True Magus - First Part Pointless?

[wraithstrike]

Aelryinth wrote:

Any reason this can't be a 'knows all spells on list' caster, and just do away with the spellbook? It would greatly add to his versatility in casting, like a sorc....his abilities to sac spell slots essentially become new 'spells known'.

Getting rid of the spellbook would be great. If there was a "war wizard" variant, or a different but similar class then it could have the spell book.

[wraithstrike]

At level 20 a True Magus is a threat to casters and dedicated melee warriors alike. If he is within melee threat range of a caster, then the opposing caster automatically fails his concentration check to cast the spell if the attack from the attack of opportunity damages the caster. If the caster chooses to cast defensively the DC is increased by 10*.
The True Magus is also effective against fighters and other melee oriented types due to his ability to deliver all his attacks as touch attacks for one round, even choosing to power attack if he pleases

*10 is an arbitrary number, and I have done no math to to verify that it is a good number to use. Feel free to replace this number as appropriate

The number of rounds that he can use touch attacks as a full round action is also just an arbitrary number, and the ability to power attack while only having to hit a touch AC may be a bit much.

Feel free to edit as needed. I like the general idea of the proposals, but I don't have much of an idea as to how strong they are.

[Ghenn]

Aelryinth wrote:

He doesn't actually have an AC penalty. Any AC he loses he makes up by saving +5 on the cost of his preferred weapon. That's +150k at level 20. His weapon is also quite modular...one of the same problems they are having at dreamscarred with the Soulknife builds.

I don't feel this is really a problem at all. If you make a character at higher level, then yes, he's got the extra money. If you're playing the game from low level, it's not, because there are always things that require money from the party, like expensive spell components, role playing situations, stuff getting broken / stolen, ect. Like I said in the SK discussion, if he saved each and every gold piece he didn't need right away from the start, then he might have it. Chances are, they won't be able to save that money for any number of reasons.

Is this an issue for the paladin as well? Because it seems like we've gotten this far without paizo releasing errata toning it down or removing it. Why should the Magus be any different?

[Chris Parker]

You are aware that that making all his attacks touch attacks would likely make them autohits, especially against classes that rely on heavy armour, right? I mean, you're probably looking at a Touch AC of between 10 and 15, even at level 20, due to the fact that AC doesn't scale with level without the use of Combat Expertise.

[LazarX]

The capstone should be something on the order of the ultimate expression of the spellblade theme. Something like a heightened form of weapon channelling. Say the ability to cast an empowered spell through the weapon as a free action on strike.

Or perhaaps something like a magical bladestorm effect that you can use once per day, that will send a magical duplicate of your weapon at every foe within 10 feet? making one attack at your highest plus each weapon carrying the magus-specific buffs at it, buffs added to the weapon only, not ones that came with it, such as flaming etc.

[wraithstrike]

Chris Parker wrote:

You are aware that that making all his attacks touch attacks would likely make them autohits, especially against classes that rely on heavy armour, right? I mean, you're probably looking at a Touch AC of between 10 and 15, even at level 20, due to the fact that AC doesn't scale with level without the use of Combat Expertise.

I will assume that was directed at me. I am not saying he should be able to do it all day long. I was saying for a limited number of rounds, most likely 2 to 3 in the course of a day.

[Are]

How about the capstone ability giving a bonus to melee attacks and damage for a full attack as long as you're also casting a spell? The bonus could be equal to the level of the spell you are casting.

[Chris Parker]

wraithstrike wrote:

Chris Parker wrote:

You are aware that that making all his attacks touch attacks would likely make them autohits, especially against classes that rely on heavy armour, right? I mean, you're probably looking at a Touch AC of between 10 and 15, even at level 20, due to the fact that AC doesn't scale with level without the use of Combat Expertise.

I will assume that was directed at me. I am not saying he should be able to do it all day long. I was saying for a limited number of rounds, most likely 2 to 3 in the course of a day.

Indeed, but when you consider that these are weapon attacks and one lot of spell damage, it changes from threat to overkill (especially since we don't know what further touch spells the Magus is getting). Personally, I rather liked Rogue Eidolon's idea of True Spellstrike: add the spell effect to every spell in the full attack, but the attacks still need to hit full AC rather than touch AC.

[wraithstrike]

Chris Parker wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

Chris Parker wrote:

You are aware that that making all his attacks touch attacks would likely make them autohits, especially against classes that rely on heavy armour, right? I mean, you're probably looking at a Touch AC of between 10 and 15, even at level 20, due to the fact that AC doesn't scale with level without the use of Combat Expertise.

I will assume that was directed at me. I am not saying he should be able to do it all day long. I was saying for a limited number of rounds, most likely 2 to 3 in the course of a day.

Indeed, but when you consider that these are weapon attacks and one lot of spell damage, it changes from threat to overkill (especially since we don't know what further touch spells the Magus is getting). Personally, I rather liked Rogue Eidolon's idea of True Spellstrike: add the spell effect to every spell in the full attack, but the attacks still need to hit full AC rather than touch AC.

What touch spells do damage that matters, other than ranged touch spells, and I am sure those won't qualify since ranged touch, and touch attacks are not the same thing. We don't know what the new spells will be, so we can't go off unknown data. As of now I don't think it is to have to force a save 3 times a round which is what RE's idea would do.

[mdt]

Hmmm,
Here's an option.

Arcane Might :
The magus gains the benefit of the diehard feat. In addition, if his hit points are reduced to a point that would kill him, instead of dieing his arcane energies are released in a burst of arcane might that keeps him standing and fighting for a number of rounds equal to his INT bonus. Once this occurs, no form of healing can restore life to his body, and his body is destroyed by the arcane energies at the end of this time. During this period, he can cast any spell he has ever prepared as if a spontaneous caster, even if he has no spell slots left for the day. No spell cast by him requires an open spell slot. During this period, he is resistant to all wounds, and only dies if his HP total reaches a negative number equal to his normal HP maximum. While in this state, the Magus adds his INT modifier to all attack and damage rolls, as well as all saves. The magus may not be resurrected afterwards, his spirit is too damaged by this. A magus may opt to not enter this state. Doing so allows the magus to be resurrected or reincarnated normally.

An alternate one might be...

Death Curse :
When a magus is killed, his will drives his body on for one round allowing him to designate a target to receive his death curse. The target must be in line of sight. The target receives a number of permanent negative levels equal to the Magus's INT modifier. These levels cannot be removed by any normal means that normally remove negative levels.
If the magus is ever reincarnated or resurrected, the curse is lifted and the negative levels removed from the target of the curse.

[redliska]

I think the idea previously mentioned about getting to use your spell strike for each attack of a full round attack action really focusses on the combined roles concept of the magus. Or maybe allow the magus to cast one touch range spell per turn through her weapon as part of an attack action, it combines a weapon attack and a spell with the added bonus of letting them use an extra spell per turn provided they are using spell combat.

[Doc Cosmic]

Arcane Avalanche: As a move action, the magus can summon powerful arcane energies to guide his melee attack. When activated the magus automatically performs a critical hit if he hits his target with a melee attack. This attack also ignores any damage reduction the target may have. This critical hit is considered a normal critical hit for the purposes of feats and special abilities. If the attack roll for the arcane avalanche attack becomes a confirmed critical on its own, then the critical damage multiplier is doubled for the arcane avalanche attack. The magus may use this ability a number of times per day equal to his intelligence modifier.

I personally think this is a great capstone ability for the magus.
1) It allows the magus to use any of the critical focus feats, potentially on the first round (especially if he is already buffed with True Strike) highlighting the importance of accessing fighter/combat feats.
2) It concentrates on the magus two strengths: melee and magic.
3) It allows the magus to fire off a spell as a swift action (standard: attack, move: arcane avalanche, swift: critical strike (touch spell that he is already in melee distance for).

[james maissen]

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Alexander Kilcoyne wrote:

Even a 15 point buy Magus will be very likely to have 22 Intelligence by Level 20. The first part is almost totally redundant. I was a bit unimpressed with the capstone overall to be honest.

Truth be told, I am not 100% pleased by it myself. Looking into other options. Thoughts?

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

Lower some of the abilities to levels at which they are not only an advantage but feel like a full class feature. Honestly as far as casting defensively goes I wouldn't mind them getting a bonus starting at 1st level and having it become automatic by 10th.

Consider the magus compared with a ftr1/wiz9/ek10 progression and the magus looks underwhelming.

The magus class features really have to shine for it to work in comparison. Otherwise for the same BAB, equivalent fighter level for feats, same number of bonus feats (or near about) you have the wizard spec powers and 18th casting as a wizard compared to a restricted list casting that seems about par with a 12th level wizard.

The idea of spellstrike and the like is great, but needs to be fleshed out. If this is to be a core class then these options should shine when one looks to play the canonical ftr/mu.

This is not even comparing it to the stronger Ftr/Mu PrCs that were in 3.5 merely the current one that exists in PF.

-James

[Goatlord]

A few quick words.
Lots of innovative ideas floating around here. Nice to see everyone in a supporting and creative mood together.

1) the idea for higher level spell slots but no higher level spells is cool. Not sure how it would turn out in the long run (is there any risk of the Magus being better than the wizard or sorceror this way? I don't think so, but there are many variables to be considered)

2) since we keep mentioning the idea of building off the magus' core concept of melee and magic in one.... how about something that lets him apply the bonuses from his Arcane Weapon to all of the spells he casts?

Just my 2 cents,

MSG

[Justin Franklin]

How about the no concentration check for casting, and with the bonded weapon you automatically confirm criticals. It gives it part of what th fighter gets without bumping up the crit damage from his spells, and removes that check that you can always roll a one on.

[Epic Meepo]

What about this capstone:

At 20th level, a magus may form a bond with a melee weapon as a standard action. This counts as preparing spells for the purpose of the arcane weapon class feature, although no actual spells are prepared.

[JRutterbush]

Running out of time here, and I skipped some of the later posts, so this may have been suggested. But for the 20th level ability, how about not having to make Concentration checks to cast spells... ever? There's no more spending ranks in Concentration, so nobody's missing out on any investments except Combat Casting, which is already there in the original ability. And the idea of the guy that's so used to casting in tense situations that he can do it with ease even in the most dire circumstances seems like a cool thing to have.

As for the other part of the capstone... other classes get things like insta-death and the like, I agree that the Magus should get something on par. Maybe:

Devour Magic (Su): Once per round, when you hit a target with a melee attack, you may use a targeted Dispel Magic on the target. If you successfully dispel a spell, you gain temporary HP equal to 3 per level of the spell dispelled, which last until the start of your next turn.

[Darkthorne68]

Capstone Ideas:
1) The Magus creates a stronger bond with his weapon causing it to become sentient.
2) Perhaps gains the ability to cast a ritual where his weapon becomes the equivalent of a phylactery for the Magus. (with appropriate expenses and perks)

[Kolokotroni]

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Alexander Kilcoyne wrote:

Even a 15 point buy Magus will be very likely to have 22 Intelligence by Level 20. The first part is almost totally redundant. I was a bit unimpressed with the capstone overall to be honest.

Truth be told, I am not 100% pleased by it myself. Looking into other options. Thoughts?

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing

My thoughts are you were on the right track with the second half of the ability. Successful stabbing making things harder to resist or easier to go through SR. Maybe increase the bonus to either spell or attack if the other is successful? Or make either the SR roll an auto success if you attack first and crit? Dunno, it is hard to say what would be a proper capstone because the real defining ability here is Spell Combat. And to add to it is potentially dangerous as you are already playing with the extra action fire as it is.

[AvalonXQ]

By suggestion for a capstone would be Supreme Spellstrike: The Magus can make a melee attack as part of casting a spell. If the attack hits and deals damage, the target takes the full effects of the spell as though she failed her save and the Magus overcame her spell resistance. If the attack misses or fails to do damage, the spell is expended to no effect. The Magus can use this ability with any spell that effects one or more creatures, even an area spell, but the effect is limited to the target of the melee attack.

[Dirk Blackbird McNight]

Diction wrote:

My preference for an improved level 20 capstone would be an improvement to Spellstrike, Spell Combat, or both.

To whit, something along the lines of this:

True Spellstrike: When using spellstrike a magus may cast the spell to be delivered through his weapon as a swift action. A magus' spellstrike attacks are treated as though possessing the brilliant energy weapon enhancement.

Wouldn't the problem with something like this be that the Magus is already starved for swift actions?

-Arcane strike (Swift) feat adding +5 damage to all weapon attacks
-Critical spell (Swift) Allowing a spell to be cast and delivered on a weapon crit.

On a side note, Incorporating Arcane strike as a free action as part of the Magus package is something i think needs to happen, and happen at a low level, to make critical spell worth taking.

[Nebelwerfer41]

mdt wrote:

Hmmm,

Here's an option.

Arcane Might :
The magus gains the benefit of the diehard feat. In addition, if his hit points are reduced to a point that would kill him, instead of dieing his arcane energies are released in a burst of arcane might that keeps him standing and fighting for a number of rounds equal to his INT bonus. Once this occurs, no form of healing can restore life to his body, and his body is destroyed by the arcane energies at the end of this time. During this period, he can cast any spell he has ever prepared as if a spontaneous caster, even if he has no spell slots left for the day. No spell cast by him requires an open spell slot. During this period, he is resistant to all wounds, and only dies if his HP total reaches a negative number equal to his normal HP maximum. While in this state, the Magus adds his INT modifier to all attack and damage rolls, as well as all saves. The magus may not be resurrected afterwards, his spirit is too damaged by this. A magus may opt to not enter this state. Doing so allows the magus to be resurrected or reincarnated normally.

An alternate one might be...

Death Curse :
When a magus is killed, his will drives his body on for one round allowing him to designate a target to receive his death curse. The target must be in line of sight. The target receives a number of permanent negative levels equal to the Magus's INT modifier. These levels cannot be removed by any normal means that normally remove negative levels.
If the magus is ever reincarnated or resurrected, the curse is lifted and the negative levels removed from the target of the curse.

I don't think it is a good idea to make a capstone dependent on the death of the character. I don't think many people have that kind of fatalistic outlook for their character if they levelled up from 1-20.

[Rogue Eidolon]

AvalonXQ wrote:

By suggestion for a capstone would be Supreme Spellstrike: The Magus can make a melee attack as part of casting a spell. If the attack hits and deals damage, the target takes the full effects of the spell as though she failed her save and the Magus overcame her spell resistance. If the attack misses or fails to do damage, the spell is expended to no effect. The Magus can use this ability with any spell that effects one or more creatures, even an area spell, but the effect is limited to the target of the melee attack.

Wouldn't that be essentially an automatic kill against any enemy in one standard+swift action if you Quickened True Strike and the use Supreme Spellstrike with Phantasmal Killer?

[AvalonXQ]

Rogue Eidolon wrote:

AvalonXQ wrote:

By suggestion for a capstone would be Supreme Spellstrike: The Magus can make a melee attack as part of casting a spell. If the attack hits and deals damage, the target takes the full effects of the spell as though she failed her save and the Magus overcame her spell resistance. If the attack misses or fails to do damage, the spell is expended to no effect. The Magus can use this ability with any spell that effects one or more creatures, even an area spell, but the effect is limited to the target of the melee attack.

Wouldn't that be essentially an automatic kill against any enemy in one standard+swift action if you Quickened True Strike and the use Supreme Spellstrike with Phantasmal Killer?

Any enemy the Magus can hit and damage that's not immune to mind-affecting or fear. Are CR 20+ enemies usually vulnerable to fear effects?

But if this is too powerful, the toned down version would simply resolve the spell with the enemy getting a penalty to saves and SR equal to the damage dealt by the attack.

[Rogue Eidolon]

AvalonXQ wrote:

Rogue Eidolon wrote:

AvalonXQ wrote:

By suggestion for a capstone would be Supreme Spellstrike: The Magus can make a melee attack as part of casting a spell. If the attack hits and deals damage, the target takes the full effects of the spell as though she failed her save and the Magus overcame her spell resistance. If the attack misses or fails to do damage, the spell is expended to no effect. The Magus can use this ability with any spell that effects one or more creatures, even an area spell, but the effect is limited to the target of the melee attack.

Wouldn't that be essentially an automatic kill against any enemy in one standard+swift action if you Quickened True Strike and the use Supreme Spellstrike with Phantasmal Killer?

Any enemy the Magus can hit and damage that's not immune to mind-affecting or fear. Are CR 20+ enemies usually vulnerable to fear effects?

But if this is too powerful, the toned down version would simply resolve the spell with the enemy getting a penalty to saves and SR equal to the damage dealt by the attack.

I'd presume that with True Strike, you're pretty set on hitting the enemy, and a level 20 Magus's damage is generally beyond the point where a DR/epic number of an enemy will be higher than min damage (I'm getting 1d6+26 while Power Attacking for my sample level 20 Magus, and I'm not aware of any PF enemies with DR greater than even 20/epic). As for immunity, I can't really speak for most of the APs, as I've only read Rise of the Runelords, but now that Mind Blank has eliminated carte blanche immunity to Mind Affecting spells and instituted a save bonus instead, there aren't that many BBEGs that are immune to mind affecting/fear (I think there aren't any creature types that have fear immunity specifically, actually, only Paladins). You've got your Constructs, Undead, and the Tarrasque, and maybe a few others.

[Decorus]

There are Lamia Matriarchs that are immune to mind affecting spells, Hell Knights eventually get an immunity to mind affecting spells and probably some demons, but there are Osirian feats you can take to remove the immunity to mind affecting spells on Undead (My Necromancer loves that)

[Rogue Eidolon]

Decorus wrote:

There are Lamia Matriarchs that are immune to mind affecting spells, Hell Knights eventually get an immunity to mind affecting spells and probably some demons, but there are Osirian feats you can take to remove the immunity to mind affecting spells on Undead (My Necromancer loves that)

How could I miss that in the Lamia Matriarch stat block? Wow, I don't think my party has used anything Mind-Affecting on good ol' X, but if they try it in their next fight with her, they'll wish they hadn't ^_^

Good finds.

[cfalcon]

Kirth Gersen wrote:

You're not going to want to hear this, but here it is: <caster hate>

/rolleyes

Anyway, on topic, ideas for a cool top tier ability include:

-A percent chance (possibly based on a specific attack roll in the sequence) to *preserve the spell*, having it cast without losing the slot. Alternatively, to instantly replace the now-cast spell with any appropriate one from the Magus's spellbook (aka, a spell that he knows). A would say this would represent something along the lines of the Magus weaving or reweaving the energy as he does his attack + cast sequence. This would presumably replace the whole ability, and would require the magus to actually be using his spell combat ability. Since the Magus is a prepared caster, any ability to freecast is inherently desirable, especially because you normally have just spent what you judge to be a valuable resource that you had to guess ahead of time would be useful when preparing spells- getting it back (or getting to tweak it) would be cool.

-"Improved Spell Combat"... Spell Combat is initially compared to two weapon fighting. Much as a two weapon fighter eventually gains the ability by buying other feats to employ his offhand weapon successfully more than once per round, the Magus could cast TWO spells as part of his action- presumably with a max level limit on the second one, to both ensure it is weaker and to emulate the -5 you get on iterative attacks. Unlike the above idea, this thins out, rather than thickens, the Magus's total number of castings.

-I *think* that the current mechanic of "choose a +2" looks sort of gimmicky. Given that the Magus will likely be worried about all three of these things, it seems like he might be having to figure out in his downtime which the optimum +2 to select is. If you are really sold on the +s to spell combat, should this actually be a "choose a +2"? Could it be just a +2? Or just a +1? If this is intended to be a cool choice to make, ignore me, I haven't playtested this ability and it might be really fun. But a +2 at 20th level seems like it's not the hugest bonus anyway.

-Perhaps the Magus allowed to fully weave his magic against an enemy, with both sorcery and steel, should be able to weave a barrier in place, some form of abjuration. I don't know what the details here would be though.

I'll post more if I think of anything worth reading. I still can't figure out if the Magus's spell list is supposed to be expansive or restrictive in the general case, or what spells he would be allowed to research. Most of his abilities draw on existing sources, so we can't do anything like "his blast of fire ability is now better in $way!". I think the idea of helping out his spell combat ability is a good one for the 20th level ability, but it should be done in such a way that it's cool if possible. Repeating, customizing, or instant spells could get there, but I'm probably missing a whole field of interesting stuff.