This topic was NOT originally in the Kingmaker section of the boards, and in fact should not be in the Kingmaker section of the boards because it is not about Kingmaker. It's about the APG. Furthermore, the board rules are to use spoiler blocks unless the topic is specifically labeled as a spoiler topic, even within the modules/adventure paths sections of the boards.
All this is undeniably true. That said, I still asked my players not to read the Kingmaker boards while we're playing it, as there is too much chance for spoilers. Being human, mistakes are made and there will always be some content posted without appropriate markings that players should not see. So my advice to Ravingdork would be, if he is truly upset by the possibility of spoilers for his Kingmaker experience, to confine himself to the 90+ percent of the Paizo boards that are not specifically about Kingmaker.
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The issue isn't the airwalking...it's the infinate part. That means a monk at level 20 can airwalk around the world in less then 6 seconds.So infinate air walking is nothing to worry about?Infinite airwalk at 20th level - when other members of the party have permanent Overland Flight, flying mounts, animal companions, or eidolons, and/or wings of their own - is indeed, nothing to worry about.A wizard can greater teleport to anywhere in the world in less than 6 seconds, WITH FIVE OTHER PEOPLE... at 15th level.
And doesn't need to worry about having to stop if there's a door in the way that needs to be opened (which requires the monk to stop moving and use a separate move action to open).
I agree with the troll: not a problem.
Yeah the wizard CAN greater teleport...but he still can´t go faster then the speed of light now can he. He can´t map out the entire world in 6 second either can he. If you don´t think infinite movement can´t be abused something fierce, you don´t have very creative players. Not to mention a spell is a use per day ability...the monk can do this EVERY ROUND.
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Yeah the wizard CAN greater teleport...but he still can´t go faster then the speed of light now can he. He can´t map out the entire world in 6 second either can he. If you don´t think infinite movement can´t be abused something fierce, you don´t have very creative players. Not to mention a spell is a use per day ability...the monk can do this EVERY ROUND.
Ah, okay. I was wondering why you were so concerned with this ability. Cold Napalm, I'm afraid this comes from a misreading of the spell "Air Walk". If you've got your copy of the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game handy, flip to page 239. Otherwise, check out the spell here: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells---final/air-walk .
"The subject can tread on air as if walking on solid ground. Moving upward is similar to walking up a hill. The maximum upward or downward angle possible is 45 degrees, at a rate equal to half the air walker’s normal speed." <- This indicates that the speed of the spell Air Walk is based on the character's normal movement. Note that monks do not move an infinite number of feet per round, even at 20th level.
Likewise, flip open your Pathfinder APG to page 156 and carefully re-read Cloud Step. Yes, the monk could Air Walk (as per the spell) an infinite number of feet... if the monk could walk that far on foot in a single round. So, an average human monk at 20th level can make a standard move action of 90 feet per round. With Cloud Step, they'll still be moving 90 feet round, but defying gravity while doing so. An extremely cool ability, to be certain, but far from exploring entire worlds in six seconds.
I hope this clears up any confusion.
Yeah the wizard CAN greater teleport...but he still can´t go faster then the speed of light now can he. He can´t map out the entire world in 6 second either can he. If you don´t think infinite movement can´t be abused something fierce, you don´t have very creative players. Not to mention a spell is a use per day ability...the monk can do this EVERY ROUND.The issue isn't the airwalking...it's the infinate part. That means a monk at level 20 can airwalk around the world in less then 6 seconds.So infinate air walking is nothing to worry about?Infinite airwalk at 20th level - when other members of the party have permanent Overland Flight, flying mounts, animal companions, or eidolons, and/or wings of their own - is indeed, nothing to worry about.A wizard can greater teleport to anywhere in the world in less than 6 seconds, WITH FIVE OTHER PEOPLE... at 15th level.
And doesn't need to worry about having to stop if there's a door in the way that needs to be opened (which requires the monk to stop moving and use a separate move action to open).
I agree with the troll: not a problem.
Examples needed. I would also like to know how airwalk makes one fast enough to cover the world in six seconds or did I misunderstand the statement?
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Examples needed. I would also like to know how airwalk makes one fast enough to cover the world in six seconds or did I misunderstand the statement?
Yeah the wizard CAN greater teleport...but he still can´t go faster then the speed of light now can he. He can´t map out the entire world in 6 second either can he. If you don´t think infinite movement can´t be abused something fierce, you don´t have very creative players. Not to mention a spell is a use per day ability...the monk can do this EVERY ROUND.
Cloud step lets you air walk for half your slow fall distance...level 20 monk has a slow fall distance of any. So you can airwalk ever inch of the world as a move action. Yeah I know, level 20, not a huge deal in the grand scheme of things that break at high levels...but to say it is no issue at all isn't quite true either.
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Cloud step lets you air walk for half your slow fall distance...level 20 monk has a slow fall distance of any. So you can airwalk ever inch of the world as a move action. Yeah I know, level 20, not a huge deal in the grand scheme of things that break at high levels...but to say it is no issue at all isn't quite true either.
It should have been written better, true, like a lot of little things in the APG that were not the beneficiaries of open playtesting. The way I'd handle it as a GM is by following the pattern established with earlier monk levels, ie the slow fall distance improving by 10 ft. every 2 levels, so the airwalk speed for a 20th level monk should be 50 ft., half of 100.
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Cloud step lets you air walk for half your slow fall distance...level 20 monk has a slow fall distance of any. So you can airwalk ever inch of the world as a move action. Yeah I know, level 20, not a huge deal in the grand scheme of things that break at high levels...but to say it is no issue at all isn't quite true either.It should have been written better, true, like a lot of little things in the APG that were not the beneficiaries of open playtesting. The way I'd handle it as a GM is by following the pattern established with earlier monk levels, ie the slow fall distance improving by 10 ft. every 2 levels, so the airwalk speed for a 20th level monk should be 50 ft., half of 100.
Which is a perfectly valid houserule and would even be better as an offical errata.
I really don't see anything in the APG to be worried about.
All that's happening is some DM's are seeing things that they don't know how to deal with yet. Thumbs up to the players!
This.
As GM, I welcome my players doing something new and unexpected. It keeps me on my toes and can turn what I had expected to be a very dull, humdrum encounter into something exciting and memorable for everyone.
YAY!
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Yeah the wizard CAN greater teleport...but he still can´t go faster then the speed of light now can he.The issue isn't the airwalking...it's the infinate part. That means a monk at level 20 can airwalk around the world in less then 6 seconds.So infinate air walking is nothing to worry about?Infinite airwalk at 20th level - when other members of the party have permanent Overland Flight, flying mounts, animal companions, or eidolons, and/or wings of their own - is indeed, nothing to worry about.A wizard can greater teleport to anywhere in the world in less than 6 seconds, WITH FIVE OTHER PEOPLE... at 15th level.
And doesn't need to worry about having to stop if there's a door in the way that needs to be opened (which requires the monk to stop moving and use a separate move action to open).
I agree with the troll: not a problem.
Teleportation, being instantaneous and taking *NO* time to transit the distance between two points, is in fact faster than the speed of light, so... um, yeah, he can.
He can´t map out the entire world in 6 second either can he.
He can't map anything because drawing a map is a separate move action, nor for that matter can he find anything behind a closed door or any other aperture that requires a move action to open.
If you think he could simply infinimove around the world and then remember everything he saw sufficiently well to map it in detail after the fact... I suppose that would depend on his Intelligence and his Profession (cartographer) skill.
Also, a wizard who wanted a map of the world could just wish for one at 17th level, which would be cheaper, faster, and probably more accurate than hiring a 20th-level speedster-monk to do it for him. I don't think the dangers of supernatural cartography are being imbalanced by the monk being able to do replicate the feat 3 levels later than the cleric (miracle) or wiz.
If you don´t think infinite movement can´t be abused something fierce, you don´t have very creative players. Not to mention a spell is a use per day ability...the monk can do this EVERY ROUND.
Infinite movement is super-sweet as an ability and I would never mean to suggest otherwise... but I don't think it's at all unreasonable for what a 20th level monk who has also spent two feats on the ability should be able to do.
All of that said, I've mentioned before that the ambiguity was an oversight; and my intention had simply been to follow the 10' per 2 levels slow fall progression for distance. If you are looking for RAI by the designer, that was it.
However, on reflecting on the RAW as it actually came out, I'm actually pretty okay with the idea of 20th-level monks who have spent 2 feats on the ability being able to zoom all over the place. I think it's actually kind of a neat capstone ability for a class that people often criticize as being one of the weakest in the game.
I think it's actually kind of a neat capstone ability for a class that people often criticize as being one of the weakest in the game.
Yeah, as others have noticed before me, the PF monk at level 20 really excels at the two most important things:
- dying (True Sacrifice)
- running away (Infinite Airwalk)
Check out Human alternate class bonuses. Then check out the one for Sorcerer.
I think it's similar to their bonus for a oracles, bards, wizards, alchemists, and maybe a few others. I consider it to be much better than everything else, though - there is a feat to learn one more spell known, or two if they are not of your highest level, so it's basically half a (useful) feat every 2nd level.
On the other hand, am I the only one who thinks that getting another use per level of the 3+ caster attribute abilities that most clerics, wizards and sorcerers get are generally underwhelming? I mean, I was hoping for a mid-level feat that lets you do these as at-will abilities.
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All of that said, I've mentioned before that the ambiguity was an oversight; and my intention had simply been to follow the 10' per 2 levels slow fall progression for distance. If you are looking for RAI by the designer, that was it.
However, on reflecting on the RAW as it actually came out, I'm actually pretty okay with the idea of 20th-level monks who have spent 2 feats on the ability being able to zoom all over the place. I think it's actually kind of a neat capstone ability for a class that people often criticize as being one of the weakest in the game.
Huh. Looks like I was wrong. I was under the impression that Air Walk was was limited by the distance you could move per round. My apologies, Cold Napalm.
However, if you don't want to give the character infinite movement, yet still have a capstone ability for 20th level, I suspect my interpretation could work. Since Cloud Step would allow the character to move 45 feet at 18th level, effectively doubling the distance.
Obviously you should houserule away faster than light movement- it's a glaring error if it's there, an obvious mistake.
Really, I don't think so. By the time you get it, movement is irrelevant. Its a cooler monk capstone than not aging, and just as thematicly appropriate. I can't tell you how many kung fu movies I have seen it in.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Really, I don't think so. By the time you get it, movement is irrelevant. Its a cooler monk capstone than not aging, and just as thematicly appropriate. I can't tell you how many kung fu movies I have seen it in.Obviously you should houserule away faster than light movement- it's a glaring error if it's there, an obvious mistake.
It also by rule is JUST MOVEMENT.
You just get to move from here to there. Or, if you have Spring Attack, you can move from here to there (ATTACK) and then to this other place over here.
You don't become invisible, blurred, invulnerable, resistant to AoOs, filled with infinite kinetic energy, or get the ability to create whirlwinds or phase your molecules through solid objects because you're vibrating so fast or be able to leap through time or anything else. The universe is not helpless before your uber-speed because you don't get any kind of ancillary speed-related superpowers.
You can just move anywhere you want as a move action, as long as you've invested the two feats and there's not a door or any other kind of barrier that would make you spend another move action to open or bypass.
Again, that wasn't what I intended with the ability, but in retrospect I kinda like the idea.
You don't become invisible, blurred, invulnerable, resistant to AoOs, filled with infinite kinetic energy, or get the ability to create whirlwinds or phase your molecules through solid objects because you're vibrating so fast or be able to leap through time or anything else. The universe is not helpless before your uber-speed because you don't get any kind of ancillary speed-related superpowers.
Cue "what should realistically happen to your clothes when you move super-fast" debate. :p
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Really, I don't think so. By the time you get it, movement is irrelevant. Its a cooler monk capstone than not aging, and just as thematicly appropriate. I can't tell you how many kung fu movies I have seen it in.Obviously you should houserule away faster than light movement- it's a glaring error if it's there, an obvious mistake.
It also by rule is JUST MOVEMENT.
You just get to move from here to there. Or, if you have Spring Attack, you can move from here to there (ATTACK) and then to this other place over here.
You don't become invisible, blurred, invulnerable, resistant to AoOs, filled with infinite kinetic energy, or get the ability to create whirlwinds or phase your molecules through solid objects because you're vibrating so fast or be able to leap through time or anything else. The universe is not helpless before your uber-speed because you don't get any kind of ancillary speed-related superpowers.
You can just move anywhere you want as a move action, as long as you've invested the two feats and there's not a door or any other kind of barrier that would make you spend another move action to open or bypass.
Again, that wasn't what I intended with the ability, but in retrospect I kinda like the idea.
It does make Spring attack + stunning fist fun :)
Also fun with a spell storing amulet of mighty fists with dispell stored on it. Great way to stop those pesky flying casters. And don't forget spring attack and improved disarm. You to can steal the rod of rulership from the BBEG before it gets too ugly (for example). :P
(edit to note: I have not played kingmaker, just commenting on this ability and how I could see it causing problems).
Cue "what should realistically happen to your clothes when you move super-fast" debate. :p
You don't become invisible, blurred, invulnerable, resistant to AoOs, filled with infinite kinetic energy, or get the ability to create whirlwinds or phase your molecules through solid objects because you're vibrating so fast or be able to leap through time or anything else. The universe is not helpless before your uber-speed because you don't get any kind of ancillary speed-related superpowers.
I seem to remember an old Wild, Wild West episode in which someone moving superfast spontaneously combusted from friction with the air. I have to admit that, combined with magnuskn's clothes reference above, it produced an image in my mind of a burning, naked monk "streaking" across the battlefield. Made me chuckle, so I decided to share. :)
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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I'll say from the get-go that the fuss over the potential use of this ability is a little odd, given that in any given game world exactly how many single-classed 20th-level monks are going to exist? That have also not taken an alternate monk archetype that doesn't get slow fall and have chosen to invest these two feats.
1?
Depends on how high-magic the world is, but likely extremely few. The point is that, even if the ability *IS* as uber as some would contend, it is as rare as the tarrasque and something beyond irrelevant to most typical campaign gameplay, as the only able who *COULD* do it are the Ancient Revered Master of This and the Grand Master of Flowery That... and neither of them is particularly motivated to use it.
Could a PC gain the ability? Sure.
Will a 20th level monk with semi-unlimited movement rate become the dominant power character in the world? You decide.
Really, I don't think so. By the time you get it, movement is irrelevant. Its a cooler monk capstone than not aging, and just as thematicly appropriate. I can't tell you how many kung fu movies I have seen it in.You've seen a monk windwalk from Feudal Japan to like, South America? Instantly? And back?
We have ethereal and astral travel for this kind of stuff.
Amusingly, the monk ALREADY gets astral (by way of dimension door/abundant step) and ethereal (by way of empty body) travel abilities.
This ability, if you want to conceive of it this way, is simply the capstone ability on the monk's role as Master of Movement.
This is an obvious bug.
Of course it is. That's been acknowledged from the get go.
The question is whether the bug result is, in itself, worthwhile.
If the idea is the monk can go anywhere as a move action, then that could be written in. But if he actually gets there physically, that's totally absurd. If nothing else, the monk could quickly wrap an opponent in three hundred feet of adamantite chain by running in circles around them,
Actually, they couldn't.
They could lay all the adamantine chain they want in areas outside the creature's space, but as soon as the chain hits the creature, movement stops and you have to initiate an attack action as one of the following:
1. A CMB grapple check; or,
2. An improvised net attack.
In either case, you have to hit (vs. touch AC or CMD), and in the latter case the target also gets a Reflex save against your attempt. You can't actually tie them up (Escape Artist DC 20 + your CMB) unless they are already helpless. If they're not, you have to attack them with it. It doesn't matter if you are trying to tie them up with a 10-foot hemp rope or a 300-foot adamantine chain.
If you make your roll and/or the target fails the Reflex save, what happens? The target gains the grappled (1) or entangled (2) condition.
If they want to escape, they would do it in the usual ways, CMB vs. your CMD, Escape Artist vs. your CMD, Strength check vs. the break DC of the binding material (this is the only place where using adamantine chain rather than rope is going to make any difference, aside from others trying to rescue the target and attacking the chain's hit points), or make an opposed Strength check to remove the chain from its anchor and just move with the chain, or any of the usual magical escapes (shapechanging, gaseous, ethereal, DD/teleport, grease).
In other words, aside from the chain being harder to break, this tactic is almost exactly as effective as hitting them with an ordinary net, since most of its effectiveness is based on your CMB, not the thing you're using to try and capture the target.
Remember: The only thing that increases is your movement rate and your ability to walk on air. Your ability to affect other creatures or be affected by them is not altered in any way. They are not made helpless by your speed. You cannot move so fast that they cannot react or respond to you.
to say nothing of the offensiveness to physics of infinite movement and translight speeds.
None of which exist in or are relevant to D&D. There is no explosive release of energy when matter is destroyed (disintegrate), there is no significant convection of heat for characters flying 5 feet above a river of molten lava (technically, no convection at all, unless you wanted to house rule apply the 'contact with' 2d6 damage per round to creatures within a certain proximity), there is no displacement of air with teleportation. Water pressure damage scales infinitely and falling damage through air doesn't. A giant the size of a house doesn't automatically pulverize a humanoid foe in a single blow when it hits despite the fact that its blows are delivering tens of tons of pressure per square inch. Plate armor provides the same deflective and protective benefit against a rock thrown by a kobold as it does a boulder thrown by a giant.
There are threads going on right now about "realism in PF/D&D" and the argument continues of how "realistic" must things be in the game world, and where different people draw the line, whether regarding magic or not magic.
Generally speaking if your ability to move violates physics without using magic (you know, the way we violate physics), you made a boo-boo.
It's not without using magic.
It specifically stipulates that it duplicates the effects of the spell air walk. Which is magical.
Forgetting about time distortion, turning the atmosphere to plasma, or setting up massive shockwaves, we have the following issues:
1- Scouting. The monk moves step by step and perceives things statically- you don't round a corner and NOT find out what is behind the corner. You know, you don't have to guess. So by this rule, the monk is not merely almost omnipresent, but also nearly omniscient. While closed doors stop this, regular protection from scrying does not. The amount of knowledge the monk would possess in one round, by the glitched rule, has no limit.
It's got lots of limits, especially if we are using your test of "realism," in which case the amount of data a monk could process and remember would depend on his Intelligence score (coincidentally, probably his worst stat along with Charisma).
He can see all obvious things, but in order to transfer that knowledge to another person he would need to be the world's fastest transcriptionist to get it all down in the 45 seconds or so before it exist short-term memory, without confusion of any details.
Could it be useful in the short term? Sure, absolutely. It had better be, as an ability that you could only possibly get at 20th level, if you solo class only as a monk, do not take an archetype that trades out slow fall for something else, and spend 2 feats on it.
In other words, there are probably 2 or 3 people in the world with this ability.
And they are justly feared and respected.
While some actions of perception require checks, most do not. The monk can travel through every five foot cube in the world, possibly the universe (there's a low GP magic item that makes a shell of air surround you, if air is a limiting issue), and technically request you draw the map.
Actually, the monk PC is the one who would have to make a Profession (cartographer) check to make the map.
2- Trivializing travel- this trivializes travel more so than 9th level spells. Nothing competes with it, certainly not teleport. Toss the party in a bag of holding and you are there- essentially anywhere- the same round.
And this is different from "toss the party in a bag of holding and you are there - essentially anywhere - the same round" by casting greater teleport SEVEN LEVELS EARLIER as a wizard how?
Actually, I do know the answer to that.
Whereas the monk needs to put the ENTIRE party inside the bag, the wizard can actually keep up to 4 other party members (more as he levels up) outside the bag, so in case danger is there at the other end he does not need to spend a number of full-round actions equal to the number of party members inside the bag to retrieve them.
Also, the wizard can take Large-sized creatures like mounts and animal companions, which the monk can't, because they're too big to fit in a BoH or a portable hole.
There's also the small matter that "the entire party" can't fit into a BoH or PH. They only hold up to 250 cubic feet (BoH) or a 6' dia, 10' high cylinder. Each of which is sufficient to hold TWO 5-foot cubes, aka Small/Medium creatures.
By rule, two creatures could share a space if one of those creatures were helpless, so you could fit up to 4 Medium/Small characters into a BoH/PH, but only if one of them was first rendered unconscious, paralyzed, asleep, or securely tied up.
So, when you get to the other side with the party inside the bag, you have to first retrieve the active party members, and then you have to revive/cure/untie the helpless members once you arrive.
Of course, you could take multiple BoH/PH with you and carry 1 or 2 creatures in each. Still no Large creatures (mount/animal comp), but with sufficient magic investment you could make it work. Then you'd have to get out, open, and retrieve the stored characters separately for each item. Four PCs in 2 bags would take 6 rounds to get out.
Round 1: SUPERFASTMOVE (move action), get out BoH (move action)
Round 2: Full-round action to retrieve a specific item (Char 1)
Round 3: Repeat round 2
Round 4: Put away BoH1 (move), get out BoH2 (move)
Round 5: Repeat round 2
Round 6: Repeat round 2
You could maybe do it in 5 rounds if you already had the first BoH in your hand and a generous DM let you begin the full-round during round 1. Then on round 3 you'd actually finish the second full-round retrieval and could move action out the other bag, as long as you were willing to drop the first BoH on the ground.
3- Laughably silly to many players, myself included- the concept of physical movement at infinite velocity breaks immersion instantly. I'm kind of shocked this has any defenders.
I suppose it's one of those YMMV things. Laughably silly to some, curiously interesting to others. What breaks immersion for some fulfills tropes of the genre for others.
A shadowstep-type ability is in flavor, a strange combination of nonsense and poorly written wording being glommed onto is just silly.
Not sure what you mean by this sentence (other than "DO NOT LIKE").
4- Rules silliness- this is exactly the kind of rules oversight a lot of us are here to avoid.
In all seriousness, what is the difference between "laughable silliness" and "rules silliness"; are you referring to a difference between silly fluff (the former) and silly crunch (the latter)?
5- Any move action that can be exploited, will be. This includes the concept of "I hold a chain is anchored to the ground / my friend has, then walk around this guy 300 times", but I could come up with TONS. Anything that can be set up to be triggered on, tied to, or part of, the move action, is now suddenly raring to be exploited like crazy.
-Dropping items is a free action. Now the only challenge is to come up with the most dangerous items to drop, and how many you can hold.
That number is generally 1 or 2, depending on how many hands you have. Also, once those items are dropped, picking up new ones is a separate move action. Quick Draw applies only if they are actual weapons. You could carry several hundred daggers on your person and quick draw and drop them all. That might be effective, as long as your target doesn't have DR. Which is rarely going to be the case when you're a 20th level character.
There's an entire thread mostly about dropping things with the shrink item spell (Wizard Winning Tactics I think it was called). Look it up.
This is also valid with many types of flight, but this makes it viable if the BBEG is peeing behind a tree three continents away. Or three galaxies.
The spell emulates air walk. Can't walk where there's no air.
-Any passive area-of-effect abilities can be brought anywhere, at any time. An evil monk could sicken the world with stench, or if there's a way to inflict a single point of damage statically to creatures even five feet away, even with restrictions such as "can only occur once a round", then, hey, you've got it. This monk could essentially end the world with a move action.
If such a thing does exist (does it?), how exactly would doing 1 point of damage to everything in the world... end the world with a move action?
As for status effects, check them again. Even if the tactic works, the duration is limited and the effect, once saved against, is ineffective for 24 hours. Also, you affect them ONCE. They don't get any sicker no matter how many times you run past them.
Also, getting close enough to affect most creatures likewise gives them the potential of affecting you. Once you have run past once and attacked them, you have now entered initiative against every one of them. Most of whom will likely use a combination of Stealth and readied attacks to take their shots at you as soon as you appear. Greater invisibility would be advised... and staying away from creatures that are known to be able to see invisible (if you know... again a low Int score may hurt you there).
Likewise, covering the world subjects you to any other ill effects that exist in the world, many of which will have no visual manifestation until you literally run right into them.
Now, is THIS how we want to give the monks shadow step? Via an absurdly not thought out ability that scales to literal infinity?
Whatever. Put it in your games if you want, then enjoy making up five houserules a session so that the player doesn't do any of the ludicrous stuff either stated or implied by such an ability, and fully allowed by the same slavish interpretation of the rules as they are in the book. Once you have a fair version of it, post it here so that we can see a decent way to write it, if that's the way it'll end up.
Amusingly, the vast majority of supposed exploits require no house rules because they are countered by the ACTUAL rules.
Really, I don't think so. By the time you get it, movement is irrelevant. Its a cooler monk capstone than not aging, and just as thematicly appropriate. I can't tell you how many kung fu movies I have seen it in.You've seen a monk windwalk from Feudal Japan to like, South America? Instantly? And back?
... I have seen kung fu movies where they fight in 3-4 different landscapes of China in 1 battle. Usually they are confined to China though... Usually.
APG stuff that is challenging, aside from my previous example...
Cavalier (high level) + barbarian (high level) + other trivial characters (compared to the above two):
Cavalier Order of the Dragon lvl 20 (yes, I master at that level currently, we're resetting in three weeks again) + barbarian lvl 20...
Initiative roll, cavalier wins
His first action is:
- Challenge closest BBEG monster (half dragon barbarian)
- Charge said half dragon, using his capstone ability and doing WITHOUT critical hit 275 points of damage (challenge = cavalier level in extra damage to challenged monster)... Damage on a charge = x5... and use ride-by-attack, no AoO.
- "Act as One" kicks in, all allies in sight get a free normal move + 1 attack as an immediate action. Hence they all close with said BBEG and all even charge hime for the additional damage, the penalty offset by the +2 AC the cavalier grants.
Then, it the barbarian's turn. Instead of having to close with the half dragon and have only one attack, he is already adjacent to him and can unload a full round attack on it, wasting said Half Dragon before it even got to act...
Next round, same on other BBEG, lycanthrope barbarian this time... Cavalier just attacks this time, but grants all allies +6 to hit the lycanthrope as long as he threatens them and uses second challenge of the day (7 total) to waste the lycanthrope in under two rounds with the help of the barbarian.
All in all, I'm cool with the APG and the powers (although some have been removed for all the right reasons), but it does indeed force us as DM's to rethink the strategies we have been using successfully for many years as the new mechanics work around (or can work around) them with ease...
To come back on how my barbarian deals 150-200 damage in one round? Again talking levels 16-18-20 here... he does 2d4 (falchion) + 50 per hit... The 50 extra comes mainly from APG sources, Reckless Abandon (-5 AC / +5 damage), Witch Hunter (+5 damage to spellcasters or creatures with spell like abilities, which they all have above a certain level), +5 weapon of course, strength 38 in rage with two handed weapon, power attack with two handed weapon). His Falchion with improved critical gives him a 30% per attack of being a critical and multiplying above damage by 2... So by level 20, damage outpout with haste (which he always gets) on average (assuming as proven that 4 out of the 5 attacks hit) 220 without crits and taking the crit chance into account 286 on average per round. Not much can stand in his way for long.
And yes, he has combat reflexes and a very decent dex! So he can return up to 5 AoO per round with each attack (even from the same creature) provoking an AoO at his highest attack bonus, so 5 retaliatory strikes per round... try about 300 damage outside his turn and almost 300 on his turn (and I have houseruled come and get me to return the favor AFTER the opponent's damage comes through). Like I said, not much that can stand up against such punishment...
Now combine again the above monster of a barbarian with the cavalier and they just found another loop hole (by the rules of course!).
The Cavalier Trips an opponent and has granted the virtual team work feats to his allies. The trip provokes an AoO from the cavalier thanks to the greater and improved trip), the barbarian also gets one because the cavalier got one (thanks to the feat), the barbarian happens to crit the monster, the cavalier gets an AoO because of his abilites (ally critting a threatened opponent gives him a free AoO). His extra AoO triggers another AoO from the barbarian who happens to crit again, the cavalier goes again with a free AoO and then the barbarian again. Needless to say, that downed opponent never got a chance to get back up...
So there I was with a party of 5 very optimized characters at level 20 with liberal use of Core / APG / MIC (to an extent) versus my 5 barbarians (no come and get me on my side though) with templates (lycanthrope, half dragon, half fiend, vampire, ...) with CR 20-23 each and they all got wasted. I did take the cleric with me though in a final blaze of g(l)ory...
APG does boost the power level of a party again, but it will just require more creativity from us as DM's :-)
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Too much cut and paste and block and re-block, so instead:
1. Kill the World as a 9th level spell: A 9th level spell (available to any 17th level cleric (mirale) or wizard (wish), or 18th-level sorcerer (wish)) is and should be significantly more common than an ability limited to only one class (monk) 3 levels higher (20th) with no conflicting archetypes and that requires two feats to attain.
So, the comparison isn't valid.
2. Won't NPCs just destroy the world? If the ability exists only in the hand of a single NPC, NPCs move at the Speed of Plot, which means that it only has any interest in using the ability inasmuch as the DM decides he would. This is the classic Superman conundrum. He COULD spend all day flying around the world... but he doesn't. (and, if you like, substitute Superman-equivalent villain like Cyborg Superman, Superboy Prime, Black Adam, etc., if you want to counter that Supes doesn't fly around the world killing everybody just because he's a nice guy). Why?
a. He feels like he has better things to do with his time.
b. He thinks dealing with the rabble of the world is beneath him.
c. He wants to focus his attention on dealing with creatures more on his level because they present a more interesting or satisfying challenge.
d. He doesn't want to provoke similar-powered enemies to gang up on him in response to engaging in a worldwide campaign of good or evil.
None of this applies to PCs, of course, but 2d really should, because as soon as someone makes the attempt other powerful beings will suddenly become very interested. But that's why you play the game with a dynamic world, to see what the PCs will do with their resources, be they spells, class abilities, equipment, or creativity.
3. Worldwide mapping: The superspeed monk can see where he's going, sure. That's not the issue. The issue is remembering where he's been and all the things he's seen and being able to process, store, retrieve, and/or share that data. Not running blind =/= has an autoscribed map that writes itself as he goes. The DM is obligated to tell him everything he sees within his line of sight. He is under no obligation to tell him what he already saw after he's left.
It's just like running any PC through a maze. PCs can make a map as they go through the maze if they like and have the tools and/or skills to do so. As a matter of habit, DMs will often write the map on a vinyl battlemat or what have you and leave it there even after the PCs have moved on. But that is a matter of tabletop convenience. All you can see is what you can see. Your characters are relying on memory, and a map if they make one. The monk can't make a map as he runs because that would require a separate standard action (use a skill), so he has to rely on memorizing everywhere he's been.
Neither knowledge nor perception become, uh, infinite. They are precisely as finite as your senses at the time that you are sensing them. You see it as you go through, and then you leave. What amount of that you remember is dependent on the player's brainpower to remember the DM's physical description and whatever they can convince the DM to repeat for them afterwards.
4. Adamantine chain/wall: Sure, you can drop as much as you can carry as you go. A cubic foot of steel weighs around 500 pounds, so to carry enough adamantine chain to create a wall around a medium-sized character 10 feet thick on each side and 20 feet high, as you suggest, would require being able to carry... ummm... a lot.
56 5-foot cubes times x 125 (125 1-foot cubes per 5-foot cube) x 500 pounds...
3.5 MILLION POUNDS of metal (assuming that adamantine weighs the same as steel).
That's a strong monk.
You have to be able to carry it all at once, you see, because picking up a new object requires a separate move action, so you can't do it while you're moving.
Yes, in the comic books Superman or the Flash can zoom around and create a wall of bricks in no time flat because they don't have to spend a separate action to pick things up. Characters in Pathfinder do.[/i]
You don't need to make a house rule to prevent this. The rules already prevent it. You'd need to make a house rule to [b]ALLOW it.
5. Tying people up: Again, your proposed exploit requires ignoring the rules. Pathfinder has rules for tying people up. You have to use those rules whether you're moving 5 feet per round or 5 million feet per round. It requires a specific action, an attack action to grapple or net, a full-round action to bind with rope (if the target is helpless). You don't get to do it for free.
Also, in Pathfinder, the target has a chance to resist, whether with their AC, their CMD, their Escape Artist skill, their Reflex save, or whichever mechanic is appropriate to what you're trying to do.
As with #4, you don't need to make a house rule to prevent this. The rules already prevent it. You'd need to make a house rule to ALLOW it.
6. Worldwide damage: You'll need to provide an example of a spell or effect that actually exhibits this property in Pathfinder (note that many auras only take effect if a target begins its turn within the aura; the person with the aura doing a move-through doesn't trigger it) before you can see whether it really is an exploit.
Also, even if it does work exactly as you describe... that's part of playing D&D. PCs can choose to be mass-murderers if they so choose. Ensuring that relevant consequences occur in a dynamic world is the DM's job. NPCs can choose to do the same; the PCs usually will have the job of figuring out a way to stop them.
7. Air walk is magical: Answering that air walk doesn't stipulate infinite movement is entirely beside the point of whether it is magical.
Which it is.
It also doesn't state anything about a specific limit on speed. It just lets you walk on air as if it were ground, going up slower and down faster. Defining the movement rate is outside the scope of the spell.
8. Air walk vs. teleport/astral/ethereal: I'm not sure why ultrafast movement must be considered teleportation. Teleportation is categorically different from walking there.
a. TP goes through solid objects and through liquids, AW doesn't.
b. TP carries multiple people at once, AW doesn't.
c. TP is blocked by forbiddance/dimensional lock, AW isn't.
d. TP is instantaneous, AW even at nearly unlimited speeds isn't.
The Alpha Flight superhero Guardian created a property in his armored suit that let him become momentarily uncoupled from the orbital velocity of the earth (let the science of it go and just roll with it), essentially becoming stationary relative to the earth's rotation. IOW, he suddenly zoomed east at ~600 mph.
He appeared to observers to teleport, those observers being the X-Men, who had a teleporter on their team (Nightcrawler) and had fought teleporting foes (the Vanisher). To their eyes, he seemed to teleport away, even though he hadn't literally stepped in between dimensions in an instantaneous transit.
Guardian was up in the air when he triggered the ability; if he had been lower down, he might very swell have gotten splattered across an oncoming mountain.
Same apparent effect. Different mechanics. Is that so wrong?
9. Air walk in space: I'm aware of two Pathfinder magic items that allow you to survive without air (necklace of adaptation, ioun stone); I haven't seen a Pathfinder item that encases you in a bubble of air. I have no doubt that in 10 years of 3.0/3.5 products something like that popped up. Does it exist in PF?
10. On godlike monks: You claim this ability makes monks godlike, but most if not all of the examples you offer of exploits require house rules, waiving the effects of the game rules, allowing things to occur by fiat. If you actually simply enforce the rules that exist, specifically on action economy, almost all of them simply disappear because they aren't supported in the rules.
If you let the monk argue that their super-speed supersedes (pun intended) the game rules and let them use it for anything they like, then of course it'll be overpowered. But, letting the monk say "I'm moving super-fast, I just tie the guy up in a big chain" and having it be an auto-success is no different from letting the fighter say "I walk up to the monster and slit its throat" and having it be an auto-success.
The exploit is in allowing the player to dictate game effects that are not stipulated in the rule. Most of the time, however, the rule says what it does and does what it says. No more, no less.
Moving any distance you want, whether across the room, across the continent, or across the universe if you find the means to spacewalk, means precisely that. You can move from here to there. Nothing more. Nothing less.
Anything you choose in your pursuit of "But, but, but..." to add to it on top of that is where the house rules start coming in.
BONUS! On whether I'm an idiot, just sad, pathetic, stunning, logic-proof, insulting to everyone's intelligence, or otherwise: Hey, YMMV.
I've said very plainly that the RAI was made using the assumption of the slow fall progression of 10' per 2 levels, not accounting for the "infinity exception." If you want the rules as intended, there it is.
My arguments here are less in favor of any particular position and more to the point of debunking calamitous claims (a little alliteration) of brokenness that are almost all only true if you start heaping up extra game effects that you think should apply... even though the rule actually doesn't stipulate them at all.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Oh, one other thing. I don't play video games so I'm not sure what video game you're referencing above.
If there is a comparison to monk-uber-movement it would probably be much more akin to Neo in the Matrix sequel (#2 I believe it was) or extreme wuxia movie leaping across thousands of miles mid-swordfight (can't remember now the name of the movie; I've only seen a handful of those kind of movies, you'd think I'd remember).
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Oh, one other thing. I don't play video games so I'm not sure what video game you're referencing above.
If there is a comparison to monk-uber-movement it would probably be much more akin to Neo in the Matrix sequel (#2 I believe it was) or extreme wuxia movie leaping across thousands of miles mid-swordfight (can't remember now the name of the movie; I've only seen a handful of those kind of movies, you'd think I'd remember).
For me it is not so much that the ability is overpowered, for me it is the defense that you give it. It reminds me of a lazy programmer who, rather then work on fixing the bug, instead calls it a "feature".
Personally, if I ever need to, I will do a houserule/errata that states the 10' per 2 levels to fix the error in the book. I do not mind doing it every once in a while, but I also hope that the book has an errata posted to show the correction.
unlimited movement + spring attack does open up quite a few possibilities for a creative player and remain in the rules. Part of that is that there is a whole party to work with and buff the monk. The combination opens up many more options then the monk working alone. It may not trivialize much, but unlimited, at-will movement, with the ability to still take a standard action is a little silly. Sure, a caster with teleport could go anywhere, but could not act on the same turn that they show up.
A monk of the Lotus with this could have fun with Spring Attack and Touch of Peace. Or from the APG, Defoliant Polish. Causes plants to wilt and diminish as soon as they come in contact with it. Allows someone to move through heavy vegetation as if it were normal terrain, but leaves a clear path of ruined vegetation. What is to stop a monk with unlimited movement from destroying a forest/fields/etc when ever they wanted to (other then GM saying no)?
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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BTW, the low level magic time that would allow the monk to go into space is a "Necklace of Adaptation". But by RAW, he could just hold his breath for the couple of rounds he needs to get anywhere, do something and get back. Holding your breath in D20 based games is fairly easy.
How odd, I thought I had looked and it just made you not have to breathe. My mistake, AND it's even that way in the 3.5 DMG too.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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For me it is not so much that the ability is overpowered, for me it is the defense that you give it. It reminds me of a lazy programmer who, rather then work on fixing the bug, instead calls it a "feature".Oh, one other thing. I don't play video games so I'm not sure what video game you're referencing above.
If there is a comparison to monk-uber-movement it would probably be much more akin to Neo in the Matrix sequel (#2 I believe it was) or extreme wuxia movie leaping across thousands of miles mid-swordfight (can't remember now the name of the movie; I've only seen a handful of those kind of movies, you'd think I'd remember).
Oh heavens no, I've called it out as a clear mistake every time it's come up, an oversight by me, probably 2-3 times in this thread alone. I've also stated explicitly how it was intended to work, that it was supposed to be 1/2 of the SF distance of 10'/2 levels.
However, I am not in a position to "fix" anything in any official capacity, as I am only a freelance contributor to Paizo. I don't work directly for the company and have no official sanction to issue errata for anything, even if it's a clear error. I can give my observations, opinions, and hypothetical notions, but once I've turned over my text and it churns through the system and comes out as RAW, any opinions I have after the fact are no more valid, officially speaking for PFS or the like, than yours.
My interest in this thread is to point out that the ability, while of great potential utility, is nowhere near the OHNOEZBROKENZOMG!!!! level unless you decide to start adding in a bunch of side effects to the ability that are nowhere stated IN the ability, because you think it will be more "realistic," and that most of the supposed exploits simply don't work within the rules of the game.
Regardless, I've said it before and I'll say it again here: Not addressing the "any distance" exception at 20th level was an oversight. RAI, you should be able to Cloud Step (or Spider Step) 50' as a move action. That's it, that's all.
However, if you *DID* want to play with the idea of a 20th level monk who spent 2 feats on it being the King of Speed, even including the ability to Cloud Step to other planets, I think it's far less game-breaking than it might at first appear, as long as you apply the rules of the game. If you let people break the rules "because I'm going so fast," then of course it's broken by definition.
P.S. An amusing philosophical rejoinder someone could offer: Since Spider/Cloud Step only lets you move half your slow fall distance, if your SF distance is any distance, then a certain grammatical reading would state that it would only allow you to go halfway there; you can go as fast as you like, but you'll never get there. Everything is an asymptote to you.
Personally, if I ever need to, I will do a houserule/errata that states the 10' per 2 levels to fix the error in the book. I do not mind doing it every once in a while, but I also hope that the book has an errata posted to show the correction.
As I've posted upthread and elsewhere, that was the intended effect of the feats. We will see if that is reflected when official errata are released.
unlimited movement + spring attack does open up quite a few possibilities for a creative player and remain in the rules.
Sure. Then again, with SA the monk for all of his zooming around gets one attack against one creature vs. a conventional attack using his hasted flurry to attack 8 times per round (3 of them with a higher BAB than his one SA attack).
Which one is going to be more effective? Is it clearly a 'win' on the side of Speedy Gonzalez (zoom/spring attack) vs. Slowpoke Rodriguez (stand and flurry)?
Part of that is that there is a whole party to work with and buff the monk. The combination opens up many more options then the monk working alone.
Sure it does, whether the monk is a zoomer or a puncher (or a grappler or whatever else). In fact, all of those buffs seemingly would stack more favorably on the flurry monk (since he gets to apply them 8 times per round) than the zoomy monk (who only gets to apply them once).
It may not trivialize much, but unlimited, at-will movement, with the ability to still take a standard action is a little silly. Sure, a caster with teleport could go anywhere, but could not act on the same turn that they show up.
They could, using either quicken rods (expensive) or for those who use Action Points (3.5 UA/Eberron) or Hero Points (APG) allowing additional actions.
In either case, they can't do it nearly as often as the monk, of course. Clear advantage to Speedy.
A monk of the Lotus with this could have fun with Spring Attack and Touch of Peace.
ToP is only usable once per day. I'm not sure how this would be any more awesome than using quivering palm or any other touch effect.
Or from the APG, Defoliant Polish. Causes plants to wilt and diminish as soon as they come in contact with it. Allows someone to move through heavy vegetation as if it were normal terrain, but leaves a clear path of ruined vegetation. What is to stop a monk with unlimited movement from destroying a forest/fields/etc when ever they wanted to (other then GM saying no)?
Nothing.
Nothing stops the monk from doing it. Neither is there anything stopping any other character from burning down a forest, poisoning lakes, slaughtering villages, or committing any other acts of malicious mischief. The only difference is that, if you were to adopt this rule, the monk could do it faster.
The real question is not what is stopping him. The question is, what happens next?
Once the monk has defoliated Greater Slobbovia in 6 seconds... what then?
Behavior has consequences; simple, natural consequences.
If the Reverse Flash decides to use his super-speed to devastate something, what happens? The Flash comes to stop him. Or Green Lantern. Or someone gets desperate and hires Lobo to do it. :)
True, you're a 20th level monk, so you might say "bring it on." Inevitably, someone will.
That's the nature of the universe. Everyone has a protector somewhere. If defoliation is your bag, somewhere there's a 20th level druid who may decide he has a new goal in life; to end yours. Alternatively, if your devastation is truly epic in scale, you may attract a bit more epic attention, perhaps an aspect of a nature/agriculture deity; you are, after all, starting to play in playground of divine and semi-divine beings at 20th level. Or, perhaps the archdaemon of famine, Trelmarixian, decides he likes the cut of your jib and wants to recruit you as his new herald. And he doesn't like taking no for an answer.
This is not some kind of vindictive DMing. This is allowing players to decide what their characters want to do in the world, and you as the DM deciding how the world will rationally respond to their actions.
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Okay jason, I think your missing the point. Unlimited movement by itself won't do very much. But then again, all the parts needed to make the uber charger didn't do very much either...it's just when you started to COMBINE them the issues came about. Unlimited movement is a VERY big thing that can combine very poorly with other rules...if not already.
The same with selective spell. The feat is too open to abuse. Right now, the only two real major issues are AMF and sirroco. And AMF depends on if it blocks line of effect or not...but either way it kinda screws the game since if it does block, then regular AMF becomes a pain in the rear to adjucate. If it does not, selective AMF suddenly becomes game breaking broken...or close too. Sirroco is one spell...that kicks in pretty late...but what's to say that ultimate magic won't have more? With even worse effect? At lower levels?
Here's the thing, I'm a rules monkey. I know what's very likely to cause problems...and open ended effects like unlimited movement and ignore effects of area spells are both VERY prone to causing a lot of issues.
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The problem, at least as I see it, with the unbalanced and/or inelegantly executed parts of the APG isn't the writing. The concepts behind a lot of the points of controversy are perfectly fine, brilliant even, but their finished forms are less than some of us might want. But before we yell at the authors, though, some of us should try and remember something: books are not made from just whatever the author turns in, and movies are not made by just shooting the script in order of the scenes with one take only. The key to great entertainment is editing.
The issues some of us see with the APG are due to, I suspect, the amount of editing, development, and playtesting the book underwent. The Pathfinder Core Book (and the Bestiary) was built off of the 3.5 D&D core, a rules system developed by a much larger company with a much larger staff of editors, and five (eight, counting 3.0) years of active play. The additions and revisions to 3.5 that made Pathfinder Pathfinder were the products of a long, detailed, massive open beta and even alpha playtest, one in which (essentially) the entirety of the book was opened up for testing as it was developed.
The APG wasn't developed from a mature, existing source, nor playtested the same way as the Pathfinder Core Book, though. Sure, we all saw the beta versions of the new classes, and we got to playtest those classes, and collectively figure out what went too far and what didn't go too far enough, but as for the rest of the book, the feats, spells, PrCs, racial and class bonuses, we never saw those parts of the APG until the book hit the shelves and our My Downloads lists.
The weaknesses of the APG are, I suspect, due to one (or more) of three causes:
1) Insufficient playtesting of all sections of the book, not just the new base classes.
2) Not enough sets of eyes going over it for enough hours during editing, due to the GenCon deadline rush or just not having enough sets of eyes in the office.
3) Not the right sets of eyes going over it during editing.
What do I think could be done to avoid the causes of the (relatively minor) issues with the APG? More playtesting of more parts of the book, for one. 10,000 pairs of eyes will catch more episodes of less-than-perfect-wording than just 10... but, on the other hand, playtesting takes time, and it exposes all the content for public consumption. If you like the beta version of the APG, why buy the final?
Not enough eyes over not enough hours during editing, that one's not so easily fixed, especially with the conscious choice made to keep Paizo a small, manageable company. Short of putting rules books like the APG into editing earlier than other books of the same word and page count, or hiring more editors so there are enough editor-hours that the GenCon deadline doesn't affect the final quality, I don't have any ideas, even ones that I can see the immediate drawbacks with.
And as for not the right sets of eyes, well, it almost feels to me like what's needed here is a white hat hacker for rules. A min-maxing, cheat-happy, loophole-exploiting weasel... but one who knows he (or she) is just that, and wants to put their "skills" to good use, making the final published product better for everyone
Now everything I've said may just be an OCD geek ranting on the internet about yet another meaningless point that doesn't really matter (Meaningless ranting? On an RPG forum? Why, I never!), but I'm worried that Bestiary II and Ultimate Magic might end up proving my point. If the same (relative to the Core Book) lack of playtesting and sufficient hours beneath the right editorial eyeballs results in more books with great ideas and some less-than-perfect execution of those ideas... well, I think the question will have to start to be asked how much of Pathfinder's success is actually Paizo's, how much of it is due to massive playtesting, and how much is due to the inherited base of D&D 3.5.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Okay jason, I think your missing the point. Unlimited movement by itself won't do very much. But then again, all the parts needed to make the uber charger didn't do very much either...it's just when you started to COMBINE them the issues came about. Unlimited movement is a VERY big thing that can combine very poorly with other rules...if not already.
The same with selective spell. The feat is too open to abuse. Right now, the only two real major issues are AMF and sirroco. And AMF depends on if it blocks line of effect or not...but either way it kinda screws the game since if it does block, then regular AMF becomes a pain in the rear to adjucate. If it does not, selective AMF suddenly becomes game breaking broken...or close too. Sirroco is one spell...that kicks in pretty late...but what's to say that ultimate magic won't have more? With even worse effect? At lower levels?
Here's the thing, I'm a rules monkey. I know what's very likely to cause problems...and open ended effects like unlimited movement and ignore effects of area spells are both VERY prone to causing a lot of issues.
I agree.
Open-ended effects or unlimited effects of any kind are always the ones that create the largest potential for problems.
The likelihood that they WILL (vs. that they MIGHT) depends on the DM and the players, how tightly rules are enforced, and whether actions have consequences in the game world. The potential for cheese, however, is going to be there.
Selective spell suffers from the lack of a single word ("instantaneous") that would resolve most of its issues. It would then basically do the same thing as a homebrew feat James used to use in his home campaign did called "Foesmiter" - let you exclude allies from your boom spells and their ilk. As written, it's available pretty early on and can create a lot of weirdness with in-place spell effects.
[BTW, I should say that the feat I'm not keen on is Reach Spell.]
On rarity:
I think the monk-speed unlimited issue is vastly less likely to create an issue, given that it is a (potential/theoretical) ability that is impossible to access for 99.999X% of characters/creatures. It's much harder to monkey with, as it has a pretty steep prerequisite: Being a 20th level monk or having one in your party. Compare it to selective spell, which you could pick up and get heavy use out of in the single-digit levels.
No post-Dungeon era Paizo APs or modules have even approached 20th level. Most gameplay market research data indicate that players don't reach 20th level. With the exception of the Whispering Tyrant and perhaps a handful of others, I don't recall seeing any NPCs in Golarion with 20 class levels in ANYTHING, much less monk.
Not to say it couldn't exist, but to suggest it's a campaign-altering trainwreck that DMs must be on their guard (per the title of the thread) against seems a little far-fetched, given that it is literally impossible for it to come up unless the DM intentionally creates a 20th level monk or a PC plays a monk up through 20 levels with no multiclassing. It literally cannot happen unless DM or players make it happen, and if they do everyone should see it coming a mile away.
Does simple rarity balance an ability that's inherently unbalanced? No. It just moots its relevance in the extreme majority of campaigns because it will never come up.
Can the ability be max-exploited? Sure. You have to work a lot harder at it than some folks might suggest. Its inherently flexible nature lends itself to the possibility of abuse, especially if you allow that flexibility to "leak" into your interpretation of its effects in the game.
If you like the pinnacle of monkdom being a super-fast zoomy guy, and you have an intention of taking the campaign to 20th level, then you have to enforce the rules strictly. Also, think about what you feel is appropriate for 20th level characters to be able to do. Compare the possibilities to things that 20th level characters already CAN do.
Then see how you want to play it and whether you think it's a good fit. Maybe it will be, maybe not. By all means, if you like the idea use it and if you don't like the idea then don't. If you think it's nutty as a fruitcake, then use the RAI instead.
Find your Rule of Cool and follow it!
Reach Spell.
Though it's cool it does seem somewhat powerful as it bypasses the main danger in Touch Attack spells, namely, the squishy caster having to be in melee range.
The first time one of my players broke it out on me the whole table just went wha....?
It's not overpowered but it does change tactics as the caster no longer has to get close.
Reach Spell.
Though it's cool it does seem somewhat powerful as it bypasses the main danger in Touch Attack spells, namely, the squishy caster having to be in melee range.
The first time one of my players broke it out on me the whole table just went wha....?
It's not overpowered but it does change tactics as the caster no longer has to get close.
I specifically advise my players to not memorize touch spells, and if they do, don't be surprised when I hand them a new character sheet. It is not that touch spells are bad, but being close enough to touch is.
edit:druid and clerics can disregard that message.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Reach Spell.
Though it's cool it does seem somewhat powerful as it bypasses the main danger in Touch Attack spells, namely, the squishy caster having to be in melee range.
The first time one of my players broke it out on me the whole table just went wha....?
It's not overpowered but it does change tactics as the caster no longer has to get close.
The biggest thing is the touch/ranged touch conversion for 1 spell level. Cheaper than the 3.5 Reach Spell (+2 level adj) which only did that.
The PF Reach Spell doesn't only do that, though. I don't like that, as written, it entirely moots Enlarge Spell, and not just by a little; instead of doubling range, it QUADRUPLES range. And it's scalable, so you can stack it for continuing multipliers (i.e., for a 2-level increase, you increase the range of a close range spell by SIXTEEN TIMES.
Bleah sez I!
I'd probably house rule it that it's a +2 level adj for each bump in range category.
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And as for not the right sets of eyes, well, it almost feels to me like what's needed here is a white hat hacker for rules. A min-maxing, cheat-happy, loophole-exploiting weasel... but one who knows he (or she) is just that, and wants to put their "skills" to good use, making the final published product better for everyone
We prefer the term optimizers...
Honestly tho, most people who have the skill to game the system rarely do in actual games. It really isn't very fun to play rocket tag in an RPG. So basically anyone who was a regular contributor the to old wizards CO board can do this and it has been suggested MANY times that these people should be tapped in the editing process of rules.