i might be by myself in this but i realized something that bugged me just a little about dnd and pathfinder, i realized that every character in the game has an option to make a melee/ranged attack or skill checks and even CMB/CMD rolls but only some classes have an option to use magic.
now i am not saying that i think this needs changed because i am sure i am by myself in feeling this way but it just bugged me that this mechanic in the game is class dependent.
it just seems to me that magic is as much of a base mechanic as base attack or skills and i am not saying every character should be able to cast spells like a wizard or sorcerer but shouldn't a character have the option to try and cast a spell.
like i said, im just complaining here and I'm sure i am by myself in this.
i might be by myself in this but i realized something that bugged me just a little about dnd and pathfinder, i realized that every character in the game has an option to make a melee/ranged attack or skill checks and even CMB/CMD rolls but only some classes have an option to use magic.
now i am not saying that i think this needs changed because i am sure i am by myself in feeling this way but it just bugged me that this mechanic in the game is class dependent.
it just seems to me that magic is as much of a base mechanic as base attack or skills and i am not saying every character should be able to cast spells like a wizard or sorcerer but shouldn't a character have the option to try and cast a spell.
like i said, im just complaining here and I'm sure i am by myself in this.
Check out incantations. Zombie Sky Press did two very excellent PDFs on this subject, Spirit Magic and Incantations in Theory and Practice.
that's just one thing that bugs me is that for "non-casters" to use magic it requires an item with magic in it and a skill check.
I agree with TriOmegaZero, I think UMD and even a healthy dose of Sleight of Hand is for those who don't have a primary arcane/divine class.
Also, while everyone has the option to swing melee or shoot ranged attacks, it doesn't mean they're any good at it. That 5th level wizard CAN run into combat with his dagger or that 5th level cleric CAN shoot a crowwsbow into combat... chances are they're gonna fail, even greater chances are that they had something better to do.
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I think, in The Next Edition according to TOZ, I would have a unified spell progression chart ala Trailblazer. Spellcasting classes would have their list of spells available, and could cast up to the limit of their level as per the usual. After that, they would have a chance of failure. Non-spellcasting classes could learn a few spells, but not having access to the chart, automatically have a chance for failure.
Thus, a wizard and sorcerer would have a limit of X. The wizard would be allowed to prepare more spells compared to the sorcerer's set list, but if he wanted to cast a single spell more that the number of times he prepared, he would incur failure chance no matter how many free castings he had left. The sorcerer would get bonus castings to allow him to cast more spells before incurring failure chance, and could cast in any combination. The fighter meanwhile could learn a spell and try to cast it with failure chance.
Just putting this down so I don't forget it. Also, spells would be balanced on a per encounter schedule.
Hmmmm . . . . there might be room for a spinoff thread here, but the first thing that came to mind as I was reading the original post is one thing that has always bugged me: regardless of the character, class and level, if you have one single hit point left, you can attack as if you were at full strength. Yes, I know the game is about the suspension of disbelief on a large level, but this just bugs the hell out of me.
true and i see your point but my complaint is based on the fact that "non-casters" cant try without something already magical.
my complaint is that "non-casters" cant try at all even if it means they will fail to cast a spell 90% of the time.
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regardless of the character, class and level, if you have one single hit point left, you can attack as if you were at full strength.
In Kirth Gersen's game we played with anyone under half HP gaining the fatigued status and taking a -1 to all rolls. Once you were under one-fourth HP, you were exhausted and took a -3 to all rolls. You are welcome to steal that one.
Hmmmm . . . . there might be room for a spinoff thread here, but the first thing that came to mind as I was reading the original post is one thing that has always bugged me: regardless of the character, class and level, if you have one single hit point left, you can attack as if you were at full strength. Yes, I know the game is about the suspension of disbelief on a large level, but this just bugs the hell out of me.
i totally see what you are saying and i don't disagree with you on that
Director of Narrative
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...but only some classes have an option to use magic.....Check out incantations. Zombie Sky Press did two very excellent PDFs on this subject, Spirit Magic and Incantations in Theory and Practice.
What she said.
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regardless of the character, class and level, if you have one single hit point left, you can attack as if you were at full strength.In Kirth Gersen's game we played with anyone under half HP gaining the fatigued status and taking a -1 to all rolls. Once you were under one-fourth HP, you were exhausted and took a -3 to all rolls. You are welcome to steal that one.
SAGA edition Star Wars RPG has the condition track, very similar.
have you had a look at the hero point rules ?
you can use them to cast a spell higher than or could normally cast or if you can't cast spell allows you to cast a low level spell.
also there is multiclassing
I level of a caster class means you can use wands/staves etc and don't need a UMD check. and for the most part 1 level won't drastically alter how your character plays.
If often thought of a system like you suggest where there are no classes and instead you "buy" class features with a point buy style of pool
so you buy d10 hit dice
you buy full BAB
you buy bonus feats
you buy slow caster progression to 7th level
etc
of course some combinations won't be possible due to costs.
the other system that does this is Gestalt
where you mix melee and caster into one class with d10 and full BAB with full casting.
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true and i see your point but my complaint is based on the fact that "non-casters" cant try without something already magical.
my complaint is that "non-casters" cant try at all even if it means they will fail to cast a spell 90% of the time.
Why should they be able to? If you don't have magic in your blood and haven't studied magical spells and powers, how would you even try to cast a spell? By saying "Boogity-Boo" and wiggling your fingers madly? No, you would talk to your buddy the wizard and start learning from him some of the intricacies of tapping into the magical grid, including the detailed gestures, mental focus, and precise vocalizations needed to create a desired effect. Then you write "/wizard 1" on your character sheet after your chosen class, roll a crappy hit die, and pick a couple of spells that you learned to cast from your wizardly buddy.
It's like asking someone who is a pro-wrestler to write down a complex calculus equation and explain it's usage. He would('ve) need to study very hard to be able to do it. Pathfinder and D&D in general assume that if you spend the time studying something you are taking a level in that class.You study how to sneak attack someone, you become a rogue.
You study how to hit someone and stun them, you become a monk.
You learn to harness your anger to make you tougher in combat, barbarian.
The only way to truly get around all that is to tear apart the classes and buy individual talents that make up the multitude of classes with a pool of points....GURPS it is then. Either that or houserule something and beware of the goofy munchkin that takes the rule and runs...
i didnt realize that "non-casters" could use hero points to cast low level spells.
im not saying i want to point buy my class im just saying that there should be an option to try to cast spells for "non-casters"
true and i see your point but my complaint is based on the fact that "non-casters" cant try without something already magical.
my complaint is that "non-casters" cant try at all even if it means they will fail to cast a spell 90% of the time.
Why should they be able to? If you don't have magic in your blood and haven't studied magical spells and powers, how would you even try to cast a spell? By saying "Boogity-Boo" and wiggling your fingers madly? No, you would talk to your buddy the wizard and start learning from him some of the intricacies of tapping into the magical grid, including the detailed gestures, mental focus, and precise vocalizations needed to create a desired effect. Then you write "/wizard 1" on your character sheet after your chosen class, roll a crappy hit die, and pick a couple of spells that you learned to cast from your wizardly buddy.
It's like asking someone who is a pro-wrestler to write down a complex calculus equation and explain it's usage. He would('ve) need to study very hard to be able to do it. Pathfinder and D&D in general assume that if you spend the time studying something you are taking a level in that class.
You study how to sneak attack someone, you become a rogue.
You study how to hit someone and stun them, you become a monk.
You learn to harness your anger to make you tougher in combat, barbarian.The only way to truly get around all that is to tear apart the classes and buy individual talents that make up the multitude of classes with a pool of points....GURPS it is then. Either that or houserule something and beware of the goofy munchkin that takes the rule and runs...
that argument could easily be made for why full casters like wizards shouldn't get a base attack bonus at all and should be stuck at +0 for all 20 levels
I believe there are a few things characters can do...
Rogue talents and, I think, there are a couple of feats in the Advanced Player's Guide.
It's difficult, but possible.
acutally that reminds me you can get spell like abilities from several sources , couple of races get them but
horizon walker d10 full BAB can get you 3+WIS/day spell like abilites at your character level , stuff like charm person, charm monster, dimension door, fly etc etc
being full BAB won't break your BAB progression or HP's
The general argument is the amount of study required. The APG allows you to take some 0th level spells as a feat. It'd also be possible to write that as a trait.
On of the games I played in (It was 3rd ed), every player got a number of cantrips per day equal to their Int modifier. If you had a +4 int modifier, you got could case 3 cantrips and a 1st level spell. This was because magic was just easier to learn in the game world.
There was some issue with the 1st level spells. Specifically, True Strike ended up being powerful at low levels. At high levels, the spells made little difference.
I hate Gestalt Characters.
4th ed. D&D has every bloody character being able to pick locks.
I mentioned 4th Edition BECAUSE I want this topic closed.
Congratulations, you found another topic to avoid if you don't like arguments.
Make a choice. Fighter feats, spellcaster feats, or Rogue skills.
A jack of all trades as a class would have mediocre attacks, all skills as class skills, a slow spell progression, and no bonus feats.
The general argument is the amount of study required. The APG allows you to take some 0th level spells as a feat. It'd also be possible to write that as a trait.
On of the games I played in (It was 3rd ed), every player got a number of cantrips per day equal to their Int modifier. If you had a +4 int modifier, you got could case 3 cantrips and a 1st level spell. This was because magic was just easier to learn in the game world.
There was some issue with the 1st level spells. Specifically, True Strike ended up being powerful at low levels. At high levels, the spells made little difference.
considering most games never reach 20 and when they do you don't play level 20 for all that long
Wizard 1/ Fighter 10+ vs Fighter 11+ has almost no impact on being able to play as a fighter but gives you some spell options and fluff
so you could even just give every player one "free" caster level that dosent add to thier total levels.
So everyone gets basic casting
to keep it fair full casters get to start at first level with d10 and +1 BAB and then progress normally.
In my interpretation of the rules as written, any class level in a class with spells per day reflects some level of "initiation" in the ways of magic — that is, the ability to create and store spells and keep the energy around on your person to cast later.
Some people are very good at converting this energy into a small number of specific spells (spontaneous) some lack that ability but can choose the spell's type from a large list at creation(prepared).
Some have the power to create and hold spell auras on their own (arcane), and some require the help of the gods to tap into that creative force (divine).
Those who can trigger spells but not create them are using UMD, which is available to all classes.
To me, requiring initiation to create spells and hold them on your person is no stranger than requiring a Barbarian level to rage.
I hate Gestalt Characters.
4th ed. D&D has every bloody character being able to pick locks.
I mentioned 4th Edition BECAUSE I want this topic closed.
Congratulations, you found another topic to avoid if you don't like arguments.
Make a choice. Fighter feats, spellcaster feats, or Rogue skills.
A jack of all trades as a class would have mediocre attacks, all skills as class skills, a slow spell progression, and no bonus feats.
if you don't like the topic then don't comment on it, im sorry but i cant stand posts like this, you don't help the conversation and all you are doing is basically telling people to stop talking about things you don't care about.
sorry it just got to me. i apologize
I think UMD is supposed to cover that. I know that isn't exactly what you are looking for. You are right that there really isn't anything for rituals any fool can try to perform. Might be a good subject for Paizo to explore.
I like the idea that it's fools that would try them. (With fun consequences to follow.)
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Check out incantations. Zombie Sky Press did two very excellent PDFs on this subject, Spirit Magic and Incantations in Theory and Practice.
I'm interested...
Do any of them touch on a sort of multi-step form of ritual that requires different sorts of expertise and material elements along the lines of what Conan RPG touched on with its magic?
That is, one ritual might require Perform checks from four dancers, an idol, and the ritualistic pouring of salt in a specific pattern towards the end, with things that can possibly go wrong(or unexpectedly right) if the ritual is performed incorrectly. Basically something that treats ritualistic magic, or at least the potentially dangerous sorts, as an encounter in and of itself.
Sounds like a way to get non-caster types some mystical mojo they can access and making evocative types of magic available to the players that probably wouldn't work as simple, straightforward spells.
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I don't play Star Wars, is there a preview of the mechanic I can look up?
SAGA edition Star Wars RPG has the condition track, very similar.
This is a pretty good run down.
regardless of the character, class and level, if you have one single hit point left, you can attack as if you were at full strength.In Kirth Gersen's game we played with anyone under half HP gaining the fatigued status and taking a -1 to all rolls. Once you were under one-fourth HP, you were exhausted and took a -3 to all rolls. You are welcome to steal that one.
Do you find this hard to track? I've thought about implementing something like this on occasion, but I always try to cleave to simplicity since I'm not sure my players will be on top of keeping track of their "fatigue status". Do you apply it to monsters too?
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Do you find this hard to track? I've thought about implementing something like this on occasion, but I always try to cleave to simplicity since I'm not sure my players will be on top of keeping track of their "fatigue status". Do you apply it to monsters too?
I admit I had a little trouble remembering to apply the penalties, but that was my own fault. Kirth did apply it to all monsters as far as I know. He made mention of it often enough that I felt like I could see the fighters having an effect on enemy performance.
my point of view is that magic is built in this game as part of the architecture of classes just like the base attack bonus and the skills but it is class only for specific classes and that is what bugs me, all characters can use skills and attack but magic is class specific and if its not in your class you cant do it.
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my point of view is that magic is built in this game as part of the architecture of classes just like the base attack bonus and the skills but it is class only for specific classes and that is what bugs me, all characters can use skills and attack but magic is class specific and if its not in your class you cant do it.
really? who doesnt get an option for magic in the core? fighters, barbarians. monks get things like Dimension door, rogues can get a 0 and a 1st level spell.
how about the apg? cavalier (alchemists are casters)
thats a grand total of 3 classes that have no option of magical capability. 3 classes that should be spending their down time honing their skill in combat.
thats why we can multiclass. fighters dont spend their time researching magical mumbo jumbo, and if they do its to take a level of wizard.
you cant have your cake and eat it too
Oh course he can...just as long as he stays the hell away from my pie!
you are missing my point, its not about gaining spells my problem is about not having an option to try and cast a spell.
this thread isn't about me wanting all classes to be casters it is about me being bugged by the fact that the game gives everyone the ability to attempt skills and to attempt attack rolls but only some classes get to attempt spells and usually with little chance not to succeed at them.
my problem isn't that sorcerers and wizards are the best at casting arcane spells or that only 3 classes don't have any class special abilities to cast spells, what my problem is with is that magic is added on to base classes the same way base attack bonuses are added on and the same way skills are added on and that even if they would fail the majority of the time a wizard can make a melee attack but a fighter cant attempt to cast a spell.
i don't see why a fighter cant pick up his unconscious wizard friends spell book and attempt to cast one if his spells.
this isn't about multi-classing or giving fighters base spells, it is just about the fact that they cant attempt it.
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Again, UMD is the closest thing you have to it. And using that skill, your fighter CAN attempt to cast from his wizard friend's spellbook. (Mr. Wizard might be upset to have a spell permanently lost from his book, but that's the price of survival I guess.) The fighter just can't try to cast a spell without a magical item on hand, which I don't have a problem with. If he wants to cast a spell, he should get something together that might reasonably let him bend reality to his whim.
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true and i see your point but my complaint is based on the fact that "non-casters" cant try without something already magical.
my complaint is that "non-casters" cant try at all even if it means they will fail to cast a spell 90% of the time.
Why should they be able to? If you don't have magic in your blood and haven't studied magical spells and powers, how would you even try to cast a spell? By saying "Boogity-Boo" and wiggling your fingers madly? No, you would talk to your buddy the wizard and start learning from him some of the intricacies of tapping into the magical grid, including the detailed gestures, mental focus, and precise vocalizations needed to create a desired effect. Then you write "/wizard 1" on your character sheet after your chosen class, roll a crappy hit die, and pick a couple of spells that you learned to cast from your wizardly buddy.
It's like asking someone who is a pro-wrestler to write down a complex calculus equation and explain it's usage. He would('ve) need to study very hard to be able to do it. Pathfinder and D&D in general assume that if you spend the time studying something you are taking a level in that class.
You study how to sneak attack someone, you become a rogue.
You study how to hit someone and stun them, you become a monk.
You learn to harness your anger to make you tougher in combat, barbarian.The only way to truly get around all that is to tear apart the classes and buy individual talents that make up the multitude of classes with a pool of points....GURPS it is then. Either that or houserule something and beware of the goofy munchkin that takes the rule and runs...
+100
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that argument could easily be made for why full casters like wizards shouldn't get a base attack bonus at all and should be stuck at +0 for all 20 levelstrue and i see your point but my complaint is based on the fact that "non-casters" cant try without something already magical.
my complaint is that "non-casters" cant try at all even if it means they will fail to cast a spell 90% of the time.
Why should they be able to? If you don't have magic in your blood and haven't studied magical spells and powers, how would you even try to cast a spell? By saying "Boogity-Boo" and wiggling your fingers madly? No, you would talk to your buddy the wizard and start learning from him some of the intricacies of tapping into the magical grid, including the detailed gestures, mental focus, and precise vocalizations needed to create a desired effect. Then you write "/wizard 1" on your character sheet after your chosen class, roll a crappy hit die, and pick a couple of spells that you learned to cast from your wizardly buddy.
It's like asking someone who is a pro-wrestler to write down a complex calculus equation and explain it's usage. He would('ve) need to study very hard to be able to do it. Pathfinder and D&D in general assume that if you spend the time studying something you are taking a level in that class.
You study how to sneak attack someone, you become a rogue.
You study how to hit someone and stun them, you become a monk.
You learn to harness your anger to make you tougher in combat, barbarian.The only way to truly get around all that is to tear apart the classes and buy individual talents that make up the multitude of classes with a pool of points....GURPS it is then. Either that or houserule something and beware of the goofy munchkin that takes the rule and runs...
I disagree. My 4yo can swing a short sword, but can't do it very effectively. However, if the badguy stands right there, eventually she will hit and drive it thru him.
See, you are trying to compare a physical action which anyone in any sort of physical state can do....its like trying to ask why EVERYONE can walk, but only certain people can successfully do brain surgery.
Walking is simply a base movement, as is swinging a sword, but brain surgery is a learned ability. Even sorcerers with their innate magic born into them have to spend time learning how to harness their powers...thus the low skill points.
The BAB progression of the various classes addresses the training and base chance to hit when swinging a sword. Wizards and Sorcerers and whatnot get a bonus eventually because its assumed that as an adventurer they either pick up a stick/sword whatever and at least learn how to hold one and point the stabby stabby end in someone, or by listening and watching the fighters/barbs/fullBAB people spar in the morning/training/fighting they have picked up the basics.
I guess I dont understand why you want class homogenization so darn badly.
like i said from the start this is just me complaining about something that bugged me, i don't think it necessarily needs fixed its just something that bugs me.
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I hate Gestalt Characters.
4th ed. D&D has every bloody character being able to pick locks.
I mentioned 4th Edition BECAUSE I want this topic closed.
Congratulations, you found another topic to avoid if you don't like arguments.
Make a choice. Fighter feats, spellcaster feats, or Rogue skills.
A jack of all trades as a class would have mediocre attacks, all skills as class skills, a slow spell progression, and no bonus feats.
+1
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Again, UMD is the closest thing you have to it. And using that skill, your fighter CAN attempt to cast from his wizard friend's spellbook. (Mr. Wizard might be upset to have a spell permanently lost from his book, but that's the price of survival I guess.) The fighter just can't try to cast a spell without a magical item on hand, which I don't have a problem with. If he wants to cast a spell, he should get something together that might reasonably let him bend reality to his whim.
you cant just cast a spell out of a spell book. they're not scrolls
Again, UMD is the closest thing you have to it. And using that skill, your fighter CAN attempt to cast from his wizard friend's spellbook. (Mr. Wizard might be upset to have a spell permanently lost from his book, but that's the price of survival I guess.) The fighter just can't try to cast a spell without a magical item on hand, which I don't have a problem with. If he wants to cast a spell, he should get something together that might reasonably let him bend reality to his whim.you cant just cast a spell out of a spell book. they're not scrolls
We have always used a house rule that you can. If it is your own spell book, then you cast it just fine. If it is not you need to make a linguistics check to be able to do so. it must be a spell you are capable of casting. It uses up the spell just as if it was a scroll.
I have also, in the past made this a feat.
Either method allows a sorcerer or other character to have some use out of a stolen or looted spell book.