After playing around with a Magus at a few different levels with a couple of friends, I have to say that it's suffering from a distinct lack of focus for a melee combatant, straddling the fence a bit too much as if it were having a hard time deciding what it wants to do. Rogues have the same issues in melee, but reliably pack a little extra punch to make up for their lack of defense/utility with Sneak Attack.
IMO the Magus needs to pick a direction, or have to pick one of a couple of directions. It either needs a little more oomph in reliable melee output, or needs it's spell list opened up a bit to add some versatility to make up for the low output, or needs to be provided with more ways to reliably mitigate or absorb incoming damage.
I like the ability to charge the weapon with touch spells how ever I don't think it should be spellstrike. Charging the weapon with spells should be a part of the Arcane Weapon ability. It would need to have clear time limits on how long a Magus can hold the spell and it should include ranged touch spells. In this case you are exchanging range for the ability to have multiple attempts to hit the target with the spell.
My biggest concern is the Arcana abilities where you sacrifice spells for temporary buffs. They don't seem to give as much of a benefit for the spells you sacrificed. Hastened Assault as a self only haste buff is fine, but would you really toss a disintigrate for 6 rounds of haste?
I can see myself sacrificing a spell to reflect another spell back at its caster (Especially Feeblemind) I can even see myself sacrificing a spell to counterspell another spell. I can even see myself tossing a spell for a quick short range teleport to suprise opponents. How ever tossing a spell for a + hit bonus or shield bonus or such a short duration haste I'm just not seeing except in the most dire of circumstances. The other problem is it has so many swift actions that clutter up your attacks especially on a class that is tailor made for Quicken spell and Arcane Strike. The Medium and Heavy Armor proficencies really ought to be Arcana.
The spell selection is missing some of the more obvious choices like Foe Hammer, Mage Sword, Lead Blades, vampiric touch and It really is a class that is tailor made for all 3 forms of the dragon starting at 4th level and ending at 6th. I'm not seeing much use for Transformation or Flame Arrows, but I would kill for an Elemental Blade spell.
The Capstone isn't much to look at and honestly the other abilities you get outshine it. I would also kill for the ability to use spell completion items in my off hand while doing spell combat....
There's a thought instead of spellstrike you get "Scribe on Bond"
kinda like scribe on familiar to add spells to a familiar except you adding spells from your daily alotment to your sword which can be fired off under "certain conditions"
e.g. add a number of touch spell levels equal to your Magus level to your bonded weapon. You can discharge these spells once per round if you first weapon attack hits. You get to pick which spell is discharged.
I like the ability to charge the weapon with touch spells how ever I don't think it should be spellstrike. Charging the weapon with spells should be a part of the Arcane Weapon ability. It would need to have clear time limits on how long a Magus can hold the spell and it should include ranged touch spells. In this case you are exchanging range for the ability to have multiple attempts to hit the target with the spell.
So you'd perfer somerthing closer to Duskblade? (Players Handbook 2 in 3.5 had a class similar to Magus).
In the class you could channel as part of the attack with weapon (starts out standard action, but later can full attack). Example Shocking grasp:So assuming longsword on a 3rd level Duskblade with Str 18 (but we could go 2 handed with Duskblade but lets use longsword). hit + 7 (4 Str +3 bab).
You'd deal 3d6 electric +1d8 +4 on 1 attack with Decent chance to hit and deal damage.
I am groking the Magus a bit more now. The prepared spells thing fits with a methodical, planner personality-- note Int as a main ability. The who thing suggests a person of significant discipline and studiousness-- otherwise how can they be a fighter/wizard?
It's like practicing a specific fencing move before hand after studying the opponent. Sure, you can flail around and substitute a magic-infused attack for a spell, but a smart Magus plans both melee and spell-casting carefully.
I also note that the Bard-like spell level progression kind of suggests that Beguiler-like builds aren't the direction Pathfinder is taking. "Multiclass" spellcaster/martial characters should have this limitation.
The dramatic spell-casting bent also helps to distinguish the character from the more subtle Bard spell list.
This is a fighter/wizard, i.e., a fireball slinger with a sword. Still, I look forward to alternate class features somewhere along the line to provide some variety. Smaller spell lists spawn "best builds" in the way an extensive spell list does not.
My biggest issues currently are the general lack of arcana, the spell combat not being quite where it feels it should (and doesn't roll where it should) and the spell list. I honestly like the feel of the class -- though I think it isn't really *needed* I feel this is still a good class.
One side note: I would really like to see this class being able to take spell mastery.
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Okay so as I make this class to make some githyanki to fill up a base, I'm seeing something bad. This class really doesn't come into it's own til level 8...which kinda makes a moot point for a replacement to the EK. The level 6 mooks I made suck MUCH worse then the fighter 1/wizard 5 I orginal had them as. The level 8 elite guards and the level 12 boss are actually better with the magus. And the 8-12 range seems to be the sweet spot of this class compared to the EK builds (they were all orginally EK builds). But the boss of the next arc at level 15...yeah the EK kinda wins. Which makes this class very puzzling as the early levels of this class sucks more then the EK entry. Spell combat is awesome...spell combat is also not something you can even remotely use with the -4 to hit and -2 to con checks at low levels. So I would say kick spell combat til level 8 and replace it with an ability that is good at low levels. Like say as a standard action, sacrafice a spell to do 1d6 per spell level of arcane damage with your melee attack. Even at high levels you may wanna still use this ability as the extra damage would go through just about anything so you can do some damage each round.
On a side note, while spell combat with the magus as is doesn't worry me, I do see this ability as one of those gateway to broken. Extra actions are very easily abusable...which is why 3.0 haste needed to be changed badly. To fend off powercreep, I would limit this ability to instant duration touch spells. Will need better spells to make up for this.
On a side note, while spell combat with the magus as is doesn't worry me, I do see this ability as one of those gateway to broken. Extra actions are very easily abusable...which is why 3.0 haste needed to be changed badly. To fend off powercreep, I would limit this ability to instant duration touch spells. Will need better spells to make up for this.
I really dont want to see this. In a playtest last night what I really enjoyed about the class was using non-touch spells (particularly battlefield control and ranged spells) with spell combat. Extra actions if they are open are a path to broken, but given it is limited to a single spell with 1 standard action as casting time and must be accompanied by a full attack with a 1handed weapon (and hopefully stays that way) i think we are ok. I do think it is important they keep the strict language on what kind of attacking can be done along with spell combat, and then it's just up to dms to make sure that those restrictions are adhered to.
Spell combat is what is new and different about the class. If it is limited to instantaneous touch spells its just a Duskblade redux with a limitation on what kind of weapons you can wield.
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first few thoughts
capstone need to be replaced with something else, that's an ablity I'd expect at levels 6-10, not 20.
Counterstrike seems useless to me, what wizard wouldn't port away or other wise get out of reach if a weapon wielding maniac is close to him?
Weapon Bond is weak for 16th, I'd place it at about 6th-8th.
finally lift the 1/day limits on arcana or let them take the same arcana more than once for more uses.
crit for spells also wouldn't work as I'd never give up an arcane strike boost for the chance, make it immediate and I'd consider it.
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On a side note, while spell combat with the magus as is doesn't worry me, I do see this ability as one of those gateway to broken. Extra actions are very easily abusable...which is why 3.0 haste needed to be changed badly. To fend off powercreep, I would limit this ability to instant duration touch spells. Will need better spells to make up for this.I really dont want to see this. In a playtest last night what I really enjoyed about the class was using non-touch spells (particularly battlefield control and ranged spells) with spell combat. Extra actions if they are open are a path to broken, but given it is limited to a single spell with 1 standard action as casting time and must be accompanied by a full attack with a 1handed weapon (and hopefully stays that way) i think we are ok. I do think it is important they keep the strict language on what kind of attacking can be done along with spell combat, and then it's just up to dms to make sure that those restrictions are adhered to.
Spell combat is what is new and different about the class. If it is limited to instantaneous touch spells its just a Duskblade redux with a limitation on what kind of weapons you can wield.
Being fine now because of the really limited spell list is one thing...but if they can DD for example, you'd could full attack and DD away. If a spell like benign/baleful teleport were to be written and given to the magus, they could full attack and swap. Yeah not game breaking powerful, but that is some tame examples of powercreep that this ability can bring about unless VERY tight reign is kept over the magus spell list. I'd rather see a more free spell list and a less abusable class ability.
Another idea maybe to steal from spellsword's spell channeling and you can make a full attack and cast a spell with 1 standard action. The spell affects the target of your full attack only. If you hit multiple targets with your full attack the spell effects only one initially and then all at a higher level. So you could spell combat and cast web and choose one target to get webbed at level 8 and at level 14 it webbs everyone you hit with your full attack. A bit more open options...but the teleporting trick would not work for example.
To me that would be a case of been there done that. Stealing from the spell sword is pretty pointless. Its already there, and if you dont want to convert there are already a handful of 3rd party classes that do that sort of thing designed explicitly for pathfinder.
Personally I dont think it is a case of power creep if you add spells. Because to me at least, the spell isnt the add on. Its the attack. Look at it from the reverse. The magus can cast 1 standard action spell (any mage can do that) and add to the spell a 1handed full attack of 3/4bab. The add on then becomes constant. Any mage with baleful teleport in the game can cast that, its just a matter of whether the tradoffs the magus makes (fewer spells, 6 levels of casting etc) is worth the full attack on top of the spell.
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To me that would be a case of been there done that. Stealing from the spell sword is pretty pointless. Its already there, and if you dont want to convert there are already a handful of 3rd party classes that do that sort of thing designed explicitly for pathfinder.
Personally I dont think it is a case of power creep if you add spells. Because to me at least, the spell isnt the add on. Its the attack. Look at it from the reverse. The magus can cast 1 standard action spell (any mage can do that) and add to the spell a 1handed full attack of 3/4bab. The add on then becomes constant. Any mage with baleful teleport in the game can cast that, its just a matter of whether the tradoffs the magus makes (fewer spells, 6 levels of casting etc) is worth the full attack on top of the spell.
Baleful teleport by itself would do nothing...it's the combination of doing damage with it that's gonna cause the issue. Not that it's all that powerfull mind you. It's just a off the top of my head example. When you leave things open, you leave more room for things to combine badly. Any magus spell is pretty dang open.
Okay, I may just be blind, but I've looked through here to see if it's been asked and couldn't see answer, and couldn't find it in the PDF, so...
What's the Magus' starting gold at level one? I'm guessing either 3d6x10 or 4d6x10.
Cheers for the help. I'm hoping to convert my lvl 2 Wizard in my Legacy of Fire campaign on Saturday :)
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Any chance of adding some Core book touch spells to this list temporarily, to properly playtest this class? I understand that some new touch spells will be in Ultimate Magic when it comes out, but for playtesting, this class is fairly weak on touch spells even though the "meat" of the class is all about them.
I finished my Play Test tonight.
She was a level 6 Magus Vampire.
She, as well as some other Vampires, were taking on 5 level 6 PCs.
She made it through 6 rounds of combat with them.
I used Spellstike with Spell Combat Twice using Shocking Grasp. I had issues hitting their AC with a +7 as a Vamp using Spell Combat in general, but when I did hit I used a Scimitar. She did 1d6+6 dmg plus shocking grasp dmg and arcane strike.
This combo was decent.
Fire Breath and Scorching Ray were awesome (esp with the better bab to hit touch AC while they are in combat).
The Concentration check wasn't that big of a deal, although I did take combat casting.
Arcane Accuracy helped to mitigate the -4.
Spell Shield was great, although by the end of the battle I had used every single spell I had prepared.
My impression is this...The magic is almost right on the dot, but needs some more touch spells (you are coming out with more so this point is moot). When using Spell Combat, its a great way to grab an extra buff and still attempt to attack or get in a nice AoE or Ray attack. Spell Combat also works hand in hand with Spellstrike.
I feel like this class doesn't have enough spell slots to be honest, but it needs the versatility of its current spell list to be viable. There are so many extra abilities, and even if I am conservative, they still feel like they go fast.
I feel like Spell Combat should be 3+int/day without the penalties, that way its not spammed but it is actually effective.
The damage out put of this class isn't comparable to Fighter or Wizard, but its versatility makes up for that.
I really liked the feel of the class, just needs a little more tweaking.
I honestly can't see arcane accuracy ever being used over arcane strike. Using a spell slot for +hit will almost never be better than using nothing for bonus damage. Granted, it is one of the few ways for them to get bonus hit, but I do not see anyone paying both the ability cost and spell cost to pick this up.
Hasted Assault is a little better, since you can still get the bennefit rounds later and are getting +1 to hit and a free attack that round. Don't think I would take it, as I would rather cast haste with spell combat by the time I could take this, but it is not bad.
Dispelling Strike has an alternate use that is important, and I like it. it is worth giving up Arcane Strike for.
Spell shield is a neat one, but it has problems. I don't mind it vs arcane strike since it is an immediate action and you don't have to decide when you are attacking. The problem with it is it is too tiny a bonus. The shield spell will give you a +4 as a first level spell for the entire combat. With this, you need to be level 10 to get that, and blow your 1 4th level spell to get it for 1 round. As far as actions go, it could be worth it, but as far as power I would never use it.
Reflection is like Dispelling strike but has the added bennefit of being an immediate action. I like it alot.
These are all the abilities that let you sacrifice a spell. 2 of them are not very good, but can be taken at 3rd or 6th level. They don't really balance well against equivalent spells though, IMO. 2 can be taken at 9th level, and by that time you have plenty of spells to use these with, and both are the effects of 3rd level spells but can be used with lower slots. 1 is taken at 15th level and is not only a really neat ability but also a good way of getting rid of some of your excess slots.
And Critical Strike is a trap. I would never not use arcane strike for the small chance to get annother spell. A really awesome improved spell list could change this, but I doubt it.
I have two suggestions to add to my above thoughts...and I see Caineach has already mulled over them as well.
Arcane Accuracy and Spell Shield need to have a greater value.
My suggestion is that you Change them both to a static bonus and they work basically like Hasted Assault.
For instance....
Arcane Accuracy - Either scaling bonus or gets rid of the -4 from using Spell Combat. Its a swift action and last as many rounds as the level of spell Sacrificed.
Spell Shield - I have a few thoughts on this. Double the spell sacrificed as an immediate action, OR a scaling modifier, that uses a move action, to gain a bonus to ac for as many rounds as the level of spell sacrificed.
I believe this was posted elsewhere, but I have some concerns with the flavor of the class. This is most certainly a personal thing, and I don't expect everyone to agree with me. However, for me, the idea of a melee combatant who blends the art of magic with that to become adept at both, but masters neither does not "jive" with wearing anything more than light armor. This is especially true, for me, if you're creating a class that is strictly to use a 1 hander and a free hand with 3/4 BAB. I'd like to see the armor proficiencies removed in favor of magically enhanced, perhaps insight based, ac. Int as an insight or deflection bonus to ac while wearing light or no armor, or something to that effect.
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Arcane Accuracy really ought to be adds your int to your hit for a number of rounds equal to the spell level.
Hastened Assault should be hastes you for a number of rounds equal to your int + spell level.
Spell Shield could really use the same treatment a shield bonus to your ac equal to your int for a number of rounds equal to the spell level.
I really think the Medium and Heavy armor options should be Arcana so a player can choose to go higher in armor or not.
Evasion and Improved Evasion should also be tossed in to the Arcana and possibly even the Fighter Training buffing it to full level then bump it up to an Arcana every even level.
Basicly the Magus Arcana should feel like the training they undergo as a Magus be it picking up cool extra Mage abilities or concentrating more on learning how to be a better fighter it would allow better diversity in making your Magus so they are less cookie cutter and literally drowning in choices.
Decorus has a good idea. Mr. Fishy likes the Aracana list as training for the Magus. It makes the Magus customizable with out the damage of making him too powerful. Some of the CMs are attack actions. A arcane trip, or a magical bull rush. Energy bolts?
Can we have energy bolts!?!
Stop laughing! Mr. Fishy is serious...well as serious as he can be.
I very much like the idea that Medium Armor and Heavy Armor could be Magus Arcana options.
Thoughts on the following?
1) Spellcasting is supposed to be harder than using a sword. When using Spell Combat, -2 to melee attacks and -4 to concentration checks to cast defensively. Improved Spell Combat changes it to -2/-2 or 0/-2 and Greater Spell Combat makes it 0/0.
2) A Magus is not necessarily and by default going to be focusing in spellcasting or fighting. No free Combat Casting or Weapon Focus feat for him; he has to take whatever feats he wants in the normal way. After all, not all may be taking Combat Casting or Weapon Focus. Eschew Materials for free would be nice for the flavor of not having to reach into his spell component pouch while in the heat of close combat.
3) The Magus seems to me to be a mobile fighter/mage, especially considering that casting spells would and should and is more difficult the heavier the armor. I do not think he should be getting Heavy Armor Proficiency and the ability to cast spells without penalty in it; I mean, a walking 'tank' clad in encumbering full plate armor does not scream medium BAB, d8 fighter/mage to me. Medium Armor I guess is alright (elven chain, though considered light, needs Medium Armor Proficiency to be used without penalties and is kind of a staple for the bladesinger this class seems to remind me of).
4) As for the Fighter Training, I think I would prefer it to begin at 1st or 2nd level instead of suddenly counting as a 5th level fighter at 11th level. This way one would be eligible for the Weapon Specialization feat at 8th level, or 9th level to be more precise since that is the closest level you get to pick a feat while fulfilling the criteria.
I'm going to have to be a little bit of a pain here, but as it's written I really hate this class.
Ok, I’ll admit I'm not a big fan of the dusskblade class, and as the class is written it feels a lot like a power down, but expanded duskblade. What I was really hoping for is a full BAB, d10 hp, ranger spell progression class that concentrated on de-buffs, utility spells, and touch bases spells to ad some extra oomph to his attacks. What I see is just really disappointing. After all we already have a bard, summoner, alchemist (I know it's not really spellcasting, but it's so similar), and Inquisitor (I know she's a divine caster but she's very similar).
My suggestion, destroy the current class and have a complete class rewrite.
Note: I'm being a little presumptuous here, I don't really think that my disappointment will lead to a complete class rewrite, but I wouldn't mind if it did.
Anyway, for anyone else who would like to see more warrior and less wizard from this class, you might as well speak up or otherwise the class will be going forward as written. And, for those who feel the class is great as written feel free to flame me........now.
I'm going to quickly throw my 2 copper in the other bowl for keeping the Magus at it's current flavor, even if the mechanics change. I'd rather have a ranger or paladin-esque subclass for the more warrior styled Arcane Warrior, rather than having one of the few classes that has ever had the potential for what I have always wanted get maimed.
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Honestly it should be
-4/-4
-2/-4 if Using a light weapon (Give people a reason to go Rapier)
If they get a free feat at level 1 it should be Arcane Strike not combat casting or weapon focus.
Fighter Training at full level Armor proficencies all should be slapped in Arcana so people can get them or not as they choose.
The 8 swift actions need to be looked at a possibly have some of them converted into Free Actions...
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Anyway, for anyone else who would like to see more warrior and less wizard from this class, you might as well speak up or otherwise the class will be going forward as written. And, for those who feel the class is great as written feel free to flame me........now.
I agree, the flavor I would prefer is an arcane paladin/ranger.
The things I don't like about paladin/ranger are that they don't get orisons, and no spellcasting until 4th level. If the class gets special abilities that have an arcane feel ( similar to lay on hands and smite evil gives a divine feel to the paladin ) then it might be okay, but the loss of cantrips makes me sad.
Another option is that the class get full BaB and bard-like casting - but the spell list only goes up to 4th level. 5th and 6th level spells consist entirely of metamagic. And I would prefer that even if they get bard-like 6th level max casting, they get the lower spell slot progression of other prepared casters.
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Honestly I agree that the whole later level spellcasting for Paladins and Rangers needs to be done away with and they should be able to start with 0-4th level spells, but that isn't what play testing the Magus is about.
The Magus is supposed to be an even mix between spellcasting and melee fighting not I'm a fighter who can also as an afterthought cast spells.
For what it's worth, I strongly agree that a 3/4 BAB class screams "support character" rather than "front line combatant." I'd rather start with something closer to a paladin, swap out the class abilities for arcana, etc.
The catch is, as Jess astutely pointed out -- you'd need to give them cantrips starting at 1st level so that you're playing an arcane warrior from the start. Otherwise, all you'd be doing is jamming an eldritch knight into a single class.
For my money, the Magus would be better off starting from Jess' proposed class, rather than from a bard.
For my money, the Magus would be better off starting from Jess' proposed class, rather than from a bard.
Especially considering that there's already a similar "arcane warrior" bard variant that came out in the APG just recently.
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For my money, the Magus would be better off starting from Jess' proposed class, rather than from a bard.Especially considering that there's already a similar "arcane warrior" bard variant that came out in the APG just recently.
My proposed homebrew class has issues. It has a new spell progression, and there's a lot of discussion between friends I've shown it to and myself on uses of special abilities per day, the relative power of special abilities, etc. It's still pretty rough. If we switched it to pure paladin/ranger spell progression I would keep the number of uses of other abilities high.
The Arcane Duelist is a fine reinterpretation of the half caster / half combatant. The lower attack bonuses are offset by singing, the spell list is quite good for buffing, and has many of my favorite bread and butter arcane warrior spells. I added levels of fighter for access to fighter only feats and because I'm generally happy with 4th level spells in an arcane warrior build.
To put it succinctly, if I have a typical 4 person party, I cannot see a useful place for the current magus. It can't fight well enough to replace the fighter, and it can't cast well enough to replace an arcanist. It's another fifth wheel class.
When I play an arcane warrior, spells are for:
- Protection (mage armor, shield, mirror image, displacement, spell turning, globe of invulnerability, protection from evil, resist energy)
- Movement (expeditious retreat, longstrider, feather fall, levitate, fly, overland flight, dimension door, teleport, plane shift)
- Buffs (True Strike, Heroism, Haste, False Life, Keen Edge, Bull's Strength)
- Other/Utility (Vampiric Touch for in combat healing, Detect Magic for arcanist flavor, See Invisibility and Dispel Magic for their ability with arcane magic to defend somewhat against magical means of attack, Message and Whispering wind for combat communications, Telekinesis for cinematic "arcane fighting")
My preference is for a class that can replace the fighter, but cannot replace the arcanist. Lower casting - with some early entry for spells specific to boosts to melee combat as well as some magus only spells similar to the paladin's beautiful Bless Weapon.
For all the people looking for a full BAB Magus more in line with Paladin or Ranger, you can probably (probably, mind!) balance something pretty close with the following archetype for the current Magus:
Warrior Magus:
The Warrior Magus finds simultaneous magic and blades to be too frenetic and distracting. She prefers to take her time with one or the other and and make sure she gets it right. This allows her exceptional precision with her melee attacks.
Spell Combat: A Warrior Magus does not receive Spell Combat, Improved Spell Combat, or Greater Spell Combat
Warrior Magus's Edge: Starting at 1st level, a Warrior Magus may use her Magus level in place of her base attack bonus to qualify for Combat feats that require a certain base attack bonus. If she has base attack bonus from other classes, she adds her Magus level to her base attack from those classes.
Fighter Training: A Warrior Magus receives Fighter Training at 4th level. Her effective Fighter level is equal to her Magus level - 3, rather than Magus level / 2.
Weapon Training: 5th level, 9th level, and 13th level, and 17th level, the Warrior Magus gains Weapon Training as the Fighter.
A few playtest notes.
1. -I don't see a problem with the Spellstrike wording. Instead of a touch attach, you are 'touching' with a melee attack.
2. -Fighter training is too weak to be meaningful and comes too late.
3. -Heavier armors don't really fit unless you can make a Magus that uses heavier weapons. A logical build is to be a light fighter & use a finesse weapon.
4. -Spell Combat is pretty useless at low levels. Since it is modeled after two weapon fighting, maybe the penalties should match that. A -4 to attacks is too big of a tax to a low level Magus.
5. -Arcane Weapon needs to function like the Arcane Bond for Wizards, but weapons only.
I really had no problems with the spell list as it is, except the lack of touch spells from core rules. I know that will be changed. I really didn't do much with the list, concentrating on using the slots in combat. I do think it would be a good idea to have a MA that lets you upgrade to ranged touch spells when using Spellstrike. Maybe available at 6th level, but might hold off to 9th.
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After looking it over for a while and thinking some more here are some comments:
1) The 3/4 BAB is needed to really meld the spell/sword aspect otherwise it gets too focused one way or the other and is not "gish" enough.
Okay, you've helped me clarify to myself my central reason for disliking the class - why it's not what I wanted.
<soapbox>
Martial Classes
Barbarian - mundane - natural
Cavalier - mundane - pet
Fighter - mundane - trained
Paladin - divine - gods (ish)
Ranger - divine - nature
Crossover Classes
Alchemist - arcane - items
Bard - arcane - skilled
Inquisitor - divine
Monk - mundane - specials
Rogue - mundane - skilled
Summoner - arcane - pet
Casting Classes
Cleric - divine - gods
Druid - divine - nature
Oracle - divine - natural
Sorceror - arcane - natural
Witch - arcane - trained
Wizard - arcane - trained
The hole in this is the lack of an arcane martial class...a class whose entire focus is martial ability - they just use some arcane training instead of military training or raging or divine inspiration or nature knowledge to achieve it.
The magus should be a martial character first. We have many arcane crossover classes. 3! We need an arcane martial class. The paladin or ranger should be the starting point to fill this hole - not the bard.
</soapbox>
The issues Jess is folks don't want that role, they want full BAB and 1st level casting. Even casting 0th level spells and you did not fill that role. The other two full BAB half casters do not gain spells till 4th, so this one would not gain spells to 4th.
And at that point its not a fighter/mage. Its a fighter with a wee bit ol magic, not a blending of two roles.
I suggest an aggressive letter writing campaign.
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The issues Jess is folks don't want that role, they want full BAB and 1st level casting. Even casting 0th level spells and you did not fill that role. The other two full BAB half casters do not gain spells till 4th, so this one would not gain spells to 4th.
And at that point its not a fighter/mage. Its a fighter with a wee bit ol magic, not a blending of two roles.
I think that's why the gish discussion has been so frustrating for people. There's a fundamental confusion over what is wanted.
If you really want a crossover class, then I think Bard (especially with the APG flavoring options now available) admirably fills the role.
I was frustrated with Paizo employees' constant insistence that Bards filled the martial arcanist's role because he wasn't martial enough - that's because for some reason the "martial arcane" crossover gave the impression that the hole in the class line up was something that could fill both roles. That makes little sense. What is needed is a class that fills the martial role, but does it with an arcane flair.
The magus right now is a bit of a mess because rather than focussing on how to do what a fighter, barbarian, paladin or ranger does, only with an arcane flair, we're focussing on a pure hybrid.
Maybe that's what some people want. It's not what I want. So I will lobby for what I want, now that I understand exactly where all the confusion for the last few months has come from.
Lobby away, but your not helping to improve the class at all. At this point in time its not gonna change, if they have not changed it in the months leading up to this they are not going to do so at this time.
I really disagree that the Magus needs more spells. Ecluding 0, by level 4, he has the ability to fling a spell per combat in a 4 combat day and at 6 he can fling 2. I tend to find a 2-3 combat adventuring day more common, and by 6th he can throw a spell almost every round. By the time he gets improved spell combat, he really can throw a spell almost every round. His abilities are not meant to be spammed.
Rather than giving him more spells, I would like to see an ability he can use that can bring up his DPR when not casting. He is really behind on this I feel. He is outdamaged significantly by a bard, which is an issue IMO since the bard is at the low end of being a compotent front line character. By mid levels, 8+, I think the class's power level is spot on, but earlier than that and spell combat just is not powerful enough. Without something to bring you up in melee, I feel you just fall too far behind.
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This is pretty much what I wanted and the other class that you want could be slapped in the book as well, but this playtest is about a Melee/Caster hybrid. Not a Fighter with some spells slapped on at higher levels.
They actually do about as much damage as bards do right now. This is a small problem, but its not as big as having 8 abilities you can take that all fight for the same swift action...
You literally drown in choices that all require you to do swift actions or immediate actions.
Critical Strike - needs memorization / preparation elaboration. As it's written, it sounds like I don't need to have a spell prepared to cast it with this ability.
Hastened Assault - the duration needs elaboration. A number or rounds equal to the sacrificed spell level? A number of minutes equal to the sacrificed spell level? I infer #1, but it's not 100% clear.
Fighter Training - I'd like to see this a bit earlier, but that's just my opinion. It would make the class more flexible. Most of the fighter feats require a minimum number of fighter levels, so their power is already checked. And having the option of these from level 2-6 on would let you be more of a fighter and less of a caster, by virtue of feat selection. Saving this until level 10 means that you have to be more of a caster. <3 choices.
Overall very nice, a vast improvement and Paizo'ification of the duskblade :D
P.S. I second the above notion that the class is inundated with swift actions, but I don't think that's necessarily bad. Every other class is inundated with standard actions. The bard has to choose between a ton of equally appealing choices every turn. Why not let the magus choose between as many swift actions? Maybe that's his thing...
The rub is that no three people want the same thing.
The thing is, the people who want a 3/4 BAB character with some arcane ability already have it. It's called the bard. And they've got all the variants in the APG, just in case the default bard flavor is too music-y for them.
Another bard isn't adding anything.
On the flip side, a Duskblade replacement -- a character that can actually fight, but has spells instead of fighter feats -- does not. The eldrtich knight tries, but it's too wanky in terms of power yo-yo in trying to qualify.
I agree with what Jess is asking for, specifically for the reason she described -- because that's the one possibility that DOESN'T already exist.
That said, Seeker's comment has some merit. Since when does Jason Bulmahn change his mind over something as major as BAB progression? He's always been open to feedback over minor class features, but never to stuff that's more fundamental than that. So I think the Magus will, in essence, give us another bard variant. And the gap that Jess alludes to will remain a gap unless we use the 3.5 Duskblade to fill it -- or make a homebrew class, as she's working on.
On the flip side, a Duskblade replacement -- a character that can actually fight, but has spells instead of fighter feats -- does not. The eldrtich knight tries, but it's too wanky in terms of power yo-yo in trying to qualify.
I agree with what Jess is asking for, specifically for the reason she described -- because that's the one possibility that DOESN'T already exist.
I think the Duskblade is different from what Jess is talking about above. The Duskblade is heavy on damaging and protection spells and light on movement/buff/utility spells (especially level 3+ spells).
So there are really three (at least) kinds of fighter/magic-users:
- generalist casters who can swing a sword as a backup (e.g. standard bard or cleric)
- sword-swingers who use magic to do more damage or a different kind of damage (e.g. duskblade)
- sword-swingers who use magic to be more well-rounded (e.g. maybe the arcane duelist or a psychic warrior?)
There are probably more variations. I don't know where the magus is supposed to fit. An eldritch knight could probably fit in any of those categories.
At any rate, there's clearly a demand for a class that can swing a sword (poorly, perhaps) and cast fireball (poorly, perhaps) dating back to the OD&D elf.
So there are really three (at least) kinds of fighter/magic-users:
- generalist casters who can swing a sword as a backup (e.g. standard bard or cleric or eldritch knight)
- sword-swingers who use magic to do more damage or a different kind of damage (e.g. duskblade)
- sword-swingers who use magic to be more well-rounded (e.g. maybe the arcane duelist or a psychic warrior?)
There are probably more variations. I don't know where the magus is supposed to fit. At any rate, there's clearly a demand for a class that can swing a sword (poorly, perhaps) and cast fireball (poorly, perhaps) dating back to the OD&D elf.
Their spells will define which of these functions they can fill. From the basic list so far the Magus reminds me of Suel Arcanamachs. They have everything: buff, control/debuff, damage. Combat will be used mostly to deliver debuffs, early buffs and damage whenever necessary. It seems particularly handy as a method to control and damage in the same round.
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The thing is, the people who want a 3/4 BAB character with some arcane ability already have it. It's called the bard. And they've got all the variants in the APG, just in case the default bard flavor is too music-y for them.
It's even worse than that.
There's the bard - with all it's alternate flavors. Most of them are still music based.
There's the summoner, with 3/4 BaB, his eidolon and his summon spell like abilities.
There's the alchemist, with 3/4 BaB progression and 6 levels of extracts instead of spells.
This will be the 4th such class.
So there are really three (at least) kinds of fighter/magic-users:
generalist casters who can swing a sword as a backup (e.g. standard bard or cleric)
sword-swingers who use magic to do more damage or a different kind of damage (e.g. duskblade)
sword-swingers who use magic to be more well-rounded (e.g. maybe the arcane duelist or a psychic warrior?)
I disagree that (2) and (3) need to be different things; just broaden the spell list a bit, and the same class can fill both roles. Because in either case, you've got a full BAB sword-swinger with arcane magic -- something that doesn't exist in any variant, except for a prestige class or 3.5 source -- as opposed to a modified bard chassis (which exists in numerous variants).
P.S. Jess -- been looking at Eldritch Knight/Arcane Warrior, and I've come to the same conclusions you did earlier. After playtesting, even lowering the caster level requirement doesn't help the power yoyo effect. I've come to believe that a base class is needed -- because the alternative is to make the prestige entry requirements something like "caster level 1st," at which point you're qualifying so early it might as well BE a base class to begin with.
Did a level 1... hated it. Didn't have spells or abilities to use, didn't have the ability to be useful in melee.
Other Medium BAB classes have one of the following:
Sneak attack
Spells and buffing
Bombs and extracts
Spells and "smite"
Spells, energy channel, domains
I have 2 first level spells and nothing.
I think the thing that needs to happen at level one is a bonus feat, and the ability to take power attack piranha strike or deadly aim at first level.
Idea for spellstrike -- have it allow you to apply power attack, deadly aim (etc) to your spells. Currently it has no use at level 1.