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When I was going through Crimson Throne, I played a fighter who hacked and slashed his way through the campaign. I found out later that the GM had fudged certain rolls throughout the story to “make it close.” In hindsight, although it breaks the suspense of disbelief for me (“so that 50 you rolled to grapple and almost kill me was made up?!”) it did not matter much because my character was a tough bastard.
Currently, I am going through Legacy of Fire of as a Wizard. While there is a different DM, I sometimes wonder if fudging is happening. The impact of fudging against a wizard, imho, is greater because some of her best weapons are save-or-die spells. Once her spells are used up, her contribution to combat are very small.
Fudging seems to be a very prevalent tool. To all the DMs out there, why do you fudge? Is it to “make it close?” I once GMed a game where the BBEG fell prey to the PC’s grease spells. He could not walk or pick up his weapon to save his life. The PCs killed the boss and the players were happy with the way things went. Although a bit disappointed about the outcome, I felt I have upheld RAW and did not fail to do my job.
My story is NOT meant to engage in a debate on whether DM fudging is RIGHT or WRONG. I do not wish to judge others on their reasons (some of which I am sure will be perfectly valid) behind fudging. I simply want to know why it’s being done instead of letting the dice decide the outcome. All feedback are welcome (including non-fudgers). Please keep it civil.
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As the post was being submitted I realized there is a need to carve out a very obvious, specific reason: to avoid TPK. I can under this reason, although I feel that for a realistic game, the kids gloves gotta come off at some point.
The above post is aim more towards DM fudging to HINDER PCs. Why is it being done?
because the adventure wasn't tooled for 'optimized' characters...power gaming breaks the system; 'nuff said.
Hitting a guy with a 50AC 10% is 95% chance to hit the AC30.
Because, in my case, I don't like running slaughter-fests. I'd rather have a close, exciting game than have party members roll through everything. If the boss is supposed to be tough, he's going to be freaking tough, even if that means I strap 4 additional levels to him about 30 seconds before combat. I fudge both for and against PCs, to make the story fun. Otherwise, some of my players would have lost a GM because I got tired to of them playing 'against' me.
Sometimes you WANT to instill fear in your Players, and used sparingly, fudging can do that. There is a reason GM/DMs get screens to roll behind :)
But it has to be used VERY sparingly, once or twice a campaign, if you don;t want it to get too obvious. Sounds like your DMs are overusing it. It happens with pre-gen adventures a lot, IMO, because they are designed to be universal, and different groups/players can come up with some novel ways of screwing with the AP as written. Once the GM gets a better hold on their party's abilities and weaknesses, they should tweak the encounters to challenge, but not counter, the party.
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because the adventure wasn't tooled for 'optimized' characters...power gaming breaks the system; 'nuff said.
Wouldn't retooling the monsters so they wouldn't get slaughtered by the overpowered PCs be a better option? I understand that would take more time for the GMs. Is fudging the preferred shortcut?
Wouldn't retooling the monsters so they wouldn't get slaughtered by the overpowered PCs be a better option? I understand that would take more time for the GMs. Is fudging the preferred shortcut?because the adventure wasn't tooled for 'optimized' characters...power gaming breaks the system; 'nuff said.
I usually just boost the HPs of the monsters, personally. Or I add a few extra as reinforcements.
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If the boss is supposed to be tough, he's going to be freaking tough, even if that means I strap 4 additional levels to him about 30 seconds before combat.
I would like to point out that I do not consider RETOOLING the monsters fudging. My perception of fudging revolves around dice rolling. An example would be when the GM rolls a 2 and then hand waves the save. Or when the GM adds an additional +5 to the monster's save w/out retooling it.
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Wouldn't retooling the monsters so they wouldn't get slaughtered by the overpowered PCs be a better option? I understand that would take more time for the GMs. Is fudging the preferred shortcut?because the adventure wasn't tooled for 'optimized' characters...power gaming breaks the system; 'nuff said.
I haven't had to deal with this for a while, but ISTR that sometimes I didn't realize the enormity of the disparity until I was actually running the game. That moment when you realize that the PCs' strengths and your BBEG's weaknesses line up like they were planned that way, and all it'll take is one mediocre roll on your part for the BBEG to cave...yeah, I'd try to make sure that the mediocre roll happened at the most dramatically appropriate moment, at least.
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Wouldn't retooling the monsters so they wouldn't get slaughtered by the overpowered PCs be a better option? I understand that would take more time for the GMs. Is fudging the preferred shortcut?because the adventure wasn't tooled for 'optimized' characters...power gaming breaks the system; 'nuff said.
again, I think that this depends on the dfinition of fudging : some wuld say changing the stats (like maxing HP) on the fly to be fudgeing, some consider it retooling. As far as I'm concerned, I never fudge rolls, sometimes if soemthing needs a 19+ to hit the fighter and they are in a 5 foot hallway(morlocks I'm looking at you), only able to focus on the fighter, I'll roll out a bunch of to hits so I know ahead of time how many misses they have before the fighter gets touched. This may be a little extra meta game-y as that would factor in on thier tactics (fight or flight to where they can find a ambush of the squishy party members) But I figure that the morlocks would be figuring the same thing out in thier head anyway, so its not too bad
Ideally, fudging AGAINST players never happens.
If the adventure wasn't tooled for optimized adventurers, retool it. Fudging against players is just mean.
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Yeah, I've fudged both for and against PCs. I get away with it partly because I use translucent dice that are damn-near impossible to read. That and I'm half-decent at bluffing.
The only reason I fudge is when the players are either rolling through everything like it isn't there, or when they are about to be stomped by something in a rather embarrassing manner. Either way I just fudge enough to get it back to "close call" status, then let it be again. If a wizard had a save-or-die and the BBEG failed his save then I'd (at best/worst) fudge that it just weakens him instead of killing him outright, and even that only if the players were still in prime condition after the minions were dealt with.
I also skip lame random encounters, and some lame written encounters that I see in APs. There aren't many, but time is at a premium and I don't care if it sounds fun that "it may be an adventure in itself" to get those giant eggs off of the mountain to sell, that's not what any of the people I play with find fun.
Rule 1: It must be fun.
I personally feel that DM-ing is more of an art than just a rules arbiter and I enjoy to run that way, but alot certainly depends on the group as a whole and their expectations. You can play with straight die rolls and rolling in front of players (no fudging). The game is still 'fun' that way, but it can be a different experience than one in which the group doesn't want their long storied character to fall to just unlucky die rolls and/or a DM running heavily on story that wants to craft an experience for his players.
So, for you it is probably about coming to a consensus (or compromise) with the Dm and other players about what 'kind' of game you want to have and why, rather than whether fudging die rolls is right or wrong.
D
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Ideally, fudging AGAINST players never happens.
If the adventure wasn't tooled for optimized adventurers, retool it. Fudging against players is just mean.
My poor choice of words. I don't think my GM ever did it to intentionally kill us off. He just, as a number of people already mentioned, wanted it to "make it close."
I think your GM was wrong about telling you that he fudged his dice. If I would ever fudge mine, I would never admit which one were fudged.
however, dice-fudging is a great-suspence builder, and the GM built some encounters a little bit wrong, it might be good to do it.
There is one rule that should be as absolute as the divinity of the GM:
What happens behind the GM screen, stays behind the GM screen.
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I think your GM was wrong about telling you that he fudged his dice. If I would ever fudge mine, I would never admit which one were fudged.
There is one rule that should be as absolute as the divinity of the GM:
What happens behind the GM screen, stays behind the GM screen.
+1. It totally breaks the suspense of disbelief for me and made the adventure less awesome, which led to me to inquire why fudging is done.
+1. It totally breaks the suspense of disbelief for me and made the adventure less awesome.I think your GM was wrong about telling you that he fudged his dice. If I would ever fudge mine, I would never admit which one were fudged.
There is one rule that should be as absolute as the divinity of the GM:
What happens behind the GM screen, stays behind the GM screen.
+1 I have many times fudged dice in players favor to keep a great PC alive, or to let them pull off something epic. The big key is they can never know dice were fudged. If they did, it would forever tarnish their crowning moment of awesome.
Also, if players know fudging is taking place they get an attitude that they can go nuts and the DM will keep them alive no matter what. It is important for the players to believe that the DM will kill their character.
Fudging dice is sometimes necessary to keep things fun as well.
I count the number of time people almost kill the bad guy leaving him at 1 or 2 hitpoints to have the whole table let out an excited grown. Then the next PC 'ganking' the kill, usually the bard plinking the BBEG for 1 point with his bow.
Then there are times when you crit a PC with a x3 or x4 crit weapon and do the math and think, crap this sends him straight to dead, but with a little fugging sets him into the negatives barely hanging onto life. The player is on edge hoping somebody can stablize him before he bleeds to death.
As a player I have more fun when the combats are on the razor's edge. Have that feeling that we just made it through. If our party just walks through the encounters and we get to the point we put the bard and wizard on the front line for the heck of it, that get boring and are not memorable encounters!
A perfectly written adventure that takes your character builds in mind can do this without any fudging. Using mass produced modules built for 'average' character builds and 'average' players while it may be perfectly built for some, other it will be too tough and other too easy. It is the DMs job to fine tune the adventure to give you that razor's edge feel. this is done by adjusting the encounters before hand or fudging some dice here and there to make it more exciting.
If you are not keen on that, then find someone willing to run things perfectly by the number, power game up, roll through an adventure then compare what you remember from that one, compared to what memoriable moments you had under the guy who fudged things to keep things interesting.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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These days, I'm either
(a) running in Pathfinder Society Organized Play, where fudging either for or against the PC's would be grossly unfair, or
(b) a home game where players have Hero Points, which they can buy with Experience. That mechanic has single-handedly solved any fudging issues, for both my players and me.
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Sometimes but not very often. Mostly only in key moments to either make things more interesting instead of a total let down. Or if a PC is about to die from good RPing putting them in a bad situation followed up being being unlucky. I dislike killing PC's that due to good RPing end up in situations that kill them.
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I'll fudge for the characters usually or as you suggested to show the optimized character they can be hurt. During fights I'll sometimes let the players who aren't combat gods get the killing blow in, good for a players ego. But fudging for me is used to maintain the Roleplaying when Rollplaying seems to be having a negative impact on the game.
Of course I don't tell my players this! They just think they are stupidly heroic.
S.
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I'll fudge for the characters usually or as you suggested to show the optimized character they can be hurt. During fights I'll sometimes let the players who aren't combat gods get the killing blow in, good for a players ego. But fudging for me is used to maintain the Roleplaying when Rollplaying seems to be having a negative impact on the game.
Of course I don't tell my players this! They just think they are stupidly heroic.
S.
Pretty much this. "God does not roll dice" and all that jazz. I view myself as a storyteller, director, "devil's advocate", working with the players to tell the best tale. I'm not a referee.
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Pretty much this. "God does not roll dice" and all that jazz.I'll fudge for the characters usually or as you suggested to show the optimized character they can be hurt. During fights I'll sometimes let the players who aren't combat gods get the killing blow in, good for a players ego. But fudging for me is used to maintain the Roleplaying when Rollplaying seems to be having a negative impact on the game.
Of course I don't tell my players this! They just think they are stupidly heroic.
S.
Is it bad if I look at your avatar and all I see is "Talk to the hand!"
But yeah, G.O.D.* doesn't roll dice. They allow the dice to be rolled. Big difference. And when the dice conflict with fun, the dice are no longer allowed to be rolled. Unfortunately many players are against this idea, so us G.O.D.s are forced to roll dice, pretend to look at them inquisitively, then announce the pre-determined result. Of course, we only do this occasionally, but if it's for the sake of fun then it must be done.
Hehe, I made a rhyme.
*Gaming Operations Director
PS: How many ranks in Bluff do you think that the average DM has? It's at least one, I know this, and it's definitely a class skill.
But yeah, G.O.D.* doesn't roll dice. They allow the dice to be rolled. Big difference. And when the dice conflict with fun, the dice are no longer allowed to be rolled. Unfortunately many players are against this idea, so us G.O.D.s are forced to roll dice, pretend to look at them inquisitively, then announce the pre-determined result. Of course, we only do this occasionally, but if it's for the sake of fun then it must be done.
Hehe, I made a rhyme.*Gaming Operations Director
PS: How many ranks in Bluff do you think that the average DM has? It's at least one, I know this, and it's definitely a class skill.
You are a poet and you didn't even know it....
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Is it bad if I look at your avatar and all I see is "Talk to the hand!"Pretty much this. "God does not roll dice" and all that jazz.I'll fudge for the characters usually or as you suggested to show the optimized character they can be hurt. During fights I'll sometimes let the players who aren't combat gods get the killing blow in, good for a players ego. But fudging for me is used to maintain the Roleplaying when Rollplaying seems to be having a negative impact on the game.
Of course I don't tell my players this! They just think they are stupidly heroic.
S.
That was a Heal spell. You have now irk G.O.D. so now it's a Destruction spell. Get a little closer, willya....
Hehe, I made a rhyme.
"I knew this woman from Venus, who's body was shaped like a --"
What?
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We roll all dice out in the open. We all usually know what a successful roll is (but not always). We let the dice fall where they may. My experience has led me to conclude that player's can usually figure out when you loose your nerve behind the screen.
We want to earn our victories. We want it to be "close" when the dice say it will be. We also want fate to speak out when it must!
We do not want the playing field leveled, because we believe that there is nothing worse than someone handicapping our fun:)
Regards,
Bruce
The big key is they can never know dice were fudged. If they did, it would forever tarnish their crowning moment of awesome.
When I DM I approach it as a writer/storyteller. I fudge mostly by holding back my monsters a little (I play them smart if I can) -- it's easier for me than adding stuff to them. Sometimes the plot is improved by the villain getting away, things like that.
Boss fights should be a challenge and when I don't fudge a little they can be either overkill or a cakewalk with an unexpected party combo -- I use a lot of published stuff since I'm a busy guy. I try to pre-fudge as much as possible-- add a few things and then drop them if they prove to be too much.
Some encounters I build or add in are thematic or mood encounters -- to keep up the tension or sense of danger. This is why DMing lower level characters can be more fun -- it's easier to calibrate danger versus less abilities and such.
As DM, I don't personally like to fudge rolls, for a variety of reasons already stated by other posters. I do, however, recognize there are times when fudging is necessary -- and, as a result, I make heavy use of action points/hero points in my games. That way the PLAYERS are in charge of the fudging, and they know it's a finite resource like spells and hp -- so they have an opportunity to escape if they get in over their heads (instead of automatically being annihilated), but at the same time, they know they can't rely on dumb luck to get them through if they keep pushing ahead and are getting the worst of things.
I don't fudge in favor of the bad guys, but then again, I'm infamous for ignoring EL guidelines.
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I do not fudge as it leads to a sense of unfairness. Do you keep a ledger for whom received how many "fudged" rolls? Also, it detracts from the realism of the game.
Simple Policy: DMs don't kill players, players kill players. That is to say, one shouldn't fudge against a PC to kill them, only to make them hurt. If this later leads to them dying when they shouldn't, fudge the other way.
However, if a player does something incredibly stupid, then they receive the full "gift" of their actions. The only time I'll fudge for a player in one of these situations is if they were doing it to role-play something and it would have been irking (roleplay-wise)*not* to take the lesser course of action. Sure, it's not a good idea to attack the BBEG alone and surrounded just because he is in the middle of brutally and slowly murdering your family, but it'd be hard to imagine anyone who wouldn't do just that.Lastly, it should be noted that one can fudge something other than the dice and still receive a similar result. Maybe that BBEG decides it would be better to let the PC live so that they can suffer as much as possible (PTSD?). Maybe someone else rushes in deus-ex-machina style and saves the PC and possibly even one of the NPCs (though they'll likely be permanently scarred). This kind of thing can build character and is much more fun than "I run away like a b%**~." Nothing like writing "scar below left eye, Veliarus will pay" on your character sheet.
I remember I once had a character (who knew a myriad of languages*) get caught in the throat by a dagger and healed, but he was unfortunately a mute until they could find someone with regeneration (not easy in a low-magic campaign). It was actually quite fun trying to role-play that out, though I admit it wouldn't be for everyone.
* This was 3.5e. Yeah, that's right, I took speak language. It wasn't even a class skill.
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I do not fudge as it leads to a sense of unfairness. Do you keep a ledger for whom received how many "fudged" rolls? Also, it detracts from the realism of the game.
Not really needed. It's PC verses the World not PC's versus the DM. Without fudging stats can ruin a game either way. Fudging is a DM's tool to stop this destroying the game. For all the talk of average this and average that, each dice roll is stochastic. Who cares if the players rolls that d20 1500 times the average is 10.5 if the next roll is the one that determines life or death. Part of the learned skill of being a DM is knowing when to fudge.
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It's PC verses the World not PC's versus the DM. Without fudging stats can ruin a game either way. Fudging is a DM's tool to stop this destroying the game. For all the talk of average this and average that, each dice roll is stochastic. Who cares if the players rolls that d20 1500 times the average is 10.5 if the next roll is the one that determines life or death. Part of the learned skill of being a DM is knowing when to fudge.
+1
Simple Policy: DMs don't kill players, players kill players.
This reminds me of the Dashiell Hammett quote, from one of his "Continental Op" stories:
"Most people don't 'get killed'; rather, they get themselves killed."
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I do not fudge. WILL not fudge. If the monster needs to be tougher, or do more, then I'm adding the advanced template or adding class levels.So you are doing planned fudging and others are doing it later!
This is like birth control pill versus morning after pill....
Fudge is not the correct term it is icing....
The Pc's earn the cake and the icing just comes with it!
DM's best friend +2/-2 is fudging.........in a strict sense!
Then rule 0 allows for icing......
What? No.
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I wll fudge dice when I screw something up - and it's always in favor of the players. If I mess up some rule and the monster was stronger than he was supposed to be, or I added too many monsters in an attempt to balance a large party and got my numbers wrong, or I described something incorrectly and the PC took an action that hurts them becuase of my oversight, for example, I will fudge things somehow to keep it from killing a PC. Sometimes PCs die - I try to make sure that either their own stupidity or the misfortunes of angry dice gods, not a screw up on my part, are the cause, however.
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I have a good feel for my players. Once in a rare while, I'm sure a fudged roll will make everyone happier, so I do it. But I try to use other tools to avoid the need, and I fudge a LOT less than I did 10 years ago. Most sessions, no fudge at all is needed. (Though at 3am, I suspect I may be fudging rolls due to bad math skills and general punch-drunk errors.)
And, I sometimes fudge about fudging.
As a GM I usually roll dice behind a barrier, mostly so player's don't immediately begin doing math to figure out things exact threat ranges, AC, saving bonuses, et al. I DO give some narrative clues (‘though the duelist tries to dance away from your axe blow, you narrowly manage to connect with his leg before he can jump clear'), but a lot of my players are VERY numbers-savvy, and if they see die rolls they'll work out exact numbers without even meaning to.
That said, I do my best NOT to give in to the temptation to fudge numbers. And often, if a single roll is crucial, I make a BIG DEAL of rolling it in the open. My players know I reserve the RIGHT to fudge die rolls (though since they are all smarter than me, I would get caught if I did it at all often), so reserving open-view rolls for moments of dramatic tension helps build that tension.
Of course, it also makes sure I'm honest with the result. But if I didn't keep most die results hidden, I couldn't make a big play out of rolling them in plain view when the paladin does enough damage to force the dragon to make a massive damage save the round before the dragon's breath weapon is available again. So suggesting a fudge more than I do helps me build tensions when it's needed. And, when the dragon DOES roll a 1 on a plain-view save, everyone cheers knowing it's an honest failure.
What I am most likely to fudge are limitations in the rules that would ruin a good idea, or make my gods look petty. I'm somewhat famous for divination and commune spells giving out WAY more information that the rules dictate when a party has stumbled on a major enemy of their gods, and ask for guidance. For the most part, everyone seems good with that.
I almost never alter the roll of a die.
I tend to roll tense or important things in front of my players even though they won't know the modifiers. If they see a high number, they'll feel better about the bad guy making his save against the ultra-important ability for instance. It's also an extra bonus when a bad guy rolls a natural 1 against something. "You screw him over that bad!"
I certainly feel free to re-roll initiative for monster clumps. If I've got a few different types of monsters I'll roll them individually to break up the monotony of combat. If two blocks happen to roll so their one after another, I'll frequently re-roll to spread them out.
Also, if I look at written material and think the DC is too high for something I might lower it to retroactively fudge a PC's roll. Examples include opening locks where players haven't super-optimized their character. If taking 20 leaves them one shy or thereabouts, I'll "help".
The only other time that I might fudge a roll is as I read the room. If the players manage to spend three rounds in a row rolling nothing but 3s and 4s on the d20, I might encourage the bad guy to have a bad round - if he's close to missing in the first place. Sometimes the dice are evil and when that happens it's frustrating to the player. I won't add insult to injury by killing the player because bad luck happens a bunch of rolls in a row.
So all in all, I don't think I've ever fudged a meaningful roll so a bad guy makes a save or attack.
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I think it was mentioned before, DMing is an art. Do I fudge a dice roll? Yes once in a while.
Why do I fudge a die roll? Well the simpleist answer is statistics. As a DM I have an endless stream of monsters to throw at the PCs. They only have one character. Eventually the PCs luck will turn, and things will go very badly for them.
I will eventually get lucky roll a string of 17s,18s, and 20s and kill my player’s characters. Every so often a character does die. This happens. Im not out to get my players. But if they do something very stupid, I let the dice fall where they may.
Do I fudge the dice in the monster’s favor? Hardly ever. Most of my fudging is in the PCs favor.
but again, die rolling conventions are best set up at the begining of a campaign, are all of the rolls going to be made out in the open? etc.
I find an excellent policy is to have the playre's roll their dice in the middle of the table, so everyone can see the rolls.
I tend to roll behind a screen, but not all the time.
just my two cents.
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The totally non-fudging game with out in the open rolls means that you get frequent PC death and risk the occasional TPK. You only need a series of misses, or the baddies get a few crits, or the PCs unexpectedly do something stupid, and one or more PCs is toast.
Now as long as everyone at the table is prepared for that and can handle that then fine. Its that contract you make with your GM and the wider group. I prefer it, though we lose at least one PC a month that way in our game on average (playing a standard AP with encounters that are party size adjusted).
If you are more precious about PC death then either the encounters are too easy or there is fudging going on.