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The answer is that the devs anticipated sneaky players activating the move action version then claiming they get all the info the full version gives.
That's already covered by "single item or individual" though.
Well, if we are treating it as a totally different action just because it is a new sentence, then I'd point out that a barbarian could (by the same logic) refuse to end her rage as a free action and thus not become fatigued.
Rage (Ex): A barbarian can call upon inner reserves of strength and ferocity, granting her additional combat prowess. Starting at 1st level, a barbarian can rage for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + her Constitution modifier. At each level after 1st, she can rage for 2 additional rounds. Temporary increases to Constitution, such as those gained from rage and spells like bear's endurance, do not increase the total number of rounds that a barbarian can rage per day. A barbarian can enter rage as a free action. The total number of rounds of rage per day is renewed after resting for 8 hours, although these hours do not need to be consecutive.
While in rage, a barbarian gains a +4 morale bonus to her Strength and Constitution, as well as a +2 morale bonus on Will saves. In addition, she takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class. The increase to Constitution grants the barbarian 2 hit points per Hit Dice, but these disappear when the rage ends and are not lost first like temporary hit points. While in rage, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except Acrobatics, Fly, Intimidate, and Ride) or any ability that requires patience or concentration.
A barbarian can end her rage as a free action and is fatigued after rage for a number of rounds equal to 2 times the number of rounds spent in the rage. A barbarian cannot enter a new rage while fatigued or exhausted but can otherwise enter rage multiple times during a single encounter or combat. If a barbarian falls unconscious, her rage immediately ends, placing her in peril of death.
The fatigue is part of ending it as a free action, so if they don't end it and instead just let their rage rounds run out, they won't be fatigued.
No, I don't hold to that interpretation, either.
By contrast, Bardic Performance, Channel Energy, the Artifice Domain power, the Madness Domain power, Wild Shape, Stunning Fist (monk ability rather than feat), Ki Pool, Lay on Hands, Master Strike, Mutagen, and Judgment all allow you to do multiple things with the same ability... and clearly spell that out, unlike with Detect Evil.
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We're not treating it as a totally different ability because it's a new sentence, we're treating it that way because it makes sense!
Nobody, not me, not you, not anyone else thinks that you can get round a barbarian's fatigue that way! Because (and this is the point for both) it wouldn't make sense! Reprinting 'rage' was just a massive waste of time and space which did nothing to advance either side of the argument!
As I pointed out, re-reading the paladin's Detect Evil ability is of no help in settling the issue, as it can very reasonably be read either way. Trying to split semantic hairs is not the way forward in this case; we all have plenty of experience of the Pathfinder devs writing ambiguously worded rules. Trying to pull a semantic rabbit out of the hat in no way gets us closer to the writer's intent. The only thing we can do is wait for some kind of official answer, and use our own judgements in our own campaigns.
Best to talk with players before it comes up in the game. Our judgements should be about how the game goes forward, not about proving (once again) that writing these rules has an inbuilt weakness due to human fallibility; while the writer knows what he means, and while what he writes will (usually) result in an ability which works as he intends if people read it the way he intended when he wrote it, it frequently won't occur to him that there is any other way to interpret what he wrote!
I don't think people are stupid for reading this ability the other way. It's not an unreasonable reading. Nor is the way I read it. There are enough respondents in this thread who show support for each case to conclude that either case is credible.
After thinking about both possibilities I think that using them as two separate but related abilities makes for a better game. A paladin should spend his actions hitting the bad guys like any other front line warrior, not walking round in combat like a lighthouse. I wholeheartedly believe this is as intended and we'll continue to play our games that way until an official opinion comes down, preferably from the original writer or as an official errata. If other games go the other way I won't think they're stupid.
Bumping this, because we still don't have an official answer. It came up in my last game with a new twist - an invisible enemy. My players wanted the paladin to be able to use a move action to focus and gain the exact location of the invisible enemy, and I said that to focus you had to know where the enemy was already, thus requiring the three rounds of normal detect evil.
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Bumping this, because we still don't have an official answer. It came up in my last game with a new twist - an invisible enemy. My players wanted the paladin to be able to use a move action to focus and gain the exact location of the invisible enemy, and I said that to focus you had to know where the enemy was already, thus requiring the three rounds of normal detect evil.
I'm on record as believing that the move action/single target version is usable in isolation, and nothing has changed there.
However, whatever side of the fence you may be, it must be said that, in order to use it that way, you must be able to target the...er...target! This usually means being able to see the target.
Detect evil/magic do not detect invisible as completely as some people hope. If correctly used the best they can hope to do is locate the square that an invisible creature occupies. The normal version would, if the invisible creature stayed in the area being detected for the 3 rounds, eventually let the paladin realise what square the creature occupies. Using the move action version independently of the normal version requires the paladin to target the invisible creature, and since it's invisible he can't. If he had another way to target the invisible creature then it would work, but if that were the case then he wouldn't need detect evil to locate the creature! : )
Arguing the point of "target," nowhere in the description on Detect Evil or the enhanced spell like ability does it require line of sight. As the spell statesBumping this, because we still don't have an official answer. It came up in my last game with a new twist - an invisible enemy. My players wanted the paladin to be able to use a move action to focus and gain the exact location of the invisible enemy, and I said that to focus you had to know where the enemy was already, thus requiring the three rounds of normal detect evil.I'm on record as believing that the move action/single target version is usable in isolation, and nothing has changed there.
However, whatever side of the fence you may be, it must be said that, in order to use it that way, you must be able to target the...er...target! This usually means being able to see the target.
Detect evil/magic do not detect invisible as completely as some people hope. If correctly used the best they can hope to do is locate the square that an invisible creature occupies. The normal version would, if the invisible creature stayed in the area being detected for the 3 rounds, eventually let the paladin realise what square the creature occupies. Using the move action version independently of the normal version requires the paladin to target the invisible creature, and since it's invisible he can't. If he had another way to target the invisible creature then it would work, but if that were the case then he wouldn't need detect evil to locate the creature! : )
Each round, you can turn to detect evil in a new area. The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it.Given this, you do not NEED to "see" the "target" but are able to use the move action to identify the location on the second round, assuming you know the evil aura you are looking for
2nd Round: Number of evil auras (creatures, objects, or spells) in the area and the power of the most potent evil aura present.Given that the creature is invisible, you do not have the exact location of the creature but it's direction
3rd Round: The power and location of each aura. If an aura is outside your line of sight, then you discern its direction but not its exact location.
being in a room with a invisible creature, for example, you can use a line for possible locations the creature can be in
Given that it is in a cone, covering a full 90 degree angle, you don't even have a direction, really - and if it isn't the most powerful evil in the room, you don't have any info about it other than that it exists.
This is as clearly stated as something can be:
At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell.
No wiggle room for interpretation here, right? Activate this any time you want, go check the detect evil spell to see what it does.
This is also a very plainly written statement:
A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds.
I don't see what leads you to believe these aren't two separate statements, indicating two things the paladin can do. Adding a clause like "In addition," would make it more ambiguous, not less. The only way to make it more clear would be to say "Another thing that paladins can do when if they don't lose access to their detect evil ability is..." but that really seems a bit much. It's even more clear that these are two separate uses of the ability when the next sentence clearly specifies that you can't use both at the same time:
While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range.
So yes, I can emulate the Detect Evil spell, OR, as a move action, I can use a special quick-acting single target version as a move action.
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Bumping this, because we still don't have an official answer. It came up in my last game with a new twist - an invisible enemy. My players wanted the paladin to be able to use a move action to focus and gain the exact location of the invisible enemy, and I said that to focus you had to know where the enemy was already, thus requiring the three rounds of normal detect evil.
That's how I would do it. Being invisible is indistinguishable from being absent from an observer's perspective.
Of course, if you wanted to take things in another direction... if the invisible target is within 60 feet, you can concentrate on him and determine if he is evil and the strength of his evil aura. And nothing else. No way to determine his location with a single move action because that use of the ability doesn't provide that information; only using the ability as the spell would (and taking multiple rounds and hoping he's not keeping out of the paladin's LOS).
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@Inadzuma: I think our points are missing each other....
Using detect evil normally, targetting is never an issue.
I'm talking about using the move action version without the normal version being used first.
Without the normal version in effect, a paladin trying to use a move action to get information on a creature (as if he had studied it for three rounds with detect evil) must have some way to target that creature. How else would it work?
@Inadzuma: I think our points are missing each other....
Using detect evil normally, targetting is never an issue.
I'm talking about using the move action version without the normal version being used first.
Without the normal version in effect, a paladin trying to use a move action to get information on a creature (as if he had studied it for three rounds with detect evil) must have some way to target that creature. How else would it work?
But as it has previously been argued, the move action is an enhancement of the detect evil spell. If it was a separate ability then it would have been given a separate spell like ability. Since the move action changes the effect of the ability, detect evil must be used first.
At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell. A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range.
Using the second line in the description on its own would be using the ability out of context. It is part of the Detect Evil Spell like Ability and not a different ability for a reason.
Secondly I would rule the direction as a line effect instead of a cone, because the spell does not specify exactly how accurate the direction is, but neither does it say "within 90 degrees of that way." It does specifically say direction, one could assume like a needle pointing north on a compass.3rd Round: The power and location of each aura. If an aura is outside your line of sight, then you discern its direction but not its exact location.
the third round effect being given to you by the move action ability. Even though you can not see the creature, if you spend 2 rounds concentrating on Detect Evil you can identify separate auras.
As Malachi says it is a tough call. There are two reasonable ways to read it. If I understand correctly, the problem is that the term "concentrate" is a rules specific term with two different meanings. "concentrating to maintain a spell" and "you must concentrate to cast a spell".
Just to clarify things, lets make sure we are arguing about the same thing.
Scenario A.
A regular Detect Evil works like this, due to its rules text and the rules for concentration:
Turn 1. Standard Action to activate Detect Evil.
Turn 2. Standard Action to concentrate and continue with Detect Evil, or don't concentrate and dismiss the spell.
Turn 3+. If you chose to concentrate, repeat step 2.
Scenario B.
One reading gives the Paladin an extra option to concentrate while using Detect Evil:
Turn 1. Standard Action to activate Detect Evil.
Turn 2. Standard Action to concentrate and continue with Detect Evil, Move Action to concentrate but replace the normal Detect Evil rules with a single target, or don't concentrate and dismiss the spell.
Turn 3+. If you chose to concentrate (either with the standard or move action), repeat step 2.
Scenario C.
Finally, another reading gives the Paladin a separate ability that is independent of Detect Evil. You can use Detect Evil just like Scenario A, but you have a separate ability you can use as a move action. You can use this ability regardless of whether the Detect Evil cone is up or not.
We are discussing whether the Paladin follows scenario B or C, correct? Is there some other interpretation I missed?
I'm leaning towards scenario B, but it is somewhat vague.
Right, Salindurthas, except with the caveat that on C, even if your cone is up, using the move action ability makes you lose the information from normal version, as it does in B.
I also think it is Scenario B, where the move action modifies usage of an existing DE spell, not acts on its own apart from the first usage.
The problem is, as previously noted, the language supports either interpretation, so barring an official ruling (which is what I'm still hoping for) it is up to each GM to determine... and if you are thinking of playing a paladin, you should find out ahead of time.
Edit: Actually, Salindurthas may have introduced another consideration based on his formatting. ;) For those who think the move action version is a separate ability, would you allow someone to continue concentrating as a move action, or is it a burst of info and then stops (thus if there is somehow a change in the info you don't get it)? Could someone start concentrating as a standard action and get the full detect evil effect, or would it be a separate casting? (I'm not sure this matters at the moment, tbh, though I could see some kind of curse that had a negative effect every time a spell-like ability was used where it would matter.)
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Right, Salindurthas, except with the caveat that on C, even if your cone is up, using the move action ability makes you lose the information from normal version, as it does in B.
I also think it is Scenario B, where the move action modifies usage of an existing DE spell, not acts on its own apart from the first usage.
The problem is, as previously noted, the language supports either interpretation, so barring an official ruling (which is what I'm still hoping for) it is up to each GM to determine... and if you are thinking of playing a paladin, you should find out ahead of time.
Edit: Actually, Salindurthas may have introduced another consideration based on his formatting. ;) For those who think the move action version is a separate ability, would you allow someone to continue concentrating as a move action, or is it a burst of info and then stops (thus if there is somehow a change in the info you don't get it)? Could someone start concentrating as a standard action and get the full detect evil effect, or would it be a separate casting? (I'm not sure this matters at the moment, tbh, though I could see some kind of curse that had a negative effect every time a spell-like ability was used where it would matter.)
The (independant) move action version would be instantaneous. If, for some reason, you had the normal version running when you kicked off the move action version, then this ends the normal version at that point. You can start it up again next time you want to spend a standard action to do so.
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We use the Option C method.
You have two choices 1) Standard action to cast Detect Magic as the spell.... or 2) Move action for quick scan.
Neither of which we would allow to find an 'invisible' person. Option one would allow to detect the presence of evil in the cone... but you wouldn't be able to focus in if you didn't know where it was. BEST case scenario... I MIGHT agree they could narrow it down to 5' square like scent... but even that's not 'precise'
Option 2? You can't focus on what you can't see... If you don't know where he is... you don't know where to look.
We use the Option C method.
You have two choices 1) Standard action to cast Detect Magic as the spell.... or 2) Move action for quick scan.
Neither of which we would allow to find an 'invisible' person. Option one would allow to detect the presence of evil in the cone... but you wouldn't be able to focus in if you didn't know where it was. BEST case scenario... I MIGHT agree they could narrow it down to 5' square like scent... but even that's not 'precise'
Option 2? You can't focus on what you can't see... If you don't know where he is... you don't know where to look.
While using Scenario C makes for a more useful Paladin, the problem is that the
ability does not say "You may cast Detect Evil as a move action and discern the information as if having concentrated for 3 rounds." It saysAt will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell. A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range.
Taking the last line into account, Detect Evil would have been cast normally beforehand.
1st Round: Presence or absence of evil
So if it specifically says that you are unable detect other evil, then you must already be casting Detect Evil
Also, even if the creature is invisible, the aura is not (especially once Detect Evil is cast). I would have to say that the stronger the aura, the easier it is to pinpoint the source, unless the aura is blinding. No you may not have the outline of the creature or object, but you would get the general idea of where he is, such as a 5x5 square. The paladin may know where the creature is (or not by using the cone or line "direction" ideas) but the creature still has the benefits of being invisible (for example the miss chance).
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I think it's abundantly clear that the paladin has two abilities: A) Detect Evil in a cone as per the spell, and B) use a targeted ability as a move action that determines the strength of a target's aura.
The Detect Evil spell lets you determine the location of an invisible enemy, but it takes 3 rounds. The paladin may not use option B (move action detect evil) because it's a targeted effect and he doesn't know where the target is.
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We do it as two separate options
1) Standard action - cast detect evil as the spell. Gives you a cone of detection and requires up to 3 rounds to get all the info. Works just like other detect spells, including the fact that it can detect through walls / doors of certain thicknesses. Can also be used to target an invisible evil enemy as long as they stay in the cone field for the requisite 3 rounds.
2) Move action - Pick an object/person/monster you see and get all the info about them as if you had studied them for 3 rounds using the spell. This is single target but if you have a group of less than 6 targets it can be quicker than using option 1. Can't use this through a wall/door as you need to see the target.
We do it as two separate options
1) Standard action - cast detect evil as the spell. Gives you a cone of detection and requires up to 3 rounds to get all the info. Works just like other detect spells, including the fact that it can detect through walls / doors of certain thicknesses. Can also be used to target an invisible evil enemy as long as they stay in the cone field for the requisite 3 rounds.2) Move action - Pick an object/person/monster you see and get all the info about them as if you had studied them for 3 rounds using the spell. This is single target but if you have a group of less than 6 targets it can be quicker than using option 1. Can't use this through a wall/door as you need to see the target.
But if it is 2 separate abilities, then why is it not listed as 2 abilities?
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But if it is 2 separate abilities, then why is it not listed as 2 abilities?
I can't imagine that the writers, conscious of word count, would list:-
Detect Evil (Sp): At 1st level...etc.
And then ALSO write:-
Detect Evil (Sp): Also at 1st level...etc.
If the writers wanted to extend the previous editions ability to detect evil (like the spell) to also be able to use it as a move action to check a single target, they would have written, well, just what they did write!
While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range.
This line was written to make clear that, when using the move action version, you do not also get the information given by the standard action version! Without that line, people could use both versions simultaneously.
But if it is 2 separate abilities, then why is it not listed as 2 abilities?
For the same reason that channeling to harm and channeling to heal aren't listed as two separate abilities, or smiting evil and smiting undead aren't listed as two separate abilities.
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We do it as two separate options
1) Standard action - cast detect evil as the spell. Gives you a cone of detection and requires up to 3 rounds to get all the info. Works just like other detect spells, including the fact that it can detect through walls / doors of certain thicknesses. Can also be used to target an invisible evil enemy as long as they stay in the cone field for the requisite 3 rounds.2) Move action - Pick an object/person/monster you see and get all the info about them as if you had studied them for 3 rounds using the spell. This is single target but if you have a group of less than 6 targets it can be quicker than using option 1. Can't use this through a wall/door as you need to see the target.
This is correct!
That is because the 'Standard version" is modified by the move action ability. There are a number of examples of modifying action abilities and none with multiple "modes" are worded in such a way. The explanation of the ability is thorough in its wording.But if it is 2 separate abilities, then why is it not listed as 2 abilities?I can't imagine that the writers, conscious of word count, would list:-
Detect Evil (Sp): At 1st level...etc.
And then ALSO write:-
Detect Evil (Sp): Also at 1st level...etc.
If the writers wanted to extend the previous editions ability to detect evil (like the spell) to also be able to use it as a move action to check a single target, they would have written, well, just what they did write!
While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range.This line was written to make clear that, when using the move action version, you do not also get the information given by the standard action version! Without that line, people could use both versions simultaneously.
At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell. A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds
Examples to back this explanation
Druid Natures Bond (Ex)
At 1st level, a druid forms a bond with nature. This bond can take one of two forms. The first is a close tie to the natural world, granting the druid one of the following cleric domains: Air, Animal, Earth, Fire, Plant, Water, or Weather. When determining the powers and bonus spells granted by this domain, the druid's effective cleric level is equal to her druid level. A druid that selects this option also receives additional domain spell slots, just like a cleric. She must prepare the spell from her domain in this slot and this spell cannot be used to cast a spell spontaneously.
The second option is to form a close bond with an animal companion. A druid may begin play with any of the animals listed in Animal Choices. This animal is a loyal companion that accompanies the druid on her adventures.
Unlike normal animals of its kind, an animal companion's Hit Dice, abilities, skills, and feats advance as the druid advances in level. If a character receives an animal companion from more than one source, her effective druid levels stack for the purposes of determining the statistics and abilities of the companion. Most animal companions increase in size when their druid reaches 4th or 7th level, depending on the companion. If a druid releases her companion from service, she may gain a new one by performing a ceremony requiring 24 uninterrupted hours of prayer in the environment where the new companion typically lives. This ceremony can also replace an animal companion that has perished.
The writers clearly separate the different effects you can gain from Natures Bond
Barbarian Rage Powers(Ex)
As a barbarian gains levels, she learns to use her rage in new ways. Starting at 2nd level, a barbarian gains a rage power. She gains another rage power for every two levels of barbarian attained after 2nd level. A barbarian gains the benefits of rage powers only while raging, and some of these powers require the barbarian to take an action first. Unless otherwise noted, a barbarian cannot select an individual power more than once.
Bard Bardic Performance
This would be a long example, so to summarize, each bardic performance ability is marked with (Sp) or (Su) as it is a Supernatural or Spell like Ability. Here is a great exampleA bard is trained to use the Perform skill to create magical effects on those around him, including himself if desired. He can use this ability for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + his Charisma modifier. At each level after 1st a bard can use bardic performance for 2 additional rounds per day. Each round, the bard can produce any one of the types of bardic performance that he has mastered, as indicated by his level.
Starting a bardic performance is a standard action, but it can be maintained each round as a free action. Changing a bardic performance from one effect to another requires the bard to stop the previous performance and start a new one as a standard action. A bardic performance cannot be disrupted, but it ends immediately if the bard is killed, paralyzed, stunned, knocked unconscious, or otherwise prevented from taking a free action to maintain it each round. A bard cannot have more than one bardic performance in effect at one time.
While reading we see that you can only use a bardic performance for 4+Cha rounds per day (+2 per additional levels of bard). At level 10 you have 8 performances. Math says 4+5(Cha)+8=17 rounds of performance. Nowhere does that say that the rounds of use are to be totaled among all of the performances, having 136 rounds (17*8) of performance was not the intended result though.
You will also notice that "Bardic Performance" does not have an ability type associated with it. The different abilities that modify the performance (Countersong (Su), Distraction (Su) for example) determine the main abilities use and thereby add the (Sp) or (Su) template to the Bardic Performance.Ranger Hunters Bond(Ex)
Similar to the Druid Natures Bond
Witch Hex
see Bardic Performance.
The point being, the move action is not a separate ability. It is a modification of the first ability, the first ability must be on in order to modify it. If the "move action Detect Evil" said (Sp) behind it then sure, I could see your point. Specifically in Pathfinder where every ability is marked with what it is, there should not be any debate on this. Detect Evil (Sp) allows you to cast Detect Evil, the spell, as a Standard Action, you may then use a move action to Concentrate on a single creature or object to know if it is evil and to know the strength of it's aura. While focusing on the object the paladin does not detect evil in any other object within range.
Technically
1. Detect Evil the spell is in use
2. The "modification" does not give a duration, as a move action you determine the evil aura of one creature or object
3. It never says you stop using detect evil, after a momentary insight into 1 object or creature the spell would revert to normal, the modification would only last as long as a move action would last
4. If you continue to concentrate on Detect Evil on the next round to gain the round 2 bonus from Detect Evil
Better wording would say
Detect Evil (Sp)
At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell. While Detect Evil is active a paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range. Detect Evil functions normally after this affect
The reason for the other examples was to show how other abilities dealt with multiple affects. Mainly by separating them to be easily distinguished, or by changing their effect type (Sp,Su, or Ex)
@RumpinRufus
For the same reason that channeling to harm and channeling to heal aren't listed as two separate abilities, or smiting evil and smiting undead aren't listed as two separate abilities.
Your channeling is based on your alignment, a neutral cleric must choose one or the other
Once this choice is made, it cannot be reversed. This decision also determines whether the cleric can cast spontaneous cure or inflict spells (see spontaneous casting).
These are not separate abilities
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...Using this ability is a standard action, unless the paladin targets herself, in which case it is a swift action...
Lay On Hands isn't written as two seperate supernatural abilities, but as one ability with two different uses:-
* a standard action version which can heal another creature by touch
* a swift action version which is only useable on herself
Compare Detect Evil:-
* a standard action version used like the spell
* a move action version which gives an instant result on a single creature
Something else:-
...concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet...
Not '...within the cone-shaped area of the emanation of the Detect Evil you are currently concentrating upon...', but anywhere within 60 feet of the paladin, with no mention of it already being in use.
There are a number of examples of modifying action abilities and none with multiple "modes" are worded in such a way.
I didn't have to look far to show that 'none' is inaccurate!
As has been said, if you read the text of Detect Evil believing that the standard action must be running before you can use the move action version, then the wording seems to support you. But if you read it believing that the move action version can be done seperately, then the wording seems to support that!
And when confronted with the other perspective for the first time, we all are amazed that anyone could ever have got it so wrong!
After a while you come to the realisation that the wording can, quite honestly and fairly, be understood in either way. At this point, further dissection of the wording is not the way forward. The answer lies in understanding!
The paladin has been able to Detect Evil since at least AD&D 1st edition; I know, I played a paladin back then! Yes, I'm old!
In every edition since, the exact ability changed in it's details, while the principle remained. Much like the whole class.
When we get to 3.0 and 3.5, paladins have had the ability to Detect Evil, at will, as a spell-like abilty, although the description of the spell itself may have changed slightly.
Then we get to Pathfinder. There are several, quite major, changes to the paladin between 3.5 and PF. Put simply, paladins have been changed to allow them to do what they're supposed to do more effectively than they could in 3.5:-
* Smite Evil now modifies attack, damage, AC and ignores DR, and does so until the beast dies! In 3rd ed, you got the same number of Smites/day, but each Smite lasted only a single hit
* Lay On Hands can now heal the paladin as a swift action, meaning that the paladin no longer has to choose between attacking OR healing, now she can attack AND heal
* Detect Evil can be used (usually outside of combat) as it could before (as a baddy locator), but can now be used to check that the baddy is, in fact, evil (so she doesn't waste a Smite) as a move action so she can attack AND Detect Evil in the same round!
Can you see the consistant design theme, here? If the standard action version needed to be running before the move action version could be used, what would be the result?
Round 1: standard action->Detect Evil; move action->Detect Evil; baddy does bad stuff
No attacking there! Let's try again!
Round 1: standard action->Detect Evil; move action->move to engage some random baddy who may or may not be evil; baddy full attacks stupid paladin
Round 2: move action->Detect Evil; standard action->Smite Evil if it turns out you guessed right before your move action confirmed or denied it
Meanwhile, the rest of the party have been fighting evil for two rounds. What's a paladin for, again?
This does not reflect the design philosophy of PF's changes to the class. This does:-
Round 1: move action->Detect Evil; standard action->ranged attack or cast spell; baddy gets single attack on paladin after moving to engage
Round 2: paladin full attacks stupid baddy.
The new design philosophy, understood through the rest of the changes, is that the paladin's abilities no longer work at the expense of attacking evil, but may be used in conjunction with attacking evil.
Normally, using Detect Evil takes three standard actions before the first attack to get the solid info a paladin needs, while still being able to move. With the independant move action version, this means that the paladin can Detect Evil and still attack in round 1. Which is what he is for!
If the move action version is not useable in isolation, the paladin can't do anything, even move, for one round.
Of the two possible readings of the ambiguous RAW, the separate move action version is more consistent with the other changes to the class.
Trying to put myself in the mind of the writer who chose the move action version, I can't imagine him choosing to limit it to being only useable when the 'normal' version is already running. I think that if it was intended to be limited in this way, then it wouldn't take an extra move action to do it; it would be a free (or swift) action to get that info on a single target at the expense of having to start again with the normal version.
BTW, it would not say, 'While focussing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range' if the normal version continued unaffected. If it were an intantaneous result, then you would be back to sensing the cone again with no loss and that sentence would be meaningless.
...Using this ability is a standard action, unless the paladin targets herself, in which case it is a swift action...Lay On Hands isn't written as two seperate supernatural abilities, but as one ability with two different uses:-
* a standard action version which can heal another creature by touch
* a swift action version which is only useable on herself
Compare Detect Evil:-
* a standard action version used like the spell
* a move action version which gives an instant result on a single creature
Something else:-
...concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet...Not '...within the cone-shaped area of the emanation of the Detect Evil you are currently concentrating upon...', but anywhere within 60 feet of the paladin, with no mention of it already being in use.
There are a number of examples of modifying action abilities and none with multiple "modes" are worded in such a way.I didn't have to look far to show that 'none' is inaccurate!
As has been said, if you read the text of Detect Evil believing that the standard action must be running before you can use the move action version, then the wording seems to support you. But if you read it believing that the move action version can be done seperately, then the wording seems to support that!
And when confronted with the other perspective for the first time, we all are amazed that anyone could ever have got it so wrong!
After a while you come to the realisation that the wording can, quite honestly and fairly, be understood in either way. At this point, further dissection of the wording is not the way forward. The answer lies in understanding!
The paladin has been able to Detect Evil since at least AD&D 1st edition; I know, I played a paladin back then! Yes, I'm old!
In every edition since, the exact ability changed in it's details, while the principle remained. Much like the whole class....
The reason is not lost, as you are using Detect Evil in the first round then you (A) know that evil is in your cone or (B) know that there is no evil in the cone. Assuming the is "evil" you can pick one person or thing and know exactly how evil that person is, while still in the first round of Detect Evil. You go from knowing evil is there to either pinpointing one cause, or excluding one. This does seem like an improvement from 3.5.
Alternatively
Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. Each day she can use this ability a number of times equal to 1/2 her paladin level plus her Charisma modifier. With one use of this ability, a paladin can heal 1d6 hit points of damage for every two paladin levels she possesses. Using this ability is a standard action, unless the paladin targets herself, in which case it is a swift action. Despite the name of this ability, a paladin only needs one free hand to use this ability.
Alternatively, a paladin can use this healing power to deal damage to undead creatures, dealing 1d6 points of damage for every two levels the paladin possesses. Using lay on hands in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. Undead do not receive a saving throw against this damage.
We see how Lay on Hands is used in an alternative matter, by separating the alternate affect from the main (using the Lay on Hands to damage Undead instead of Healing). That is an example that I am talking about. Using LoH with a target of self reduces the cost from standard action to swift action does not compare to adding two sentences to the way an ability works as in Detect Evil (Sp+).
...Using this ability is a standard action, unless the paladin targets herself, in which case it is a swift action...Lay On Hands isn't written as two seperate supernatural abilities, but as one ability with two different uses:-
* a standard action version which can heal another creature by touch
* a swift action version which is only useable on herself
Compare Detect Evil:-
* a standard action version used like the spell
* a move action version which gives an instant result on a single creature
Something else:-
...concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet...Not '...within the cone-shaped area of the emanation of the Detect Evil you are currently concentrating upon...', but anywhere within 60 feet of the paladin, with no mention of it already being in use.
There are a number of examples of modifying action abilities and none with multiple "modes" are worded in such a way.I didn't have to look far to show that 'none' is inaccurate!
As has been said, if you read the text of Detect Evil believing that the standard action must be running before you can use the move action version, then the wording seems to support you. But if you read it believing that the move action version can be done seperately, then the wording seems to support that!
And when confronted with the other perspective for the first time, we all are amazed that anyone could ever have got it so wrong!
After a while you come to the realisation that the wording can, quite honestly and fairly, be understood in either way. At this point, further dissection of the wording is not the way forward. The answer lies in understanding!
The paladin has been able to Detect Evil since at least AD&D 1st edition; I know, I played a paladin back then! Yes, I'm old!
In every edition since, the exact ability changed in it's details, while the principle remained. Much like the whole class....
Going from 3.5 to Pathfinder, under the "modifies" interpretation, the paladin sacrifices one round of attacking instead of three. That still seems to fit the design philosophy you bring up. The paladin spends less time detecting and more time smiting either way.
I'd like to point out that the original question, which was heavily FAQ'd, has been marked as having been added to the FAQ. Except... there is nothing in the FAQ about it.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I recently found out in a thread over in Website Feedback that if the flagged post doesn't have a single, clear question they might just mark it as answered to get it out of the queue. If you want something answered, make a new thread containing pretty much nothing but a single, concise question and then try and get people to flag it for FAQ treatment. You're likely to get better results that way.
Was this ever answered?
No.
I did not know this was an issue.
If you use the it as a standard action it works like the spell. You also have the option to selection one target as a move action and bypass the 3 rounds of waiting.
Detect Evil (Sp): At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as
the spell. A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on
a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine
if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having
studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual
or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other
object or individual within range.
I dont understand what people don't understand with this ability... It's pretty clear to me but perhaps I'm wrong...
From what I read : Pal can activate Detect Evil as the spell as a standard action, he knows something evil or not in the 60 cone shaped area of the spell, then he can focu with his remaining move action on an individuel inside or outside the cone as long as it is in 60 feet distance... So he can pinpoint one individual in one round...
Frankly against most creature casting this is useless, against humanoid it's sometime useful but most humanid of the same groupe tend to be the same alignement anyway... And the most important thing is : If you begin a fight without anyone gathering intelligence on the ennemy you don't have to cmplain if you have to lose a little bit of time when the fight start to gather the info you should have gathered before... ;)
Move version only in all the games I've played. As in numerous other cases it states the spell the ability is based on and the differences in usage.
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This question was answered in the FAQ just last month. Here's the link.
I'm only resurrecting the thread because this is the page I found when researching this topic. Others might come also.
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To save on clicking, the answer is:
the first sentence is discrete from the rest of the ability, and offers an alternative option for using detect evil. A paladin can use the move action on a single creature or item in lieu of the standard action to activate a normal detect evil.
Cool - I missed that.
I remember using this thread a couple of years ago to back up my argument that DE wasn't gimped in PF and I could do either the spell version or the single target version for RotRL