just an odd thing which I think I'm reading right.
say you have greater TWF feats and shield master
not only does your shield enchament apply to attacks you make but it takes no peanlty to attack rolls when using a weapon.
this means you shield is acutally +2 better off than your 1h weapon
since your still -2 while two weapon fighting but shield master even gets rid of that -2
sounds werid but I think its right. anyone else come up with the same ?
That depends on what type of shield u r using. If its heavy, ur gonna take a big negative using it as ur offhand weapon. If its light u may be able to get away with it. Idk what it says bout using ur shield as a weapon with enhancement if u get to only apply that when u take a standard action to attack with only the shield. And remember when u attack with a shield, at least I believe it works this way and it would make sense if it does, u lose ur shield bonus to ac since u are using it for offense instead of focusing its use on defense.
That depends on what type of shield u r using. If its heavy, ur gonna take a big negative using it as ur offhand weapon. If its light u may be able to get away with it. Idk what it says bout using ur shield as a weapon with enhancement if u get to only apply that when u take a standard action to attack with only the shield. And remember when u attack with a shield, at least I believe it works this way and it would make sense if it does, u lose ur shield bonus to ac since u are using it for offense instead of focusing its use on defense.
improved shield bash lets you keep the AC
Shield Master
Benefit: You do not suffer any penalties on attack rolls made with a shield while you are wielding another weapon. Add your shield’s enhancement bonus to attack and damage rolls made with the shield as if it were a weapon enhancement bonus.
Sweet well then I guess it just depends on heavy or light shield and its comparison to ur size.
Also look at what shield bash says. Does it say u can only shield bash or u can use any number of ur multiple attacks as a shield bash?
Sweet well then I guess it just depends on heavy or light shield and its comparison to ur size.
in either case the -4 or -2 would both be negated
although in the build i was working on it was a light quickdraw shield
Also look at what shield bash says. Does it say u can only shield bash or u can use any number of ur multiple attacks as a shield bash?
Shield Bash Attacks
You can bash an opponent with a shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. Used this way, a shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon.
For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon and treat a light shield as a light weapon.
It is my understanding that shield master removes the penalities from the shield, period. Whether or not you were using heavy/light shield and/or light/one-hand in MH would only affect the penalty to your weapon hand (IIRC). I could be wrong, but that's how i remember interpreting it.
thats how i read it too, but just seems ...odd :)
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That depends on what type of shield u r using. If its heavy, ur gonna take a big negative using it as ur offhand weapon. If its light u may be able to get away with it. Idk what it says bout using ur shield as a weapon with enhancement if u get to only apply that when u take a standard action to attack with only the shield. And remember when u attack with a shield, at least I believe it works this way and it would make sense if it does, u lose ur shield bonus to ac since u are using it for offense instead of focusing its use on defense.
Um... I don't think there is a single thing about what you said that is correct.
With the requisite feats you keep your AC when bashing, in addition when TWF with a shield you never take any penalties from TWF on the shield attack meaning you can use a heavy shield with no penalty. The one handed weapon you apply the -2 as per normal. Also with this line it basically means that whenever you attack with your shield you also get a free special bull rush attack when you hit.
Mighty fun playstyle for sure.
Note: with a heavy shield, your main hand penalty is still at a -4 rather than a -2.
I think for regular multiple attacks due to ur BAB u won't incur any negatives. As for two weapon fighting, u would still take negatives due to getting the extra attcks, although u can offset the negative with ur enhancement bonus. It doesn't make the -2 go away, ur just better able to handle the negative due to ur feats.
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Note: with a heavy shield, your main hand penalty is still at a -4 rather than a -2.
I think that's dumb personally and I never enforce it (except for that munchkin who "misread" that all penalties were gone). If they use a 1h weapon and a heavy shield the penalty is -4; if they use a light weapon and heavy shield the penalty is -2. As long as the combo is 1h/light, I don't care what hand they're in.
In regards to the comment about my post, for the not taking any negatives due to the shield from TWF u basically take no negatives at all. And that doesn't seem right. I don't have my books in front of me so I'm just using my knowledge of the rules to see what sounds right. But being able to make extra attacks with TWF with no negatives, whether using a shield or not, seems too broken. I don't think it works quite like that. U basically get all the extra attacks with no penalties.
Ok so I just reread it so when using TWF with a shield, u treat ur shield as the main weapon and ur main hand as ur off hand then?
Note: with a heavy shield, your main hand penalty is still at a -4 rather than a -2.I think that's dumb personally and I never enforce it (except for that munchkin who "misread" that all penalties were gone). If they use a 1h weapon and a heavy shield the penalty is -4; if they use a light weapon and heavy shield the penalty is -2. As long as the combo is 1h/light, I don't care what hand they're in.
So your houserule is that the shield is not always an off-hand weapon, but can be the main-hand weapon instead?
I feel like that makes Shield Mastery a much more powerful option than otherwise.|
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Ok so I just reread it so when using TWF with a shield, u treat ur shield as the main weapon and ur main hand as ur off hand then?
There is no real distinction between main hand and offhand attacks except that offhand attacks are the stimuli for the penalties. You can make main hand attacks and off hand attacks with a sword and vice-versa.
Ok well then the shield feats are treating ur shield attacks as the main hand and ur weapon ur off hand. That makes sense. Sorry if what I wrote was confusing. I never said I was right or this is how it works, I just gave what I thought would be right based off of my game knowledge without my books in front of me. I usually play sorcerers any ways. :-P
In regards to dual shields, I'm about to run a game where one of the players wants to do that. Not for TWF but one attack and one defense. Idk y though.
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Note: with a heavy shield, your main hand penalty is still at a -4 rather than a -2.I think that's dumb personally and I never enforce it (except for that munchkin who "misread" that all penalties were gone). If they use a 1h weapon and a heavy shield the penalty is -4; if they use a light weapon and heavy shield the penalty is -2. As long as the combo is 1h/light, I don't care what hand they're in.So your houserule is that the shield is not always an off-hand weapon, but can be the main-hand weapon instead?
I feel like that makes Shield Mastery a much more powerful option than otherwise.
No, it still only gets 1/2 strength, my houserule is more of a modification to TWF. As long as you have 1h/light combo, I don't care which hand is holding them (as long as they are held that way consistently).
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Ahh, so I assume you deal with double slice as normal still right?
No, it still only gets 1/2 strength, my houserule is more of a modification to TWF. As long as you have 1h/light combo, I don't care which hand is holding them (as long as they are held that way consistently).
yep...double slice would give full strength to the shield (if I'm remembering the feat correctly).
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yep...double slice would give full strength to the shield (if I'm remembering the feat correctly).Ahh, so I assume you deal with double slice as normal still right?
No, it still only gets 1/2 strength, my houserule is more of a modification to TWF. As long as you have 1h/light combo, I don't care which hand is holding them (as long as they are held that way consistently).
Yup that's the one.
No, it still only gets 1/2 strength, my houserule is more of a modification to TWF. As long as you have 1h/light combo, I don't care which hand is holding them (as long as they are held that way consistently).
I think that's a reasonable house rule, but note that it does make the Shield Mastery feat line better. One of the limiting factors of that line is that there's no way to get the max benefits out of it (an extra +1 to attack and to AC from using heavy shield) without taking the -4 penalty to your primary weapon attack. As written, there was no way around this, but your houserule gives us a way to essentially take -1 to primary weapon damage (the typical difference between comparable light and one-handed weapons) to gain a +2 to primary weapon attack not available in RAW.
Hmm. I don't have my book available but it sounds like you can't have your shield be the main hand weapon and say a short sword be the off-hand weapon.
As written, the rules specify that your shield bash attack is an off-hand weapon, all the time, period.
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Hmm. I don't have my book available but it sounds like you can't have your shield be the main hand weapon and say a short sword be the off-hand weapon.As written, the rules specify that your shield bash attack is an off-hand weapon, all the time, period.
Yes but James himself has shown his face a number of times. You as a player decide which attack is offhand, it isn't made for you. Reading from the RAW as strict like the only way to attack with a shield is when you ARE two weapon fighting, which makes no sense whatsoever. The only reason the wording was as such is because it assumes most players would favor a proper weapon for attacks over the shield.
On a side note the shield master feat that lets you use the enchament on a shield for attacking , does this not mean the cheapest +5 weapon is acutally a +5 shield using shield master feat ?
since armor enchaments are cheaper than weapon enchantments 50k vs 25k
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On a side note the shield master feat that lets you use the enchament on a shield for attacking , does this not mean the cheapest +5 weapon is acutally a +5 shield using shield master feat ?
since armor enchaments are cheaper than weapon enchantments 50k vs 25k
Yes and no...you would get the straight +5 to hit and damage, but in order to get any special effects (flaming, shocking, etc.) you would have to enchant the shield to at least +1 weapon enchant and then start adding those on at the weapon cost. I've done the math and it still ends up being cheaper (by ALOT) to get a +5 flaming, shocking, icy, etc. weapon...you just have to go about it differently.
Would it be possible to add enchantments such as frost, flaming etc to shield spikes put on the shield?
I'm putting together a dwarven fighter that uses a shield as his primary weapon, kukri in the off hand. (Arabic Dwarf)
that acutally bring up an intersting point
since shield spikes are enchanted seperately
you have +5 on the shield, which then get applied as attack and damage with shield master and then you can add frost/flamming etc to shield spikes at the mere cost of +2 enchament on the spikes
effectily getting an effective +7 weapon for the price of a +5 shield and +2 weapon
Haha! I don't think that it would work that way, otherwise you could go dual +20 shields (at great expense!)
It occurs to me that shield enhancement bonuses are way cheaper than weapons, which would lead me to think that: If you use shield spikes you take their enhancements *instead* of the base shield.
Shields can't have weapon enchantments on them, so the only way to get more specialized damage would be to enchant the spikes. Though, since you've spent all these feats, it's probably worth paying extra for that shield.
Haha! I don't think that it would work that way, otherwise you could go dual +20 shields (at great expense!)
It occurs to me that shield enhancement bonuses are way cheaper than weapons, which would lead me to think that: If you use shield spikes you take their enhancements *instead* of the base shield.
Shields can't have weapon enchantments on them, so the only way to get more specialized damage would be to enchant the spikes. Though, since you've spent all these feats, it's probably worth paying extra for that shield.
so probably a better combination would be a pure +5 shield for bypassing all damage reduction with your offhand attacks and then a main weapon with special bonus damage and effects
I didn't think the bonus to hit on the shield & the spikes would stack. But I've got some +2 frost spikes on a +3 shield (with a bashing enhancement), and was just thinking that I'd use em in certain scenarios such as combating fire creatures. One of them take which ever is better sorta deals.
I didn't think the bonus to hit on the shield & the spikes would stack. But I've got some +2 frost spikes on a +3 shield (with a bashing enhancement), and was just thinking that I'd use em in certain scenarios such as combating fire creatures. One of them take which ever is better sorta deals.
or get to choose which one you want to use ?
say shield is +5
and spikes are keen and flamming
could either use a a +5 attack or keen/flamming attack with shield master feat
or get to choose which one you want to use ?
say shield is +5
and spikes are keen and flamming
could either use a a +5 attack or keen/flamming attack with shield master feat
Thats what I was thinking/hoping. Just joining a group & they're halfway through Legacy of Fire. So I'm putting together a 11th level character to join up.
Plus all these shield feats appeases my Captain America obsession.
or get to choose which one you want to use ?
say shield is +5
and spikes are keen and flamming
could either use a a +5 attack or keen/flamming attack with shield master feat
Thats what I was thinking/hoping. Just joining a group & they're halfway through Legacy of Fire. So I'm putting together a 11th level character to join up.
Plus all these shield feats appeases my Captain America obsession.
ranger is a nice way to qualify for the greater two weapon fighting without having a 19DEX whic gives you shield 3 attacks
It's been posted that the intent was only the base shield bonus gets added to atk/dmg with Shield Master, so +1 or +2, not +7.
It does seem clear to me that although the intent is to negate the penalties and add the bonus to off hand, thus if using a heavy shield with SM your 2WF atk modifiers would be -4main/+2off, but if you sacrificed the presumably better actual weapon choice and made your shield primary (and chose the interpretation of shield attacks that does not force them all to be offhand attacks), then you could get with SM +2main/-2off with a light weapon. Of course, all shield attack builds are mitigated someone by choosing a 20/x2 weapon and an intensive use of your feats.
Regarding the 2 shield builds, the majority of folks deem the concept lame despite the vocal minority's support of it, but even if you allow it, remember that the shield bonuses will not stack with each other, and that since shield as far as i can recall is listed as an item slot, only one of the shields will get any of their shield magical effects, being only useful for weapon effects on its spikes instead.