (Which i'm not a big fan of in the first place, and I think the magus should have been spontaneous). I really enjoy the idea of spellstrike in flavor. I'd rather not see it scrapped. And it feels like a revised arcane channeling would do the job.
The only time I ever see Spellstrike coming into play is with a reach weapon.
And of course the Magus can't use his main ability when using a two handed weapon, and I'm not sure if you can combine Lunge with Spellstrike.
In other words, your only option is the whip. A weapon the Magus doesn't have proficiency with.
What went into designing this?
Oh, and lunge should work with spell strike, or even with a normal touch attack. The problem is you can't get it till 8th level when your BAB reachs +6.
This is why fighters do have nice things. (I know, and paladins and rangers ...)
That is similar to the barbarian's rage, but it is not the same. Sneak attack isn't something I can't think of any way to replicate with magic, nor is Nature's Bond something that can be given to any character. Just because you take ranks in Perform doesn't give you Bardic Music.On top of all that, it provides no immediate advantage while *in* combat. It requires 2 standard actions or the use of Spell Combat, which is not efficient at all in my mind, in fact, far less so than the use of Rage (a free action) or the paladin's smite (a swift action).
The ability needs to be more immediate and more useful to take up a class feature slot. Spell Combat is good, mostly, but Spellstrike is not. I think Spell Combat could come first and make the class less wonky.
"sigh"
We're actually saying the same thing. Spellstrike as written is rather useless. Paizo pre-nerfed it by stating you couldn't attack with it in the same round. I've already stated earlier that the ability needs to be, a standard action, cast a touch spell, attack with melee weapon to deliver it. Done. Now it isn't just a crappy version of spell storing.
I totally agree with you, as a standard action it would work.I guess we will see how it ends up.
I'm reading many of these suggestions and just beating my head against the walls.
Against. The. Walls!
Spellstrike needs only ONE change! You need to be able to make the attack in the same round you cast the spell.
That's it! It's how I'm about to playtest it, there are plenty of touch spells in all of 3.X to run this against. It's the class defining ability until 8th level (when spell combat actually matters) and it isn't broken.
Also, it should be ruled that spells crit on a 20. You rolled an 18 with your Shocking Grasp charged rapier? Great! Roll again to confirm for your rapier. Now, if you rolled a nat 20, you could roll to confirm for both the weapon and spell. This, however, is only a suggestion.
For the love of Gygax people, keep it simple, please.
YES please, lets face facts here do we really want every Magus runnung arround with a high threat weapon? It´s ok if its a good option, but it should not be the only option.
Yeah, the whole "critical with spell on weapon's threat range" is a concern of mine as well. I can understand that vs. touch AC might be better, but when you can use a spell storing weapon AND spellstrike in one round to deliver two intensified empowered shocking grasps, that's a high critical chance on 20d6 that get 50% increased damage (probably only on the original 10d6, but still). If it had a damage die progression, you wouldn't have to worry about a lucky hit from the Magus one-shotting your BBEG, which makes for a boring encounter all around.
Spellstrike needs only ONE change! You need to be able to make the attack in the same round you cast the spell.
I agree with this statement if Spellstrike is to be kept.
I would still prefer to see it at 2nd or 3rd (or 4th, or 5th) level though, and instead place Spell Combat at 1st level with reduced penalties. Combat Casting should be a bonus feat within the first 4 levels, or at least an Arcana.
Pardon me if this has already been answered/clarified, but is the Spellstrike ability an either/or action?
Meaning, 1st lvl magus announces spellstrike with shocking grasp:
1. Attacks with free touch attack, misses, on next round attacks with sword and channels spell.
2. Attacks with free touch attack, misses, is now locked into holding charge in hand, can't channel with sword.
3. Doesn't attack with spell, channels with sword, misses, is now locked into channeling with sword.
Also,
4. Can the Magus hold the charge in his weapon the same way it can held normally, i.e. for a very long time?
5. If a Magus cast a touch spell normally, holds it for a while, can he transfer it to his sword via spellstrike at a later time?
Spell strike DOES NOT hold the spell in the weapon.It allows a held touch attack to be delivered via the weapon's attack.
Much like an unarmed strike or natural weapon can be used to deliver a held touch attack, spell strike allows a held touch attack to be delivered via weapon.
-James
Yes, I get that. But is the spell lost on a missed attack with the weapon? Or can the Magus continue to attack with the sword until he/she/it gets a hit, even if this is several rounds later?
Fairly cool spellstrike mechanic here: The Magus Remake.
Yes, I get that. But is the spell lost on a missed attack with the weapon? Or can the Magus continue to attack with the sword until he/she/it gets a hit, even if this is several rounds later?The spell is still held.
Now if the magus touches anything else the spell dissipates.
If the magus casts anything else the spell dissipates.
Until then the magus can elect to hold the charge just like any other caster of a touch spell.
-James
Is the spell restricted from that point on to be discharged only on an attack with the blade?
Or can the magus, after missing with the touch attack, missing with the weapon in the next round, then attempt a touch attack with the hand?
If the spell is restricted to attacks with the weapon to discharge, then is an attack roll necessary to discharge the spell (meaning the weapon could be sheathed), or would touching the sword to anything discharge it?
If touching the sword to anything discharges it, then could the Magus make a touch attack with sword (forgoing str and weapon dam)? And would enhancements to the weapon affect the attack and/or damage?
What about with TWF? In this case, Spiked Gauntlet and Rapier.
Rd. 1: Magus casts Touch spell, misses. Holds charge.
Rd. 2: Magus attacks with Rapier, misses. Attacks with Spiked Gauntlet, hits.
Can the Magus discharge the spell through the gauntlet? Or does he/she/it have to declare the weapon he is going to channel with?
Personally I would word it as a two-fold ability:1. As a standard action the magus can cast a 1 standard action casting time touch spell from his prepared magus spells and deliver it anytime during the round via a normal melee attack with a weapon as a free action. (much like any character can do via a touch attack)
Agreed.
2. When holding the charge on a touch spell the magus can deliver the spell via a normal melee attack, much like any character could do via an unarmed strike or natural weapon attack.
If you mean, "either through a touch attack (as normal) or though a normal melee attack," then, agreed.
Now the restriction on magus-only spells, frankly I don't feel needs to be there. If you want to take a level hit by multiclassing into magus for this ability for another casting class I say more power to you. Honestly I don't see it as being overpowered. Honestly I see it as more than balanced by taking the hit in your main class' progression.
Don't agree with this one.