On another note, I don't need a PHD in mother goose in order to comment on it. Religious texts and Mother goose have the same level of validity, Dr. ;-)Before you make a comment, ask yourself "Can this hurt or offend someone?" if the answer is yes, then whatever your beliefs or non-beliefs are, ask yourself "Is this really a good idea to hurt or offend?"
If your beliefs or non-beliefs in something or the non-existence of something are such that you feel you MUST educate fellow gamers with your perceived truth, then ask yourself, "Would educating them be worth my time, or would doing so really have any significance on the cosmic level".
Thank you for listening. I'll be here all week. :P
Religion is based on faith and nothing else. Validity is a logical measure. Religion is not. My intent was not to offend. Believe what you want, just don't call it fact. Call it faith. Thanks.
Edit; Also i'm constantly offended by christians, so If they get a little riled when i disagree than so be it.
p.s. And I'm done with this thread. Religious and polotical discussions never end well Much less with the anonymity of the internet. This thread really should have stayed dead. No such luck.
As a christian myself (and apparently one of the people expected to be offended), I'd like to say I wasn't offended by Tiny Coffee Golem's post, and I don't think he deserves any flak for it either, so let's be cool and accept the different view. EDIT: He made a valid point as well. It might possibly seem like a crack at religious faith, but it is a bold statement that forces us to reflect on what our faith means, and how we as people accept it. It is good to be challenged in this way. It allows you to challenge yourself to think.
Also, my apologies for any offenses I or my fellow christians have placed before you. People aren't perfect, and we all make mistakes.
"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster."
Sadly, we've had to spend a good deal of our time fighting religious monsters, both from within our own country (see all the resistance towards repealing don't ask don't tell) and other countries (9/11).
I can't point fingers to condemn the hate some have towards Christians. God knows that I spent a majority of my life wrestling with that same hatred within myself. I believe these people need help to free themselves of that hate. I believe that these people need more exposure to Christians of the non-nut bar variety.
Heheh, I prefer the ones with chewy nougat and peanut butter myself. :P
I hear ya though. I've seen it myself. If you condemn, shun, or hate others, it is almost inevitable that you will become just like what you disdain the most. I've seen good people become bitter, and people with good lives turn them sour trying to rebuke evil. Forgiveness, patience, and acceptance lead to an overall better life in most cases.
At least, such has been my experience as a christian who has suffered at the hands of christians (as a hobbyist, I have been on the receiving end of flak coming against comic books, pokemon, D&D, magic, movies, video games, and other things that some people get on soapboxes about). All I can say is I'm sorry for those who have been hurt, and I apologize to anyone else who has too. Sometimes people make mistakes.
If your therapist is of the view that fantasy is inherently satanic and contrary to Christianity, ask him what he thinks of C. S. Lewis, a renowned and well-respected theologian of the last century, and writer of the Chronicles of Narnia series.
Also, ask him whether he's reviewed his professional ethics guidebook recently.
I would be curious to know if the OP still plays Pathfinder a year after the original post.Yep - the OP's last post was in mid July 2011 - See
I am really glad that the OP is still playing and was able to navigate this little episode. Rock on, Mageye!
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I think that's it though. Respect is what dies with the anonymity of the internet.Respect dies long before it reaches the internet.
I would sig this... if I did sigs and they were allowed on this website....
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Since the thread necro, this thread has consisted of comments intended to spur a religious flamewar, some attempts to put out those flames, and one or two posters responding to an already-resolved issue from a year ago.
I hope they decide to lock this thread. No good will come of it. Self-flagged. Please don't add to the problem.
EDIT: Smurf.
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Please don't add to the problem.
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Don't worry, god won't get mad because he doesn't exist.
Just play the game and have fun!
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Please don't add to the problem.
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Mageye is fabricating this scenario to bash Christianity.
Aretas is fabricating this scenario to bash anyone who isn't a Christian!
WARNING:
Its ok to bash Christianity & conservative principles on these boards. Say anything in defense and your liable to get your post removed by the moderator.
I'm Catholic, and I find your position here to be a touch ridiculous.
You're not being persecuted for your religion. Stop looking for new and exciting ways to become an internet-martyr.
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Guys if we all work together we can find the thread's phylactery and put an end to its reign of terror...
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Games can be an addiction, And there are a few types of people and there are groups that do cause harm. So That are a few questions i would ask. Does reading playing or other interaction with gaming Interference with any part of your real life. Work, or relationship are the most common that i have seen. Do you have other interest> If pathfinder is the only thing in your life then i would also say that you should give it up and try to involve yourself in other activity's. I am autistic and have fond that there are a lot of really bad therapist and a lot of really good one. So if you find him helpful then you should do what he ask. but you should also spend some time seeing if your therapist know anything about pathfinder.
The last thing I would look at is your Gameing group. Haveing a good group can almost be like a small group. You become a famly. But a bad group can mkae life more difficult. I started playing when the first red book came out. I had been playing for a few years, i had my halfling, My normal group stopped showing up at the game store so i got invited to play in another group.
Well the Dwarf and the assassination where raping the party's centar! They where all chaotic evil as fare as a could tell! IT worked out because my halfling(hobbit) rescued the centaur and was the only thief in the party so was the only one that could get out of the room that we started in. But that is not the kind of think that you should expose any one two. I was 8 at the time! Your party matter's
Well the Dwarf and the assassination where raping the party's centar! They where all chaotic evil as fare as a could tell! IT worked out because my halfling(hobbit) rescued the centaur and was the only thief in the party so was the only one that could get out of the room that we started in. But that is not the kind of think that you should expose any one two. I was 8 at the time! Your party matter's
Holy crap dude! T.T
Good on you for being the good-guy here. :O
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I'm not trying to be an ass with this, but I want to mention something important to me. I'm a pagan, and I play Pathfinder. If any group should be offended it's us as Pathfinder sometimes encroaches on our real-world religious beliefs. Some of those names for demon princes and arch-devils came from ancient mythology. Christianity took them and turned them into the bad guys of their religion.
But the truth is, I'm not offended because I can separate my fantasy from reality. What irks me sometimes is how much our society will bend over to make something palatable for Christians. So what if it's not? Should every mass media product out there be made for them? I'm not saying Pathfinder should be in any way offensive to Christians. I'm saying, should we give them special treatment? I just don't want to go back to the days or re-naming things in the Monster Manual to appease a certain segment that will trash the game no matter what you do.
I'm not trying to be an ass with this, but I want to mention something important to me. I'm a pagan, and I play Pathfinder. If any group should be offended it's us as Pathfinder sometimes encroaches on our real-world religious beliefs. Some of those names for demon princes and arch-devils came from ancient mythology. Christianity took them and turned them into the bad guys of their religion.
But the truth is, I'm not offended because I can separate my fantasy from reality. What irks me sometimes is how much our society will bend over to make something palatable for Christians. So what if it's not? Should every mass media product out there be made for them? I'm not saying Pathfinder should be in any way offensive to Christians. I'm saying, should we give them special treatment? I just don't want to go back to the days or re-naming things in the Monster Manual to appease a certain segment that will trash the game no matter what you do.
I have to agree with you here, James Wilber aka The Magus. Honestly the amount of fuss some people (particularly religious crusaders) will create for something that quite simply does not concern them or their beliefs is pretty astounding.
Honestly, I don't think we need or deserve any sort of special treatment, anymore than a whining child deserves a cookie after being scolded for peeing on the floor at Walmart. :P
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I'm not offended because I can separate my fantasy from reality.
The reason I see many of my fellow Christians struggle with the question of whether or not they should play a game like Pathfinder, is because The Bible tells us to avoid the appearance of evil and that when we feel certain "bad" things within our hearts it is the same as if we'd actually done them (I have drastically simplified these concepts, but I think the point remains)...
Since D&D (and by extension, Pathfinder) is seen as evil by many churches and their pastors/priests/ministers/etc. this sometimes becomes an issue to those that attend these churches. It is especially a struggle to many new believers as they learn how to walk in their newfound faith...
I see the game as a tool. Tools by themselves are neither good nor evil; it is the person using them that bears the responsibility of how they get used...
I'm a pagan...
...I can separate my fantasy from reality.
Saying that you belong to a religious faction with no evidence for its beliefs, yet you claim that you can separate fantasy from reality.
The irony is striking, isn't it? ;-)My guess is that this is some of what Tiny Coffee Golem was getting at that Aretas took affront to earlier.
I'm a pagan, and I play Pathfinder. If any group should be offended it's us as Pathfinder sometimes encroaches on our real-world religious beliefs. Some of those names for demon princes and arch-devils came from ancient mythology. Christianity took them and turned them into the bad guys of their religion.
OM(G>1).
Did you just take umbrage at the portrayal of Lamashtu in Pathfinder because it offends your religious beliefs?
Can I be your friend? I want to worship Bablyonian demons. Is there a test? Who do I pay? Do we get many bullet-proof holidays? How many of us are there?! Seriously, man, Pathfinder #5, page 68. Sign. Me. Up.
I'm not offended because I can separate my fantasy from reality.The reason I see many of my fellow Christians struggle with the question of whether or not they should play a game like Pathfinder, is because The Bible tells us to avoid the appearance of evil and that when we feel certain "bad" things within our hearts it is the same as if we'd actually done them (I have drastically simplified these concepts, but I think the point remains)...
Since D&D (and by extension, Pathfinder) is seen as evil by many churches and their pastors/priests/ministers/etc. this sometimes becomes an issue to those that attend these churches. It is especially a struggle to many new believers as they learn how to walk in their newfound faith...
I see the game as a tool. Tools by themselves are neither good nor evil; it is the person using them that bears the responsibility of how they get used...
Aren't we (Christians) supposed to attempt to emulate Jesus Christ? Jesus Christ never shied away from the appearance of evil. He called out demons, and hung out with the dregs of society who were considered evil and unclean by the religious institutions of his time. Wouldn't it suffice to say that while we should not indulge in evil, to shy away from its appearance, to pretend it is not there, or to avoid it rather than confront and learn from it is actually directly contrary to this ideal?
I think many of us have it backwards. We have become exactly what Jesus taught us not to be. Jesus was a man of the broken, the downtrodden, and the lost, and was rebuked by those considered moral, devout, and conservative. We must be doing something wrong, and it should be obvious to us, but it only seems to be obvious to those who are on the outside looking in.
Just some thoughts. :o
I highly recommend anyone who has to ask if they should play doesn't. Problem solved.
I'm a pagan, and I play Pathfinder. If any group should be offended it's us as Pathfinder sometimes encroaches on our real-world religious beliefs. Some of those names for demon princes and arch-devils came from ancient mythology. Christianity took them and turned them into the bad guys of their religion.OMG>1.
Did you just take umbrage at the portrayal of Lamashtu in Pathfinder because it offends your religious beliefs?
Can I be your friend? I want to worship Bablyonian demons. Is there a test? Who do I pay? Do we get many bullet-proof holidays? How many of us are there?! Seriously, man, Pathfinder #5, page 68. Sign. Me. Up.
*falls over laughing* Nice. You'd love my goddess Limotae in my homebrew game. She's this advanced lillend who basically acted as a prophet for a group of mortals during a very dark time in the world, and taught them how to live together in society. One of the main things is she's very much into "free love" and such. Her temples have lots of sacred prostitutes (those existed in RL history too, it's an interesting read). Her Paladins are a sight to behold too.
Then again, I have another goddess named Keiga who created surfing, and is said to surf through hurricanes on the back of sea serpents called Leviathans. :)
Saying that you belong to a religious faction with no evidence for its beliefs, yet you claim that you can separate fantasy from reality.
The irony is striking, isn't it? ;-)
My guess is that this is some of what Tiny Coffee Golem was getting at that Aretas took affront to earlier.
As a religious person myself, I find great humor in this statement. Good show ol' GentleGiant. ^.^
*falls over laughing* Nice. You'd love my goddess Limotae in my homebrew game. She's this advanced lillend who basically acted as a prophet for a group of mortals during a very dark time in the world, and taught them how to live together in society. One of the main things is she's very much into "free love" and such. Her temples have lots of sacred prostitutes (those existed in RL history too, it's an interesting read). Her Paladins are a sight to behold too.
Page 68 wouldn't prostitute herself to me. She would rip my heart out and eat it. And that's what I like about her.
I'm a pagan...
...I can separate my fantasy from reality.Saying that you belong to a religious faction with no evidence for its beliefs, yet you claim that you can separate fantasy from reality.
The irony is striking, isn't it? ;-)
Not ironic at all.
Religion, at it's core, isn't about making factual claims of what is real as much as it is about making claims of how we should live our lives.
Making claims about how to life your lives based on unprovable stories (some might say fantasy) then asking if one should play a game which openly calls itself fantasy.
Sounds pretty ironic to me.
I'm a pagan...
...I can separate my fantasy from reality.Saying that you belong to a religious faction with no evidence for its beliefs, yet you claim that you can separate fantasy from reality.
The irony is striking, isn't it? ;-)
Not ironic at all.
Religion, at it's core, isn't about making factual claims of what is real as much as it is about making claims of how we should live our lives.
I wish you'd tell that to more religious people. It also flies in the face of people claiming that certain supernatural beings and happenings exist.
But the part of how "we" should live our lives seems to be true, though, at least in the sense that religious people like to decide how everyone should live their lives, just look at the OP.Also, these guidelines for how to live are based on nonfactual claims, so we're back to the irony again.
I have to admit that all I did is read the Question, and someone has probably already said this, but...
No#1 I love Jesus
I DM a Church Youth Group, and I DM for a Church Men's group. In fact My wife is a Pastor at the church and the worship pastor plays and DM's my adult group.
No#2 Pathfinder is not evil, it is a game.
No#3 I love Jesus, and I enjoy Pathfinder RPG
Problem solved...
I think it's ignorant to believe that a story must be true for it to teach us anything of value. Parables and fables, for example, have long been tools to teach proper behaviour.
Making claims about how to life your lives based on unprovable stories (some might say fantasy) then asking if one should play a game which openly calls itself fantasy.Sounds pretty ironic to me.
When did I say that? I didn't say that. I learn all kinds of things from untrue (fantasy) stories all the time. I can simply tell the difference.
Though it is very enlightened of you to admit the "untrueness" of certain things that I cant mention lest I be called offensive despite the accuracy of the statement.
But the part of how "we" should live our lives seems to be true, though, at least in the sense that religious people like to decide how everyone should live their lives, .*laughs* Your slams against religion here seem awfully intent on telling other people how to live their lives.
Seriously, I hate to be in this position. I have every reason to hate Christianity (having grown up in a very Religious Reich church as a gay kid which, in a very real way, made my life a living hell far beyond what most of you have ever experienced or can ever imagine). But, many of the posts in this thread by the anti-religious are just so profoundly bigotted and ignorant that it just cries out to point those comments out for what they are.
It's a natural re-action to the action of being told how to live one's life by the religious in our society.
It's the classic scenario of whether it's intolerance to be intolerant of intolerance.I'm not really anti-religious, I, like every atheist I've interacted with, just want to be left alone and for the religious to keep their religion to themselves and not try to force it upon others (including kids who don't know better and can't fend for themselves) and society.
The idea of "militant" atheists is a reaction to the influence religious groups has on society and politics.
I react when people who are supposed to help others and have trusted positions, like the therapist in the OP, use their own superstition to force such behaviour on their patients/clients.
I learn all kinds of things from untrue (fantasy) stories all the time. I can simply tell the difference.
The point is that it doesn't matter whether the stories are true or not in order for them to be informative/educational.
And that's good, because, when you come right down to it, humans have no way to know what the truth is (science doesn't teach it, religion doesn't teach it, etc.). Religion only asks that a person have faith in something because belief is valuable in itself (forex. believing that people are basically good influences our lives in a very different manner than believing that people are basically evil - regardless of the fact that we can't prove either of these positions to be true).
Have you actually read any of these socalled "good" stories? Not exactly all sunshine and butterflies all of them. But that's often a problem with many religions, they use the "good" parts to advertise and then use the "bad" parts to prop up their bigotry against several groups. That is, if they don't just try and hush down the "bad" parts with all kinds of nonsense (oh that part? That's no longer applicable to today's society... now the rest here, from the same book, now that's applicable!?!)
And some things from the stories we actually CAN prove to be true or not.Also, why is belief in itself valuable?
I can point to lots of examples of belief that you would probably agree are not valuable at all.
What you need to come to understand is that not all religious people are like the people who've been so aggressive against atheists. Further, those people who use religion to discriminate against and attack others, (based on my experience and observation) are fundamentally sick/pathological and religion is just an opportunity to give them -something- to use as a platform for discrimination. Religion isn't the cause of their action any more than handguns are the cause for murder.
Ahh, the No True Scotsman fallacy. Sorry, doesn't fly.
What you need to come to understand is that not all religious people are like the people who've been so aggressive against atheists. Further, those people who use religion to discriminate against and attack others, (based on my experience and observation) are fundamentally sick/pathological and religion is just an opportunity to give them -something- to use as a platform for discrimination. Religion isn't the cause of their action any more than handguns are the cause for murder.Ahh, the No True Scotsman fallacy. Sorry, doesn't fly.Don't be a hypocrit, you're position is "No true Scotsman".
All I'm saying is that not all religious people are like the people who've been so aggressive against atheists. That's not "No true Scotsman".
I never claimed that every religious person have. I know a lot of religious people who don't try to push their views and "morals" on society. This section of the religious are, however, very, very silent when the outspoken parts try to do so.
You, however, claimed that all those who used religion to discriminate against and attack others are "fundamentally sick/pathological and religion is just an opportunity to give them -something- to use as a platform for discrimination."THAT is a No True Scotsman fallacy.
Can we talk about worshipping Lamashtu, please?